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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Thriller Scripts  ›  Repercussions (was Birth of a Psycho) Moderators: bert
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  Author    Repercussions (was Birth of a Psycho)  (currently 13288 views)
Don
Posted: April 3rd, 2013, 4:35pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Repercussions by Dustin Bowcott - Thriller - A factory worker's life is destroyed after a home invasion and, after finding no justice from the law, he teams up with an unlikely ally to take revenge. 100 pages - pdf, format


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Revision History (1 edits)
Don  -  March 25th, 2014, 5:34pm
revised draft
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Felipe
Posted: April 3rd, 2013, 4:42pm Report to Moderator
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FFADE IN:

Done. =D


'Artist' is not a term you should use to refer to yourself. Let others, and your work, do it for you.
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Forgive
Posted: April 3rd, 2013, 5:10pm Report to Moderator
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Okay Dustin, it's each to his own reviewing style - I think that was fairly well established on the 'constructive feedback' thread, and although you stated that giving a 1-10 is an insult to the writer, unfortunately I do 1-10's.

All IMO, so ignore it at your leisure.

Beginning with the title page:

No need to include the title in quotes. It's a title; nobody's saying it.

You can drop the 'screenplay' and just write 'By' - I know it's a screenplay.

No need to repeat the title on the top of the first page, and again, no need for quotes.

FFADE IN:
- should be:
FADE IN:
- please get this right.

First description line was a mouthful. I'll like to see a more succinct image here.

"... the usual trappings of the deprived."
Visuals, please. What are these trappings? What am I seeing?

"... is dressed in his well-worn, oily overalls as ..."
You can cut this down a little. We guess the overalls are his as he's wearing them, and even if they are someone else's, at this stage we don't care.

"A group of yobs are hanging around outside, looking for trouble."
Again, I'm not getting the visual here. What are they doing that means they are looking for trouble?

It looks like you're triple spacing your mini-slugs?

"No children play in the park anymore, now it is occupied by miniature adults that
sit around smoking weed and sniffing solvents. "
Horrible. IMO, of course. If there's a couple of guys glue-sniffing, then state it, don't go for stuff that isn't actually occurring (no children play).

Awful. Seriously. No major problems with the grammar that I could see, I grant you that, but the rest is just plain weak. IMO.
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Grandma Bear
Posted: April 3rd, 2013, 6:07pm Report to Moderator
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Since you caused some stir in the other thread, I decided to crack this one open. Just out of curiosity.

I don't have time to read the whole thing because I'm busy with deadlines, but from what I noticed on the couple of pages I read is that you are too descriptive for a screenplay. You can probably shave 15-20 pages off this script by just streamlining your descriptions. As you probably know, screenplays work best when fewer words are used. This is friendly advice, btw. Not trying to cause trouble in any way.

I'm sure Jeff will read it as a return favor. He'll point out plenty for you.

Good Luck.

Cheers!  


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Dreamscale
Posted: April 3rd, 2013, 7:02pm Report to Moderator
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I read the first few pages.  I'm thinking about what to say and how exactly to say it...but...Pia is 100% correct.  Way overwritten.

I'll be back, cuz I like to help, and hopefully, that's what SS is all about.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 12:34pm Report to Moderator
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OK, Dustin, I slept on it and decided to just cut to the chase...no BS, no sugar coating, just some facts that will hopefully help you out going forward.

First of all, as you're hopefully aware, committing mistakes on your very first words on Page 1 is a huge problem, and if I chose to listen to your own advice about not even commenting on scripts that start out so problematic, I would have closed yours before I even read the opening Slug.

But that wouldn't be cool, especially since you read a feature of mine.

You definitely do not want your title repeated on top of Page 1.

I don't know how it's possible to misspell "FADE IN", as your software should automatically insert that for you - which leads me to wonder what kind of software you're using, as your margins look to be way off.

Just eyeballing the first five pages (before reading a single word), I can tell this is extremely dense and overwritten.

You've got 3 passages of 5 lines.  As I always say, don't EVER go over 4 lines.  Break up your passages based on thoughts, shots, etc.  Don't have multiple ideas or shots in the same passage.  If you'd like more on this, let me know and I'll give you the long version.

You've got a crazy amount of Mini Slugs being used.  I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, but it doesn't "look" good, nor does it read well.  And, it's a big space waster.

Let's look more closely...

Page 1 - I see you're from the UK.  Your opening Slug must be a UK'ism, because I have no clue what it means.  "COUNCIL ESTATE"?  Is this like a neighborhood?

