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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Drama Scripts  ›  Our Problem in Vegas Moderators: bert
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  Author    Our Problem in Vegas  (currently 3461 views)
Don
Posted: July 21st, 2012, 6:21am Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Our Problem in Vegas by Simon (sicoll007) - Drama - A cop is deployed to investigate corruption in Vegas. 88 pages - pdf, format


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CoopBazinga
Posted: July 21st, 2012, 7:33am Report to Moderator
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Hey Simon,

Good to see a feature from you, Mr. Calligan.

I’ll be sure to give this read in the next few days and give you some of my thoughts.

I just took a quick glimpse at the first few pages and your use of mini’s intrigues me, just like “Visit” it feels like wasted space sometimes and that is just the first page I’ve read. I wonder at 88 pages how short this could be if they were taken away. Obviously I don’t know if it continues like this but just thought I would throw that out quickly.

I understand this is your preference which I can appreciate.

Anyway, more to follow…

Cheers.

Steve
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Cheers Coope.

I'm probably overusing the mini's to be honest & in hindsight - I should pull back on them.

Cheers for the read - this script is up really 'cos it ain't right - I began it last year and it was lying around unfinished, so I finished it off recently, and thought it'd stick it up - I don't think I've got the characters over well -- not too sure really - there's bits I like and bits that I'm uhm... not sure about
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CoopBazinga
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Hey Simon,

I had a couple of hours to kill before the big derby between the Eagles and the Dockers so gave this a read. Sorry it took me a little while to get onto this, as I have been meaning to.

Like your recent shorts, the writing does lack in some areas, setting of your scenes for one which makes visualizing your script very difficult at times. Also the use of mini’s which is odd but I’m glad to say that they wasn’t uses as often as I thought after that first page.

I personally thought the slugs were a tad weak and you didn’t make use of the great location in which this story is set. I mean you have a story set in Vegas which is made up of famous casinos, bright lights and some possible eccentric people but most scenes took place in a diner, office, car, nightclub etc. Just felt like you could have used the setting to your advantage here and brought some life to your story. Missed opportunity IMO.

It’s a fast read but this mostly down to this being a very dialogue heavy script and when I say dialogue, I mean short dialogue. Characters always tend to interrupt one another and this leads to a fast but confusing read. There is nothing wrong with dialogue heavy scripts but here it felt like most were speaking in code, not wanting to reveal what is actually happening which can be a problem when there isn’t a lot of action to move the story along. We’re reading this dialogue for exposition but most of the time I was just being confused by their conversations. If anything it became more confusing as the story moved along like characters who knew what was happening suddenly didn’t like Hoolan and Belgan.

Also seemed to be a lot of superfluous chatter like ordering drinks in scenes and character’s repeating words to one another.

So let’s move onto the story and like I say, for 75% I was pretty bemused because I couldn’t figure out who was with who? Obviously most of it became clear at the end but some things still felt unresolved. I really don’t know what to add, everyone seemed to be outdoing the other and I’m still actually unsure to be honest as to who was the one who came out on top. It’s definitely not Pincher but otherwise, yeah not sure.

Shipyard was your protag but I have no idea what his motivation was or to be fair who he was? What his background is or why he’s accepted to go undercover in Vegas? There was a slight hint of a past relationship with Ellie but that never came into play or was explored. He actually doesn’t get a lot to do in the last thirty pages and overall fell very flat, he needs a lot more for me at the moment, apart from his name which I like. He’s very forgettable.

Pincher and Petroso felt like the big bosses at first, mobster types but both became nervous wrecks by the end. I mean we didn’t really get to see them do a lot other than drink and talk…can’t remember anything of the top of my head where they imposed themselves onto the story…again forgettable.

Ellis was confusing, she was someone from Shipyard’s past which was a good start but then she just spoke to the two cops from out of town. The big large box in the warehouse scene still confuses the hell out of me? At first she wanted nothing to do with this situation, I mean Shipyard called her in for help because he thought he was being set-up but by the end she was telling the cops all about Shipyard’s operation…what changed? Why is she telling on Shipyard?

Which brings me onto Hoolen and Belgan…these guys were not doing it for me at all I’m afraid. They came off as stupid to me and kept talking like they had no idea what was going on? I wondered if they even knew why they’re in Vegas sometimes. They’re partners but they talked like they were strangers, and when they did speak on sync, it was kinda creepy.

Other characters came and went like Brown and Oasis but didn’t have much of an impact…maybe Oasis should have come in earlier in the piece as he actually has a big hand in the final reveal.

Like I say, what really was lacking for me was character motivations, and none more so than Shipyard who as a protag for me needs some more substance to carry this along.

I know you had an idea to keep the reader in the dark about the plot but for me this backfired because it meant it come off confusing. I think you could reveal certain aspects to the reader like if Shipyard is being set-up then have a scene with Hoolan and Pincher talking about this…it would bring us into the story instead of all the puzzles and what not.

I mean it’s okay for the characters not to know but for us the reader to not know either isn’t great. And the final twist if you can call it that didn’t really save the day but I was surprised to learn about Petroso, made me wonder if the cops would do that though?

If I learnt anything, it’s that Vegas has great coffee and there was plenty of it on display here. Get Starbucks in on a commercial deal.

So overall it wasn’t for me I’m afraid, just too much dialogue which didn’t push the story forward and the story was too confusing for me. Maybe you could shed some light on certain aspects to me?

Here are some notes I took during the read:

P.1 Where's my "fade in"... I really don't understand why peeps are taking this out but again, this may go into preference territory.

A really confusing opening which leaves a few questions…wouldn't have minded some more visuals of the cafe.

Some of the lines are coming across a tad awkward in this opening passage, I personally think you were so concentrated on your mini-technique that you've made what should have been a straight-forward line more difficult to read. Hope that makes sense. Like:

"A HOOD makes toward the exit -- as he moves, behind him, he
reveals a --

DEAD MAN"

Could have been:

A Hood makes toward the exit. Reveals a DEAD MAN slumped in the booth behind him.

