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Repercussions by Dustin Bowcott - Thriller - A factory worker's life is destroyed after a home invasion and, after finding no justice from the law, he teams up with an unlikely ally to take revenge. 100 pages - pdf, format
Okay Dustin, it's each to his own reviewing style - I think that was fairly well established on the 'constructive feedback' thread, and although you stated that giving a 1-10 is an insult to the writer, unfortunately I do 1-10's.
All IMO, so ignore it at your leisure.
Beginning with the title page:
No need to include the title in quotes. It's a title; nobody's saying it.
You can drop the 'screenplay' and just write 'By' - I know it's a screenplay.
No need to repeat the title on the top of the first page, and again, no need for quotes.
FFADE IN: - should be: FADE IN: - please get this right.
First description line was a mouthful. I'll like to see a more succinct image here.
"... the usual trappings of the deprived." Visuals, please. What are these trappings? What am I seeing?
"... is dressed in his well-worn, oily overalls as ..." You can cut this down a little. We guess the overalls are his as he's wearing them, and even if they are someone else's, at this stage we don't care.
"A group of yobs are hanging around outside, looking for trouble." Again, I'm not getting the visual here. What are they doing that means they are looking for trouble?
It looks like you're triple spacing your mini-slugs?
"No children play in the park anymore, now it is occupied by miniature adults that sit around smoking weed and sniffing solvents. " Horrible. IMO, of course. If there's a couple of guys glue-sniffing, then state it, don't go for stuff that isn't actually occurring (no children play).
Awful. Seriously. No major problems with the grammar that I could see, I grant you that, but the rest is just plain weak. IMO.
Since you caused some stir in the other thread, I decided to crack this one open. Just out of curiosity.
I don't have time to read the whole thing because I'm busy with deadlines, but from what I noticed on the couple of pages I read is that you are too descriptive for a screenplay. You can probably shave 15-20 pages off this script by just streamlining your descriptions. As you probably know, screenplays work best when fewer words are used. This is friendly advice, btw. Not trying to cause trouble in any way.
I'm sure Jeff will read it as a return favor. He'll point out plenty for you.
OK, Dustin, I slept on it and decided to just cut to the chase...no BS, no sugar coating, just some facts that will hopefully help you out going forward.
First of all, as you're hopefully aware, committing mistakes on your very first words on Page 1 is a huge problem, and if I chose to listen to your own advice about not even commenting on scripts that start out so problematic, I would have closed yours before I even read the opening Slug.
But that wouldn't be cool, especially since you read a feature of mine.
You definitely do not want your title repeated on top of Page 1.
I don't know how it's possible to misspell "FADE IN", as your software should automatically insert that for you - which leads me to wonder what kind of software you're using, as your margins look to be way off.
Just eyeballing the first five pages (before reading a single word), I can tell this is extremely dense and overwritten.
You've got 3 passages of 5 lines. As I always say, don't EVER go over 4 lines. Break up your passages based on thoughts, shots, etc. Don't have multiple ideas or shots in the same passage. If you'd like more on this, let me know and I'll give you the long version.
You've got a crazy amount of Mini Slugs being used. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, but it doesn't "look" good, nor does it read well. And, it's a big space waster.
Let's look more closely...
Page 1 - I see you're from the UK. Your opening Slug must be a UK'ism, because I have no clue what it means. "COUNCIL ESTATE"? Is this like a neighborhood?
Your prose, although "nice" doesn't really work (for me) in a screenplay. It's too flowery, too dense and detailed, but rather sparse in terms of being visual or providing visuals. I'd recommend less words and more visuals.
Not sure why you CAPPED half of John's name on intro. Always CAP a character's initial intro.
Your first Mini Slug is a good example to look at. I don't see the need for this at all. But, this may be based on you trying to provide too much detail, or "show" too much action, that isn't necessary. It's as if you want a camera to follow John along as he walks, and IMO, that's not a very engaging way to start your script.
"yobs" - no clue what this is supposed to be. So, I looked it up and it's a British slang. Slangs really shouldn't be used in a screenplay, as far as I'm concerned.
You've got some very passive structure going on with your yobs, which does not read well at all. You've also got single and plural tenses intermingled in this area, which isn't cool, either.
The whole 5 line passage about the playground is unnecessary unless it's going to come into play later.
Page 2 - Your opening Mini Slug here is not good at all, as it reads just terribly.
Another 5 line passage that is way overwritten and most likely unnecessary. Hey, I understand you're trying to set the stage here for what this area is like. I get that and I understand completely, but when the actual writing betrays, it becomes more apparent what is and what isn't necessary...or helping your cause.
Here's a great example of something that you probably don't realize is a mistake. Check out your passage beginning with, "John continues along the street..."
It's a 4 liner that reads as if it's all 1 continuous shot, culminating with him inserting his key into the front door lock. Is that really necessary? Is there any reason you'd want to show him "continuing" along the street, walking up his driveway, and "inserting the key" (what key is that, BTW? There hasn't been any mention of any keys in his hand) into his front door?
Do you see where I'm going with this? It's always a mistake to describe in any level of detail simple, assumed actions that will have to happen whether or not it's written or seen on film. This is a classic example here.
Next Slug and passage are problems. John just walks in, so he has to be in the front entryway or whatever you want to call it. Somehow, you intro his wife, Cynthia, who's in the kitchen cooking dinner, yet when she speaks, she's O.S.
Whenever you use a name or a word used as a name in dialogue, you want to set it off with a comma, or commas, if more dialogue follows. Lots and lots of peeps can't seem to understand this. It should read, "That you, Love?" I recommend Capping it, but you don't have to.
Page 3 - OK, listen, we haven't been in the kitchen yet, even though Cynthia was somehow intro'd, so the stuff about "adding potatoes and vegetables to "the" plates, is brand new info to us and totally unnecessary again. Why you'd want "Gravy." as a separate sentence, I have no idea. Doesn't look good, doesn't read well, and this entire amount of detail is completely unnecessary.
Dustin, you know that you need to engage your reader early on. How early on? Well, you'll hear different things from different peeps, but let's say that in this case, we're on page 4 already and absolutely nothing of any interest has happened. I'm totally tuning out, sorry to say. The level of detail is overwhelming, but the amount of actual visual writing is very small.
Page 4 - orphan alert. As is usually the case, there is no reason for this orphan's existence.
Page 5 - Another page has passed and I'm even more tuned out now, as the dialogue is going nowhere and there's no action taking place.
Your opening passage here has issues. Not sure exactly what time it is or how much time has passed, but it's highly unlikely that anyone would have/could have smoked an ashtray's worth of joints. Even 24/7 burners don't and can't smoke like that. You also end in another worthless orphan, because you included a sentence that should be on its own.
John plays X Box and smokes pot. Not only not exciting, but it's enough for me to throw in the towel already. Nothing going on. Nothing interesting. Nothing humorous. Nothing special.
You have to engage your readers in some way at some point, before they tune out. Engaging and/or unique dialogue could do that. Cool characters can do that. Intense action can do that. Reread these opening 5 pages and see if you think you've managed to engage, in any way.
I don't mean to be harsh, Dustin. I merely want to point out some areas that you may be able to improve. I hope I have done that and you understand what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. Hope it helps.
Welcome aboard the SS freighter. If I can be of more assistance, don't hesitate to ask.
I do have a producer looking at this and he said it is well paced. The burglary happens on page 6... which is the inciting incident. So before page 10. The first 5 pages are deliberately slow as a build up, although admittedly over wordy in the first few pages. That's been said a hundred times to me already... and I have changed that in more recent scripts. This is my first ever script. Despite its faults I have managed to garner interest.
That being said... I can't believe I typed double F on FADE IN. I don't use any screenwriting software. I use Open Office, it is free with Ubuntu. I also agree that perhaps I could delete the beginning and get straight into the burglary. I just wanted a bit of boredom before the shit hits the fan on page 6. After page 6 it really is a rollercoaster.
First of all, as you're hopefully aware, committing mistakes on your very first words on Page 1 is a huge problem, and if I chose to listen to your own advice about not even commenting on scripts that start out so problematic, I would have closed yours before I even read the opening Slug.
I made a typo. I wouldn't close a script over a typo. i would close it over poor grammar. So that is your rule and not mine. Just so we're clear.
Okay Dustin, it's each to his own reviewing style - I think that was fairly well established on the 'constructive feedback' thread, and although you stated that giving a 1-10 is an insult to the writer, unfortunately I do 1-10's.
"... the usual trappings of the deprived." Visuals, please. What are these trappings? What am I seeing?
You don't know? You cannot visualise the usual trappings of the deprived? It's a way of describing a lot without using as many words to say it. I've given enough description already for a director, from my country, to get the idea... the usual trappings is where the Director can ad lib with his own flourishes. That sentence is merely in acknowledgment of that. Not the first time I've heard it said that it is wrong by amateur screenwriters though.
"... is dressed in his well-worn, oily overalls as ..." You can cut this down a little. We guess the overalls are his as he's wearing them, and even if they are someone else's, at this stage we don't care.
Fair comment. Sometimes slang creeps into my writing.
"A group of yobs are hanging around outside, looking for trouble." Again, I'm not getting the visual here. What are they doing that means they are looking for trouble?
The keyword there is LOOKING. They are looking for trouble. Looking threatening. Everybody in the UK should know what that means. I have no intention opf sending this to Hollywood.
"No children play in the park anymore, now it is occupied by miniature adults that sit around smoking weed and sniffing solvents. " Horrible. IMO, of course. If there's a couple of guys glue-sniffing, then state it, don't go for stuff that isn't actually occurring (no children play).
ADmittedly, very prosey, and I wouldn't dream of doing anything like that now, even though it hasn't really done me any harm in regards to interest garnered as this is a specialised script for my country. Indie producers. I've got this thing circulating and there is interest in it. I think I've made a couple of good moves so hopefully I can come back with a win on this script soon. Features are such a commitment it's hard to get people to believe in the profitability of your story, as that is what it boils down to, luckily it doesn't matter about my prose-like first few pages, it really doesn't. believe it or not, most of the people I've given this script to are fine to read past the first five pages.
Hey Dustin. Gave this a bit of a further read, seeing as you're a fellow Brit. That's kinda understandable - the Brit market is quite different from the US job, and Brits are happier to accept slow paced material.
It doesn't turn into a roller-coaster later on, although there's potential for some well-worked drama.
Glad to hear you have some interest from some indie producers, but having worked with some myself, having a bunch of canon-wavers queueing for it doesn't mean that it's either a good script, or that it'll be a good film.
And you use the term 'interest'. And that sounds like re-write territory, so I'd be asking them what they want to up it from interest to must-have.
Some of this reminded me of Shane Meadow's 'Dead Man's Shoes', which I'm sure you're aware of, but this doesn't contain the same ingenuity of that piece.
One of my main concerns is just with John - he's too placid, and just takes everything on the chin - spends too much time 'cowering' and just going 'no, no, no, don't hurt anyone'. I'd like to see this guy a bit more active and aggressive, or characterful. I know he turns later on, but his character arc isn't right for him to turn into a psycho - I just don't think he's well enough draw for that. Besides, it's in danger of looking like a bleak Brit version of 'Falling Down'.
Recall the scene in DMS, where Richard kills Herbie? It's that kind of thing that I feel this needs.
As it is, Jason may as well be the protag - he's a sight more interesting than dull John.
Exclude the language from this, and it feels like an episode of Eastenders.
Pages 30-36 I struggling ... scenes are too long, and I'm wondering where we're going?
Okay - I'm out at p45. Gave it a go, but John's crying again, and having a cup of tea. I think if he's going to do anything, then he needs to start doing it by now. This guy's just hard to identify with - stuff happens to him, and he's just getting washed over - even the policewoman's almost offering him a hug. I'm just left thinking - what's Jason up to? Can't we go with him instead?
Sorry Dustin - this needs more to drive it, and John's just got to get himself a set o' balls. And yeah - I know you're going to say 'he gets them later',but that's not going to wash with this set-up.
