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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board  /  Questions or Comments  /  Constructive criticism
Posted by: Heretic, December 25th, 2005, 3:37am
I've got some constructive criticism.

More and more often, a new writer pops up (usually seeming young and inexperienced) with an idea, often laid out complete with grammatical and spelling errors and huge plot holes.  In seconds, they are picked apart in every possible way, and when they respond (usually angrily and often immaturely), they are told to grow up and get used to criticism.  

Well.  Constructive criticism it may be, but having five experienced and capable writers rip you to pieces isn't a pleasant experience for everyone.  

But it's an experience that everyone needs to have, you argue.  To better themselves.  And I agree completely.  You've gotta learn to work throught that kind of thing, to better yourself with criticism.  But it doesn't have to be on the internet when you're fifteen.  They're on the internet because they're not ready to get ripped apart by producers.  They're looking for a chance to nurture and expand their craft, but what they're getting is a bunch of guys saying "Well, I read this as a producer would..." and ripping them apart.

Give these guys a chance.  You know, a lot of the time, when these guys post (I'm sure we know the sorts I'm referring to), I have to suck back an angry retort, because what they are doing and saying often seems immature and downright stupid.  But suck it back I do, and that's the important part.  Silence speaks volumes, and if nobody replies to people they don't like, I really think everything would go better.

I think it's very easy for writers to get scared off of this site.  A young writer who posts his first script and has it ripped to shreds, who is thereafter informed that this is what it's gonna be like for a long time, may not really have much interest in continuing.  Without this experience, however, and even with some positive ones, I think that we could end up with some more valuable members of this board.

That's all I can think of.  I hope I've communicated my point clearly.  I can offer some supporting evidence in the form of script links if anyone needs it.  
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 25th, 2005, 4:47am; Reply: 1
Chris,

Well put. Point taken. You’re absolutely right. People (including myself) need to consider the writer when we post. Many of them are just kids and you’re right that we need to be more sensitive to them.

For me personally, the biggest problem is with the ones who don’t seem to be serious about writing. In this day and age of the internet where one can post material instantly, it’s easy for impatience to prevail. There are many who seem to just throw together the first draft and put it out there, which is annoying. Then, of course, as you said, there is the attitude of some.

You are absolutely right however, particularly with the younger ones. We as adults have to be the responsible ones and watch out for the kids.

I try to get better but one forgets. Thanks for the reminder. :)
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 25th, 2005, 8:56am; Reply: 2

Quoted from Breanne Mattson
There are many who seem to just throw together the first draft and put it out there, which is annoying. Then, of course, as you said, there is the attitude of some.


I've said several times in the past that people shouldn't even post their first draft.  They should rewrite atleast once and then submit it.  The first draft is filled is typos, which is what everyone points out because they are too numerous and too distracting.  Also, if a writer isn't going to spend time looking over his/her script, then why should we?


Phil

Posted by: Shelton, December 25th, 2005, 3:08pm; Reply: 3

Quoted from dogglebe


I've said several times in the past that people shouldn't even post their first draft.  They should rewrite atleast once and then submit it.  The first draft is filled is typos, which is what everyone points out because they are too numerous and too distracting.  Also, if a writer isn't going to spend time looking over his/her script, then why should we?


Phil




I submit my first drafts all the time, but I have what I consider to be a different writing style.

Before I start adding anything new to a work in process, I'll start at the beginning, read it all the way through, and then continue.  Sometimes I'll catch a typo or find something that just doesn't seem to fit, and make appropriate changes.

Maybe everyone does this, I don't know, but I find it pretty effective, and since I'm usually pretty happy with my first drafts and don't make any significant changes to them, I'll submit it and let you guys offer suggestions and criticisms for consideration in future rewrites.


But in regards to constructive criticism, I can usually find some good in any script, and I'll make a point to let the writer know it, even if I just spent three paragraphs picking it apart.

Finishing on a good note can go a long way.


