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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Doña Marina: Origins Moderators: bert
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Don
Posted: August 18th, 2010, 7:02pm Report to Moderator
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Doña Marina: Origins by Ray Whitter - Short, Action, Adventure - La Malinche is a cursed woman & traitor to a world. Uncover the beginnings of a young girl's cruel betrayal by family, fate and history. 8 pages - pdf, format


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bert
Posted: August 18th, 2010, 8:05pm Report to Moderator
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Odd title, but not bad.  Looks like this is intended to be a series, which can be a fun way to go.

And an interesting character.  Reminds me a bit of Tanis, actually -- a character of my own that I dabbled with for a while.  (Ask around if you do not know who that is   )

I have some comments, both technical and story-related.

First off, it is my understanding that SFX is not an abbreviation that we need to utilize here in spec land.  Not wrong, of course, but I do not use it personally.  Nor do I see it often.  It is enough to say that crickets chirp.

Then there is this opening montage.  Setting the scene is one thing, but this goes on forever.  I do not think anyone will disagree with me here.  Cut it by at least half.

As for the superimposition, you need only write "SUPER:"  Also, though I am fairly well-educated, and I have no idea what CE means.

An abbreviation you can use, however, as Marina discusses the crab with the children, is "MOS" -- that is when people are talking, but you do not hear what they are saying.  I learned it as an old-time German director who sometimes filmed "mit out sound", but it probably stands for something much more mundane. [Note:  I see you do use this later, but I think you are using it wrong -- nobody is talking(?)]

And once again, during the trade talks, you give too many extraneous details.  Again, a lop by half would serve this well.  And a peeve of mine occurs here -- I cringe whenever I read "etc." in a script.  

When the Chieftess reveals the trade for Marina, we do not yet know who that is.  She has not been called by name.  Some may surmise who it is, but better to be clear.  Have someone call her by name earlier, on the beach.

Some will tell you the Chieftess talks too much on page 6 -- but I think it reads fine, even if you were to omit the (beat), which I would recommend.

The set-up here, should you plan to continue, is interesting enough, but there is a central flaw in this "Origins" story.

You are telling the story of Marina, and unless I am mistaken, you did not even give her a single line of dialogue.  Your origin tells us nothing at all about her.  Is she passive, defiant, smart, innocent, devious?  To draw us into another episode, these types of questions must be answered.

The dialogue is good, and to me, this is already a leap forward from your original offering on the boards.  It is always nice to see that happen.

But for this to work "right", you need to get Marina more involved in her own story.  Seven pages is quite lean -- you have plenty of room to flesh her out.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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screenrider
Posted: August 18th, 2010, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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Ray,

This one for me wins the prize for one of the most strangest topics I've ever read since I've been here at SS.   It's just seems like such an odd undertaking to retell the story of this La Malinche.  Honestly I didn't even know who she was so I had to google her.

I'm still shaking my head.  What an odd, odd subject.   But I applaud your effort.   It was a bold move and you've succeeded in introducing me to a page in history that I obviously slept through in class.  

Format-wise it needs tweaking.   Apply changes like you did in Guardians of Mayfair and you'll be fine.

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screenrider  -  August 21st, 2010, 12:18am
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RayW
Posted: August 19th, 2010, 1:53am Report to Moderator
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Thank you, Bert

To start at the end before looping to the beginning... (Or is it the other way around in a Cheshire Cat sort of way?)

>> The dialogue is good, and to me, this is already a leap forward from your original offering on the boards.  <<
Ah! And there's the rub for me.
This was written in September of 2009 and only tinkered with in a minor way since.
As such, this cannot be a leap forward.

Guardians was an experiment to see how far I could tax seasoned readers - and now I know!
The "native" style in Origins would reflect my actual capabilities as a story developer.
The congruity of a story trumps all.  (We'll touch on Marina's absence of lines momentarily.)
If I'm in the audience cursing at giant plot holes, well... I'm just not happy with the director, editor and anyone else guilty.
Dialog is the salt and fat that makes that makes bacon good, so "THANK YOU!" on that.

>>Reminds me a bit of Tanis, actually -- a character of my own that I dabbled with for a while.  <<
I will try to hunt those stories down here at SS. I love the non-standard character.

