Quoted from CoopBazinga Hey Dustin, Thanks for coming back, glad that my feedback was helpful and gives you some ideas for the second draft. I’m not going to counter-argue every point with you as most my notes or suggestions were merely my opinion and I would of course never expect anyone to agree with anything I said… although I can’t help thinking they should.

The thing with me is that I can disagree, even vehemently, and change my mind five seconds later. I appreciate your help, it's give me the kick up the arse I needed to make the changes necessary. In saying that I've dropped the whole beginning for something approaching originality now. I'm also concentrating more on the case (which is now one of those cases on wheels) and the Colombians. The casino robbery is now gone too, and is replaced with an original nightclub robbery...  pulled off not in the usual way. Well it is the usual way, just not the way we'd expect to see it in a film. Anyway the nightclub robbery also leads to an ironic twist. I haven't written the ending yet. I'll do that over the next couple of days as it is a plot hole now I've killed the Russian connection. I think this is something our heroes are going to have to pull off on their own.

Quoted from CoopBazinga You’re quite right, they are. But it would certainly help clean up that scene for clarity and keep in with the British tone. Like for example, if I spoke to someone at the pub and they asked me where Terry was, I’d say “He’s at the bar” It’s up to you – it’s literally changing a word and it could make a big difference.

There are slight differences between pubs and bars here, but if I've mixed up calling a place a pub and then a bar I'll have to clean that up. I suppose bars here are any type of place that looks modern.

Quoted from CoopBazinga A Hollywood gatekeeper? Certainly don’t want argue with one of them! All I can say from my experience is that I have never seen anybody do it this way. No drama’s, that’s your preference. I just don’t understand why you have to have it? If you’re “EXT” then your outside, I thought it was simple and I do love simplicity – it can make for a cleaner read. No biggie though, it doesn’t matter to the story.

Yeah I know... but it's what he said. I haven't really taken much notice of the slugs, aside from to take in the information since then. I'll change it back on another draft.

Quoted from CoopBazinga I think you’re thinking too much into this, this maybe how it happens but it’s almost impossible to get this across. You need to think what the reader is seeing, and how they are going to portray what you’re characters are doing. But this also counters why he was nervous, if he was getting groupies together for some kind of protection then why be nervous? I do understand what you’re saying but this isn’t being shown on the page IMO… did you say if they were drug dealers or not?

It is shown that they are now drug dealers.

Quoted from CoopBazinga We all read things differently and of course it’s crystal to you – you wrote it. I guess the point I was trying to make is, why have “drunken” revellers walk by, then a group of three males “drunk” in the very next segment? If they’re not the same, are the revellers needed at all? Can you see why I would be confused by the two expressions which our two apparent groups shared?  Hopefully you can because it will help you to understand how people other than “you” the writer can be confused.

OK. I could make that clearer. I'm trying to convey what it's like on a Saturday night in the City. I know how to keep both and make it clear.

Quoted from CoopBazinga I personally think it wouldn’t and of course that is my opinion of many, many nights out on the piss where I never once did this or saw anybody else do this. But of course we have different experiences so you may have seen this happen - it was only a side comment and no biggie, just reminded me of an episode of the Simpsons where Lisa and Homer are not talking to one another around the dinner table and I found it amusing.

People say nonsensical things when they're drunk and this comes from hearing people say stupid things just to have a reason to fight someone. He talking to his mate, rather than to Alexander, is bringing his mate in as well to agree that Alexander is the one in the wrong. That's why his mate comes in and speaks for him. It's a prelude to these guys kicking the shit out of one bloke in a doorway. Happens all the time here, very rare you see a one on one.

Quoted from CoopBazinga I agree, it is a different tone and again I was only having a little fun with the situation (I do that if you didn’t notice, think it makes you the author a little relaxed and able to have a laugh) I think the problem with this word is it’s a cheesy line to use in the circumstances. I really hope you and your mates didn’t use this, plenty of other words to use in this situation.

I'll have to have another look at the line.

Quoted from CoopBazinga I now understand why you do this in your slugs, you think it makes it less confusing and I can appreciate that. I still don’t think it’s unnecessary, readers should be reading the slug but at least I see you reasoning to do it. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah because I was told it was less confusing. It's no big deal for me to change it back... just mildly annoying.

Quoted from CoopBazinga Fair comment. Legally you’re right but I didn’t explain myself properly – I meant in context to the characters. There is a difference to help me understand who they are.

That is clearer now in the second draft. I imagine I'm going to need at least another draft or two after this to get it perfect too. So much for 8 days.