"lying slumped in a booth." If he's lying in the booth then wouldn't the table hide him from view. Again because of no visuals of the actual cafe, I'm unsure of the positioning this is all taking place.

"squad car screeches" Are we seeing the squad car? We're still in the cafe? Maybe it has full-size windows? Not sure? Sirens are okay but it could be an ambulance or fire engine...this scene needs to be clearer for me.

So the cops have burst into the cafe but then the hood's holding the door? So did he open the door for them or did they smash it open into him?

"GUN" I have no idea why this is on its own in a mini? Did the hood walk out or is he still holding the door open?

Third "GUN" in half a page - what type of guns are these? Hopefully this means lots of gun action.

All very mysterious in the car scene, basically saw nothing other than hands. Wasn't even aware there was a passenger until one exited.

“shirt-sleeves” Was this supposed to be short-sleeves? I find it a random description to tell me someone has shirt sleeves.

Both cops again didn’t have a lot of description. One is suited holding shades in an office while the other has shirt-sleeves…not a lot to go on.

P.2 “We have a problem in Vegas.” Hence the title…we’re moving fast. I like it.

Did Hoolan move to the projector or was it right beside him? It was in the rear of the room before?

I think you could add a visual of the projector, show us Jack Pincher on the screen which would help break up this scene.

P.3 “Belgan lean over Tom.” Should be leans.

P.5 It’s a fast read but very dialogue heavy and I mean short, direct dialogue.

Some of the dialogue reads very cheesy like when they’ll talking about playing chess…just doesn't read like cops I’ve ever seen.

P.6 “VEGAS” Vegas is in the slug so how would we know it’s in Vegas? Maybe a SUPER is needed. Where were the guys before? Why is Vegas their problem?

Again, a lack of visuals in Luigi’s bar. Tom basically walks to the counter…that’s it.

“Are you visiting, or are you resident here.” Missing question mark but this read wrong to me. “Are you visiting, or do you live here?” Or at least change “resident” to residing.

P.7 “men” Cap men on first intro or at least one of them, he gets to talk so should be capped IMO.

“a  RADIO CRACKLING.” Extra space here.

“He appears to be talking into his sleeve.” Why “appears”? He is talking into his sleeve.

P.8 the story’s moving fast but it leaves me with a few questions at the moment.

It’s moving so fast that it seems like characters know answers before the question is even asked.

Shipyard’s line: “Does he know that I’m monitoring
him? How much does he know?”

Is he talking about Pincher? Just a second ago they saying about Pincher sussing him out but how? Now he’s asking the guys he just told about “thinking he’s been sussed” about how much Pincher knows?

P.9 “He’s made first move” Missing “the” after made.

“He’s on to us.” They actually don’t know this. All he did was asked him if he’d seen the sights.

Just a thought, would cops investigate other cops? I thought that would be an “internal affairs” job.

P.10 “BAR” Is this a different bar? If not then why didn’t you call it blue hoarding? It’s good to be consistent.

“how’s it going.” Missing question mark.

“Pincher, surprised, turns to see Shipyard.” I would change this to “Surprised, Pincher turns to see Shipyard.” Breaks up the repetitive use of Pincher to start a sentence. Just a thought.

I just suddenly thought… Shipyard calls Pincher by name but were they ever introduced to one another? We never saw it on their first meeting?

“Saw you in here.” Again without any visuals I’m not sure how? Again are there big windows to look in through?

“Bar-man” and “tender” why not just bartender?

P.12 “co-incidence” Have never seen a hyphen in coincidence.

“You just so happen make small talk” Missing “to” after happen.

“Shipyard marches down the sidewalk.” I’ve seen do this a couple of times now…might want to mix it up.

P.13 Is this the same hotel room as before? It’s funny that you’ve set the scene on the second visit rather than the first.

P.14 “Tom gets up” This caught me off guard. Throughout in the action he’s been called Shipyard but suddenly changed to Tom here.

“Shipyard and Pincher march along the sidewalk.” Yeah, these guys love marching down sidewalks.

“leans only to a tacky nightclub” typo, leans should be leads.

P.16 I think you might need to change to an INT. scene before using the mini’s.

“a PUNK BLOND(MAY, 20’s), exits the door. She’s a care-free delinquent with some attitude.” She got more of a description than your main players so far? I wouldn’t tighten this line because it actually gives a nasty orphan which takes you to 5 lines.

Also “blond” should be blonde I believe.

P.18 “Shipyards” Take off the “s” at the end of Shipyard.

“looks” Watch out for this one, try to mix it up a bit.

P.19 “INT. NIGHTCLUB – NIGHT” a different nightclub or still Dan’s allnite nightclub? This is why it’s good to be consistent as I’m unsure?

“the Punk Blond.” Why not May? You gave her a name.

“a  number.” Another spot with an extra space.

P.20 “The GUY” You’ve capped him but not on first intro?

P.21 “Pinches” typo, should be Pincher.

P.24 “Walk straight down, then look for you left.” I think “for you” should be “to your”. Also, how would Petroso know exactly where Shipyard is? He never said and they’re on the phone?

P.25 Look at this page and how many paragraphs start with Shipyard, doesn’t look good on the page IMO.

“for this crap you putting me through” you should be your.

“hell of sorry bitch” Missing “a” after of.

P.26 “I’m going to kill you next” Huh? Next? After who?

“Shipyards” Again with the “s” on Shipyard.

“Pertoso” Another typo, should be Petroso.

P.27 “I lent it to looks good.” “Looks” should be look.

“Shipyard in the driving seat.” Why would Shipyard be in the driver’s seat and Hoolan in the passenger seat in Hoolan’s car?

“Hoolan’s got an expression on his face like someone
simultaneously broke uber-bad wind whilst asking him to
solve Faucault’s missing theorum.”

Now that’s an expression. Think you mean “Foucault’s missing theorem” I looked it up.

“I hung around while they got it off.” Wait a minute…so he hung around while Lynch’s boys took the grenade off, the same guy who wants to kill him. Sounds odd.

P.28 “she’s being watched.” In her own office? Why doesn’t she just close the door?