>> SFX is not an abbreviation that we need to utilize here in spec land... It is enough to say that crickets chirp. <<
I've been reading format protocol for going on a year now and for the life in me I'm having a dickens of a time balancing what I want to provide to a director and what readers want

For this example, and by all means tell me if it's your understanding this is a big "no no" to directors, if I/you/we envision ten three second setting shots, totaling a whopping 30 seconds, with the same background sound effect dubbed over it - as opposed to - every three seconds the audience hears a different environmental sound, is that acceptable? Or is the director going to do whatevertheh3llhewants anyway, so don't burn a brain cell on it?
Crickets is different than crickets and insects.
Crickets ONLY has night time connotations, yet they often chirp in the daytime along with the insects - so... ?!!!
("OMFG! It' 50% crickets and 50% BUGS! Who the h3ll cares, Ray!") LOLOLOL!

What I'm getting at is there is a strong difference between what it appears a script reader wants and what a film director needs, and finding that balance is proving difficult for me.

>> Cut it by at least half. <<
Even if it would take maybe twenty, thirty seconds to show?
"Sometimes it takes longer to read than to show" sorta thing?

>> I have no idea what CE means. <<
CE is "Current Era" and is the new PC way of stating what you and I grew up learning as AD which now has religiously prejudicial Christian-centric overtones to it. ("Yes", I'm rolling my eyes and effecting a less than sincere effeminate voice.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era
I'm deliberately being an a$$ by using it since the Christian Spanish soldiers slaughtered entire civilizations.
I'll be d@mned if them Christians are gonna play Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of their own history.
("Yes" I am one, too.)

>> as Marina discusses the crab with the children... but you do not hear what they are saying. <<
Here, you can hear them speaking, it's just unintelligible because its irrelevant and would be muddled with the nearby surf. MOS would have zero intelligible dialog. Once again, I'm being pretty darn specific.

>> I learned it as an old-time German director who sometimes filmed "mit out sound", but it probably stands for something much more mundane. <<
Learned the same thing, and "Nope", it has no official translation. It's a speculative acronym at best.
Now an industry standard that no one really cares what it means or meant - just do it.

>>  [Note:  I see you do use this later, but I think you are using it wrong -- nobody is talking(?)] <<
Correct, as it should be. I think.

Here's the first usage:
   Chieftain looks up from admiring his pretty new vest with
   brief concern. He turns his shoulder, looks back at the
   children along the shore.

    EXT. LONG SHOT OF SHORE - DAY
    M.O.S., A few Chontal warriors walk straight toward Marina
    and the boy.


We begin by seeing Chieftain, mid conversation, turning to look at the children 500 yards away.
The " EXT. LONG SHOT OF SHORE - DAY" camera shot, however, would be from maybe 200 -300 yards away (similar to the bell tower sniper's POV scene in Saving Ryan's Privates) and you're not going to be able to hear conversations at the scene of activity.
I'm pretty sure I'm using it correctly, and am certainly interested in understanding if I'm not.

>> And once again, during the trade talks, you give too many extraneous details. <<
I'm getting murdered on those, aren't I?
Working on it.

>> When the Chieftess reveals the trade for Marina, we do not yet know who that is.  She has not been called by name.  Some may surmise who it is, but better to be clear.  Have someone call her by name earlier, on the beach. <<
Yeah, I gotta figure out some way of being consistent.
Sometimes I request the audience to be spoon fed.
Other times I expect the audience to use their brains.
There's been only one young female given any camera attention to, only one young female the other tribe toted off and only one young female referenced to of "fertile age" presented - but a fair number of the WalMart DVD gobbling audience is probably too stupid to follow.
I suspect The New World didn't go over well with that demographic.
Fair enough. Point made.

>> Is she passive, defiant, smart, innocent, devious? <<
I failed to show these at the beach, eh? Understood.

>> To draw us into another episode, these types of questions must be answered. <<
That's the point.
She's meat.
Step father automatically assumes her own mother sold her off as a sacrifice.
As if that was acceptable.
Even I don't know if he's more surprised that he didn't see that coming or if her own mother would sell her for such a  purpose.
??
H3ll. Mom sold her off without a hug and a kiss, let alone sending her with any belongings.
History documents La Malinche as one thing.
The intent of this story suggests that maybe... the kid got f#cked over herself.

Thank you very much, Bert.
Your constructive points are always welcome and sincerely appreciated.
Additionally, I appreciate you pounding out a refinement of format & style.



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RayW
Posted: August 19th, 2010, 2:25am Report to Moderator
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Thank you, Screenrider!

>> This one for me wins the prize for one of the most strangest topics I've ever read since I've been here at SS. <<
LOL!
Whuuut?
No axe murderers?
No bleeding, nubile co-ed running through the forest?
No ghosts of drowned daughters past?

Yeah, if you guys don't run me out of town with pitchforks and torches I'll lump a lot of history's overlooked tid-bits in your lap.