Mike

Posted by: Old Time Wesley, December 25th, 2005, 3:45pm; Reply: 4
If you can't have a near perfect spelling and format wise first drafts than you deserve what you get.

I see no exceptions for this stuff or the writer having to say I rushed through this one if they want us to care about the screenplay. This happens with young writers for the most part.

Phil doesn't say I rushed through this short because he knows it would get ripped to shreds and also he has more respect for his readers as people should but they don't.

I think most of this thread is directed towards him anyway because he's the one who does this a lot and for the most part he's right on the money. I don't like his methods but I respect the fact that he knows what he knows and most of us are amateurs compared so live with it.

This is like being angry at him for being a good writer... negative feedback breeds good ideas. If we want to start being picky about that kind of thing, let's talk about the people who actually spend time here getting ignored for the most part and the bad scripts getting all the attention... Or the review exchange being a board nobody cares about and could solve all these problems.

I wish those puppy dogs and rose bushes could make the world a better place but I know that the best you can hope for is people just not posting replies but instead sending them to the writers and then nobody would ever use the script forums which would render them useless. You decide but I think negative feedback is better than nothing ever happening and Don is forced to cut off another set of boards because some people are afraid of Dogglebe... Don't post them if you're that afraid.
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 25th, 2005, 4:38pm; Reply: 5
Honestly (and I’m sure some will think I’m wrong for this), I generally don’t even comment on something if I think the writer isn’t serious.

Here’s why:

I’ve been around long enough to know that the average artist of anything (music, screenplays, novels, you name it) quits if he or she doesn’t achieve success fairly quickly, i.e. within a few years. Why waste time with these people if they’re just going to quit?

If I think a writer is serious, I would love to help him or her out (assuming I can) but if he’s not serious, then he’s a waste of my time. I don’t mean that to sound cruel. It’s a fact, though.

People can disagree but I’m just not willing to bother for the most part with writers who won’t even spell-check a draft before posting it.
Posted by: greg, December 25th, 2005, 5:54pm; Reply: 6
I know what this thread is in regard to and I know how the writer feels.  One of my scripts was slapped around left and right when I was 15 on a different site.  Sure, it scared me at first, but without that slapping I wouldn't be where I am today.  Hell, the script was horrible!  But I didn't retaliate at the people reviewing it.

The problem with what this thread is in regard to, is that this certain individual doesn't take constructive criticism well and sometimes sets himself up for a beating anyway.  In this day of age with all the technology and computers at every corner, you'd think that any jackass would at least spell their title correctly.  At least

Above all else, the writer was already "sitting under the lava lamp" with its first script and their responses to the criticism was just awful.  For the most part, I do take into consideration who the writer is and I try to be nice about it.  I was hard on Bigwhoop's scripts but as time went on, I did see some improvement, so I was able to loosen my grip.  Others don't learn, which leads to sour responses.

There's one writer on here(young, of course) who puts together these shoddy scripts, not one shred of reason to read them, then posts them on here without giving it a second thought.  Unfortunately, newbs to the site(or other youngins for that) wind up giving feedback anyway which leads to more people looking at it, and all this even when the writer seldom shows up on the site anyway.

So yeah, I'm kinda going crazy with this response, but generally if they're going to be jerks, I'll be a jerk back.  I try to be nice, but I don't need some zitfaced kid being a jerk and stealing attention away from the rest of the board.  :)  Happy Holidays
Posted by: bert, December 25th, 2005, 6:01pm; Reply: 7
I don't know.  I can see both sides.  Heretic is right on just about every count, but still...

does it make me a horrible person to think there are some people that just deserve to get chased off?
Posted by: Old Time Wesley, December 25th, 2005, 6:06pm; Reply: 8
Greg you don't mean ****** do you? ha-ha I know who you mean (In the Horror genre, right?)

I think we have about 5 of those people, most of us don't push massive amounts of screenplays on each other leaving people wanting more.

As I once said to Balt, I wish you'd write more in which he replied .... yeah .... and a whole bunch of awkward silence as he dodged the question making me want more even more.