“A warm evening” Show us…have the characters talk about the weather, summer attire, anything to get this across visually.

“balcony.” There is no need to repeat information, we know we’re on the balcony from the slug.

“hu?” Is this supposed to he “huh”

P.34 A lot if “sipping” and “gulping” of coffees over the last few pages. I have to be honest and say I’m a little lost at the moment?

They wanted Shipyard to investigate Pincher but he’s now trying to get in with Petroso while it seems Pincher is working with Hoolan and Belgan to set-up Shipyard. What for I have no idea? I still am unsure what Pincher’s role is? He seems to be nothing, not really involved.

P.34 Is Shipyard on screen here in the mayor’s office? He was never mentioned yet he’s talking? You might want to just throw in a few lines before he speaks. It’s hard to visualise if you didn’t know he was there.

“You like bold?” What does he mean?

P.35 “He was too expensive?” This conversation between the mayor and Shipyard is repeated info. I found out why he stopped using Petroso on the balcony before.

P.36 “My ass is a market force.” No idea what this means.

What’s happening here? Juliano will just take Petroso back because Shipyard asked nicely? There has been no mention of actually lowering the price…I wonder why Pincher couldn’t handle this if it was this easy.

Maybe I was premature…the trusty grenade is out.

“He places it in front of Juliano – on Juliano’s desk.” Don’t think you need all this. Either one would have sufficed on its own.

“I know you very well.” Found this a funny line. If Juliano knows him so well, why did Shipyard ask if he knows him? How does he know him…I thought they just met?  Maybe it’s his reputation but that came about fast…how long has he been in town?

“Shipyard leans” Another one to watch, people like leaning so far.
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CoopBazinga
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Continuing on:

P. 37 This scene felt disjointed, they spoke like they knew each other but the last comment makes me they didn’t?

“Hoolan’s in some seriously deep thought.” Didn’t like this line, reads awkward.

I also love the fact that Belgan isn’t bothered…he should just go home.

“INT./EXT. PETROSO’S APARTMENT / PARK – DAY”

A little bit different…so it’s all cutting into one another. It read awkward for me but I do think it’s something that would work better on screen rather than on the page.

P.38 “I’ve never said healthy.” Should this be “I never said healthy” I’m sure he’s said it sometime in his life. Why would you even say that to describe a grenade? This Belgan character comes off very dumb at times.

Then Hoolan says “Do you know me?” which just made me laugh. How long of these guys been partners?

“Punk Blond, also known as PHEBE BROWN (26)” huh? What happened to May? Why two punk blonde’s?

P.39 “Brown lounges in a booth” And then Shipyard walks in but this whole scene is taking place outside the diner according to the slug.

“Anything exiting?” Typo, exciting. And again in Shipyards dialogue straight after “that depends on what you call exiting.”

“Mmm. Helpful.” Mmm. Sarcastic. It made me laugh though.

Some dialogue is just pure idle chatter…a part here with the waitress and ordering coffee. You could of just ended the scene before that sequence.

“Hoolan and Belgan have burgers and coffees.” That is all that these two do. Eat and drink coffee. Isn’t there boss wondering where they are? How long have they been gone from where it is they work?

P.42 “(bemused)” You could get rid of this parenthetical and the other “(Also bemused)” Just have it in the action – “they both turn, bemused”

“Hooland” typo, should be Hoolan.

P.43 “No. We’re from out of town.” I wish they would mention where they’re from? I think it’s kinda of important as to why Vegas is there problem.

P.44 “It’s very, like a beautiful day for a day trip.” Reads awkward.

Just have Ellie ask once “call your office” no need to repeat it.

P.45 Well what a lovely conversation, they were all just so happy to “meet” each other. This scene needs a little tweaking for me, some of the dialogue was so unnatural and awkward.

P.46 So you describe Petroso’s bedroom and then Petroso sits on a couch with a coffee table in front? Is this taking place in the bedroom or the living room? Funny place for a couch and coffee table.

“you loose” should be lose. And game should be games.

What audience is Petroso talking to?

P.48 “one of the tall” or “one was tall” reads a lot better.

“Shipyard nods his head.” Take off “his head” nods is enough.

P.49 “The two youth” should be youths.

P.50 “INT. LUIGI’S BAR - VEGAS – DAY” Must be that auto slug thing on your software. Just wondered why have Vegas in your slug here but not only any other one except this exact slug near the beginning. Like I say, must be a software thing.

“It’s a bright day” How do we know this inside the bar?

“Tom’s” Sudden change to Tom here instead of Shipyard.

P.51 “built a resume.” Think you mean “build a resume” or “I was hoping to have built a resume.”

“amatuer” should be amateur.

“skills  anywhere.” Extra space. I’m not sure what Shipyard means by this?

P.52 And again with the ordering of a coffee in a scene, and the bartender has to ask him twice.

That was quite a sloppy scene, Simon. Felt rushed…I wonder if this was added in last minute?

Huh!? Why is Hoolan, Belgan and Ellie talking in Petroso’s office? Where is Petroso?

P.53 “break and enter.” So they’ve all broke into Petroso’s office and are sitting around casually helping themselves to the whisky.

“At a know gangster” Should be known. Also as far as I can tell, he isn’t well known…that’s the whole point right? They don’t know who this guy is?

“hinmself.” Another typo.

P.54 Look at all the questions your characters are asking on the top of this page:

What are you doing in town?

What’s your connection with Shipyard?

How come you know Petroso?

How come you broke into his office?

Pincher? Where does he fit in?

How come the mayor rolled over so easy?

What really concerns me is not just that the characters have no idea but me the reader doesn’t yet either. I don’t think I know the answer to one of these questions and I’m 54 pages in.

“Hooland” typo.

“colas” Think this should be cola’s. And here they are eating and drinking again.

P.55 “Don’t know yet. Haven’t done it.” Yep, that’s fair enough. Pretty hard to tell if a plan is going to work if you haven’t done it yet.

“Belgans follows.” Should be Belgan follows.