Quoted from CoopBazinga Nothing! But it again it would show some characteristics, these guys are safety conscious for example but knowing these guys, it’s unlikely.

Working a lock in gives me more story to work with. I don't mind adding one.

Quoted from CoopBazinga I didn’t mean that. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant why is Chalmers letting him out? He could have left it to the custody sergeant. To have the DI come down let you out personally but not say anything meaningful seems a waste and the fact that we never see Chalmers again, is it necessary?

Yeah it was again another plant for use later. In case I wanted to bounce off a police investigation. You're right, he isn't needed.

Quoted from CoopBazinga Hopefully you don’t mind me coming back, I do think it can help and I appreciate you clarifying or thanking me for some of the points I raised. Have a good one.

I don't mind at all. It's a great help. If I can return the favour let me know.

Hey Dustin,

How's it going, buddy? Just carrying on:

Quoted from DustinBowcot Yeah Danny works for Johnny and Tony, doesn't mean you have to be scared of the people you work for. They should have just as much fear over you. It's not like you see in the films. In real life it is all about mutual respect. If I were to have Johnny and Tony pushing people around that would be B/S and a cliche. In real life that just doesn't happen.

I agree that it’s about mutual respect in real life but this isn’t real life – it’s supposed to be a movie. Now I would never push my boss, I’m old enough to understand that this would result in my sacking and maybe even criminal charges but in a movie, you could get away with it. That’s the beauty with movies; it takes away from real life.

I like that word “respect” and that’s my problem with these characters, they never had respect for the people who were not only their bosses, but also quite hot tempted people (one particular) who had lost everything and carried guns. I think you should be scared of these people or at least show them respect.

On the same note, you did have Johnny head-butting Oddball and punching Honey so would this go against the “pushing people around that would be B/S and cliché”

Quoted from DustinBowcot Plenty of actors willing to work for free just for the acting credit, many of them would kill for speaking roles. That is also my argument against using so many extras... they're free and willing, so why not? The more the merrier.

I’m not a producer or director… probably wouldn’t classify myself as a writer so what do I know. You’re probably right that lots of actors are willing to work for free but are they prepared to throw money in for costumes, locations,  props,  make-up artist’s, special effects people etc. I only made this comment with a small budget in mind and I thought producers were always trying to save a few bucks here and there. Why have more extras/characters than necessary especially if you can use already known characters from the story. I made examples of this before with Chalmers and the male bouncer which could have been Delroy’s right-hand man. Was the workmen necessary, couldn’t the guys just steal it from a closed worksite? I’m confident that if this does get made, the character count would come down purely for costs.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Page 26 - Yeah he does feel sorry for himself. He feels guilty because he was the last one with the case, and he's just had to take a headbutt. I see things a little differently to you.

Obviously we do. I never once felt or saw this apparent guilt… the next morning he wanted to run away before partying with some chicks and taking cocaine. Never once did he try and make amends, well until he was told he had to. It’s just an odd thing for an obvious high person to be feeling. I thought he would be more selfish at this time and maybe feel more guilty in the morning once the drugs were wearing off.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Page - 31 - More coke, yes. You have to keep taking the coke if you want to stay awake. I don't know what the big deal is. I honestly don't. Coke isn't a hard hitting drug. It's mild. Amphetamines hit a lot harder, but even on that you're still not hallucinating no matter how much you take. That can only happen after days of no sleep and your brain starts playing tricks on you. Same as where all the coke is coming from isn't a big deal. I don't know what your experiences are but mine are far different.

I’m not going to debate on the effects of cocaine – you would know a lot more than me. I really don’t feel it’s necessary for them to keep taking it, you would hope the adrenalin of the night would be enough to get them through. It’s no big deal, just a little unusual to have your three main characters taking drugs all the time, Alexander especially.

As for where the coke is coming from, it’s more to do with “if they’re dealers, why are they snorting all the shit?” This means they can’t sell it, lose profits and hence lose money and isn’t that the point of them being dealers – to make money. I certainly wouldn’t employ them. Hey, overall this isn’t my field so I wouldn’t know. Fair play to those dealers if this is how works, good stuff. Money for taking drugs.

Quoted from DustinBowcot page 40 - Where is Johnny's crew? he's turned up at the club on his own unaware anyhting is wrong there.

Fair enough but where are they before and after this? I don’t mean the usual suspects, his actual crew – is it just Tony, Danny and Oddball? You would think he had more people working under him with 2 mill in cash and all the coke, not to mention bouncers and so on – just like Delroy had. If he doesn’t then he hardly seems worth Delroy’s time – there has to be bigger fish to fry.

