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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Know When to Hold Em: Companion to Scottish Lullab Moderators: bert
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  Author    Know When to Hold Em: Companion to Scottish Lullab  (currently 2020 views)
Don
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 10:52am Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Know When to Hold Em: Companion to Scottish Lullaby by Kevin Lenihan (leitskev) - Short - An after hours card game turns into high stakes horror. 17 pages - pdf, format


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Don  -  April 24th, 2011, 1:19pm
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jwent6688
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 2:54pm Report to Moderator
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pg. 7
discomfit - typo.

pg. 11
towell,

On page 12 the old woman says 30 seconds again, several seconds later....

I still like the tradition of a FADE TO BLACK to end scripts. I love the finality of it.

Damn, this is quite devious. My kind of script. I cringed a couple of times while reading it. That doesn't happen to me often.

Aside from the couple of typos I pointed out, I found it very well written. Kept picturing Mrs. Ganush here from Drag Me To Hell.

SPOILERS!!!!

My only complaint would be that I would like a clearer motive behind the Old Woman's actions. I didn't get who the ancient gods were. I wanted to see who won the game, hoping it would culminate into something. Maybe these bar patrons have all wronged her at some point. The poison was just a drug, but got everyone to deform themselves by revenge. Then she could have a nice final line while exiting.

I did like the supernatural way you took this though. And, the bag flying into the tunnel was a nice ending visual that made sense.

A solid recommend from me! Good work Kevin.

James


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leitskev
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 3:02pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks James.

A quick note on the genesis of this strange little piece. When I wrote Scottish Lullaby for the OWC, a common complaint was, "this isn't horror". So while that review process was still going on, I wrote this. I put it away unfinished, hoped I would think of a good ending for it. I didn't. So I just capped it pretty much as is!

You'll notice I even mentioned in some cases what cards people had. I was going to do more with that, then just didn't. I can always go back to it, but I didn't want to drag this out too long, and I sensed that's where it would go.

The bag at the end flies to a tunnel which is the connection to the next story in the series, coming soon to a theater near you.

Like I said, this was kind of written as a response, I just wanted to have a little fun with it. Hopefully it works for some people. If anyone has an ending idea, I'm game!
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Craiger6
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 3:08pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Kevin,

I really enjoyed this and thought it was very well done.  It was certainly twisted and a real page turner for me.  That said, I didn’t care for the ending.  Not because it wasn’t well written, but I needed more.  I suspect that others are going to tell you the same thing.  Still it was a terrific read.  I took some notes below as I was reading.  

***SPOILERS***

“The old woman, smiling, walks to the table, opens her purse. A peak inside reveals a COPPER FLASK, CASH, and a large pile of SKELETAL HUMAN FINGERS.”

Hey-oh.  I thought this was well done.  I like the idea of a “peek” (s/b PEEK BTW) inside the purse with the camera.  Also like the fact that you included such a grisly image.  Obviously, we already had an idea that this lady was not a regular old lady, but now you’ve confirmed it.

P. 5 –

BOYD
Medicine?
The old woman flashes a smile of pure evil.
OLD WOMAN
Antidote.


Ha – I enjoyed this.  Nicely done.

P. 7 - OLD WOMAN

I raise. One finger to call. Must be your own, of course.

Damn, this broad is hardcore!

P. 8

Dr Alastair slumps to the floor dead.

I’m not sure if you explain this later, but my initial thoughts while reading are that you might have to explain why Dr. Alastair dies so quickly while the others don’t.  I don’t know, it’s probably not intregal to the story, but it immediately popped into my head.  I think the Old Woman said they had roughly a half hour, so why does he kick the bucket so quick?

P. 12

GORDON

I would play, woman, if I were you. It is not my intention to use my antidote to save your fat arse.


Haha – dick!

P. 13

“Rhona sobs a moment, then stifles herself.”

I know you Irish are tough, but everyone seems to be handling this pretty well.  I think I would mix up the characters reactions to their predicament a bit.  By that I mina, maybe someone sobs uncontrollable or just can’t handle the pain.  I dunno, just a thought.

P. 14

“All at ounce, do not wait for the others.”

I believe this should be “All at ONCE…”

P. 14

“She rolls the eye into the pot.”