“fat” Try to calm down on the repetitive use of this in a sentence, three times in a row.

And then you call him “fats” Love it.

“I saw you neat ass.” You should be your.

P.56 “I want you to strip for your little girl.” Really? I hope she’s being sarcastic.

“Hope he’s in.” Hoolan and Belgan really are the best of the best aren’t they. They’re coming off very comedic at times and I don’t think you intended them to.

“Heys guys.” Just Hey.

“INT. LOUCHE STRIP-CLUB DAY” This slug is missing a hyphen before day unless the strip-club has changed name.

P.57 A lot of “ass” in the dialogue here. Owing “ass”, calling “ass” whipping “ass”. They like ass I’m guessing.

“how my going to stop” should this be “how am I going to stop”

“lens” typo, should be leans.

P.58 “INT. HOTEL ROOM – DAY” Something’s going wrong with the timeframe. The guys came at night but now its day? Is the strip-club and hotel scenes happening at the same time? Is this a different hotel scene to one that preceded it? I’m confused.

“Shipyard get comfortable.” Should be gets. This read wrong. Shipyard states to “take a seat” and then sits down himself while Hoolan and Belgan do nothing? Was he talking to himself.

“You though of” should be thought.

P.60 “You only drawing blanks from me tonight, honey.”What does he mean exactly?

“Not since you man left.” You should be your.

P.61 “Shipyard leads Ellie into a cafe.” But we never change to INT. slug? We’re still on the streets.

P.62 “sucks on a shake” There goes Hoolan again, another drink and Belgan’s stretching. These guys puzzle me?

“Hoolan’s in deep thought, again” You aren’t kidding, this guy always seems to be in a deep thought.

“Pincher profers” proffers.

P.63 And more ordering coffee here…jeez, how many times has someone ordered a coffee or a drink so far.

P.64 “takes a sip” of what? The waitress hasn’t brought his coffee yet?

P.65 Nobody wants to actually speak the truth in this story, it all seems to be coded and it makes for a difficult story to follow. I really have no idea whose back-stabbing who, I don’t even know what they want to get in to? What is Shipyard letting Pincher get involved with? Last I knew, it was Shipyard trying to get in with Pincher?

“EXT. LAS VEGAS STREET – DAY” You could give these locations some more life…its Vegas. What I mean is this slug has just been used twice in a row but I’m guessing there different streets. Why not give different street names or something.

P.66 “INT. DAN’S NIGHTCLUB” Is this Dan’s allnite nightclub? You need to be more consistent with the slugs.

“Petroso paces his office” So why aren’t we in his office in the slug like before?

“INT. / EXT. HOOLAN’S CAR/STREET/DAN’S/STREET/LOUCHE – DAY”

Must be the biggest slug I’ve ever seen…again I reckon this scene will be confusing on paper but would work on screen.

There should also probably be 3 streets in the slug?

“And it’s big deal.” Missing “a” after it’s.

Yeah, I was a tad confused after that because nothing is clear as to what is actually happening.

P.67 “Two sliding door” should be doors.

“Hooland” Another typo on Hoolan. Watch out for these, seen a few now.

“doorS.” Don’t why the “s” is capped here.

P.68 You’re honestly telling me they could see a box but not Ellie until closer? That must have been one large box?

P.69 What’s the crack with this box? Why not just open it? It’s hardly illegal…it’s all so mysterious.

“DAN’S ALLNITE NIGHTCLUB” We’re back to Dan’s allnite nightclub now.

“Fats.” Keep it as Oasis now, that’s what you were calling him before.

P.70 “Sit you self down,” “yourself”

“Git comfy” get comfy.

Repetitive word use in this scene:

“Looking too suspicious.”

“Looks around”

“Pincher looks like”

“Pincher looks at the gun”

“Pincher looks like this”

All in this scene, about half a page. Looks (no pun) no good on the page IMO, comes off as repetitive action. Just a thought.

“Hoolan’s in deep thought again.” Here he goes again.

“Pincher, sat, has almost risen an inch his pants are so full
of poo.”

Probably one of the funniest lines I’ve ever read. The use of “poo” is a delight.

P.73 “Hoolan, turns slowly, his back to Ellie, points his finger toward her.” How does he point with his back to her? Seems painful to twist your arm around like that just to point at someone you can’t see…maybe he’s pointing in the wrong place.

P.75 “Shipyard pull a gun” pulls.

“Pulls it open and checks inside.” Is this the gun he’s pulling open? What kind of gun is it?

P.79 “busts” Don’t think everybody has to repeat this line.

Don’t you need sluglines in a montage? I thought you did.

“Surreptitiously” Now that’s a word. I had to look it up.

“quite dead.” As long as he’s “quite” dead.

P.81 “He hire me.” Hired.

Okay, I didn’t see that coming with Petroso.

P.82 “Petroso nigh on collapses.” Collapse.

“coffees and pastries going down.” I wonder how much weight they’ve gained since the start.

P.83 “Hoolan takes sip.” Hoolen takes a sip.

P.84 Oh no, their back onto the “beautiful place you got here” now and this from Hoolan “Mmmmm hm.” Don’t know.

P.85 How are they done? If it was a sting to catch Pincher then they didn’t. if it was to catch Shipyard instead then they still haven’t…these guys are pretty rubbish at their job.

“It’s been a fine time though. Have to say.” They do seemed to have enjoyed it, certainly eaten a lot. Wouldn’t say they’ve done much undercover work, whatever happened to the surveillance guys and van?

ELLIE
Cool.

HOOLAN
Mmm. Cool.

BELGAN
Super cool.

This type of thing happened a lot where characters would keep repeating each other.

P.86 Another instance.

ELLIE
Great.

HOOLAN
Great.

BELGAN
Super great.

P.87 “Great coffee.” That about sums these two up. Honestly, they then go on about not being able to prove anything so why bother?

Hope this helps, buddy.

Have a good weekend.

Steve




















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Hi Steve - thanks for the feedback - almost as long as the script

Yeah - Shipyard was my main concern, as I do think he lacks character.