>> It's just seems like such an odd undertaking to retell the story of this La Malinche. <<
Oh, noooo.
To regurgitate "what is known" (even the obscure "known") would be an undertaking if not an absolute bore of wasting time.
However, to propose a reconsideration of what we "think" we know, well... that can be a lot more fun!

As I brought up with Bert, above, Terrence Malick's The New World depiction of Pocahontas considerably differs from Disney's Pocahontas depiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_World_(film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas_(1995_film)
Likewise...

>> It was a bold move and you've succeeded in introducing me to a page in history that I obviously slept through in class. <<
Thank you, and in your defense I'm pretty sure only if you were educated in Mexico or Central America would you have ever heard of her.
I ran across the story while researching petroglyphs of ancient aliens.
(Ask me someday about King Pakal's Rocket Ride!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K'inich_Janaab'_Pakal

I spend a lot of time researching fact and fiction.

>> Apply changes like you did in Guardians of Mayfair you'll be fine. <<
What?
Guardians?
Never heard of it.

>> Warning: Tanis is evil.     Steer clear of her. <<
That ain't gonna be no wackiness like a print version of The Ring, is it?

<object width="640" height="385">



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mcornetto
Posted: August 19th, 2010, 3:38am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from RayW

What I'm getting at is there is a strong difference between what it appears a script reader wants and what a film director needs, and finding that balance is proving difficult for me.


A reader wants a story - nothing else.  So does the director.   They both want the same thing.  The director should be deciding shots, where sounds come in, etc - not you.  
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sniper
Posted: August 19th, 2010, 4:41am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto
The director should be deciding [...] where sounds come in, etc - not you.

In the movie, sure, but not in the script. If you need a sound to enhance your story/scene/setting then by all means use it - but don't write "SFX", write the sound instead (and I think that was what Bert was referring to - not sound in general).

Most sounds in a movie will be SFX anyway so no need to state the obvious.



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sniper
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Quoted from mcornetto
Did you crack open the script?

Of course. What's you point?




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mcornetto
Posted: August 19th, 2010, 7:57am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from sniper

Of course. What's you point?



My point is that sounds should be left up to the director, especially environmental sounds like that one, and beyond mentioning the critical ones you shouldn't do anything special to highlight them in a script.  What's important is getting your story across, not,  as many people believe, what you see on the screen.

Michael    

EDIT:  I should qualify this with the addendum...in a visual manner with language as terse as possible.

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screenrider  -  August 19th, 2010, 9:02pm
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sniper
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Well, I completely disagree with you, Michael. In my opinion, sounds (when they serve a point of course) are just as important as the visuals in both film and script format, and if you need to highlight them then you should do that.


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RayW
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Internet dredgings:

The shooting script for Cellular... written by Larry Cohen with revisions by J. Mackey Gruber and Eric Bress, contains something I haven’t seen or noticed before in a screenplay, actual references to special effects for sound, such as:

SFX: BZZZZZZZZTT!!

SFX: HONK-HONK!!

SUDDENLY -- SFX: RYAN’S PHONE BEGINS BEEPING
It appears no longer is it good enough to simply mention the sound or underline it, you now make it a special effect. (Note to beginner screenwriters, I'm joking.) And, of course, we’ve all seen screenwriters make references to computer generated special effects in their scripts, that’s been going on for years.
http://www.screenwritersutopia.com/modules.php?name=Content&file=print&pid=2717

SFX = sound effects
SFX tells the sound people an effect is needed.
SFX: The BLAST of a train whistle
http://www.screenwriting.info/13.php

Question
What sound effects should I capitalize? If someone CLAPS LOUDLY or LAUGHS, do I capitalize them or is it just for explosions and things of that magnitude?
Answer
If you're writing a new screenplay, you might want to ignore the utilization of sound effects.  They could be changed several times before your screenplay is produced.  Also, you can appear amateurish if you use sound effects, you're a screenwriter, not the director, or a sound technician.  
Focus on writing your screenplay.  Keep it lean and mean, so that readers can move rapidly through it.  ALL CAPS, with the exception of when you introduce characters, can be disconcerting to readers.  If you need to point out a sound, simply write, A bell rings.  Or, a Hummer backfires.  Or, the group laughs.  Or, Alfred claps.  Avoid using adjectives.  Just write in simple sentences.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Writing-Plays-Screenwriting-677/screenwriting-format.htm

Character Intros/Sound Effects/Special Effects/Camera Instructions
In a screenplay, all of these are written in all caps. In a sitcom teleplay, they are capitalized and underlined.
http://www.screenstyle.com/screenvssits.html

Here's a nail in the coffin:
SFX (Sound Effects)
Indicates sound effects, no longer used.
http://flixer.com/kb/2010/screenwriting-terms-and-language


Okey doke.
Anyone there in SS-land wear glasses?
You know how you "think" you can see fine before a new prescription, well...
I just got a new prescription on sound effects.