Let's look more closely...Page 1 - I see you're from the UK. Your opening Slug must be a UK'ism, because I have no clue what it means. "COUNCIL ESTATE"? Is this like a neighborhood? "yobs" - no clue what this is supposed to be. So, I looked it up and it's a British slang. Slangs really shouldn't be used in a screenplay, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure Dustin needs no help in responding to the comments you've made Jeff, but this comment almost made me 'spit the dummy'.
You're not actually advocating slang shouldn't be used in dialogue, are you? As for it belonging in description/action lines I think there's a place for it there too to a degree.
Vernacular, colloquialisms, slang, belong very much in screenplays imh. They add so much in terms of colour and character and are indicative to the particular region of a country. It doesn't always belong, ironically I'm about to justify why I didn't use more 'Strine' in my 'short' - but that's just cause it didn't belong in that particular script.
Some U.S. slang I won't get immediately, but just as you did Jeff, I'll 'google' it. I just don't think 'no slang in screenplays' is the most sage advice to be passing on to (aspiring) writers.
And, as Dustin said this screenplay is not targeted to the U.S. market.
I could debate the point as far as 'slang' goes, generally perhaps, but even in description and actions lines it will occur unwittingly sometimes because a lot of us are from different cultures and we all have varying terms of reference and different colloquialisms.
As far as regional word usage i.e., 'Council Estate' commonly called ('Housing Commission Flats' in my neck of the woods) I'd encourage members of SS, to be a little less knee-jerk in their responses to words or phrases they're not familiar with and embrace the diversity. We're writers afterall.
I'd like a dollar for every time I've read a 'reviewer' come straight out and say emphatically, 'that's not a word' or 'that's not the correct spelling', when actually it is...from where they hail from. This commonly occurs re: U.S./Aus/U.K. Just a thought. I'll leave it at that.
Here's what the director/producer guy I'm dealing with had to say:
Quoted Text
Hi Dustin, I've read your script "Birth of Psycho" and the treatment of "Little Robin". I like both of them very much, specially "Birth of Psycho". It has brilliant dialogues and a dark humour. It is also very well structured. Certainly there are some adjustments to be done in a proper time but I think that for the moment we can work with the current drafts. As you are the author and the copyright holder I need your permission to forward both projects to my producer partners and Head of Drama contacts. In case they get interested we are going to get back to you and make you an offer for a proper agreement and acquisition.
I think I like his review better
I also have this rolling around with some guys that make gangster films in my country. I'm learning a lot about how things get done around here... and believe it or not it rarely matters about prose-like sentences in the first few ESTABLISHING pages. So long as they can read past page 5 of course... I know it's a struggle for some. They do say many writers suffer from ADHD.
I'm not stupid enough to think I only need to try one outlet at a time. This is a seller in my country and the title alone will make money from DVD sales. I have no issues making adjustments... but I reckon they will be more stroy-based and not anyhting to do with the first couple of prose-like establishing pages. Although to be fair too, I could see them being dropped for favour of getting right into the burglary... and perhaps even the middle will be shortened to make the protag pro-active, faster.
Anything and everything is fine in dialogue, but action/description? No...definitely not.
Everybody in the UK knows what a Council Estate is. So yes it is perfectly fine to write that.
You used a word not even in the dictionary in your script. A specialised slang word for whitewater rafting. Not even country-based slang. I had to look it up with two keywords. I gave you the correct advice to add a following line of description to prevent people having to do what I did as not everybody would understand what it means.
The difference with me is that everybody that I am marketing this script to and every viewer in my country that the film is for will KNOW what a council estate is right away.
Council Estate isn't slang. And it sounds like the word Dreamscale used might have been jargon rather than slang -- which should also be avoided in scripts.
I think Libby makes an interesting - and valid - point about the insistence on this board for criticisms of "slang". Michael is right on by saying that Council Estate is not slang. If anything, the US variation for this is slang, seeing as US English is a mere branch of the English language.
Haven't read the script, but I agree with Dustin that the title would potentially thrive in the DVD market. There's a whole market dedicated to this type of material in the UK (Fall of the Essex Boys, etc) that will get a limited (if at all) release and will rely on the DVD sales for revenue. Typically the budget will go anywhere from 100k to 500k.
The slang word was'yobbo' or 'yob' which is more than familiar to Aussie & UK residents and therefore to the market Dustin's script is aimed at.
The venacular or colloquial usage is a different thing entirely. And imh, we shouldn't be afraid of using words when we know the market we are targeting will be more than familiar with these words. It's just mildly annoying when things like this are focused on when google is at the disposal of readers. Thanks for the backup Andrew.
Glad to hear you have some interest from some indie producers, but having worked with some myself, having a bunch of canon-wavers queueing for it doesn't mean that it's either a good script, or that it'll be a good film.
Thank you. I'm far from stupid. I'm also streetwise. I have a good idea of how things go already. It actually has little to do with how a script is written, unless it's obviously bad of course.
And you use the term 'interest'. And that sounds like re-write territory, so I'd be asking them what they want to up it from interest to must-have.
I'm quite prepared to rewrite whatever. I'm a fast worker. I could rewrite that script in 7 days if I pushed myself. As it stands it has garnered interest already, so it has potential. It's the story that counts and it is there and well written. I'll agree that there are holes that need filling, that will be the case with any screenplay. I have no problem collaborating with a producer, director or even another writer if they want to bring a fresh voice onto the team. Making a film is a team effort and not everybody is going to like everything in a script. It is my job to listen to opinions and make the relevant changes. Which I can do easily, once I know what they are.
Some of this reminded me of Shane Meadow's 'Dead Man's Shoes', which I'm sure you're aware of, but this doesn't contain the same ingenuity of that piece.
One of my main concerns is just with John - he's too placid, and just takes everything on the chin - spends too much time 'cowering' and just going 'no, no, no, don't hurt anyone'. I'd like to see this guy a bit more active and aggressive, or characterful. I know he turns later on, but his character arc isn't right for him to turn into a psycho - I just don't think he's well enough draw for that. Besides, it's in danger of looking like a bleak Brit version of 'Falling Down'.
His character arc is perfect for him to turn into a psycho. You obviously haven't met very many. Psycho's are all cowards. They pick victims. That means they target what they consider to be prey. Just like all of the animal kingdom, hunters take out prey weaker than them. The kid that shoots a bunch of school children... bullied at school, a loner, etc etc. Same old stroy. Why are people introverted? Fear. Fear = scared. Scared = cowardice.
His house is robbed and he is held hostage over night. They show him how much of a coward he is... and three guys in your home will do that easily, no matter how heroic you feel you are. I'm not writing a Hollywood piece of bulls***. Not on this occasion anyway. Three guys have him held in his own home and they are waiting there all night for the banks to open in the morning. They smoke crack, torture you both physically and psychologically, then rape your wife. They then rob your life savings the next morning and are gone. poof. What could you do about it? Remember, this isn't Hollywood..
Recall the scene in DMS, where Richard kills Herbie? It's that kind of thing that I feel this needs.
I liked that film.. and I think the scene where he breaks into the house and does silly things to them. It was a while ago since I saw that, but doesn't he dye the guy's hair while he is asleep? I didn't like that piece of theatrics. The rest of the film was good. I think the theatrics harmed the film... and I suspect it was only there to make him more pro-active while he travelled through the psychosis scenes. Purely because of this thing that says the protag has to be pro-active earlier. That's hollywood creeping into real drama, imo. This is very much a Brit flick. i did write that in the description but it never made it into the thread.
As it is, Jason may as well be the protag - he's a sight more interesting than dull John.
That was the idea... although I'm also inclined to agree that I may have taken it too far. Milked it too much. Something that is easily remedied on a rewrite. That for me is no issue whatsoever.
Exclude the language from this, and it feels like an episode of Eastenders.
That, sir is an idiotic statement and you know it. I'll have to start watching that 'family show' now that I know it is full of drug taking, robbery, murder and rape. Who'd have thunk it, lol.
Pages 30-36 I struggling ... scenes are too long, and I'm wondering where we're going?
That is where his wife has been placed into hospital and he starts suffering from delusions. Which one could argue is actually the turning point for the Protag'. He starts to turn and then BAM, the cops catch the robbers. Which is supposed to happen too in a story. Admittedly though the scenes could be too long, which is an easy fix.
Okay - I'm out at p45. Gave it a go, but John's crying again, and having a cup of tea. I think if he's going to do anything, then he needs to start doing it by now. This guy's just hard to identify with - stuff happens to him, and he's just getting washed over - even the policewoman's almost offering him a hug. I'm just left thinking - what's Jason up to? Can't we go with him instead?
Here is an excerpt from page 45:
JOHN That's it, you fucking coward. Hide. I'm not afraid of you anymore.
John sits down on the settee with the baseball bat across his lap.
Where is he crying? Indeed it is a turning point as he is no longer afraid.
Sorry Dustin - this needs more to drive it, and John's just got to get himself a set o' balls. And yeah - I know you're going to say 'he gets them later',but that's not going to wash with this set-up.
I'm sorry to hear that this isn't exciting enough for you and sounds like a mere episode of Eastenders. People smoking crack on screen, gang raping a guy's wife while forcing him to watch. I actually deleted a scene where they forced him to give his own wife oral after they'd raped her. I deleted it as too graphic, perhaps I should have left it in now, just to get it to that over 18 standard, LOL. Then the psychosis, chopping up bodies and just generally murdering people. There was I thinking that those types of family shows picked on topical issues like teen pregnancy.
Haven't read the script, but I agree with Dustin that the title would potentially thrive in the DVD market. There's a whole market dedicated to this type of material in the UK (Fall of the Essex Boys, etc) that will get a limited (if at all) release and will rely on the DVD sales for revenue. Typically the budget will go anywhere from 100k to 500k.
Yep, males 20-40 eat this stuff up all day. I reckon this film could be made cheaper. There are guys making films for 10K. Although I think this film could get made for 50-60k, a similar budget to Dead Man's Shoes mentioned earlier. I could write out certain scenes no problem. Like cut the hospital scenes to just one. Even cut out the work place scenes altogether too. The dog isn't really needed either.
I just feel that these are things I can iron out depending on budget. To be honest I just want a writing credit. I've got a million ideas so losing one cheap isn't going to affect me at all.
If you can get it made for 50-60k, get it done and with the right exposure and distro in place, it could get 'in the black', and boom you got an angle to get bigger budgets (and more exposure) for those other ideas. Lot of it is luck, but fortune favours the bold. I'd definitely say that if you're going to get this made for that type of budget, you've got leverage for some form of producing credit, which will open more doors down the line - esepcially if the project makes any money.
Seems a few of you have some kind of hard on for being from wherever you are and take issue to anyone not form there who tells you your word choice doesn't work for the masses.
I wish I could just ignore all this, but I'm sorry, I can't.
If you're describing a certain sport, there's going to be words that non players won't know - words that are specific to said sport.
But, why anyone would want to use words, slangs, etc. that no one other than those who live in the area, or a similar area would know or even understand, is beyond me.
Dustin, I'm a little bummed actually how you mostly completely disregarded my feedback. As I said and always say, I'm just trying to help. Maybe you don't need any help. I don't know, but I do know I'm glad I stopped after 5 pages and didn't waste anymore of either of our time.
Maybe LC can offer you some praise and write her feedback using all sorts of slangs and colloquialisms.
Seems a few of you have some kind of hard on for being from wherever you are and take issue to anyone not form there who tells you your word choice doesn't work for the masses.
The language used works for the whole country this film is marketed for. So it does work for the masses. This is a Brit Flick for the people in Britain. It will never ever be sent to a US producer, unless they make Brit Flicks, which is always a possibility too.
Quoted from Dreamscale
I wish I could just ignore all this, but I'm sorry, I can't.
All what?
Quoted from Dreamscale
If you're describing a certain sport, there's going to be words that non players won't know - words that are specific to said sport.
I am talking about the word Boof that you used. That is a specific word to whitewater rafters or canoers, whatever they are. Got nothing to do with code words passed around players to represent set pieces.