Quoted from DustinBowcot page 44 - They already figured out on page 43.

Did they say that? I must have missed it. I don’t remember any of our five guys ever mentioning Delroy to each other. Might want to make a point of getting this across – it becomes quite important later for Alexander’s revenge.

Quoted from DustinBowcot page 45 - he's pulling the coke from his groin.

Lol. The boys better check what they’re sniffing! Maybe he’s keeping it up his arsehole.

Quoted from DustinBowcot page 50 - Johnny isn't relying on them to get the case back. He's relying on them to get the 200 large to pay off the Turks. That's clear in the script, you must have missed that part. Did you skim at all?

That’s a bit harsh – do you really think I skimmed it? But just to clarify, these were my words:

“Wouldn’t Johnny want to be more proactive, try to get the money himself as well? It’s just that he seems to be relying on the very guys who lost the case in the first place. Not really a great plan especially as his own life depends on it.”

I understand what he wants them to do. My point was, he has three days and could be more proactive to try and sum up the money himself as well… why go in hiding with three days and leave to the very people who put him in this position. Go into hiding after two days have elapsed and if you haven’t been able to get the money.

Quoted from DustinBowcot page 54 - The waggling his dick thing... yeah, I like a bit of comedy thrown in. I think these types of things are so open to comedy, so easy, that I just can't help myself. Besides, criminals do have a laugh while they operate... just like anyone else with a job to do. Laughing helps pass the time.

I also love a little comedy thrown in but this is OTT for what you have. And do criminals have a laugh when their life’s may depend on it? Maybe they do in a Adam Sandler or Farrelly  brother’s movie – thought you were aiming for something different here.

Quoted from DustinBowcot It's how friends operate. One guy complains... I drove last time, so the decent thing to do is take a turn yourself, isn't it?

Are they friends? They’ve known each for less than 24 hours. Also, are these friends going out on a road trip or pulling a job to rob from a safe with heavy drill equipment. I would like to think they put a plan in order “you’re the guy with one hand so you won’t be out get-away driver” Just to be safe and avoid being caught. Please tell these three aren’t teenagers who complain about driving last time – how far is this local petrol station? Well, as its local, you’d hope within 10 miles, right?

Quoted from DustinBowcot page 70 - It's a psychological thing. After just doing something crazy adrenalin pumps around your body, give you the shakes. So you have to remind yourself that you haven't done anything wrong, it's just a normal day, you've just ran for the bus or something, time to calm down. It helps to have a voice like that around you, especially if you're new. Also if the police pass they will race right by with hardly a second glance in your direction.

I agree. My problem with it and it actually bides in well with your quote is he was driving calmly before the “calm down” talk. Then he drove calmly again – it’s all wrong. Have him drive recklessly, then the “breathe talk” and he then drives calmly. This fits in with what you’ve said and was my point in the first place.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Yeah in regards to driving calmly... when driving away from the scene of a robbery, it is not only the driving you need to control it is also your mindset, as your legs can shake on their own. it's just adrenalin, but it's important to keep calm and that will subside. Also not good to have shaky legs while driving.

As above, if your legs shake then I more inclined to think you would drive a little reckless at first. Breathe, let the adrenalin pass and then drive more calmly.

Quoted from DustinBowcot When the fire door closes they are trapped in a bricked-up alleyway

Really? Fire door with a bricked-up alleyway meaning people would be trapped! So, this is legally owned by someone (can’t be gangsters can it) but it is legally owned and open to the public. This means it needs to have health and safety come around and have safety checks, never is a fire escape gonna lead to a trapped in area – you’re just inviting Hillsborough on again. How many people would be trapped in that alley on an average weekend night? 2 hundred, 3 maybe? Can you see why I thought this wouldn’t be a trapped in alleyway – are there trapped in alleyways? What’s the point of them? Up to you but I would consider changing the this door to something else, what? No idea but a fire door speaks problems to me.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Gangsters like fishing too. Why not? I don't see why I should hit every cliche.

Okay… why didn’t he carry his rod and maggots too? Whatever gangsters do in their spare time is up to them. I didn’t understand why he’s carrying around a fishing knife that is so small, it has such little effect. If you carry around a knife, surely it’s to do damage and not just prick someone. On the other hand, by your reply, this guy might have just been coming back from a fishing trip and that’s possible of course.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Bouncer search people to take their drugs and then sell them back to them. Everyone gets searched when going into a club... aside from, funnily enough, the actual gun men.