That’s kicking it up a notch!  Haha.

P. 15

“A HOWLING wind whips rain torrents on the deserted, broken street. A freight train SCHREECHES like an angry animal as it runs the tracks across from the Deidre. SCREAMS of pain leech through the pub door and join the cacophony.”

Nice job here.  Love the imagery.

P. 16

“The bag blows to a gate of iron bars, snags there. The bars block the entrance to an old sewer tunnel. The bag whistles as it blows against the bars, seeking entry to the tunnel.”

Again, love the imagery here, but can’t help but feel a little let down with this ending.  I’m glad that you didn’t put a “Fade Out” and “The End” cause’ I really think you should expand this just a little bit to give the audience some closure.

Yeah, so as I said, I really enjoyed this, but I think you ultimately need to give us some more closure.  I realize that you wan't to keep your Old Woman mysterious, but as James said, you need to give us a little insight into her motives.  Maybe also give her a name.

Anyway, thanks for the read, man.  Hoep this helps.

CR


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leitskev
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 3:24pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks Craig. You are probably right about the ending, so I'm waiting for an idea! Anyone? But as it is, I try to leave a lasting image about a horrible after hours card gamer.

Dr Alastair would have probably been fine had he not tried to flee. The combination of the stress from the poison and from trying to move caused his heart to fail. I had to do this to ratchet up the seriousness needed to get people to play the game.Not sure if I succeeded in that, but that's why the Dr died. And because he was annoying!

One of the points of the story too is how the predicament changes some of their behavior. Gordon is a dick to his wife, but this evolves by the end.

You might be right about the sobbing, but that it would be annoying if there's too much of that. As it is, there is some, and some swearing, and when they do the eyes, the camera hears screams outside. Best I could do.

Thanks for the read, and remember: don't take any free shots from old ladies!
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Ryan1
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 4:31pm Report to Moderator
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Kevin,

I liked this one.  Sort of like Rounders meets Saw meets Drag me to Hell.  That's what I call a bloody serious game of poker.  

As soon as the old hag whipped out her flask, I assumed it was poison.  In this day and age, I'm not sure anyone would take a belt from a complete stranger's flask, especially one that had old lady lips on it.  But, they were a few rounds into the game at that point and I guess no one wanted to look like a wuss by declining a shot, so I can believe that part.

On page 2, since we're in Scotland, shouldn't it be a hundred pounds to buy in and not dollars?

Unless I missed it, on page 4, Dr. Alistair deals the hand but you never tell us what the flop was.  You do reveal the turn card later is the Queen of spades, and you also reveal the hands of a couple of players.  But, you never really used the cards as a device to create tension.  I know not everyone understands the rules to hold em, but I think you could really use the cards to ratchet up the fear in the room.  Like who's bluffing and who's not.

One thing, and this is just IMO, but this poker game might be slightly overpopulated for a short script.  Seven players.  You have to burn through a lot of pages trying to get reactions from every single player.  Seems like Boyd and Irish could be combined into one guy.  Maybe lose either Rhona or  Fenella.  I just think that if it were, say three or four players, along with the old bag, you might be able to concentrate on developing those characters more and conserve space as you drive for the ending.

Between this script and those challenge scripts from last week, been seeing a lot of scooped out eyeballs round here.  Nice.

So, this script is in need of an ending.  I know what you were going for with the bag blowing in the wind, but that had an "American Beauty" feel to me and just didn't feel right for this grisly little piece.  I'd definitely show what the river card was and let the winner and owner get their antidotes and then maybe work some twist off of that.  If I think up a sick twist I'll let you know.

It's a very entertaining script and had a great flow to it.  I just think it could be tightened in those parts I mentioned and it deserves a better ending.  So great job with this one.

Ryan  
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Cirrus
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Hi Kevin,

PG 2 - You say a hundred dollar buy in but the story takes place in Scotland where the currency is pounds.

PG 13 - Rhona takes getting her finger chopped quite well doesn't she?

Most of my comments have already been said. The ending seems incredibly rushed and anti-climatic. Another thing to point out is some of the Pagan stuff could come across quite cheesy. I am a Scottish Pagan myself.