As for Hoolan & Belgan - I don't think you could make your mind up ...? You seemed to both like them and loathe them. Yeah, part of the point was that they set this whole thing up, but didn't really have a clue as to what was going on - to the extent that at the end they have no idea where Shipyard or Pincher are.

You make a couple of points in regard to confusing the death out of the reader -- well these guys don't know where each other fits in - that's part of the point of the whole thing - I don't think you can make everything clear to an 'audience' when the nature of the material means that the characters are dealing with something they are trying to figure out -- that would be like a murder mystery where there's no mystery -- but then again, that might be a cultural thing - I know that US material often likes to expose the culprit and then catch them as opposed to Brit stuff where the culprit has to be figured out.

Re. your comments about the p45 dialogue -- well, the 'meet' was really awkward, they play pleasantries, but really wish they weren't sat there.

Anyhow, like I said, it's a first draft, so I'll look at those typo's you brought up, and I'll be looking at a bit of a re-work - cheers for the read - appreciated.

Simon
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CoopBazinga
Posted: August 5th, 2012, 10:21pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Simon,


Quoted from Forgive
thanks for the feedback - almost as long as the script

Sorry about that.


Quoted from Forgive
Shipyard was my main concern, as I do think he lacks character.


Or motivation, where's his conflict? What did he overcome? I thought it was him being set-up but that can't be it by the end? What is his relationship with Ellie? What does he do in the force? I knew absolutely nothing about him really. Why take the job in the first place?


Quoted from Forgive
As for Hoolan & Belgan - I don't think you could make your mind up ...? You seemed to both like them and loathe them. Yeah, part of the point was that they set this whole thing up, but didn't really have a clue as to what was going on - to the extent that at the end they have no idea where Shipyard or Pincher are.


Overall I didn't like them to be honest. Don't get me wrong, a few instances I liked and it gave me a chuckle but it was for all the wrong reasons. Maybe it was your intention to make them seem stupid? I mean even your comment above doesn't bring them out in a great light. They set the whole thing up with no clue as to what is happening and at the end...have no clue as to what is happening really? Not great police work IMO.

I mean the title is called "Our problem in Vegas" They then claim to have a problem in Vegas...They still have a problem in Vegas at the end so why go through all this episode? Maybe I'm just overlooking it and I have a habit of doing that. I also didn't know where they were from, and why this is their problem? Which law enforcement are these guys from? Which city?


Quoted from Forgive
You make a couple of points in regard to confusing the death out of the reader


Well, this reader, yes. Others may follow this like clockwork and make me look stupid...again, not a unusual occurrence.


Quoted from Forgive
well these guys don't know where each other fits in - that's part of the point of the whole thing - I don't think you can make everything clear to an 'audience' when the nature of the material means that the characters are dealing with something they are trying to figure out -- that would be like a murder mystery where there's no mystery -- but then again, that might be a cultural thing - I know that US material often likes to expose the culprit and then catch them as opposed to Brit stuff where the culprit has to be figured out.


I agree that the characters don't need to know where everyone fits in but I do believe that the "audience" should have an idea. I still think you can keep certain aspects a mystery while giving the reader some enlightenment in parts.

I'm a Brit so I can understand what you mean... I think? Have always liked shows where the culprit had to be found out not only by the characters but watcher as well. I'm thinking along the lines of "Poirot" or a favorite of mine "Jonathan Creek" where all would be revealed at the end.

My biggest concern would be the lack of conclusion for any character, nobody changed over the piece apart from Pincher for obvious reasons.


Quoted from Forgive
Anyhow, like I said, it's a first draft, so I'll look at those typo's you brought up, and I'll be looking at a bit of a re-work - cheers for the read - appreciated.


No worries, hopefully it can help you iron out some issues here. Like I say, this isn't working for me at the moment because it read too confusing but that's just my opinion.

Hope you all the best with it, buddy.

Steve
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stevemiles
Posted: August 7th, 2012, 11:37am Report to Moderator
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Simon,

Going to be honest and say there’s some big issues here with the plot and characters -- though I think you’re aware of that.  I skimmed through the previous posts, so apologies if there’s stuff been covered before.  Looks like Coop picked up on the typos/grammar. so I’ll try to stick to the story.

As regards your use of mini/subject slugs, I’d leave that as a matter of preference.  I would say the way they appear on that first page makes for some pretty disjointed reading.  Add in the brevity of the action and what seems like a few unnecessary single/double dashes, i.e:

COPS

burst into the cafe - the Hood holds the door for the cops - the latter cop eyes the hood, and -- moves on.

it took me a couple of reads to really get the images across. (Don’t get me wrong here, I like the double dash).  

An issue for me in those first few pages is a lack of build up and setting.  We go straight into Vegas (from where?) and straight to Pincher.  It felt like the set-up for an established show, i.e. ‘Rockford Files’ or ‘The Sweeny’  (sorry, only two shows I can think of right now)  as if the audience is already familiar with the tone and character so it’s straight into the plot of the week -- get Pincher.

Again, Luigi’s bar -- no description to set the tone/atmosphere.

p.11 Pincher seems a little too eager to let on that he’s up to something, I guess this relates to the plot later on, but still feels way too casual for a supposedly crooked cop talking to a stranger.

p.14 descriptions start to pick up, little more of where we are.

p.17 -- Again Shipyard seems to be in with Pincher all too easily.

p.21 -- ‘You think he’ll fall for it’ nice hook here.

Nice touch with the hand-grenade.  Wonder how would that scene could work if Pincher were there to see Shipyard’s tactics?  Pincher seems to disappear for a few too many pages here.

p.33  -- Pincher being seen with Hoolan and Belgan in public, seems like they’d opt for somewhere discreet like they do with Shipyard.

p.36-37 conversation with Juliano seems almost too cryptic.  Lots of questions in the dialogue. And if Petroso is an actor and part of the set-up then wouldn’t the Mayor have to be in on the set-up too?  How about Lynch?

Starting to notice a shift in tone about here.  That might be something to consider.  Up until now I’ve been expecting a dark/gritty crime caper, now I’m starting to sense a more offbeat, darkly humourous tone.  