I think that's why Bert did so well with his new series (I won't plug it) because he doesn't release scripts like the plague, same with Phil and even you Heretic. It works well if you just release 1 full length script every year or so and have a couple shorts or some series work to satisfy your audience in the meantime.
Posted by: Shelton, December 25th, 2005, 6:47pm; Reply: 9

Quoted from Old Time Wesley
...because he doesn't release scripts like the plague


So is the number of submissions the problem, or just the fact that they just aren't any good?

If it's the former, then I'm probably the guiltiest person on this site, with three features, and four shorts posted in the span of about three months.

Mike

Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 25th, 2005, 7:30pm; Reply: 10

Quoted from Breanne Mattson
I’m just not willing to bother for the most part with writers who won’t even spell-check a draft before posting it.


I have three computers that don't have spell-checkers in their word-processors.  That's why attitudes like yours frustrated me when I tried to get people to take my novel GOLDEN CITY seriously.  Then I finally got a screenwriting program, and it's got a spell-checker, but a lot of people depend on computers that don't have spell-checkers, so get off your high horse and help people out when you can.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 25th, 2005, 7:50pm; Reply: 11
When I first came to these boards, I read thte scripts completely.  I nearlt left the boards.  The first two were pretty bad and the third was so awful that Don would've banned me if I wrote how I felt about it.  This is a main reason why I don't always read the entire scripts.  If I thinks it's awful by page ten, my opinion will only get worse by the time I've read page 150.

In the time that I've been here, I've had several people get nasty with me because I found problems with their work.  Sometimes I concentrate on formatting and spelling.  Sometimes, it's on the characterization.  Sometimes the story.  Sometimes it's on all three.

And if you don't like what I write, then you have the problem.  Not me.  I have yet to criticize a script to be malicious (malicious to the writers?  That's another story).

Much like Breanne, I was beating away on a typewriter long before I had a computer.  And it was a manual typewriter.  Before that, I handwrote everything in a looseleaf binder.  Mistakes were corrected by pulling the page out and rewriting it.

I write what the Hollywood readers feel when they read a script.  The only difference between us is that I tell you what I think; they don't.  Every script here needs work, including my own.  I'm writing a shooting script for Pugumentary and I'm making more than formatting changes.

If you think you're script doesn't need improvement, then don't post it here.  Send it straight to Hollywood.  They can use perfect scripts.


Phil
Posted by: greg, December 25th, 2005, 8:09pm; Reply: 12
It's one thing if you release quality scripts one after the other, but it's quite another to release crappy ones one after the other.  Granted if you do release one script every week, you probably won't get as many reads as you would if you release one every few months.  But if your scripts stink and you're posting one every week expecting people to read them, well joke's on you.  That's why some folk don't register with constructive criticism too well unless it sounds harsher.  This "fellow" who releases low quality scripts every week eventually got me to crack and I wrote something that was somewhat discreet in his thread.  It was like "ya know either learn from your mistakes or just stop."

Of course this "fellow" doesn't take nor pay attention to the criticism and his thread eventually got locked.  If you're gonna release a script every week, then come on, have some respect for the reader and don't go casting your own stuff, especially with names like P**** H*****.  

Another thing is that you can't tell emotions from text.  Someone can say "this script isn't very good," and they can mean that with all the compassion in the world, but the writer may take it as an insult or something.  If you think I'm writing this and I sound mad, I'm actually smiling :)  So I guess sometimes you need to add that strength to your writing to get the point across, because some folk completely ignore the constructive criticism and many of them don't know what they're doing anyway.
Posted by: Old Time Wesley, December 25th, 2005, 9:14pm; Reply: 13
Anyone who releases a lot of screenplays quality or not will get less reads than those who make you wait for a masterwork whether it's good or bad you get some good feedback by being this way.