Quoted from Dreamscale
But, why anyone would want to use words, slangs, etc. that no one other than those who live in the area, or a similar area would know or even understand, is beyond me.
Or a similar area... like a whole country? LOL. It is beyond you?
Quoted from Dreamscale
Dustin, I'm a little bummed actually how you mostly completely disregarded my feedback. As I said and always say, I'm just trying to help. Maybe you don't need any help. I don't know, but I do know I'm glad I stopped after 5 pages and didn't waste anymore of either of our time.
You may well have been bummed, whatever you do in your spare time is up to you. However, I don't think that you should advertise it on boards for screenwriting. I've heard your feedback before from other people... but I haven't changed it because it never seems to be a problem for anyone aside from angry amateur screenwriters like yourself.
Quoted from Dreamscale
Maybe LC can offer you some praise and write her feedback using all sorts of slangs and colloquialisms.
The only slang phrase I have used outside of dialogue was the extra 'his' in one particular sentence. It's how we speak around here. We'd say he's dressed in his overalls. There isn't actually any need for the extra word though.
You may well have been bummed, whatever you do in your spare time is up to you. However, I don't think that you should advertise it on boards for screenwriting.
I've heard your feedback before from other people... but I haven't changed it because it never seems to be a problem for anyone aside from angry amateur screenwriters like yourself.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean, Dustin. Can you elaborate, please?
My point is that I am bummed you didn't even thank me or address the numerous issues I brought, trying to help.
Am I an angry Amateur Screenwriter? Is that a pot shot...from a yob? Funny.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean, Dustin. Can you elaborate, please?
I'm just saying that I don't think this is the right place to tell everybody you've been bummed. I'm sure if you hit google that you could find forums for that. I'm not sure if it's legal though... have the catholic church legalised it now?
My point is that I am bummed. You didn't even thank me or address the numerous issues I brought, trying to help.
I have no need of addressing any issues at this stage of the script. I already know that as I have been told by professionals that would possibly be willing to risk money in this venture. So i will edit if needs be. I'm writing quite a lot at the moment. I have two high concept hollywood films to complete... these written in American, so easy for you to understand. I haven't got time to go back through old scripts, particularly my first script when it has already garnered interest.
This film is simple mathematics. I've written it that way. Minimum budget and the right ingredients to appeal to the male 20-40 age group... that watch more DVD's than anybody else. Although the kiddy market seems quite huge now too. I know my kids go to bed every night with a film. So low budget, make a profit. Simple maths. I pluralised that deliberately by the way... it's how we do it here.
I think what Jeff meant, is that when you take your time to read and comment on someone's script posted here, you'd expect at least a Thank You. Even if you didn't agree with the comments.
Now you have told us that you're not planning to rewrite this script based on any comments you get here and that you already have people interested in this script. I have to wonder why you even posted it here?
Dude, WTF are you talking about? You sniffing some of that shit, hitting the crack pipe?
Maybe this is an attempt at some British humor that I'm not getting? Hopefully Andrew and LC think it's funny.
If it helps, I didn't actually find it funny!
Jeff, I certainly wasn't directing my comments at you - I think you know by now that I will just say things outright! To be fair, Aussies are by far the worst for 'correcting' the English on their own language. Anyone who's English and has backpacked across Australia will attest to that and have a story. At the end of the day, it's all fun and games.
I think what Jeff meant, is that when you take your time to read and comment on someone's script posted here, you'd expect at least a Thank You. Even if you didn't agree with the comments.
I'll have to address all of his comments individually, although I believe I have already done that.
Now you have told us that you're not planning to rewrite this script based on any comments you get here and that you already have people interested in this script. I have to wonder why you even posted it here?
OK...got it now...I'm a little slow sometimes. Thanks, Simon.
Andrew, no, we're cool. I hear ya.
Dustin, you don't need to address my comments if you don't want to. As I said, just throwing some things out that I thought could help - if they didn't help, ignore them and go on your merry way.
As for the UKisms, be they slang or be they actual, correct words, I was just saying that I had no idea what they meant or were. For those who easily understand them, fantastic.
Sorry Jeff, but in Brit slang, 'being bummed' means having anal sex. Yeah. It's that weak.
Really? I found it quite ironic considering he was complaining about not not using language the masses can understand and then uses a word like that himself. It wasn't meant to be funny... aside from in an ironic sense. Don't tell me you can't see the irony?
Dustin, you don't need to address my comments if you don't want to.
Well, I can see that it really bothers you. So I'll go through your points and tell you "well done" when you've done something right... how about that?
I don't usually do public reviews anymore, so I probably should not make an exception. What's more, the writer does not seem to want reviews, but simply to post his script. By the way, is there a way to do that here? Post it in a locked thread or something?
Anyway, I followed some of the argument, and discarding good sense, took a peak at the script. I've read the first 12 pages, but before I get to comments on that, I should be up front that Dustin has come off in the thread here as somewhat arrogant. All of us writers defend our work, and it takes a thick skin, and all of us have skin that could use some toughening. But I thought Dustin should have been a little more appreciative of the reviews, even if he disagreed with them. Common courtesy if nothing else.
That said, I have to say that in my opinion there is nothing at all wrong with the writing here. And I sense that some piling on might be in play based on prior discussions which took place in other threads. Judged against other amateur scripts, the writing is actually quite good.
Let's take a look at the slang. I don't know what a yob is, but I can figure it out immediately from the description of the scene and characters. So the word works fine and even good since we don't have to digest the usual words like 'thug'.
As far as the opening slug, again, I was not sure what to picture, but if this is written for a British market, so what. It's my problem. More importantly, in the subsequent description, I know that it's basically similar to a projects here, or public housing. Something close to that. So nothing in that should be seen as a problem.
Judged on its own terms, the script's first 12 pages were fairly effective in that we got a sense of the time and place, the neighborhood, and the location and characters of the home invasion.
If the writer were looking for suggestions on how to possibly improve, here are some ideas. Through 12 pages, we don't quite have a strong sense of the protagonist, which I assume is John. We start to get a sense that this is a guy whose daily struggle to survive has starched him of much of his energy and vigor, and who will ultimately have to recapture it in order to save himself and his wife. My guess is that by the end of the story, he has become kind of a new man, or at least more like his old self, so in a sense this home invasion has been a boon to him.
The problem is that, through 12 pages at least, his character is neither interesting yet, nor relatable. And he should at least be one or the other in order to capture the audience.
The turning point of the opening sequence comes in page 6 when the gang invades the home. The story felt like it was just buying time for a couple of pages before that, almost like the writer was trying to avoid reaching that plot point too early. There's smoking weed, Xbox playing, more weed, urinating, then finally snuggling. A story should be more interesting than someone's routine before bed. But that means there is opportunity for the writer to do more with those pages. Perhaps add some conflict or color.
I'm not sure what's going on with the home invasion because I only had time for 12 pages. Almost has a Clockwork Orange feel, but I don't know if the aggressors will be main characters or not. It's reasonably effective at building tension and feels authentic enough, but would be much more enhanced if we cared more about John.
And I'll conclude by being repetitive with hopes of emphasis: John needs to be either relatable or interesting for us to care. He can be both, but he must be one. By interesting I mean a really memorable, distinctive character, a compelling and entertaining one. And since John falls far short of that, extra effort must be made to make him relatable. It's not enough to make him just a working stiff slob. Maybe he has a problem or a goal we relate to. Something strong enough to move us to a degree. When those bad guys come through the door, we have to really care what happens to John.
These are my insignificant opinions, Dustin. Do with them what you will, and good luck with the project. I hope in the future you will hold some gratitude to guys like Jeff and Simon who take a fine tool to your script. You don't have to agree with everything, but there will be plenty of useful nuggets in their reviews. Best of luck.
I don't usually do public reviews anymore, so I probably should not make an exception. What's more, the writer does not seem to want reviews, but simply to post his script. By the way, is there a way to do that here? Post it in a locked thread or something?
Anyway, I followed some of the argument, and discarding good sense, took a peak at the script. I've read the first 12 pages, but before I get to comments on that, I should be up front that Dustin has come off in the thread here as somewhat arrogant. All of us writers defend our work, and it takes a thick skin, and all of us have skin that could use some toughening. But I thought Dustin should have been a little more appreciative of the reviews, even if he disagreed with them. Common courtesy if nothing else.
That said, I have to say that in my opinion there is nothing at all wrong with the writing here. And I sense that some piling on might be in play based on prior discussions which took place in other threads. Judged against other amateur scripts, the writing is actually quite good.
Let's take a look at the slang. I don't know what a yob is, but I can figure it out immediately from the description of the scene and characters. So the word works fine and even good since we don't have to digest the usual words like 'thug'.
As far as the opening slug, again, I was not sure what to picture, but if this is written for a British market, so what. It's my problem. More importantly, in the subsequent description, I know that it's basically similar to a projects here, or public housing. Something close to that. So nothing in that should be seen as a problem.
Judged on its own terms, the script's first 12 pages were fairly effective in that we got a sense of the time and place, the neighborhood, and the location and characters of the home invasion.
If the writer were looking for suggestions on how to possibly improve, here are some ideas. Through 12 pages, we don't quite have a strong sense of the protagonist, which I assume is John. We start to get a sense that this is a guy whose daily struggle to survive has starched him of much of his energy and vigor, and who will ultimately have to recapture it in order to save himself and his wife. My guess is that by the end of the story, he has become kind of a new man, or at least more like his old self, so in a sense this home invasion has been a boon to him.
The problem is that, through 12 pages at least, his character is neither interesting yet, nor relatable. And he should at least be one or the other in order to capture the audience.
The turning point of the opening sequence comes in page 6 when the gang invades the home. The story felt like it was just buying time for a couple of pages before that, almost like the writer was trying to avoid reaching that plot point too early. There's smoking weed, Xbox playing, more weed, urinating, then finally snuggling. A story should be more interesting than someone's routine before bed. But that means there is opportunity for the writer to do more with those pages. Perhaps add some conflict or color.
I'm not sure what's going on with the home invasion because I only had time for 12 pages. Almost has a Clockwork Orange feel, but I don't know if the aggressors will be main characters or not. It's reasonably effective at building tension and feels authentic enough, but would be much more enhanced if we cared more about John.
And I'll conclude by being repetitive with hopes of emphasis: John needs to be either relatable or interesting for us to care. He can be both, but he must be one. By interesting I mean a really memorable, distinctive character, a compelling and entertaining one. And since John falls far short of that, extra effort must be made to make him relatable. It's not enough to make him just a working stiff slob. Maybe he has a problem or a goal we relate to. Something strong enough to move us to a degree. When those bad guys come through the door, we have to really care what happens to John.
These are my insignificant opinions, Dustin. Do with them what you will, and good luck with the project. I hope in the future you will hold some gratitude to guys like Jeff and Simon who take a fine tool to your script. You don't have to agree with everything, but there will be plenty of useful nuggets in their reviews. Best of luck.
An awful lot of good advice there. Sure, I haven't read the script, but it's sound advice for storytelling.
Especially this: "his character is neither interesting yet, nor relatable. And he should at least be one or the other in order to capture the audience." A good rule of thumb for any script.
I haven't read this screenplay and forgive me I don't think I'll find the time.
I have to say I'm quite disappointed in your behavior. You have every right to defend your screenplay but to do it in this sort of manner won't get you very far on SS. I've seen your comments from when you first arrived and I'll be honest... I'm beginning to regret suggesting SS as the place for you. Come on, man... I didn't invite you here so you could continue to trash the opinions of other writers. Don't make me regret it.
The least you could do is thank the people who take their time.
I don't usually do public reviews anymore, so I probably should not make an exception. What's more, the writer does not seem to want reviews, but simply to post his script. By the way, is there a way to do that here? Post it in a locked thread or something?
Anyway, I followed some of the argument, and discarding good sense, took a peak at the script. I've read the first 12 pages, but before I get to comments on that, I should be up front that Dustin has come off in the thread here as somewhat arrogant. All of us writers defend our work, and it takes a thick skin, and all of us have skin that could use some toughening. But I thought Dustin should have been a little more appreciative of the reviews, even if he disagreed with them. Common courtesy if nothing else.