ALL CAPS, minimal description i'tis.
(And no "etc.s" either).



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sniper
Posted: August 19th, 2010, 8:36am Report to Moderator
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Ray,

Shooting scripts and spec scripts are two very different entities. Your "normal" shooting script will usually have a lot of technical directions, such SFX as well as camera angles and what not. Spec scripts should not include any technical directions (unless absolutely necessary).

Iro. which sounds to cap? Those that matters. Like, if you wanna create a shock effect for example or build tension or the like.

Btw. I will comment on your script but I'm at work and those damn phones keep ringing - TSK TSK TSK.


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RayW
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To Mike: Thank you.

To Michael:
>> What's important is getting your story across, not,  as many people believe, what you see on the screen. <<
And that's where I've been fouling this up.
Been writing what "I see" and hear, in this case.
Just as a general wondering supposition: I suspect the industry gravitation to "Just write the d@mn story! Let us direct it!" may be a contributing factor to why so many poor movies are made. Just a theory.

To Sniper:
>> In my opinion, sounds (when they serve a point of course) are just as important as the visuals in both film and script format, and if you need to highlight them then you should do that. <<
I stand on your side of this line.
Audio may be one of the the more inexpensive elements to a theatrical release, but is statistically shown to carry between 40 to 50% of a film's impact upon an audience.
Sound  effects are very important despite being widely poo-pooed.
The subject/element should be given due attention.

Edit: >> Spec scripts should not include any technical directions (unless absolutely necessary). <<
Got it.




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RayW  -  August 19th, 2010, 9:29am
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Colkurtz8
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Ray

Interesting "origin" story you have here, a bombardment of natural images (that's Malick's "The New World" influence coming through methinks) to engulf us at the beginning giving us a real sense (and sound) of time and setting before allowing the story to take form and focusing on specific characters.

It's hard to sum up a work like this since it’s only really the beginning, all I can say on the basis of these 9 pages is to keep going, I'd be interested to see where this goes. I couldn't help thinking of Apocalypto at the end also when the Spanish galleons appeared on the shore.

"http://www.screenwritersutopia.com/modules.php?name=Content&file=print&pid=2717"

-- I clicked on the above link you posted, really dug the part on old and new school screenwriting books and how the gurus are more open to tinkering with convention nowadays. Couldn't agree more with the man's sentiments, hurray for diversity!

Col.


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Dreamscale
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Ray, I'm not sure where to begin here.  Hmmm, this is indeed a strange one.

A few people mentioned something about this being the beginning of a longer piece, but I don't see anywhere that you have acknowledged that.  If it's indeed an intro, I think you need to come right out and say that in your log, otherwise, IMO, this needs to be looked at as a short.

I'm going to be honest here again, and I'm not going to sugarcoat anything at all.

There are alot of problems going on here, IMO.  I don't have alot of time for details, but I will throw a few examples out for you.

OK, this is an 8 1/2 page script, and you start with a 1/2 page montage, which is just way too long, and doesn't really do anything at all.  It's not formatted correctly, IMO.  Your opening line with the SFX stuff is just a bad way to open up, especially with the "chirping/singing continue" line.  I mean, right off the bat, you've lost me here, bud.

You seem to want to write too much detail, almost to show off your knowledge, which just doesn't work in a spec script.  The stuff about the "Northern Caracara is a perfect example of this.  Just not necessary at all.

The constant use of various shots is so frowned upon and reads so poorly.

"Shorebirds tending their hatchings screech, run and fly away as several teen males and a few teen female Nahua Natives play along the shore." - This is a really poor sentence, Ray.  Very confusing, awkward.  When you first intro a character, you need to CAP their names, or whatever kind of name you use, whether proper or not.

The whole thing just has this been there/seen that feel to it.  The lack of names doesn't help at all.

All the stuff about exact # of beans over and over is just crazy.

I don't know how Bert didn't feel the speech on page 6 was way too long - it is!

As Col mentioned, this does have a feel of Apocolypto throughout, especially at the end.

It just didn't work for me on any level, Ray.  It's overwritten, underwritten, lacking story, awkward, overly "directed", over thought, and for me, just not effective.

It is better than Guardians of Mayfair, but that's not saying too much. I think you need to stop trying to impress and just write.  You seem like a smart guy, and potentially, a good writer.  Keep at it, and you'll get there.

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RayW  -  August 19th, 2010, 9:28pm
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