Or you do what I do and actively seek out those who are good reviewers and exchange screenplays with them. The read for a read thing worked for me in the past before it was all the rage though it really isn't as when I posted my thread on Script Exchange I seen stuff flying across the road as I dusted off the door of what used to be a good idea.

Anyways, I need some food.
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 25th, 2005, 9:39pm; Reply: 14

Quoted from Alan_Holman

I have three computers that don't have spell-checkers in their word-processors.  That's why attitudes like yours frustrated me when I tried to get people to take my novel GOLDEN CITY seriously.  Then I finally got a screenwriting program, and it's got a spell-checker, but a lot of people depend on computers that don't have spell-checkers, so get off your high horse and help people out when you can.


Alan,

You don’t need a spell check program to do a spell check. All you need is a dictionary, something readily available to most people. Surely you’re not suggesting that you can afford three computers but not a dictionary? And if you don’t own one, you can go to the library.

My opinion stands. You have no excuse not to proofread a draft before posting. Period.

You’re not asking me to help people out. You’re asking me to do the work for them and I won’t do it. If you didn’t have spell check, you should have quit being a lazy writer and picked up a dictionary.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 25th, 2005, 9:57pm; Reply: 15

Quoted from Breanne Mattson

You don’t need a spell check program to do a spell check. All you need is a dictionary, something readily available to most people. Surely you’re not suggesting that you can afford three computers but not a dictionary? And if you don’t own one, you can go to the library.


Most of the misspellings are actually typos (there is a difference) that can be readily corrected by simply reading the script.  If people are not willing to spend the time to read their own scripts, then there's no reason for us to.


Phil

Posted by: Shelton, December 25th, 2005, 10:12pm; Reply: 16
Maybe it's just me, but I find it kinda funny that all of the people commenting in this thread are all GOOD writers, who put out GOOD scripts, and give pretty GOOD reviews.


You think the applicable people are looking?
Posted by: greg, December 25th, 2005, 10:15pm; Reply: 17
Damn the irony!
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 26th, 2005, 1:32pm; Reply: 18

Quoted from dogglebe
Most of the misspellings are actually typos that can be readily corrected by simply reading the script.


You’re absolutely right. Sometimes, it is only a matter of reading it over.

Once I misused the word “trader” where I meant to use the word “traitor.” I know better. I just made a mistake. And no spell check is going to catch that kind of mistake. I proofread the piece umpteen million times and missed it every time. Thankfully, Greg caught it and saved me any further embarrassment.

I don’t get these writers who think they’re helpless to proofread and I don’t understand how someone who wants to be a writer can accept that his/her work is just riddled with misspellings. I mean, if a writer doesn‘t have decent spelling and grammar skills, who can be expected to?
Posted by: greg, December 26th, 2005, 3:50pm; Reply: 19

Quoted from Heretic

But it would be a shame to frighten off others who it might one day be possible to say the same of.  


Yeah, I know what ya mean.  New folk reading this could be scared shitless right now, which isn't good since it takes alot of guts to show your work.

So yeah, this isn't to frighten off newbs, but just read a few scripts first and make sure your formatting is at least good.  It'll make me that much happier :)

Posted by: Helio, December 27th, 2005, 7:49pm; Reply: 20
Hi, guys!

I hope everybody had a good peaceful Christmas!

Well, I'm not sure what I will do from now on...I'm not an "anglosaxson" (it isn't any "Bird" son) and it is to difficult to me to understand what really you all are trying to say here...Maybe it seems to be a type of lottery - maybe you have luck if any writers (very young, young or old or very old) will read your draft...Anyway,

I decided to put in votation: who wants to see any script written by me off from this site?

Say now, please! It's so simple like that! I’ll authorize Don to rip it off! I wont to see any writer here embarrassed with my writing.

I don't support to hear half words when it has to be a complete one. I like to hear from anybody the truth, not more than that. Just the truth!

I love you all and a great 2006 to everyone!

Success and thanks for your patience.