That said, I have to say that in my opinion there is nothing at all wrong with the writing here. And I sense that some piling on might be in play based on prior discussions which took place in other threads. Judged against other amateur scripts, the writing is actually quite good.
Let's take a look at the slang. I don't know what a yob is, but I can figure it out immediately from the description of the scene and characters. So the word works fine and even good since we don't have to digest the usual words like 'thug'.
As far as the opening slug, again, I was not sure what to picture, but if this is written for a British market, so what. It's my problem. More importantly, in the subsequent description, I know that it's basically similar to a projects here, or public housing. Something close to that. So nothing in that should be seen as a problem.
Judged on its own terms, the script's first 12 pages were fairly effective in that we got a sense of the time and place, the neighborhood, and the location and characters of the home invasion.
If the writer were looking for suggestions on how to possibly improve, here are some ideas. Through 12 pages, we don't quite have a strong sense of the protagonist, which I assume is John. We start to get a sense that this is a guy whose daily struggle to survive has starched him of much of his energy and vigor, and who will ultimately have to recapture it in order to save himself and his wife. My guess is that by the end of the story, he has become kind of a new man, or at least more like his old self, so in a sense this home invasion has been a boon to him.
The problem is that, through 12 pages at least, his character is neither interesting yet, nor relatable. And he should at least be one or the other in order to capture the audience.
The turning point of the opening sequence comes in page 6 when the gang invades the home. The story felt like it was just buying time for a couple of pages before that, almost like the writer was trying to avoid reaching that plot point too early. There's smoking weed, Xbox playing, more weed, urinating, then finally snuggling. A story should be more interesting than someone's routine before bed. But that means there is opportunity for the writer to do more with those pages. Perhaps add some conflict or color.
I'm not sure what's going on with the home invasion because I only had time for 12 pages. Almost has a Clockwork Orange feel, but I don't know if the aggressors will be main characters or not. It's reasonably effective at building tension and feels authentic enough, but would be much more enhanced if we cared more about John.
And I'll conclude by being repetitive with hopes of emphasis: John needs to be either relatable or interesting for us to care. He can be both, but he must be one. By interesting I mean a really memorable, distinctive character, a compelling and entertaining one. And since John falls far short of that, extra effort must be made to make him relatable. It's not enough to make him just a working stiff slob. Maybe he has a problem or a goal we relate to. Something strong enough to move us to a degree. When those bad guys come through the door, we have to really care what happens to John.
These are my insignificant opinions, Dustin. Do with them what you will, and good luck with the project. I hope in the future you will hold some gratitude to guys like Jeff and Simon who take a fine tool to your script. You don't have to agree with everything, but there will be plenty of useful nuggets in their reviews. Best of luck.
I understand on needing to like the protag... You're suggesting like a simple 'save the cat' type of thing? Like give some money to a beggar... have the guy walk by a charity shop and strip naked, hand them all his clothes? LOL
Why isn't it possible to root for a protag because of all the bad shit that happens to him. To want him to win because he just never ever does? Isn't that an arc too?
I opened this script up last night and read the first ten pages. I was going to post some feedback, but decided to wait to see how the thread played out. What I feared might happen has happened.
I, like others, am not sure why this script is here if the author isn't looking for feedback from other writers in order to aid future rewrites.
Being from the UK and a resident of a Council Estate, there was a few things that I was going to bring up that I feel need addressing, in terms of the story 'world' and also some the behaviour of the characters that are introduced early on.
I was also going to mention a few things about the spec market in the UK, which may have also added some value.
However, since the author has producer interest, and seemingly their word is gospel, it doesn't seem that peer reviews are going to be of value. Which is a shame.
On a side note, Kevin's and Dreamscale's advice is actually very sound. No matter where this is set, and no matter what regional market this is aimed at, taking on board their comments might actually improve the story.
If the writer were looking for suggestions on how to possibly improve, here are some ideas. Through 12 pages, we don't quite have a strong sense of the protagonist, which I assume is John. We start to get a sense that this is a guy whose daily struggle to survive has starched him of much of his energy and vigor, and who will ultimately have to recapture it in order to save himself and his wife. My guess is that by the end of the story, he has become kind of a new man, or at least more like his old self, so in a sense this home invasion has been a boon to him.
There is a part two to this in mind. It is only really part of a bigger story. The story is about how a man is broken right down until he snaps.
The problem is that, through 12 pages at least, his character is neither interesting yet, nor relatable. And he should at least be one or the other in order to capture the audience.
Well at least i've taken the character from unlikable to not caring either way. I suppose there is a way I could make him more interesting or even relatable. Not really difficult.
The turning point of the opening sequence comes in page 6 when the gang invades the home. The story felt like it was just buying time for a couple of pages before that, almost like the writer was trying to avoid reaching that plot point too early. There's smoking weed, Xbox playing, more weed, urinating, then finally snuggling. A story should be more interesting than someone's routine before bed. But that means there is opportunity for the writer to do more with those pages. Perhaps add some conflict or color.
Yes I was savouring the moment. In earlier drafts the inciting incident didn't happen till page 10. It's a simple fix to make it more colourful. I already know how I can do that.
And I'll conclude by being repetitive with hopes of emphasis: John needs to be either relatable or interesting for us to care. He can be both, but he must be one. By interesting I mean a really memorable, distinctive character, a compelling and entertaining one. And since John falls far short of that, extra effort must be made to make him relatable. It's not enough to make him just a working stiff slob. Maybe he has a problem or a goal we relate to. Something strong enough to move us to a degree. When those bad guys come through the door, we have to really care what happens to John.
These are my insignificant opinions, Dustin. Do with them what you will, and good luck with the project. I hope in the future you will hold some gratitude to guys like Jeff and Simon who take a fine tool to your script. You don't have to agree with everything, but there will be plenty of useful nuggets in their reviews. Best of luck.
I only argued with one guy, not two... about using slang. It was a pointles nitpick.. as you pointed out, probably piled on from other threads.
I only argued with one guy, not two... about using slang. It was a pointles nitpick.. as you pointed out, probably piled on from other threads.
Dustin, if that "one guy" you're referring to is me, I'll have to respond again.
Pointless nitpick? Really? I told you straight up that I didn't know what the Hell either of the 2 of your slangs were supposed to be or mean. If I'm the only 1 who feels that way, then, you can and should disregard those notes. There was definitely no piling on from me, if that's what you're trying to say.
If you feel everything else I said is worthless advice or nitpicky BS, that's up to you, the writer, to decide. You seem to have a major problem admitting anything isn't perfect in this script of yours, which is obviously ludicrous.
You couldn't even provide a proper "FADE IN", for God's sake.
You intro'd a character that wasn't even O.S., yet you can't seem to find the humility to admit to there being any issues at all.
KevinL gave you pretty much glowing praise, yet you chose to mock the 1 area where he tried to provide some help.
You're a real piece of work, bro. A real tool, to put it bluntly. Unreal...but, I guess after thinking back to how you chose to intro yourself, we all should have seen this coming.
I have to agree with Jeff...I don't plan on wasting more time on you. Best of luck..."as best as your interests don't conflict with my interests".
Note:
I don't suspect your issue is lack of intelligence, Dustin. But your overly emotional reaction to criticism seems to separate you from the reasoning function of your mind.
Are you actually familiar with Save the Cat? Snyder, if I remember correctly, suggests we make a character "likable". I did not. I said that a character either be relatable(not a real word, I guess, but should be), or it should be interesting. It can be both, but it must be one or the other.
So your misinterpreting of my suggestion displays a real lack of understanding. More revealing, your first reaction was to attack me despite the fact that I had mostly positive things to say about your work and despite the fact that I took the time to read some and give you well considered remarks. Perhaps when you finally read your Snyder you can take your time with the topic of character flaw. Yours seems to be on open display. If you were a character, some writer would have done a fine job.
On the topic of relatable characters, you are suggesting that we can just pluck any guy off a bus and make bad stuff happen to him, and that's enough for the character to be relatable. Well, of course. You can write a script about some guy having knee surgery and we'll relate to it to a degree. But is that the kind of writing you aspire to?
Forgive me if I don't check back, I have too much to do.
It's a pity Dustin, as you've got some degree of talent, it's just that you're spitting in the face of people who are really willing to work with you.
Your production interest, I'm starting to feel, maybe either the BBC or related. I might be wrong, but that's my suspicion at the moment.
KevinL has given you some pretty sound advice, and I wish you'd listen to at least someone on these boards.
I can see what you've got against STC, and I agree that wouldn't work. But as I'm guessing you frequent the Writer's Room, or at least know about it, check out some of Abi Morgan's work (White Girl) and see she how she develops the early stages - well crafted, but not a hint of STC.
All I'm saying is start engaging with people - stop being a dick from the sticks, or you're going to give brummies a bad name.
Dustin, if that "one guy" you're referring to is me, I'll have to respond again.
Yeah it is you... and I thought you would.
Quoted from Dreamscale
Pointless nitpick? Really? I told you straight up that I didn't know what the Hell either of the 2 of your slangs were supposed to be or mean. If I'm the only 1 who feels that way, then, you can and should disregard those notes. There was definitely no piling on from me, if that's what you're trying to say.
It went on for several pages even after it was explained to you.
Quoted from Dreamscale
If you feel everything else I said is worthless advice or nitpicky BS, that's up to you, the writer, to decide. You seem to have a major problem admitting anything isn't perfect in this script of yours, which is obviously ludicrous.
I read your advice and even thanked you for it in reply number 6.
Quoted from Dreamscale
You couldn't even provide a proper "FADE IN", for God's sake.
A typo.
Quoted from Dreamscale
You intro'd a character that wasn't even O.S., yet you can't seem to find the humility to admit to there being any issues at all.
I have never once said that there are no issues. I said that ithe issues can be taken care of later.
Quoted from Dreamscale
KevinL gave you pretty much glowing praise, yet you chose to mock the 1 area where he tried to provide some help.
I made a joke about a guy taking off all his clothes and giving it to charity as just another example of saving the cat. I also thanked him for his advice.
Quoted from Dreamscale
You're a real piece of work, bro. A real tool, to put it bluntly. Unreal...but, I guess after thinking back to how you chose to intro yourself, we all should have seen this coming.
Luckily, for me, I have no need of stooping to your level and throwing outright insults. Simply saying thank you for your thoughts is not enough for yuou. You follow me through the thread asking me for what? What do you expect? A blow job? Bowing to your greatness? Oh thank you for deigning to read 5 pages... shall I go through your review and tackle every point? Oh yeah, we did that one.
I don't suspect your issue is lack of intelligence, Dustin. But your overly emotional reaction to criticism seems to separate you from the reasoning function of your mind.
Thank you so much for your completely unprofessional and unfounded psychological evaluation.
Are you actually familiar with Save the Cat? Snyder, if I remember correctly, suggests we make a character "likable". I did not. I said that a character either be relatable(not a real word, I guess, but should be), or it should be interesting. It can be both, but it must be one or the other.
Of course I am familiar... why else would I mention it? I am also familiar with Syd Field. From cover to cover. To relate to a character doesn't one have to like them first? The first building block to relating to a character is getting the audience to like them in some way. We all feel we can relate to nice people... generally speaking. I was actually agreeing with you and I followed up with a second post to emphasise that.
So your misinterpreting of my suggestion displays a real lack of understanding. More revealing, your first reaction was to attack me despite the fact that I had mostly positive things to say about your work and despite the fact that I took the time to read some and give you well considered remarks. Perhaps when you finally read your Snyder you can take your time with the topic of character flaw. Yours seems to be on open display. If you were a character, some writer would have done a fine job.
As stated previously, and as is proved in my follow up post to your comments, I understood perfectly what you meant. The failing is on your part... you're not as clever as you think you are.
On the topic of relatable characters, you are suggesting that we can just pluck any guy off a bus and make bad stuff happen to him, and that's enough for the character to be relatable. Well, of course. You can write a script about some guy having knee surgery and we'll relate to it to a degree. But is that the kind of writing you aspire to?