Overall it was a good read and sounds pretty gory!
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leitskev
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 5:25pm Report to Moderator
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Hey guys, thanks for the read.

Yeah, pounds not dollars! I missed that. Sorry UK people!

Everyone's right about the ending. In need of ideas. I couldn't think of anything I liked. And it has to be something that would allow me to keep this no more than 20.

Ryan knows his cards! Yes, there are three community cards in Holdem. So in this story, I guess the old woman just turns the last without another raise. I started out with the plan of making the cards relevant and just didn't have the space.

Holdem should have 6 players ideally. This had seven, but Dr Alastair dies. I had a purpose for the other characters, so I couldn't kill them. Rhona is shit on by her husband, but this changes as through the brutality of the game. He sees her hand before cutting the finger, starts to remember it fondly. By the end of the game he has his arm around her. Fenella showcases the selflessness of Brian, despite her not appreciating it. Possibly Irish and Boyd could be combined, but they're two different characters and I kind of like them.

I think the biggest issue with this script, one no one has mentioned, perhaps just being nice, is whether it's in any way believable that enough pressure was created to make these people cut off their own fingers, take out an eye. If not, the story fails hopelessly. If one can suspend disbelief enough to accept this, then it has a chance.

If I could not get people to buy into that, no sense working on fixing the rest. But if that is acceptable on the whole, then maybe it makes sense to fix the rest. The main thing for me is to learn what works and doesn't generally since I'm a new writer. So I posted! And thanks for the honest feedback.
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Ryan1
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 5:40pm Report to Moderator
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Kev,

I think the fact that no one cut off their finger until page 9 helped with the credibility in that.  Plus, they already saw the doctor die, so they knew the old witch wasn't bluffing.

I would suggest "upping the ante" though when it comes to gouging out the eyes.  And this could be a way to dispose of some of your players to thin out the cast.  Have a few more people drop dead from the poison.  This would certainly make things more urgent.  I think if by the final reveal of the river there were only three or so people left alive it would make things far more dramatic.
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grademan
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 6:16pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Kevin,

This was good:

The old lady is a major character and deserves a name.

I had a hard time believing the people would self-mutilate with out more threat than one guy dropping over dead.   A body or two along the way would help.

The ancient gods like Texas Hold Em?

The old lady talked a lot but could have said or done a few things to add some quirkiness to her character. I thought she needed something more.

Why did she pick this bar?

Can the shadow man take people only if they're poisoned?

Gary

Good job!!

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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 6:38pm Report to Moderator
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I enjoyed this as well.

The people's decision to injure themselves so badly did stretch credibility to some degree. The death helps to ease misgivings over that (perhaps it would help if the death was more gruesome as well). It would also perhaps help to see someone test the futility of attacking her at some point. When someone got desperate, I'm sure they'd have a go at overpowering her.

As for the ending. Have you ever heard it said that if you can't find the right ending, the problem is usually the beginning?

Well you have now anyway. The essential problem I think is demonstrated by looking at why she's doing this:

She's come in to get a sacrifice for Old Gods...but why go through this rigmarole of a poker game...why not just let them die?

What is the game of poker itself supposed to reveal about the inner characters of the players? Who is it that the Gods would want as the sacrifice? What would that person represent? What does that tell us about the human condition?

There are different ways of playing poker. There are the bluffers (liars?), the aggressive bulliers of the pot, conservative players, etc. Each represents a philosophy on life if you will. The person who wins should be the person who plays the game right, rather than them all being forced to play the same way IMO....so maybe more than one hand can be played and also...it doesn't have to be your own fingers that you play with.

So the person who "wins" the game of poker, may not be the winner in the real game here, which is kind of a fight for their soul.

EG: The bar owner, realising he loves his wife, proposes a raise that the woman willl have to follow....his heart. His wife is on his right which means that everyone else will die save for his wife.

Or kills himself that that the person preceding the woman can raise his whole body, which means she would have to die to continue.

Within that there are a few choices eg it works. Or his very suggestion results in the end of the game...he's passed the test somehow.

Downbeat: An aggressive, self-cented player wins the game. The manner of his victory in some way leaves him cursed and foreced to assume the role of the woman somehow or something like that, constantly forced to gamble his body for all eternity. Or he wins, but then the Shadow buys into the game...making some sort of point of the futility of his way of playing.