The little character nuances:  Hoolan and Belgan with the constant food/drinks.  Shipyards fondness for grenades; the repetition with the ‘Just coffee?’; Pincher’s arm around an imaginary girl? (...not sure what that was about).  Think some of these could be misinterpreted as unnecessary dialogue (the coffee and food especially) but it works fine for me.

So far there’s been very little as to Shipyard’s character in terms of background, inner goals etc. Not even sure what he does, i.e. detective/FBI/Internal Affairs?  What department do these guys (Belgan and Hoolan) even work for?  Is it within Nevada or outside? Federal or state?  

Hoolan’s Car scene with Ellie, p.41+.  Liked this. Nice subtle touch of humour in the interaction.  Felt it could have come earlier in the story, give us an idea of what kind of operation they’re running here -- I was never really sure whether it was off the books or not, think that’s important to the audience, a clue as to what these two are really about.  And what happened to the surveillance team?

p.49 - Pincher sets up a meet with Tom -- they subsequently meet at Luigi’s and Pincher leaves.  Nothing seems to happen here.  What was the purpose of the meeting?  The conversation they do have seems vague.

p.52 Petroso’s office: Now I’m starting to get lost.  On the plus side you do list all the questions yet to be answered.  I took that as a kind of ‘wink wink’ to the audience, I’m 50/50 on that.

On the other hand there’s a big leap of faith here between Ellie breaking into Petroso’s and getting caught by Hoolan and Belgan.  What were Hoolan and Belgan doing there?  She was reluctant to even help Shipyard, why does she have to risk breaking in?  What was she hoping to find?  Her last scene with Shipyard was some 20 pages earlier and nothing was mentioned then or after that might set-up her investigating Petroso.  

At this point, and throughout there’s something lacking to the ‘investigation’ side. This is the most casual, laid back undercover assignment.  So far everybody kind of hangs out at bars and cafes and asks each other questions...  

p.57. Liked Ellie and Oasis’ dialogue -- could see that getting a good laugh with the ‘ass’ repetition and Oasis’ over the top reaction.  Think he could have come into play earlier.

p.58

HOOLAN
Are you getting any closer to
Pincher?

This struck me here -- Shipyard getting closer to Pincher was the main goal at the start, yet they’ve rarely appeared together and their relationship doesn’t seem to have progressed.

p.63 - ‘Just Coffee’ -- Shipyard’s got it now .

Okay, so we know that Shipyard’s running a guns racket.  While I like the premise I wonder how that would work.  These guns would generally be hot with ‘hits’ or crimes associated with them -- might be a push that they could make bank on selling them on.

What about the ‘uniforms’ doing the collecting and passing on? There would have to be quite a number doing it, which would mean a lot of people in the know, or just a couple who happen to turn up at every crime scene.  It may seem pedantic but I have to question if that would be a viable racket.  

How about a link to someone who has access to the evidence room?  Once it’s been used in a prosecution, instead of destroying it, they just pass it on to Shipyard, the guns no longer ‘hot’ and it involves one/two people?  Just a thought.

Finished:

SPOILERS...

So to my understanding, Pincher was an undercover cop planted by Belgan and Hoolan to flush Shipyard out on his racket passing on guns to Oasis?  Ellie was ‘working’ for Shipyard to run interference with Belgan and Hoolan.  Petroso was an actor hired by Belgan and Hoolan to assume the role of mob boss to Pincher’s ‘crooked’ cop.

...Hope I’ve got that right.

Some questions I was left with:

Where does Phebe Brown come into this and where did she go?

Why were Hoolan and Belgan so unconcerned at Pincher’s disappearance, surely their asses would be on the line if anything happened to him?
  
The dialogue suggests Pincher’s been seen with movers and shakers, we don’t really see him with anyone except for Petroso, who’s been in town 3 months and doesn’t seem to be much of a mover or shaker.

Why does Shipyard kill Pincher?  He’s a cop, seems to know very little about anything Shipyards been up to, i.e. he doesn’t pose a threat.  Can’t see what Shipyard has to gain in killing him, or lose by not.  It just seems unnecessary.

Think you’ve got some good characters in Belgan and Hoolan -- I liked the idea of these two stumbling around, getting fat on the strip while getting played by Shipyard.

As for Shipyard,  his character needs a lot more development, I came away knowing as much about him as I did at the start -- maybe less as now he’s suddenly a cold-blooded killer.

There’s a subtlety to the way you describe a characters actions.  Have to say I was rarely lost for how they’re reacting to a given moment/event.

It’s a quick read with some smart, snappy dialogue that you’ve a real knack for.  The plot you have is certainly twisted enough to maintain interest, but it often feels like there’s bits missing alongside some cryptic dialogue.

In the end the lack of clear character motivation and resolution meant I came away with more questions than answers. Not really sure what you were aiming for.  There were few moments of conflict and what were the stakes at play here?  Who had what to lose?  Hoolan and Belgan just gave up.  What happened to Shipyard?

That said I did like the last line -- 'Great Coffee'...  seems like a pretty deadpan way to end.  Hope you can work that in to a future draft.

Hope this helps in some way, sorry if it comes across as negative.  I’d be keen to see where you take this from here -- happy to check out any future drafts.

Steve.


My short scripts can be found here on my new & improved budget website:


http://stevemiles80.wixsite.com/sjmilesscripts
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Forgive
Posted: August 7th, 2012, 5:11pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Steve - I've seen you around here a couple of times -- I don't much about you, but I know you've given some pretty spot-on feedback in the past, so looks like you've a good idea on the craft.

Thanks for the read -- you've laid some good points up here. Just to be clear (back-ground), this was a (very) first draft that I did last year, and wasn't too sure where to go with it, so I just finished it up this year and decided to post it up to see if I could get some direction with it.


Quoted from stevemiles

As regards your use of mini/subject slugs ... makes for some pretty disjointed reading.

Yeah - I've decided to pull back on these.