This isn't knee surgery. Bad analogy. Do you ever watch a program similar to Crimewatch? Where you get to see re-enactments of serious crimes. Do you feel for the people that get home invaded? The horror on their faces? the genuine fear those poor bastards are going through... have you ever experienced anything even remotely similar yourself? That is what i want to bring to the screen. That power, real emotion, real fear. Show what it is really like.
No it isn't what I want to do with all of my writing... but it is what i set out to do with this script.
Ok. Dudes -- First warning -- Keep this about the script and try not to include personal insults with your comments. You are all better people than to stoop that low.
But Dustin...seriously. Reread your post to Kevin. Almost every comment (or actually, every single comment) of yours is insulting, mean spirited, condescending, and downright looking to piss him off.
Do you really not see that? Honestly?
I have been called a cock before. I've also been called "The Cock", or "Mr. Cock". I don't have any problems with that.
I think it's pretty clear you don't either, any quite possibly, you enjoy it.
If I were you, I'd go read all my other scripts right now and make sure you spelled "FADE IN" correctly. You really want to try your best to not have any mistakes on your very first line.
OK, I'm bowing out for now. Happy Hour time for this Cock.
Do you ever watch a program similar to Crimewatch? Where you get to see re-enactments of serious crimes. Do you feel for the people that get home invaded? The horror on their faces? the genuine fear those poor bastards are going through... have you ever experienced anything even remotely similar yourself? That is what i want to bring to the screen. That power, real emotion, real fear. Show what it is really like.
The thing is, the reason people feel the fear from those reenactments is because we are also introduced to those people's lives before we see the crimes taking place. We are introduced to what is at stake. That's the reason we care.
They don't tell us about the people sitting around having a wank and playing xbox before getting robbed. They tell us about the family and things of that nature. At least on the american versions of those shows they do.
If you want us to feel the horror of those moments, show us what's at stake. If it's just playing video games and smoking, no one gives a shit.
'Artist' is not a term you should use to refer to yourself. Let others, and your work, do it for you.
Dustin, making a character relatable and making him likable are not at all the same thing.
Very often a character does something that does not make him likable, but the audience can emphasize with him.
Ferris Bueler is introduced to us pretending to be sick, lying to his parents, and winking at his pissed sister. There is no cat saving in that. However, we relate to it, as who hasn't pretended to be sick to get out of school?
And no, you were certainly not agreeing with me. Read your post again. You were being an ungrateful smarta$$. (Cornetto, I am not flaming, I am pointing out to this new member the error of his statements). Read the part about stripping naked and giving his clothes to charity. You were being ungrateful.
As for my psychological evaluation, I was generously searching for an explanation for what has been evident in your response. Other alternatives are less generous.
CORNETTO: out of curiosity, can a script be posted in a locked way so no reviews can be made? I am being sincere in that I think Dustin would have preferred that, and it's actually very reasonable if so. If he's shopping his script and does not plan on rewriting, he might not want reviews.
CORNETTO: out of curiosity, can a script be posted in a locked way so no reviews can be made? I am being sincere in that I think Dustin would have preferred that, and it's actually very reasonable if so. If he's shopping his script and does not plan on rewriting, he might not want reviews.
It's definitely possible technically for the script thread to be locked. The author would need to specifically request that the thread be locked. It's probably best that the request be made directly to Don.
Dustin must be sleeping with his boytoy. How cute...
Dude, hopefully you'll see the error of your ways and apologize to all. And, believe it or not, I actually do mean that. Read your posts back and see if you're not being King CockFace.
As I said, and again, I do mean this...I welcomed you in, and actually tried to stand up for your arrogant ways, as I know that new blood does bring new energy.
Read this script over and I think...and hope you'll see that you are far from free of criticism and help.
We do all want to help and that's what SS is all about. Get on the train and pull down the chain...
Ferris Bueler is introduced to us pretending to be sick, lying to his parents, and winking at his pissed sister. There is no cat saving in that. However, we relate to it, as who hasn't pretended to be sick to get out of school?
I still call that making the character instantly likable. People would say, I like this guy.... just as they may say I can relate to this guy. You like that part of the persons character because you can relate to it.
And no, you were certainly not agreeing with me. Read your post again. You were being an ungrateful smarta$$. (Cornetto, I am not flaming, I am pointing out to this new member the error of his statements). Read the part about stripping naked and giving his clothes to charity. You were being ungrateful.
I wasn't aware that I needed to be grateful. i don't need to read the part again as I have already explained it to you once before. It is you that needs to read it again, and again, and again. You seriously have poor comprehension skills.
As for my psychological evaluation, I was generously searching for an explanation for what has been evident in your response. Other alternatives are less generous.
You must have missed the words unprofessional and unfounded. I wasn't actually asking you a question.
CORNETTO: out of curiosity, can a script be posted in a locked way so no reviews can be made? I am being sincere in that I think Dustin would have preferred that, and it's actually very reasonable if so. If he's shopping his script and does not plan on rewriting, he might not want reviews.
Man... you need to learn to write better. Also practise your comprehension.
Dustin must be sleeping with his boytoy. How cute...
Dude, hopefully you'll see the error of your ways and apologize to all. And, believe it or not, I actually do mean that. Read your posts back and see if you're not being King CockFace.
As I said, and again, I do mean this...I welcomed you in, and actually tried to stand up for your arrogant ways, as I know that new blood does bring new energy.
Read this script over and I think...and hope you'll see that you are far from free of criticism and help.
We do all want to help and that's what SS is all about. Get on the train and pull down the chain...
Next idiotic post, I'm done with you for good.
I was done with you a while ago. The irony trip did it for me. That was fun... thanks for playing.
Dustin, you allow your unfounded arrogance and to get in the way of learning something. That's the real shame of it. Do you actually suppose you can learn nothing from anyone else?
Your original comment about having John, your protag, "save the cat" by stripping and donating his clothes to charity, aside from demonstrating your hyper sensitivity to criticism, demonstrates your shallow understanding of what it takes to make a character relatable.
For example, John, in those opening pages, might do something completely obnoxious, something that is very uncharitable. Maybe there is a beggar on the streets with a cup and a sign "will work for food" and John puts his half eaten sandwich in the cup. Some audiences could find this repulsive, but in theory other audiences could find it relatable.
As I said, in Ferris Bueler the kid is lying to his parents and pretending to be sick, not exactly save the cat stuff, but we relate to him for it.
In The Hangover, one of the characters is engaged and obsessed with pleasing his fiance, but under the influence of unplanned narcotics he marries a hooker. This is more of a situational predicament, but it still makes the character more relatable.
Now, you can have a story, as you do, where a regular guy just happens to have really bad stuff happen to him. But then what is the purpose of the first 6 pages of this story? If you are going to go that route, why not just have the guy walk through his bleak neighborhood, get home, we meet his wife, and then the intruders come in on page 2 or 3?
Those 6 pages are prime real estate where you should do 2 things: first, make John either more interesting or relatable, as I have said; second, work more purposely on the bond between the guy and his wife so that when sh!t happens there is more at stake.
As it is you waste that space with Xbox, urination, toking, etc. I am a fellow amateur, so don't take offense to this, but that is amateur use of those pages. Most of us are here to learn, and that's how feedback helps, should you ever become open to it.
Now let's talk about your confusion on where gratitude is proper. This thread is on YOUR script. When someone spends time on your script, and gives you remarks, whether you agree with those remarks or not, you begin with these two words: thank you.
Then if you wish to politely disagree, that's fine, and a little give and take on things can be helpful to everyone. That's how we learn.
Let me see things from your perspective for a moment. You believe I misinterpreted your response to my comments on your script. Other readers seemed to have had a similar interpretation as I did, but if your response was intended to be respectful, then from your perspective we misunderstood.
Even under that perspective, your reply should have been this: 'I regret that you have misunderstood my response and I want you to know I am grateful for the time you spent on my work".
Considering the war going on in your thread before my review, you should have been particularly grateful that I took a very honest and productive approach. But your very first post just comes off as being a wise a$$. Now perhaps cultural differences or some other communication factor led to a misunderstanding, but that could have been avoided if you began with these two words: thank you.
To those who have read this, have you watched Harry Brown? I just read the first few pages and based on what I'm seeing, we're essentially looking at a retread of Harry Brown. Not that that is bad, it's just a heads up on the kind of slow paced drama that I imagine Dustin is going for.
It picks up dramatically on page 6, Andrew, so I don't think he's going for slow paced drama at all. There is a violent home invasion, and as of page 12, that invasion is still ongoing.
The dialogue sounds reasonably authentic, but hard for an American to say.
Andrew is correct about the way the tone is established, so depending on what the writer's goal of the story is, that is something that could be considered to change also. Not advocating, just saying it could be considered.
My recommendation is to have that super cool, likable John smoke a whole shitload more weed and play XBox a few more hours. You could insert the TV screen and show the actual games he's playing. I'd keep this up for at least 13 or 14 pages, so we really get a sense of who John is and his character arc could be trying to win the game he's playing.
When the yobs break in, John, Cynthia, Yob 1, Yob 2, and Yob 3.5 could all play XBox until the sun rises - maybe even a different game, just to really mix things up and make the event alot more entertaining for John, Cynthia, Yob 1, Yob 2, and Yob 3.5, as well as the readers and all those Brits who will buy the DVD based on the name of the movie.
After a few hours of playing (maybe 25-41 pages), have Cynthia go back into the kitchen to make some more food - GRAVY! Have her put it on "the" plates and either she can serve everyone, or everyone can come into the kitchen for their plates.
I would definitely make sure that John uses his remote to turn on the TV while they eat and have some news on in the background, in case no one talks because of all the GRAVY in their mouths.
Just an idea that may make this even more exciting than it already is.
You could insert the TV screen and show the actual games he's playing.
I understand there is some Kitchen Planning Software out there, but I don't know if it's available on XBox. But does it have to be an Xbox - could they not be using a normal PC? There's still lots of Railway Building Games for PC, maybe show them playing that?
To those who have read this, have you watched Harry Brown? I just read the first few pages and based on what I'm seeing, we're essentially looking at a retread of Harry Brown. Not that that is bad, it's just a heads up on the kind of slow paced drama that I imagine Dustin is going for.
Just to back up what Kev and other's have been saying about character intro's. In Harry Brown, I think it's established early on that Michael Caine's character is an elderly war vet, who visits his dying wife in hospital and occasionally likes a pint with his one mate in the pub. We like him early on, (maybe because it's Michael Caine?) and are already rooting for his vengeance after the aftermath of what we can guess will come at the hands of the bad kids.
In this script, yeah -- all we see is light drug use, X-box, guy who doesn't wash and a wife that won't shag him. Not all that engaging early on, I guess, in terms of this being cinematic or visual.
Duncan may hit back with his reasoning for this -- that he's keeping it 'real' or whatever.
I've written a few Brit scripts aimed at this similar market. Miserable people leading miserable lives. In a nutshell, the info I have garnered from some people in the industry is that the spec pile is full of these things, and it's almost futile, because these things can all too easily be produced in house by prodco's. However, If Duncan has producer interest in this then all power to him.
Just a few thoughts.
This thread has been very interesting and educational in a number of ways.
Dustin, you allow your unfounded arrogance and to get in the way of learning something. That's the real shame of it. Do you actually suppose you can learn nothing from anyone else?
Your original comment about having John, your protag, "save the cat" by stripping and donating his clothes to charity, aside from demonstrating your hyper sensitivity to criticism, demonstrates your shallow understanding of what it takes to make a character relatable.
For example, John, in those opening pages, might do something completely obnoxious, something that is very uncharitable. Maybe there is a beggar on the streets with a cup and a sign "will work for food" and John puts his half eaten sandwich in the cup. Some audiences could find this repulsive, but in theory other audiences could find it relatable.
As I said, in Ferris Bueler the kid is lying to his parents and pretending to be sick, not exactly save the cat stuff, but we relate to him for it.