Hopefully there's somethign in there that can inspire a few neurons anyway...

Rick
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leitskev
Posted: April 24th, 2011, 7:59pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks for the read Gary and Rick.

The Why: Why did she pick this bar? What does she want? What do the Gods want?

The old woman spells out much of this in her last statement:

One more card. Who lives and who dies,
all in the hands of the gods! As
always, they are grateful for your
having played

Basically, as with the gods of the Greeks, we are here for their amusement. How far will we go to save our skin? What can we be made to do? They enjoy playing with us. And in this case, these are neglected gods, so they are jealous and vindictive. That is why she, and they, play the game. Dark entertainment for immortal beings.

Those suggestions are all good, Rick, and I considered many similar things when writing. I was actually setting up for it. The problem was that I realized to execute that I would need to make this a 40 pager, and I didn't think it was worth it. So I decided that it was not such a bad thing to leave people with the impression of a brutal, evil poker game taking place after hours in a dark little dive bar in a bleak neighborhood in Scotland. Sometimes it's not a bad thing to leave people wondering how things resolve. Have you ever seen a movie where they tie everything together in the end, but it almost seems like it would have been better if they had not? If someday, someone driving late at night by a closed pub thinks of this story, then I've accomplished something.

I like thematic stuff, but there's no real moral to this one. We see some character development and revelation. Irish regrets the way he's lived his life. Boyd remains cocky, but it drives him mad. Fenella is a player to the end. And she's the hottie, we need one of them! Brian's the good guy willing to sacrifice for his love. Gordon rediscovers his affection for his wife. It makes the audience ask: could you cut the finger off of a loved one to save their life?

You guys have given great feedback and food for thought. Unless someone ever approaches me about filming, I'll probably just leave it as is. It was a fun piece to do, and in my mind now, that little pub called Deidre's really exists. I might stop in for a pint some day!
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wonkavite
Posted: April 25th, 2011, 6:57am Report to Moderator
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Hi Kev -

Congrats!  Actually, liked this one considerably more than Scottish Lullaby.  

Why?  Well, because it was a much more clean-cut story.. . I know you like to keep things vague and mysterious in your plot lines - and I'm not saying that an interest in subtlety is a bad thing.  But this one offered the best of both.  

You don't speak out black-and-white what the old woman is.  But neither is anything in question, regarding what's going on.  Another plus: it's painful, gory and effective...without resorting to the usual slasher porn that passes for much of horror these days.

Kudos!

If I wanted to nitpick *anything*, I'd simply say that the ending was a tad too vague and visual.  Strip one or two lines (while keeping the same feel) and leave it at that.  
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Dressel
Posted: April 25th, 2011, 11:52am Report to Moderator
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Kevin,

I haven't read Scottish Lullaby, but it doesn't really seem like I had to.  I was able to follow along with the story just fine, but if any of my critiques stem from not having read the previous short, please let me know.

I was excited to read this for two reasons: 1) I like stories that center around poker, and 2) I've been itching to read something of yours seeing as you do so much reading on the boards.

At first, I wasn't really on-board with the story. The characters seemed kind of off for some reason.  When someone writes an Irish character (or some other dialect), I usually give pause to lines like Might I just have a wee bit of whiskey to warm me bones..  Now, is this actually how people talk, or have I just been inundated with movies and TV that tell me this is how they talk?  I don't know.  Because of that, most of the OLD WOMAN'S dialogue fell kind of flat for me.

THAT BEING SAID

Once the story kicked into high gear with the introduction of the poison/antidote, my interest severely piqued.  It was such an intriguing premise and when you upped the ante (heh.) with the finger cutting stuff, that's when I started to really like the story.

NOW, THAT BEING SAID

I started to realize, as the people started dying and the wages started rising, I didn't really care about any of the characters.  After all, they had all been introduced so quickly (in one line one page 2).  Sure, the stakes were awesome, but I didn't have anyone to root for.  They were all just a bunch of low-lifes, and it became apparent very early on that I didn't care about any of them.