Your prose, although "nice" doesn't really work (for me) in a screenplay.  It's too flowery, too dense and detailed, but rather sparse in terms of being visual or providing visuals.  I'd recommend less words and more visuals.

Not sure why you CAPPED half of John's name on intro.  Always CAP a character's initial intro.

Your first Mini Slug is a good example to look at.  I don't see the need for this at all.  But, this may be based on you trying to provide too much detail, or "show" too much action, that isn't necessary.  It's as if you want a camera to follow John along as he walks, and IMO, that's not a very engaging way to start your script.

"yobs" - no clue what this is supposed to be.  So, I looked it up and it's a British slang.  Slangs really shouldn't be used in a screenplay, as far as I'm concerned.

You've got some very passive structure going on with your yobs, which does not read well at all.  You've also got single and plural tenses intermingled in this area, which isn't cool, either.

The whole 5 line passage about the playground is unnecessary unless it's going to come into play later.

Page 2 -  Your opening Mini Slug here is not good at all, as it reads just terribly.

Another 5 line passage that is way overwritten and most likely unnecessary.  Hey, I understand you're trying to set the stage here for what this area is like.  I get that and I understand completely, but when the actual writing betrays, it becomes more apparent what is and what isn't necessary...or helping your cause.

Here's a great example of something that you probably don't realize is a mistake.  Check out your passage beginning with, "John continues along the street..."

It's a 4 liner that reads as if it's all 1 continuous shot, culminating with him inserting his key into the front door lock.  Is that really necessary?  Is there any reason you'd want to show him "continuing" along the street, walking up his driveway, and "inserting the key" (what key is that, BTW?  There hasn't been any mention of any keys in his hand) into his front door?

Do you see where I'm going with this?  It's always a mistake to describe in any level of detail simple, assumed actions that will have to happen whether or not it's written or seen on film.  This is a classic example here.

Next Slug and passage are problems. John just walks in, so he has to be in the front entryway or whatever you want to call it.  Somehow, you intro his wife, Cynthia, who's in the kitchen cooking dinner, yet when she speaks, she's O.S.

Whenever you use a name or a word used as a name in dialogue, you want to set it off with a comma, or commas, if more dialogue follows.  Lots and lots of peeps can't seem to understand this.  It should read, "That you, Love?"  I recommend Capping it, but you don't have to.

Page 3 - OK, listen, we haven't been in the kitchen yet, even though Cynthia was somehow intro'd, so the stuff about "adding potatoes and vegetables to "the" plates, is brand new info to us and totally unnecessary again.  Why you'd want "Gravy." as a separate sentence, I have no idea.  Doesn't look good, doesn't read well, and this entire amount of detail is completely unnecessary.

Dustin, you know that you need to engage your reader early on.  How early on?  Well, you'll hear different things from different peeps, but let's say that in this case, we're on page 4 already and absolutely nothing of any interest has happened.  I'm totally tuning out, sorry to say.  The level of detail is overwhelming, but the amount of actual visual writing is very small.

Page 4 - orphan alert.  As is usually the case, there is no reason for this orphan's existence.

Page 5 - Another page has passed and I'm even more tuned out now, as the dialogue is going nowhere and there's no action taking place.

Your opening passage here has issues.  Not sure exactly what time it is or how much time has passed, but it's highly unlikely that anyone would have/could have smoked an ashtray's worth of joints.  Even 24/7 burners don't and can't smoke like that. You also end in another worthless orphan, because you included a sentence that should be on its own.

John plays X Box and smokes pot.  Not only not exciting, but it's enough for me to throw in the towel already.  Nothing going on.  Nothing interesting.  Nothing humorous.  Nothing special.

You have to engage your readers in some way at some point, before they tune out.  Engaging and/or unique dialogue could do that.  Cool characters can do that.  Intense action can do that.  Reread these opening 5 pages and see if you think you've managed to engage, in any way.

I don't mean to be harsh, Dustin.  I merely want to point out some areas that you may be able to improve. I hope I have done that and you understand what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. Hope it helps.

Welcome aboard the SS freighter. If I can be of more assistance, don't hesitate to ask.

Take care, man.
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DustinBowcot
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 4:30pm Report to Moderator
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I do have a producer looking at this and he said it is well paced. The burglary happens on page 6... which is the inciting incident. So before page 10. The first 5 pages are deliberately slow as a build up, although admittedly over wordy in the first few pages. That's been said a hundred times to me already... and I have changed that in more recent scripts. This is my first ever script. Despite its faults I have managed to garner interest.