In The Hangover, one of the characters is engaged and obsessed with pleasing his fiance, but under the influence of unplanned narcotics he marries a hooker. This is more of a situational predicament, but it still makes the character more relatable.
Now, you can have a story, as you do, where a regular guy just happens to have really bad stuff happen to him. But then what is the purpose of the first 6 pages of this story? If you are going to go that route, why not just have the guy walk through his bleak neighborhood, get home, we meet his wife, and then the intruders come in on page 2 or 3?
Those 6 pages are prime real estate where you should do 2 things: first, make John either more interesting or relatable, as I have said; second, work more purposely on the bond between the guy and his wife so that when sh!t happens there is more at stake.
As it is you waste that space with Xbox, urination, toking, etc. I am a fellow amateur, so don't take offense to this, but that is amateur use of those pages. Most of us are here to learn, and that's how feedback helps, should you ever become open to it.
Now let's talk about your confusion on where gratitude is proper. This thread is on YOUR script. When someone spends time on your script, and gives you remarks, whether you agree with those remarks or not, you begin with these two words: thank you.
Then if you wish to politely disagree, that's fine, and a little give and take on things can be helpful to everyone. That's how we learn.
Let me see things from your perspective for a moment. You believe I misinterpreted your response to my comments on your script. Other readers seemed to have had a similar interpretation as I did, but if your response was intended to be respectful, then from your perspective we misunderstood.
Even under that perspective, your reply should have been this: 'I regret that you have misunderstood my response and I want you to know I am grateful for the time you spent on my work".
Considering the war going on in your thread before my review, you should have been particularly grateful that I took a very honest and productive approach. But your very first post just comes off as being a wise a$$. Now perhaps cultural differences or some other communication factor led to a misunderstanding, but that could have been avoided if you began with these two words: thank you.
Sorry for not be submissive enough for you Kevin. I believed I was grateful enough when i said thank you... although my initial post was made too quickly and it was too late to do a full edit. I made a whole new post for you where I said thank you and better explained what my previous comment meant. Seems to be a thing around here where *certain* people get all twisted up by how hard thankyou has been said to them. If I say thank you... then that should be enough.
Your advice isn't new to me. I've read it in books... in fact i read it everyday. That's what i mean by cover to cover... I read them over and over again. Not only that but I have already been told the same thing by other screenwriters. Hence my joke on the character going from unlikable to just not caring about him at all. Indeed, in my follow up post I acknowledged this to you and agreed it is something I could change... i likewise agreed when scott said it before you and countless screenwriters before him.
I know the rules and am choosing to break them on this occasion... I know a viewer will sit through 5 minutes of boring conversation so long as something epic happens at 6 minutes... in fact if I was making the film, I'd milk it even more. I also believe that it is enough to see what happens to this guy for the viewer to want to know what will happen next. And what happens next will be satisfying enough for them. It has everything they require. It's realistic because I know these people.
This is also my first script. Despite the interest I doubt it will sell.. but i am more than happy to have garnered interest in it as that shows me that I am doing something right. Nobody sells their first script. In the script I'm writing or rather finishing now... it is very much Hollywood format as that is the market I'm aiming for. Everything will happen like it is supposed to. I've even had pro notes made on it showing me exactly where the strengths and weaknesses are and what i need to do to improve it.
You're a bandwagon jumper, Kevin. Although you gave an honest review at first you then chose to ignore good sense and firstly accused me of not saying thank you to your friend dreamscreamer. You didn't double check to see if I hadn't... you simply popped yourself onto the back of the wagon. After that i lost all respect for you, and your respect matters not a jot to me. Keep it and your 'honesty'.
Dustin, as usual you are off the rails. If I was a bandwagon jumper my first post would have looked much different now, wouldn't it?
I will admit to skimming through your second response. Your first response, which seems to have been consistent with your general instinct, was to be a smart ass and just leave it at that.
After that you didn't seem worth taking seriously except as diversionary entertainment.
Trust me, no one was looking for submissiveness here, certainly not me. I love a good joust now and then. You confuse common manners and courtesy with submissiveness. You should thank your reader and then politely argue your points. I would do no less to you.
You say my advise isn't new, but yet your remarks revealed considerable lack of comprehension. If I remember correctly, Snyder implores that we make our main characters likable. Even if for argument's sake I grant you that relatable and likable are the same thing, my advice was still rather different that Snyder's. My suggestion was to make the character either relatable OR interesting.
For example, Phil in Groundhog Day is distinctly not likable. But he is interesting. And that's enough to hold our attention.
Also, I am not a rules guy. I don't judge a work on rules. I evaluate it on whether it seems to work. When it does not work, I look for reasons why, and sometimes certain rules help. But you have to look at each script.
I didn't mind that the home invasion came at page 6, and actually that's a good spot for it. But the few pages preceding that plot point felt like filler of the worst kind. There was nothing remotely interesting about anything that happened or about the characters. If it was a program, the channel would have been changed.
Also, when I went through the 6 pages of home invasion, though competently written, there was nothing compelling. Part of that was due to John's blandness, to the fact that nothing about him in the first 6 pages made him interesting or appealing.
Those are things as a writer that you should want to know. I've been reviewing scripts here a long time, and I do give it my best to get into what works or what doesn't. Doesn't mean I am right, but certainly I am not following some model. You added filler before your first plot point, you seem to have recognized as much, and I succeeded in pointing that out to you.
Let me look at one thing you just said, since I have a minute to spare. " I know a viewer will sit through 5 minutes of boring conversation so long as something epic happens at 6 minutes."
Yes, but you might be drawing the wrong conclusion. True, your plot point at the 6 minute mark will shake things up and get the story going, and the audience will grant you space before that. But "boring conversation" is not what you are shooting for. This is precious space to be used for character building or for establishing character bonds.
There are other things you have do if you don't like my suggestion on making John more relatable OR interesting. For example, you could do some more gritty world building in the neighborhood, show us something interesting. I don't recommend that direction, but it's a possibility. Or you could begin be introducing us to the bad guys, build them up a bit, or make THEM interesting. Star Wars begins with Vader, not Luke.
There really is only one rule: keep the audience interested.
Note: I did not accuse you of not saying thanks to Dream. I advised that you begin your response to a reviewer with Thank You. In your first response to my post, there was no hint of that. Instead there was sarcasm about Save the Cat. That's where you lost me. After that it was hard to take you seriously. Which is too bad, because you seem reasonably intelligent. The issues seem to lie elsewhere.
Just to back up what Kev and other's have been saying about character intro's. In Harry Brown, I think it's established early on that Michael Caine's character is an elderly war vet, who visits his dying wife in hospital and occasionally likes a pint with his one mate in the pub. We like him early on, (maybe because it's Michael Caine?) and are already rooting for his vengeance after the aftermath of what we can guess will come at the hands of the bad kids.
You give an example and then suggest that the only reason people liked him was because the protag is played by Michael Caine. Simple fix for my script then is to have Michael Caine play the main part. Aside from that I'm not exactly sure what it is to like about just any old guy that happens to be a war vet. The war means nothing to most people today. In fact, he being old is a barrier we have to get over. An old man getting revenge is not as realistic as a younger guy doing so. It can fly... but it doesn't work as well.
In this script, yeah -- all we see is light drug use, X-box, guy who doesn't wash and a wife that won't shag him. Not all that engaging early on, I guess, in terms of this being cinematic or visual.
That is not all you see in this script. Also the last time I checked, crack was a pretty serious drug. Rape is also a serious event. So are mental breakdowns, so is psychosis... so is murder. You point to the first 5 pages where there is boredom... and it is there deliberately. It's a set up. I want the viewer to get bored... and I don't think 5 minutes is enough considering the graphic nature of the rest of the film. I want the protag to be an ordinary working man... that's a relationship... as Kevin is talking about. It's easy to relate to a character depending on a multitude of different factors... he's a normal guy, that's relatable.
I didn't mind that the home invasion came at page 6, and actually that's a good spot for it. But the few pages preceding that plot point felt like filler of the worst kind. There was nothing remotely interesting about anything that happened or about the characters. If it was a program, the channel would have been changed.
I already acknowledged that in one of my posts where I stated that I could delete the beginning entirely, shorten the middle, get rid of the work place scenes, and get rid of the dog.
Also, when I went through the 6 pages of home invasion, though competently written, there was nothing compelling. Part of that was due to John's blandness, to the fact that nothing about him in the first 6 pages made him interesting or appealing.
I thanked you for that statement and agreed with it. Your problem stems from the fact that you jumped onto a bandwagon in believing that I am disrespectful to reviews. You made a quick judgement and it was wrong.
Those are things as a writer that you should want to know. I've been reviewing scripts here a long time, and I do give it my best to get into what works or what doesn't. Doesn't mean I am right, but certainly I am not following some model. You added filler before your first plot point, you seem to have recognized as much, and I succeeded in pointing that out to you.
Yes as stated it was done deliberately... however I'm also willing to acknowledge that it hasn't worked. I have never said otherwise... only stated my reasons for doing it in the first place.
Let me look at one thing you just said, since I have a minute to spare. " I know a viewer will sit through 5 minutes of boring conversation so long as something epic happens at 6 minutes."
Yes, but you might be drawing the wrong conclusion. True, your plot point at the 6 minute mark will shake things up and get the story going, and the audience will grant you space before that. But "boring conversation" is not what you are shooting for. This is precious space to be used for character building or for establishing character bonds.
There are other things you have do if you don't like my suggestion on making John more relatable OR interesting. For example, you could do some more gritty world building in the neighborhood, show us something interesting. I don't recommend that direction, but it's a possibility. Or you could begin be introducing us to the bad guys, build them up a bit, or make THEM interesting. Star Wars begins with Vader, not Luke.
There really is only one rule: keep the audience interested.
Thank you for your thoughts, despite what you may think I appreciate you taking your time to share them. They will likely come in handy with any rewrites I have to make if I manage to sell the script. Seems this industry is more about meeting the right people at the right time than anything else.
Dustin, you seem to be trying to be reasonable, I appreciate that. You have some ability and we all benefit by having the more intelligent people we can find...to look at scripts and discuss story. We don't have to all like each other, but we benefit by working civilly together.
I do want to point out that Basket left you 3 courteous replies in this thread. The first 2 were ignored, as far as I can see, and then when you decided to respond to his most recent, it was defensive, which is ok, and then dismissive(based on your last question), which is not; and lacking in any of reciprocating courtesy.
Like your script, it's an easy fix. Just be polite and grateful, even if you feel annoyed at the criticism. Because there is one thing that is worse than criticism. And that is having no one look at the work.
I hope you accept my remarks here as well intended and sincere, and best of luck with this and future projects.
Dustin, you seem to be trying to be reasonable, I appreciate that. You have some ability and we all benefit by having the more intelligent people we can find...to look at scripts and discuss story. We don't have to all like each other, but we benefit by working civilly together.
I'm never one to hold a grudge. I sensed a change of tone from you, so I changed mine to match
I do want to point out that Basket left you 3 courteous replies in this thread. The first 2 were ignored, as far as I can see, and then when you decided to respond to his most recent, it was defensive, which is ok, and then dismissive(based on your last question), which is not; and lacking in any of reciprocating courtesy.
Like your script, it's an easy fix. Just be polite and grateful, even if you feel annoyed at the criticism. Because there is one thing that is worse than criticism. And that is having no one look at the work.
I hope you accept my remarks here as well intended and sincere, and best of luck with this and future projects.
I opened this script up last night and read the first ten pages. I was going to post some feedback, but decided to wait to see how the thread played out. What I feared might happen has happened.
I, like others, am not sure why this script is here if the author isn't looking for feedback from other writers in order to aid future rewrites.
Being from the UK and a resident of a Council Estate, there was a few things that I was going to bring up that I feel need addressing, in terms of the story 'world' and also some the behaviour of the characters that are introduced early on.
I was also going to mention a few things about the spec market in the UK, which may have also added some value.
However, since the author has producer interest, and seemingly their word is gospel, it doesn't seem that peer reviews are going to be of value. Which is a shame.