Quoted from stevemiles

An issue for me in those first few pages is a lack of build up and setting.  We go straight into Vegas ... as if the audience is already familiar with the tone and character so it’s straight into the plot of the week -- get Pincher.

I did want to get straight into it, but this is more a function of the writing - get the ideas down while they're fresh. I can re-think this - it's something that Coop also brought up.


Quoted from stevemiles

p.11 Pincher seems a little too eager to let on that he’s up to something, I guess this relates to the plot later on, but still feels way too casual for a supposedly crooked cop talking to a stranger.

I'll have to re-think this, to be honest - I was using it as a kind of plot point - an immediate 'what's going on here', but maybe it's not coming across right?


Quoted from stevemiles

Pincher being seen with Hoolan and Belgan in public, seems like they’d opt for somewhere discreet like they do with Shipyard.

Good point -- and I'm not sure on this one - I liked the idea of it being in the day, on H&B first and then a nice bright WTF moment - out in the open for impact. I'll chew on it.


Quoted from stevemiles

Starting to notice a shift in tone about here.  That might be something to consider.  Up until now I’ve been expecting a dark/gritty crime caper, now I’m starting to sense a more offbeat, darkly humourous tone.

Didn't see this, and I guess this is an issue due to the lack of setting the tone earlier on - the latter was more intended than the former.


Quoted from stevemiles

The little character nuances:  Hoolan and Belgan with the constant food/drinks.  Shipyards fondness for grenades; the repetition with the ‘Just coffee?’; ...  Think some of these could be misinterpreted as unnecessary dialogue.

Familiarity breed contempt, maybe. The mini themes I quite liked, but again, this is something that Coop was unsure about. The intent was, to some extent, to give some idiosyncrasy that would give some character, and maybe that's not working - or maybe there's too many people with quirks too similar???


Quoted from stevemiles

So far there’s been very little as to Shipyard’s character in terms of background, inner goals etc.

Yeah - this was my biggest concern - I felt that his character was completely flat. Not just motivation/internal stuff but not an interesting person. I hate making a twat of myself on this site -- but I'll fess up on this. I always write with a specific person in my mind, because if I don't my characters wander off into different people (they change too much) - so I stick to someone that I know, and generally it works. Here, Shipyard is ... (cringe now) Cruise. Yeah Tom Cruise. Now, what little credibility I had is no more. I guess I'll just re-write it for Christian Bale  


Quoted from stevemiles

Hoolan’s Car scene with Ellie ... Felt it could have come earlier in the story

Yeah - this a good call.


Quoted from stevemiles

Pincher sets up a meet with Tom -- they subsequently meet at Luigi’s and Pincher leaves.  Nothing seems to happen here.  

(intent) Shipyard's clearly getting the upper hand over Pincher - but then I had to read it myself a couple times -- so not good.


Quoted from stevemiles

p.52 Petroso’s office: ... a big leap of faith ... Ellie breaking into Petroso’s and getting caught by Hoolan and Belgan.

I see what you're saying here. Ellie's coerced earlier (in the hotel, somewhat reluctantly), but there is a leap - I think this has probably happened as I was focussed on that story between Ellie and H&B.


Quoted from stevemiles

At this point, and throughout there’s something lacking to the ‘investigation’ ... the most casual, laid back undercover assignment.  

There's a bit of a question mark over H&B - I kind of like the way they are, but maybe there needs to be more action, intrigue, stuff happening, to offset their approach.


Quoted from stevemiles

This struck me here -- Shipyard getting closer to Pincher was the main goal at the start, yet they’ve rarely appeared together and their relationship doesn’t seem to have progressed.

This is a tricky one - Shipyard knows (suspects) that he's being set-up my H&B - so whilst he has the goal set by them - he knows that getting too close to Pincher isn't in his interests.


Quoted from stevemiles

... the ‘uniforms’ ... would mean a lot of people in the know.  

How about a link to someone who has access to the evidence room?

In a lot of ways this is probably a stronger idea, but I'm pretty sure that it's been done before, but I can see it's got less flaws that my idea.


Quoted from stevemiles

So to my understanding, Pincher was an undercover cop ...

This was a relief - I was concerned that no-one would get it, and it'd be too confusing. You're spot on there.


Quoted from stevemiles

Where does Phebe Brown come into this and where did she go?

I'm going to invent a name for this, where you stick in a character and then completely forget to develop them in any way whatsoever. How about 'character disenfranchisement'?


Quoted from stevemiles

Why does Shipyard kill Pincher?

Got to be another name for this. I get the BME really clear in my head so that I know where I'm going. Then I go in a slightly different direction. And then for no purpose, finish the end as it where before. In the original idea, I think Pincher was more of a threat than he turned out to be, and had daming evidence against Shipyard, but in turn he's turned out quite ineffective. So either the end needs re-writing or Pincher's character does.


Quoted from stevemiles

The plot you have is certainly twisted enough to maintain interest, but it often feels like there’s bits missing alongside some cryptic dialogue.

I'd agree with this - it is dialogue heavy, but I think there's lot of room for more plot points, events, something more concrete to turn up.


Quoted from stevemiles

In the end the lack of clear character motivation and resolution meant I came away with more questions than answers. ... Who had what to lose?  Hoolan and Belgan just gave up.  What happened to Shipyard?

I think this is mainly due to Shipyard being badly drawn - he's obviously got a lot to lose, but this needs to presented better. H&B just giving up, I liked, it kind of summed up their attitude. I'd agree that there needs to be more clear conflict going on here, and maybe a clear resolution to something.

Yeah - this helped a lot Steve - sometimes it's easy to get too close to a piece of work, and it's difficult to see stuff which would be obvious in someone else's work. So thanks again for the read - it's much appreciated.

Simon
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Jahon Bahrom
Posted: September 29th, 2012, 7:47pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Simon.
I read 10 pages today and it is suspensfull so far. I've got here some notes. Sorry if they are repetetive, but I did not have time to read other comments.
P-1 Suited, stood. IMO you need onlly present tense.
p-2 What kind of rougue are we talking about you need ? mark there.
p-3 Belgun lean(s) over Tom.
p-5 But we didn't (know) where it's coming from.
p-10 Pincher is first surprised and then turns to see Shipyard?