This is probably right. I wouldn’t know, can’t remember ever being searched when walking into a club, football stadium yes. My logic to this would be, why the hell would these clubbers come back to this club? They sell their drugs back to them – fuck it! I’d go to another joint (no pun intended)

Quoted from DustinBowcot Thanks for the read, many of the things you've said have been a great help.

I’m glad to hear and I hope it all works out with the producer. Feel free to pm me if you have want a read on the second draft.

Good luck and keep writing.

Steve

Hi mate. A lot of this has changed now... I'm also turning this into an ensemble piece as that seems to be its natural path. I'll kill the flashback scene at the beginning entirely and just come straight into the action with Alexander on the streets. the fact he has one hand, just an aside. He is no longer the protag. I did consider using Tony. The actor the part is written for would certainly like that, lol... and as much as I'd like to, I feel that this piece seems to be a natural ensemble.

I've killed all of the Russian and actual Colombian connections, although I've kept the Colombian characters they are now just another gang.

To be honest mate, I feel this has another couple of drafts before it is actually ready to go out anywhere, so I've got some graft to do, especially as I want to do this as an ensemble.

I get your point on the fire escape. That was meant to be a smoking area... if it crops again in this draft i'll be sure to make that clearer.

Yeah... that's pretty much how it works. Especially lower down the scale. They buy the coke, cut it down into party bags and make 3-4 times what they paid for it. And it sells fast. You can sniff as much as you want. Especially the party stuff cut with glucose. If they didn't cut it and sold it fairly they would still double their money.

In the UK most clubs are not drug friendly. It's only the underground type clubs of which there are very few if any around these days. Or maybe it's just because I'm out of the loop. Great places to go, but prone to being closed down by the police or raided. They prefer you buy your drugs from the dealers inside. So if you get caught with drugs, even if you are a dealer, they will rob you and still let you in the club where you can buy more drugs from the in-house dealer who is buying his drugs from the security. So in a way they sell them their own drugs back. You can take drugs, they just have to be bought from the house.

Should I explain all of that in a script? I dunno, I may get an opportunity on another draft, this script is changing so much.

I also have Danny knowing Alexander from a previous prison sentence now. Still quite a bit of work to do on this script.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Hi mate. A lot of this has changed now... I'm also turning this into an ensemble piece as that seems to be its natural path. I'll kill the flashback scene at the beginning entirely and just come straight into the action with Alexander on the streets. the fact he has one hand, just an aside. He is no longer the protag. I did consider using Tony. The actor the part is written for would certainly like that, lol... and as much as I'd like to, I feel that this piece seems to be a natural ensemble. I've killed all of the Russian and actual Colombian connections, although I've kept the Colombian characters they are now just another gang. To be honest mate, I feel this has another couple of drafts before it is actually ready to go out anywhere, so I've got some graft to do, especially as I want to do this as an ensemble.

Hey Dustin,

A lot is changing! You could argue that this draft was an ensemble piece to be fair so I can see why you've decided to go that route. I guess with all the changes, it could basically be considered a new first draft once completed. Will it still be a revenge tale? I mean, if you're not solely focusing on Alexander that is.

Best of luck with it.

Steve

Yes it will be a new first draft utilising much of the old one, but completely new in so far as plot. Turns out that first draft was little more than a huge treatment with character development. Not a bad thing exactly... but it will teach me to contain story ideas to cards and a board until I am really ready to write them from now on. I have a treatment ready to go that I wrote ages ago. I'm going to do it next, because it's just waiting for me to write it.

I literally chose to write Out with the Old on a spur of the moment after meeting some actors and seeing what they can do. Also what the indie producers I'm meeting seem to be into. So If I can get films made with these guys I'm prepared to write what they like. I can write my own stuff too... and gangster stuff comes easy to me anyway.

This will still be a revenge tale of sorts as the plot centres around the actual takeover now. Or it will on the next draft. I'm thinking of making Honey the protag. I've already made her the boss over Tony and Johnny. The old cliche where her husband dies leaving her in charge but also weak, resultant defections, hence the takeover. I really do like that idea and I think I will run with it on the next draft. I'm aware that it is fashionable these days to write strong female characters, so I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to treat her just like a man, she is a woman in a man's world, just like Thatcher (RIP)... I may even have her taking male hormones. But I will also attempt to show her feminine side... maybe have her jumping on a chair when she sees a mouse? J/K.

Thanks for your patient responses mate. Good luck with your own stuff... and let me know if I can return the read.