On a side note, Kevin's and Dreamscale's advice is actually very sound. No matter where this is set, and no matter what regional market this is aimed at, taking on board their comments might actually improve the story.
I'm not sure what about that post would make me want to respond to it. It is all what he 'was going to add'
His second is the one I responded to, as he has only made 2 posts in this thread, not three... and his second, by his own admission, only to reiterate what had already been said by others.
I will respond to anyone that replies with a modicum of respect and is deserving of a response. There's no need to make a whole post about how you're not going to offer the advice you were going to offer. Just don't respond.
Dustin, I can now see that my first reply was terribly vague, and in turn that has resulting in you thinking I was being disrespectful. I apologize for that. It was not my intention. I will whole heartedly admit that internet forum etiquette isn't probably my strong point.
In retrospect, I guess my first post was just to the test the water to see how a review of your script might possibly benefit you, and if indeed you wanted any help. I am cautious by nature (even when posting anonymously on the internet) and like to avoid conflict.
To answer your question above, I have not sold any of my screenplays.
I won't clog up your thread any longer. Good luck.
Thanks for all the work with the title change, Don... much appreciated.
this script has had several drafts since being listed here. There is now some redemptive qualities added to the final act and the protag is pro-active earlier.
The latest draft came about with help from the attached Director who has been busy punting this around the UK film scene... and he's (we've) been making some waves. One story consultant believes this script to be better than Nolan's following. Of course, I wouldn't expect anyone here to think that... nor even believe I'm telling the truth... but I'm happy with it all the same.
One thing that isn't liked is my new title... Repercussions... but after analysing the story for a while now, I can't think of a more fitting title. Indeed, the complaints about the title have been that it is too on the nose. Shouldn't a title be on the nose? Seems to me, that it should.
Here are some random thoughts, as always, to be taken with a grain of salt. I don’t know anything. Some things may have escaped me so pardon. I’ll just be rambling on and using other movies to better paint what I’m trying to say. Excuse the typo’s, I’m doing this in one sitting.
First off, your new title “Repercussions” is a lot better than the old one “Birth of a Psycho”, IMO. “Birth of a Psycho” sounds like direct to video movie. “Repercussions” sounds more serious. It’s a much better fit for a gritty drama.
I’m a sucker for revenge movies, so this is more or less up my alley. I don’t know why, I think there is just something inherently masculine about revenge movies that it connects with guys. Most people want to see bad guys get their comeuppance. So I feel this is a good topic to write about, as people want to see these kinds of movies and they are quite sought after on the premise alone.
In reality I can’t really think of a lot of revenge movies I’ve liked. Maybe “The Virgin Spring”, “Rolling Thunder” come to mind. I’ve always really wanted to like the “Death Wish” movies, but I never could, as I think they’re not very good. Even though I have a lot of love for Chucky Bronson.
Problem is the topic of revenge is kind of narrow, especially personal revenge stories, loss of a loved one and the like. Most aspects have been covered. There isn’t really anything new you can do. You can just try to focus on aspects that others haven’t focused on in the past as much and expand on those. I thought this script was pretty standard fair. Pretty straight forward story that on screen would lean on the brutality of what transpires. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing… just saying. I actually think there is quite an audience for these kinds of movies.
Movies that usually try to dwell on psychological aspects on revenge often get pegged as boring. Instance, I remember watching a British revenge movie called “Red Road” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0471030/) a while back. Even though the movie was fine, nothing special… it was actually kind of dull to be honest. It was more or less an unconventional, revenge drama, it did have a point and was trying to show something, it had depth. But when you try to show psychological processes and what people are going through you usually show that without dialogue. Silence equates to thought and suffering a lot better. Putting your head down and tilting it to the side, holding it like that in silence has a lot of implications and people project depth onto scenes like that. My point was, even though that was an okay movie I doubt you could sell that script as a spec. Something like yours has more of a shot to get made if you’re not an “name” writer. Because of the dynamic of it all.
Another movie I DID actually enjoy was an Austrian revenge movie called “Revanche” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1173745/). This was also a very slow moving movie. But I enjoyed it. It tried to focus on different emotions of different characters. One feeling guilt, the other a thirst for revenge. It focused on two characters and what they were going through in the situation they were thrust in. In the end one character decided not to go throw with his revenge plan, but in a way he kind of did. Those kinds of dilemmas and psychological states interest me and I like watching them on screen. Probably most will find these kinds of movie boring but I wish they would sink more into mainstream cinema. Sadly, I doubt it.
An aspect of your script I really liked and would like to see expended on is the taking away of the masculinity of the main character and the transformation his wife goes through after being raped. Not being able to watch her husband in the same way. He is no longer a protector, a provider. She saw him crumble and not defend her and is no longer able to look at him with the same eyes, with respect or admiration. Only contempt. She now realizes the state of her vulnerability and even more so because the person that was there to protect her from harm is quite helpless himself. So their relationship is ruined and will never be the same again.
I like those themes. They’re very real. I think you could expend on them a bit more. You did a good job on those.
I also like the co-workers talking shit at work and the scene with their boss putting them in place. Telling one, that it’s always the ones with the loudest mouths that crack first. I liked that, because I kind of believe it’s true.
Also probably my favorite scene was the one when they went to go get David and his wife walked in on them and said “Not in the house”. I really like that one. It was short and brutal. But I think you should cut the following scene with the mother and son. Where the son asks where did his dad go? The previous scene was powerful enough and stood on its own fairly well. I kind of think the scene with the mother and the son dilutes the previous one. And the impact of it is lowered. I understand why you put it in there. But I think you’re better off without it.
A lot of the first third of the script I’m sure will look more powerful on screen then it does on paper. It’s a visual thing. You need to see those things happening to grasp the impact and the awkwardness a viewer is going to experience. Kind of like “Henry: Portrait of a serial killer” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099763/). On paper, it’s just not the same, doesn’t pack the same punch.
I liked the thing with the DVD, bumping into him, testing him. That aspect was also really good. That it matters how you walk and how people perceive you based on the image of yourself you put forward. I’m currently writing a script and have worked in something similar. Later on he walks with a different swagger to him, people don’t perceive him to be as vulnerable as before. I like that… but I also didn’t. I didn’t like it because it took the story in B-movie territory in my opinion. The transformation from weakling to vengeful and strong. That hits shades of comic books to me. B action movie type stuff. I would still make the character vulnerable and a bit of a pussy. Even though he’s dead-set on revenge and killing those three that made his life a living hell. In my experience people hardly change and I understand that this is a movie and the situation this particular character is in, but I still think he becomes too much of a bad ass. I think him fumbling around in moments of importance, not being so sure, having doubt about hitting the junkie in his house etc… would be a more interesting and realistic way to go.
Him being a “man on a mission” out for vengence type deal has been done a lot before. “Man on fire”, “The Man from Nowhere”, “Death Wish” so on. There was an Australian revenge movie that came out in 2008 called “The Horseman” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1060255/) that got some buzz. It was pretty standard and straight forward. I guess people liked it for the brutality and simple plot. Unlike the previous movies I discussed, a movie like “The Horseman” has a better shot of selling and getting distribution because there was an audience for “torture porn like” movies at one point in time. I think that fad has gone down a bit. In many situations I think people don’t perceive the quality of the film but they want to focus in on a specific brutal scene and then that takes on a life of its own. They keep re-telling it over and over… and that scene becomes the movie. Much like Luis Bunuel’s “An Andaluisian Dog”. Everyone just talks about the eye cutting scene. With brutal scenes you can create something, get creative and “shock” the audience, and then the movie gets remembered on that basis alone. It’s more about shock value than about storytelling. But it works.
I also wasn’t a fan of the visions/ imaginings/ apparitions (I don’t know what to call them) of Jason after the incident. It was too cartoony for me and took me out of the tone of the story. I like what you were going for. I just think it could be more subtly accomplished. Let’s say John is lying in bed, alone, in the house after the incident and he hears a noise but is afraid to check it out. He is suspicious about entering his own house. Or he walks down the street sees some young people sitting on the curb drinking… so he takes a detour, as not to pass by them, because he is in a state of fear. Something like that. That kind of situations give a better and more subtle sense of the emotional scaring the incident caused. The fear and uncertainty it has instilled. It’s not so in your face, yet you can accomplish them in a 2 min scene.
The relationship between the main character (John) and Chalmers seemed too convenient for me. I didn’t like that aspect of the story. I would imagine you set it up so you can have the OUT at the end and the scene with the two of them as well. I think people like that kind of stuff. It’s emotional, a person dies but it’s also inevitable in this case, so in a sense everyone wins. But I would like to have seen John facing more difficulties in getting rid of the three criminals. It went a bit too smoothly for my taste. The thing with the young kid not raping John’s wife was a nice touch. It’s a movie trope that I like. You create sympathy for a bad guy, so when the main one takes care of him, we feel a bit bad. The main character gets shades of an anti-hero and sympathy is felt. It’s an effective thing IMO. I liked that.
If I were writing this script, I would kill Chalmers during the first “hit”. It’s unexpected and out of left field. Something happens when they try to kill Kyle or David and Chalmers dies. Maybe in an accident of some sort. I always like those kinds of things. It looks like the movie is setting up something and then… the rug is pulled from under you and it goes in a different direction. I think it would work here. I also wouldn’t be against one the criminals escaping John and him giving chase and… then they accidentally die… get hit by a car… or even better… try to jump a fence and fall in a yard with a pitbull in it… and getting ripped to shreds. That’s brutal, karmic and John can get away with it.
I would go with something like this, John dying in the end, sitting in Jason’s apartment, with Jason and his soon to be wife killed… him saying something. I’ve always been a fan of endings such as that.
Also, I think Jason’s rise up the social ladder was a tad “unrealistic”. I don’t know how much time passed from the incident with John to the time he tried to get his vengeance but Jason’s whole mentality and attitude seemed to have changed. I get what you were going for… the whole “tables have been turned deal”, but still, found it a bit out of place. I think you could work a similar angle a bit better.
I got a bit tired from typing, I wrote a damn rambling essay… so I’m gonna stop here.
I did enjoy the script. Especially the middle third of it. It was nicely written. There weren’t too much descriptions so the read went by fast and the story flowed. I read it in over an hour in one sitting.
I think I saw you said you’re trying to get this made on your own. Good luck with it. I think camera shots like the ones used in “The Wrestler” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1125849) would work for a movie like this. Over the shoulder shots. Handheld stuff. It would add grittyrealism. Also movies shot that way seem a bit dirty and unpolished which would be perfect for a story such as this IMO.
Thanks for the detailed review. I'm certainly going to tackle all of the points made before we make this next year. I value your opinion on this, especially with your knowledge of film. It's something I lack, although I know stories very well, my knowledge of film is relatively lacking so I can often veer into cliché and well-used story tropes and not realise it at the time.
I had enough of it being rejected, although everyone agrees it has potential, nobody wants to make it. It's aimed at a first time producer and they uhm and ah too much... plus, I genuinely feel I can do a better job of it. So, I'm going to be that first time producer. Hopefully start shooting as early as mid-way through next year. I do have two shorts to make before it, plus I want to polish a script ready for the big competitions this year, but this will definitely be started as early as I can next year.
I had enough of it being rejected, although everyone agrees it has potential, nobody wants to make it. It's aimed at a first time producer and they uhm and ah too much... plus, I genuinely feel I can do a better job of it. So, I'm going to be that first time producer. Hopefully start shooting as early as mid-way through next year. I do have two shorts to make before it, plus I want to polish a script ready for the big competitions this year, but this will definitely be started as early as I can next year
I'm sure that process can be frustrating.
IMO, a movie such as this stands a chance of getting notoriety if you make the rape sequence brutal. I know that sounds horrible but when you think about it less than spectacular movies such as "Irreversible", "I Spit on Your Grave", "Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer" and to a lesser degree "Boys Don't Cry", they have gotten their reputations based on the brutality of the rape scenes in them. It's the first thing that sticks out about the movies.