That being said... I can't believe I typed double F on FADE IN. I don't use any screenwriting software. I use Open Office, it is free with Ubuntu. I also agree that perhaps I could delete the beginning and get straight into the burglary. I just wanted a bit of boredom before the shit hits the fan on page 6. After page 6 it really is a rollercoaster.

Thanks for your thoughts.
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DustinBowcot
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 4:33pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


First of all, as you're hopefully aware, committing mistakes on your very first words on Page 1 is a huge problem, and if I chose to listen to your own advice about not even commenting on scripts that start out so problematic, I would have closed yours before I even read the opening Slug.


I made a typo. I wouldn't close a script over a typo. i would close it over poor grammar. So that is your rule and not mine. Just so we're clear.
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DustinBowcot
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 5:22pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Forgive
Okay Dustin, it's each to his own reviewing style - I think that was fairly well established on the 'constructive feedback' thread, and although you stated that giving a 1-10 is an insult to the writer, unfortunately I do 1-10's.


Thanks.


Quoted from Forgive
All IMO, so ignore it at your leisure.

Beginning with the title page:

No need to include the title in quotes. It's a title; nobody's saying it.

You can drop the 'screenplay' and just write 'By' - I know it's a screenplay.

No need to repeat the title on the top of the first page, and again, no need for quotes.


All valid points.


Quoted from Forgive
FFADE IN:
- should be:
FADE IN:
- please get this right.


An obvious typo.


Quoted from Forgive
First description line was a mouthful. I'll like to see a more succinct image here.


Fair comment, this isn't the first time I've heard this.


Quoted from Forgive
"... the usual trappings of the deprived."
Visuals, please. What are these trappings? What am I seeing?


You don't know? You cannot visualise the usual trappings of the deprived? It's a way of describing a lot without using as many words to say it. I've given enough description already for a director, from my country, to get the idea... the usual trappings is where the Director can ad lib with his own flourishes. That sentence is merely in acknowledgment of that. Not the first time I've heard it said that it is wrong by amateur screenwriters though.


Quoted from Forgive
"... is dressed in his well-worn, oily overalls as ..."
You can cut this down a little. We guess the overalls are his as he's wearing them, and even if they are someone else's, at this stage we don't care.


Fair comment. Sometimes slang creeps into my writing.


Quoted from Forgive
"A group of yobs are hanging around outside, looking for trouble."
Again, I'm not getting the visual here. What are they doing that means they are looking for trouble?


The keyword there is LOOKING. They are looking for trouble. Looking threatening. Everybody in the UK should know what that means. I have no intention opf sending this to Hollywood.


Quoted from Forgive
It looks like you're triple spacing your mini-slugs?


That is correct format.


Quoted from Forgive
"No children play in the park anymore, now it is occupied by miniature adults that
sit around smoking weed and sniffing solvents. "
Horrible. IMO, of course. If there's a couple of guys glue-sniffing, then state it, don't go for stuff that isn't actually occurring (no children play).


ADmittedly, very prosey, and I wouldn't dream of doing anything like that now, even though it hasn't really done me any harm in regards to interest garnered as this is a specialised script for my country. Indie producers. I've got this thing circulating and there is interest in it. I think I've made a couple of good moves so hopefully I can come back with a win on this script soon. Features are such a commitment it's hard to get people to believe in the profitability of your story, as that is what it boils down to, luckily it doesn't matter about my prose-like first few pages, it really doesn't. believe it or not, most of the people I've given this script to are fine to read past the first five pages.


Quoted from Forgive
Awful. Seriously. No major problems with the grammar that I could see, I grant you that, but the rest is just plain weak. IMO.


Yes well thanks for your review on page 1. Very kind of you.

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Forgive
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 7:25pm Report to Moderator
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Let The Sky Fall

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Hey Dustin. Gave this a bit of a further read, seeing as you're a fellow Brit. That's kinda understandable - the Brit market is quite different from the US job, and Brits are happier to accept  slow paced material.

It doesn't turn into a roller-coaster later on, although there's potential for some well-worked drama.

Glad to hear you have some interest from some indie producers, but having worked with some myself, having a bunch of canon-wavers queueing for it doesn't mean that it's either a good script, or that it'll be a good film.

And you use the term 'interest'. And that sounds like re-write territory, so I'd be asking them what they want to up it from interest to must-have.

Some of this reminded me of Shane Meadow's 'Dead Man's Shoes', which I'm sure you're aware of, but this doesn't contain the same ingenuity of that piece.

One of my main concerns is just with John - he's too placid, and just takes everything on the chin - spends too much time 'cowering' and just going 'no, no, no, don't hurt anyone'. I'd like to see this guy a bit more active and aggressive, or characterful. I know he turns later on, but his character arc isn't right for him to turn into a psycho - I just don't think he's well enough draw for that. Besides, it's in danger of looking like a bleak Brit version of 'Falling Down'.