Don't take all of this to mean that I hated the script, because I didn't.   I just think it could be tightened up (drastically shortened, actually.  Maybe even lose some characters, because the cutting the fingers thing goes on way too long), and given a little more depth.  But who knows, I might be in the minority, because others seemed to enjoy it quite a bit.  Those are just my two cents.

-Matt


CHECK OUT MY WEB SERIES

The Pilot is Dead

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leitskev
Posted: April 25th, 2011, 1:01pm Report to Moderator
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Janet and Matthew, thanks for the read.

Janet, not sure which part of the ending you are referring to. If you are referring to the bag blowing in the wind, it is a little out of place, but there's a reason for it. I have a third part to this series of stories that uses the same setting, and the tunnel the bag blows to has relevance, so I wanted to connect to it. Actually, the tunnel also connects to Lullaby too, if you recall.

If you're referring to how the game ends, which we don't see, I am open to resolving this at some future point, and welcome any idea you might have, so fire away if you think of any. But I don't think it's necessarily a problem leaving the ending as is. When all is said and done, there will be three, maybe four, little shorts that are independent stories, but take place in the same setting as Lullaby. Now I may not be a good enough writer to pull this off yet, but the goal is to create a little world, the blighted neighborhood called "the Hills", which as far as I know is imaginary,  that leaves a lasting, spooky impression. I am hoping the cumulative effect of the stories achieves that.

Some of these stories will be more thematic then others. This one is not very thematic. So for me it just serves to help flesh out this little imaginary Glasgow world.

Matthew, true, this story is independent of Lullaby, so need to read SL to understand. The old woman is a central character in both, but they stand apart. And as it is, they are very different stories. Lullaby is very cryptic and thematic and few understood it. This was an attempt at more straight horror.

Let's talk about dialogue. First, I am really surprised that a few seem to think these people are all Irish. It takes place in Glasgow, but that is probably not indicated. In any case, one character is called Irish, which indicates that the one place this story cannot be is in Ireland.

But your point is well taken, and as a new writer learning how to handle a wide range of issues, this might be the top of my list, and to be honest, I'm not seeing consistent advice on SS as far as how to handle it. So I'm a little stuck. If you don't put dialect in the language, people call them flat. If you do, they call them cliche. That's been the general gist of the argument. In this case, you called them both flat AND cliche. So I am definitely stuck on how to approach.

I actually think cliche is a word or a criticism that is not well applied generally in reviews on SS. For example, if one writes a baseball movie, and there's a dramatic home run, at least half the reviews will criticize it as cliche. I'm tempted to do that just to prove it. But a baseball movie without a dramatic home run is like a love story without a kiss. It just goes together.

Now this lady is not only Scottish, but old. It seems very conceivable that she would talk that way. Is it cliche? Well, if I make that dialect sound authentic, isn't that automatically going to be cliche? You will notice that I didn't overdo that dialect, and as Irish is young, I didn't weigh him down with a heavy brogue.

You bring up some other interesting general points, Matthew. For example the idea that there might be too many characters, and how to introduce them. I actually posted a few weeks ago asking for opinions on how best to do this. If we're going to limit how many characters we have in a script, man, we're really limiting what can be done in film. No baseball or football movies, only boxing; warfare movies will have to limited, since we can't have a patrol with more than a few characters; and a card game can only have a few players.

Of course it is difficult to connect an audience to characters in general. And the fewer the characters, the easier the task. In this story, there is no real protagonist, so that really hurts. But they're all lowlifes? Hmm. Brian is more concerned about his girlfriend, and has made clear he will give his antidote to her. Not sure why he deserves to be called a lowlife. Irish is polite, and by the end of the story regrets the way he has lived. But, this is an after hours card game in a seedy bar in a blighted neighborhood. I would not be expecting Ward and June Cleaver.

Again, thank you very much for the read. I hope I don't sound too defensive. To me, the biggest problem I thought people would have with this is whether sufficient pressure was created to cause the players to do what they did. And I knew the lack of resolution would be a problem. Sometimes some of the other criticisms, such as flat dialogue, I see so often in pretty much every review on SS that the criticism itself is almost becoming cliche to me.

I will take all of your advice to heart Matthew, and hopefully do better in future scripts. This was my second short, so hopefully there will be a growth curve, especially on dialogue. And remember: if you're ever in Glasgow, stay away from after hours card games!
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