To some degree people like watching that stuff. I especially remember rampant discussion about who could sit through Irreversible. Stupid stuff like that. For some reason if you make a scene brutal like that people think of it as realistic and then they equate that to being difficult to film and then they equate that to art. The sheer brutality on film somehow ups the quality of the movie in most people's eyes. Especially genre fans.
I wasn't a fan of the British revenge movie "Dead man's shoes". But I can't point out the number of people that mention to me the scene where the mentally handicapped person is being harrassed.
So if you make that scene memorable, the movie is pretty much set IMO. You can have the main character do brutal things. Tone has been established, he gets carte-blanche. You can add a torture scene or whatever. Genre fans eat that stuff up.
In the end this is what you're looking to do. A brutal revenge movie. If you up some of the psychological undertones press the drama as to add depth or simulate depth, and you make it a bit less predictable I think you can have a winner.
In the original version of this the bad guys force John to perform cunnilingus on Cynthia after they've finished raping her as a final show of domination. I cut it though for fear of people saying it was to deliberately shock... but, as we all know, people are capable of far worse when given the power to do so.
I'll consider putting it back in. Depends how the actors feel as well. Plus the director etc... but you've made a good argument for putting it back.
In the original version of this the bad guys force John to perform cunnilingus on Cynthia after they've finished raping her as a final show of domination. I cut it though for fear of people saying it was to deliberately shock... but, as we all know, people are capable of far worse when given the power to do so.
I'll consider putting it back in. Depends how the actors feel as well. Plus the director etc... but you've made a good argument for putting it back.
That's not bad. If you are going to spend 15-20 min on a scene. Make it something people will talk about.
Thinking about the ending. I would throw out a suggestion that just popped in:
Maybe you have John showing up at Jason's house and he walks in on Jason and his pregnant wife. He starts beating them and Jason starts telling him something like: "It only took me one day to make you into a man". "You couldn't do it on your own your whole life, I put you there in one day. I showed you the way John... say thank you".
Essentially, just press the "I know there is a man in there somewhere" theme you had going on. Just put an exclamation point on it in a mocking way.
Then John beats him some more and in a moment of furious anger he kicks Jason's wife in her stomach... and again and again. To pay him back. Telling him that he is going to kill him and his wife won't have his baby, ending his lineage. So his fuck'ed up children won't be able to walk this earth and do the shit he did to other people. Jason breaks down and cries... John kills him... then Jason's wife shoots John.
John sits on the floor dying next to her and he tell her something and then dies.
This way you have another theme. Violence just breeds more violence. It's a vicious cycle. Jason losses everything and John losses everything.
Plus you have one shocking scene in the beginning and one at the end. It balances out. Usually movies just have one shocking scene that's remembered. You can have two Someone kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach isn't something you see in movies. It's quite shocking and brutal.
In one of my drafts John accidentally shoots Jason's girlfriend as it was a lot like you describe, with just pure hatred coming from John, hence Birth of a Psycho for the title. There was no redemption at all in the script. I did have a part 2 in mind also, where he was even worse, dealing with psychosis, voices etc. But talking with producers, directors etc, they wanted John more likeable, even had one suggest that I should make Chalmers the main protag. So I changed it.
I do like the idea of going back the other way. Those producers were trying to encourage me to write more like Hollywood, adding redemption and heroic qualities as they claimed that stood the best chance of funding. But my instinct is to write this bleak and keep it that way.
I'll definitely take your ideas into account in a few months time when I get to rewrite this. I'll also give you a story analyst credit when I make it as you've helped a lot with this story.
Set in North London, 'Still' is a gritty and atmospheric thriller about the violent disintegration of a man and father. Tom Carver (Aidan Gillen) is a man stumbling blindly towards a crossroad in his life, thrown out of focus by the death of his teenage son a year earlier. He becomes involved in a feud with a teenage gang after a seemingly harmless collision with a young kid. As the feud becomes more horrifying, Carver's world starts to unravel forcing him to make decisions that will change his life forever.
............
Upon looking at the trailer, not so much. But still, might want to check it out:
It's funny you should bring this script up as it as this one is back in my hands again after its option ran out. I've given it a 2015 facelift and uploaded it here. Hopefully next time, if there is a next time, this one will actually get made.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of that film, it sounds pretty good, despite the low rating. I watched Rise of the Krays a couple of days ago and despite it only having a 5 on IMDb, I actually enjoyed it. There's some occasional bad acting, the cast could have been better, but the rest of the film makes up for it. I gave it a 7.
Dustin - quite liked the re-write. Just a couple of nit issues:
Quoted Text
JASON If you want to keep opening your mouth I have something here to stick in it. You'll need to open nice and wide. Jason grabs his crotch, then sits on the floor with his arm around Cynthia.
I think the action and the dialogue reads better if it is broken up. i.e.,
JASON If you want to keep opening your mouth I have something here to stick in it.
Jason grabs his crotch, then sits on the floor with his arm around Cynthia.
JASON You'll need to open nice and wide.
Quoted Text
JASON You look beautiful.
This line is a bit out of character for Jason for me. I think he would say you look very fuckable or something like that.
Quoted Text
Kyle throws the game controller onto the floor in a temper after losing a game.
The game controller was smashed up a few pages ago - is this a different one?
On page Page 33
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BATHROOM where he brushes his teeth, then washes his hands and face. He checks himself out in the mirror. Needs a long overdue shave.
There is an almost identical passage on page 31 - I would change it up a little bit.
Quoted Text
JOHN When did you find out?
CHALMERS Last week. Thought it was emphysema... I didn't expect... well, you know...
I don't like the "week ago" here. I think he can get the final verdict a week a go, but I think he needs to same something akin to - I've known for too long. Thought that ignoring it would make it go away. It didn't.
Regarding the opening. It is well done and is needed to introduce characters (e.g., Kyle, Jason). I have a little issue with John seeing their faces - hearing their voices - but not being able to make a connection with who they are at the break-in scene. I would consider introducing them in the opener as you have - but have them send a minion into interfere with John rather than themselves - someone who's going to check John's wallet - get his address. Just a thought.
The break in and rape scene takes 20 pages. I'm just guessing that you are going to get some suggestions to cut it down. I would not. They are a great 20 and the other 70 revolve around them.
Overall - crisply written - a very quick read. Good luck with it.
Dustin - quite liked the re-write. Just a couple of nit issues:
I think the action and the dialogue reads better if it is broken up. i.e.,
JASON If you want to keep opening your mouth I have something here to stick in it.
Jason grabs his crotch, then sits on the floor with his arm around Cynthia.
JASON You'll need to open nice and wide.
Yeah, I'll do that. Cheers.
Code
JASON
You look beautiful.
Quoted Text
This line is a bit out of character for Jason for me. I think he would say you look very fuckable or something like that.
I like the contrast because I feel that it adds to his unhinged personality.
Quoted Text
The game controller was smashed up a few pages ago - is this a different one?
Cheers. I'll clear up that confusion.
Quoted Text
There is an almost identical passage on page 31 - I would change it up a little bit.
I like the repetition... but I will change it up a little bit, make it more interesting.
Quoted Text
I don't like the "week ago" here. I think he can get the final verdict a week a go, but I think he needs to same something akin to - I've known for too long. Thought that ignoring it would make it go away. It didn't.
Yes, I agree. I think I may drop John's direct question too. A questioning look would say the same thing... plus, when somebody tells you something like that I suppose how long since they've known wouldn't be one of the first questions. Thanks.
Quoted Text
Regarding the opening. It is well done and is needed to introduce characters (e.g., Kyle, Jason). I have a little issue with John seeing their faces - hearing their voices - but not being able to make a connection with who they are at the break-in scene. I would consider introducing them in the opener as you have - but have them send a minion into interfere with John rather than themselves - someone who's going to check John's wallet - get his address. Just a thought.
Ah. I forgot about that... the issue with the DVD would be something concerning John. That scene is a later draft. In most of the earlier drafts, they simply broke in without the preamble. Of course, this would be something John should mention to Chalmers, or, at least, be referred to in some manner. Thanks, excellent advice.
Quoted Text
The break in and rape scene takes 20 pages. I'm just guessing that you are going to get some suggestions to cut it down. I would not. They are a great 20 and the other 70 revolve around them.
Overall - crisply written - a very quick read. Good luck with it.
Yeah, I think that sequence of events runs for the right amount of time. It should be a very harrowing experience to watch if done properly.
What I have been considering, is bringing Cynthia home earlier, thereby injecting a little more drama. Perhaps keeping Cynthia in hospital is cheating the story a little.
Thanks for the read, mate. Let me know if you have anything new and I'll get to it after the 7WC scripts.
Ah. I forgot about that... the issue with the DVD would be something concerning John. That scene is a later draft. In most of the earlier drafts, they simply broke in without the preamble. Of course, this would be something John should mention to Chalmers, or, at least, be referred to in some manner. Thanks, excellent advice.
No preamble would work - but I did like getting a sense of the dudes before the break in. Just got to avoid a face to face with John.
Quoted Text
What I have been considering, is bringing Cynthia home earlier, thereby injecting a little more drama. Perhaps keeping Cynthia in hospital is cheating the story a little.
I like that change - perhaps you could have her walk in the house right in the middle of one of John's hallucinating flashbacks - seeing that he's the one that has gone crazy she packs up some things and heads off to the parents.
Quoted Text
Thanks for the read, mate. Let me know if you have anything new and I'll get to it after the 7WC scripts.
Just posted a feature (Taking Stock) - but not sure it is there yet. Am currently working on a dark short (trying to branch out) and that will be ready soon.
I read this in one sitting, which is rare for me as I usually read 10-20 and move on. I get a lot of "Clockwork Orange" vibes in here. I think this will make a really cool indie film - surprised the director bailed on it.
I read this in one sitting, which is rare for me as I usually read 10-20 and move on. I get a lot of "Clockwork Orange" vibes in here. I think this will make a really cool indie film - surprised the director bailed on it.
It's with someone else right now. Just waiting for the paperwork and I sign her over. This prospect looks good. It'll be taken to the US, so rewritten to suit the demographic there. I'm involved with the rewrites too, as I understand it.
It's with someone else right now. Just waiting for the paperwork and I sign her over. This prospect looks good. It'll be taken to the US, so rewritten to suit the demographic there. I'm involved with the rewrites too, as I understand it.
Good luck with it, Dustin. Hope everything works out.
The option was signed and delivered yesterday, so out of my hands completely now. It's a paid option so it seems that the producer is serious about it. We'll see in a couple years time, I suppose. Cheers mate.
The option was signed and delivered yesterday, so out of my hands completely now. It's a paid option so it seems that the producer is serious about it. We'll see in a couple years time, I suppose. Cheers mate.
I posted in this thread 2.5 years ago. Wow! Didn't realized I did. Time flies!! Congratulations on the option. Hope it works out for the best. Would love to watch it some day. I try to make it a point to watch everything SS members get produced.
That goes for ajr as well. Hope the one you're working on is GA. You've put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into that one. I'd definitely buy a copy when available.
That's awesome news, Dustin. Major congrats are in order.
How did they find the script, if you don't mind me asking?
They read it here on simply, I dropped out of it once as I had some shit going on. Shit is now resolved, mostly, and they hit me up again, asking if the film was still available. I said yes and it's now gone, again.
This is the third proper option on this script. My first ever script and it gets more attention than anything else I've ever written... but upon saying that, not everything I've written is listed here. Partly because I deem them too big budget, so not worthwhile listing here. I see this place more suited to the indie market.
He's hoping to start on it next year, so hopefully the year after that should see it made, then (as equally hopeful) perhaps a few months in post. A couple of years away, but that'll soon fly. I'll keep you updated, cheers.
The option was signed and delivered yesterday, so out of my hands completely now. It's a paid option so it seems that the producer is serious about it. We'll see in a couple years time, I suppose. Cheers mate.
Congrats. To have a feature in that position is a great step.
Fingers crossed for you.
Whilst I haven't read the script, I would be interested to hear what types of change they seek and why? I did multiple re writes on a short for a producer in New York and whilst it didn't get filmed that process was not only useful but interesting to see the different take they had.
The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards. Third - Honolulu Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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