Recall the scene in DMS, where Richard kills Herbie? It's that kind of thing that I feel this needs.

As it is, Jason may as well be the protag - he's a sight more interesting than dull John.

Exclude the language from this, and it feels like an episode of Eastenders.

Pages 30-36 I struggling ... scenes are too long, and I'm wondering where we're going?

Okay - I'm out at p45. Gave it a go, but John's crying again, and having a cup of tea. I think if he's going to do anything, then he needs to start doing it by now. This guy's just hard to identify with - stuff happens to him, and he's just getting washed over - even the policewoman's almost offering him a hug. I'm just left thinking - what's Jason up to? Can't we go with him instead?

Sorry Dustin - this needs more to drive it, and John's just got to get himself a set o' balls. And yeah - I know you're going to say 'he gets them later',but that's not going to wash with this set-up.
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LC
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 7:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Let's look more closely...Page 1 - I see you're from the UK.  Your opening Slug must be a UK'ism, because I have no clue what it means.  "COUNCIL ESTATE"?  Is this like a neighborhood?
"yobs" - no clue what this is supposed to be.  So, I looked it up and it's a British slang.  Slangs really shouldn't be used in a screenplay, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure Dustin needs no help in responding to the comments you've made Jeff, but this comment almost made me 'spit the dummy'.  

You're not actually advocating slang shouldn't be used in dialogue, are you? As for it belonging in description/action lines I think there's a place for it there too to a degree.

Vernacular, colloquialisms, slang, belong very much in screenplays imh. They add so much in terms of colour and character and are indicative to the particular region of a country. It doesn't always belong, ironically I'm about to justify why I didn't use more 'Strine' in my 'short' - but that's just cause it didn't belong in that particular script.

Some U.S. slang I won't get immediately, but just as you did Jeff, I'll 'google' it. I just don't think 'no slang in screenplays' is the most sage advice to be passing on to (aspiring) writers.

And, as Dustin said this screenplay is not targeted to the U.S. market.

Libby


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Forgive
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 7:53pm Report to Moderator
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Slang's fine in dialogue, but generally not in your action lines.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 7:57pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Forgive
Slang's fine in dialogue, but generally not in your action lines.


Exactly.

Anything and everything is fine in dialogue, but action/description?  No...definitely not.

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LC
Posted: April 4th, 2013, 9:59pm Report to Moderator
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I could debate the point as far as 'slang' goes, generally perhaps, but even in description and actions lines it will occur unwittingly sometimes because a lot of us are from different cultures and we all have varying terms of reference and different colloquialisms.

As far as regional word usage i.e., 'Council Estate' commonly called ('Housing Commission Flats' in my neck of the woods) I'd encourage members of SS,  to be a little less knee-jerk in their responses to words or phrases they're not familiar with and embrace the diversity. We're writers afterall.

I'd like a dollar for every time I've read a 'reviewer' come straight out and say emphatically, 'that's not a word' or 'that's not the correct spelling', when actually it is...from where they hail from. This commonly occurs re: U.S./Aus/U.K. Just a thought. I'll leave it at that.



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DustinBowcot
Posted: April 5th, 2013, 2:14am Report to Moderator
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Here's what the director/producer guy I'm dealing with had to say:


Quoted Text


Hi Dustin, I've read your script "Birth of Psycho"  and the treatment of "Little Robin". I like both of them very much, specially "Birth of Psycho". It has brilliant dialogues and a dark humour. It is also very well  structured. Certainly there are some adjustments to be done in a proper time but I think that for the moment we can work with the current drafts.
As you are the author and the copyright holder I need your permission to forward both projects to my producer partners and Head of Drama contacts. In case they get interested we are going to get back to you and make you an offer for a proper agreement and acquisition.



I think I like his review better

I also have this rolling around with some guys that make gangster films in my country. I'm learning a lot about how things get done around here... and believe it or not it rarely matters about prose-like sentences in the first few ESTABLISHING pages. So long as they can read past page 5 of course... I know it's a struggle for some. They do say many writers suffer from ADHD.

I'm not stupid enough to think I only need to try one outlet at a time. This is a seller in my country and the title alone will make money from DVD sales. I have no issues making adjustments... but I reckon they will be more stroy-based and not anyhting to do with the first couple of prose-like establishing pages. Although to be fair too, I could see them being dropped for favour of getting right into the burglary... and perhaps even the middle will be shortened to make the protag pro-active, faster.
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