I get back to you tomorrow again as I read more.

take care.
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leitskev
Posted: September 29th, 2012, 8:02pm Report to Moderator
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Simon, had no idea about this feature. I promise to begin reading tomorrow.
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Forgive
Posted: September 30th, 2012, 4:54am Report to Moderator
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Hey Kev. It'd be good to have your take on it. I've had some really good feedback from Steve and Coop, and I've got clear ideas now on where the flaws are.

Not had time to begin a re-write yet, but one's going to be done soonish, you it'd be good to get some of your thoughts before I begin that.

Like I say, it's a bit of a raw 1st write.
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leitskev
Posted: September 30th, 2012, 8:16am Report to Moderator
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I would have read it before if I knew of it. I have not been diligent about checking posts here.

It can take me a few days to completely get through a script, so give me a few.

I will be sending the notes privately.
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Jahon Bahrom
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Hi Simon
Today I read until the page 30 and here are my notes so far:
p-21 You think he'll fall (to) for it. Take away (to) from there.
p-21 Pincher is a little more urgent. Not Pinches IMO.
p-22 Shipyard know(s) she is right. You forgot S.
p-24 Not seen a woman's touch in a while. You wrote seem.
p-25 When I done with you. You forgot H in with.

This is all for today boddy get back to you Tomorrow God willing.
Take care.
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alffy
Posted: October 7th, 2012, 5:18am Report to Moderator
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Hey Simon, you give a lot of feedback to others so it seems only fair to offer some to you…whether you want it or not. Lol   Actually I would have read this before only I didn’t know you’d posted a feature, you should have said.

I haven’t read the previous comments so forgive any repeats.

I have a few issues with your format straight away.  I’m not one for mini slugs of objects and the like but each to their own.

Hoolan and Belgan could do with better introductions.  In fact Belgan doesn’t really have one.  This is an issue if they play a big part in the story.

It can become confusing when your characters are referring to others by names you don’t use in the dialogue.  Does that make sense?  Hoolan keeps calling Shipyard, Tom.  I actually had to scan back to make sure that was Shipyard lol.  There’s a lot of dialogue in the opening 5 pages and as a result I didn’t get much of visual image of anyone.  Reads fast though and it was well written.

My summary of the first 10 pages is this; a lot of dialogue and most is telling us very little of what that story is.  I can’t get a good idea or feel for this so far as you don’t include much in terms of location description and your characters seem to just stand and talk.  I would like a few traits to make the characters more individual.

On page 10, should Hoolan’s dialogue be V.O?

I found Shipyard’s and Pincher’s conversation in the bar a bit confusing.  I can’t really explain why but it’s as if I missed some part of the story.  If Pincher doesn’t know who Shipyard is, why is he so open to his offer?  I’m also a little confused as to who Pincher is.  If he’s a rogue is he a rogue cop?  Would a rogue cop be so open to talking to a stranger in a bar about dodgy deals?

I wonder if you’re being intentionally vague about the story?

There seems to be a lot of coffee drinking lol.

Shipyard phones Ellie from a payphone but a few scenes later he phones Petroso from his mobile, why did he not his mobile to phone Ellie?  Again this might become clear later and if it does, ignore this lol.

I love the super glue bit but I wonder how quick it dries?  Actually I’m being niggley, I think it works as a great sudden step-up scene after a lot of dialogue.  It shows Shipyard as a do not just a talker.  Wait though, isn’t the string attached to the grenades pin?  If so, Shipyard holds the string and sits in front of Lynch, if he pulled the string wouldn’t he be in the blast zone?

I’ve noticed quite a few character feelings and while they’re amusing they are at times redundant.

So I’m about 30 pages in and I still can’t get my head round the dialogue; vague, short and sweet.  I’m now thinking this is your intention?  I get the feel of an indie film here, something different from the norm.  Long scenes of dialogue and little action.

Okay Shipyard thinks he’s been set up by, I’m guessing, Hoolan and Belgan?  Interesting.

Page 37 you have a EXT/INT scene.  Is this an intercut between scenes?  I was a little confused as you used an intercut earlier but it wasn’t stated here.

You have a slug of Petroso’s apartment and then an action line saying it’s his bedroom.  I think you could put this in the slug?

It’s becoming intriguing as I try to figure out who knows who and who’s in cahoots with who and what everyone is hoping to gain from this whole escapade?

Page 54 has Ellie and Hoolan list everything that needs to be resolved; clever.  I hope you answer them all.

I can’t help but picture Hoolan and Belgan gaining weight throughout the story.  They’re always eating and drinking lol.

Ellie and Oasis talk a lot off ass.

An hour in and I’m no nearer finding out the true story I think.  If Shipyard is looking in to Pincher, why is he more involved with Petroso?

There’s a lot of marching and sauntering.

The multi scene phone call(s) is a nice touch.  Keeping us guessing who is talking to who.

Are they flashback scenes of Hoolan and Belgan first meeting Shipyard?  If so you could label them.

So Petroso’s an actor.  He was given information by Pincher.  So Petroso was told about Lynch and Mayor?

Hoolan and Belgan start off watching Shipyard in a surveillance van but by the end they have no idea where he is.  The two cops come across as complete idiots.  I wonder if this was your intention?  I mean there was a huge plan to catch Shipyard and then they seem totally uninterested in where he is what he’s up to when they assume he now knows the truth.

Shipyard might need a bit of work.  I wasn’t sure of his reasoning behind selling on firearms, I guess for money but is there a reason he needs more money than his wage?  He must be paying Ellie to cover for him too, what’s their relationship?

Much of the dialogue comes across as some sort of code that I’m not privy too.  I’m on the fence by the end.  Was this a bit under developed and too short on action or was this actually a very smart dialogue driven misdirection drama?  I’m still thinking….

Finally, I noticed a few typos but I never made a note of them, sorry.  I think they’ve been covered anyway.


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