Helio
Posted by: George Willson, December 27th, 2005, 9:59pm; Reply: 21
The real key, I think, to getting your work read is to write a compelling logline for it. If you can come up with something that makes people say "I want to read that!" then you'll get reads. If it sounds ho-hum, then people will assume it is even if it is awesome. Personally, I have all kinds of trouble writing a logline that is a grabber, however I've been told my scripts are pretty good.

On that note, I'm not sure what to say when it comes to volume because though some may think they've got a lot up here, I searched for myself up there in the search bar and I think if I'm not on the top of the heap, I'm up there on volume submissions (and not all of them submitted by me either). If you type my name in the search bar on the main SimplyScripts.com site (not the one on the top of the boards), you'll come back with 29 scripts. 9 Feature length, 1 co-written feature length, 13 hour-long, 1 co-written hour long, 1 half hour, and 4 shorts. There's even 1 more hour-long that isn't in the search engine yet as well as a few scripts that aren't posted here.

Do I get read? Sometimes. All the volume has done for me is put me in lots of places so that sometimes I get stumbled upon. No one person has read everything I've written. Do I welcome critique? Sure. I tell people to tear me apart. In fact, I prefer nasty reviews that tear something to pieces; I find them to be the most useful kind of review there is. I could post some reviews of a couple of scripts I've gotten on other sites (gasp!) that would make your hair curl. People around here were nice by comparison. However, these nasty reviews were all constructive in that I took something away from every one of them...even if it was things I couldn't fix or change -- stuff that didn't fit the personality or preference of the reviewer.

Point is that if anyone new(er) is reading this thread and feeling a bit perturbed or fightened by all us regulars, there's no reason to be. We want help as much as the next person, and while some people get nasty sometimes about ideas or scripts, I always keep in mind one basic point: it is better to be torn apart when you can fix it, than to be torn apart when you can't. It would be better to know the shortcomings of your script now than to hook a producer with your logline only to have his reader chuck the script in the trash because it's no good.

So if you're lucky enough to have your baby ripped to shreds by someone who reads a lot, don't complain or run off and hide -- throw a freakin' party! Someone cared enough to read what you wrote and post comments about it. If someone comments on anything, even if they say it sucks, they still read something and left a comment. As for producers, if it's been a year, they probably said no.
Posted by: bert, December 27th, 2005, 10:18pm; Reply: 22

Quoted from Helio
I like to hear from anybody the truth, not more than that. Just the truth!


Settle down, Helio...nobody is talking, or euphemizing (look it up  :)) about you.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 27th, 2005, 10:19pm; Reply: 23
Helio,

Your situation is different from others here.  From what I gather (forgive me if I'm wrong), English is not your first language.  You're doing the best you can; others here (who speak English as a first language) are being lazy.

Stick around.


Phil
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 27th, 2005, 10:49pm; Reply: 24

Quoted from George Willson
The real key, I think, to getting your work read is to write a compelling logline for it. If you can come up with something that makes people say "I want to read that!" then you'll get reads. If it sounds ho-hum, then people will assume it is even if it is awesome. Personally, I have all kinds of trouble writing a logline that is a grabber, however I've been told my scripts are pretty good.


This holds especially true if your script is about 'a group of teenagers find themselves the focus of a homicidal maniac's rage' or about 'a group of teenagers who must battle an army of zombies in order to survive.'

If you can't write a synopsis that separates your script from the scores of others like it, then don't post it.  Wait until you can describe it in a way that atleast makes it sound different.




Quoted from George Willson
Point is that if anyone new(er) is reading this thread and feeling a bit perturbed or fightened by all us regulars, there's no reason to be. We want help as much as the next person, and while some people get nasty sometimes about ideas or scripts, I always keep in mind one basic point: it is better to be torn apart when you can fix it, than to be torn apart when you can't. It would be better to know the shortcomings of your script now than to hook a producer with your logline only to have his reader chuck the script in the trash because it's no good.

So if you're lucky enough to have your baby ripped to shreds by someone who reads a lot, don't complain or run off and hide -- throw a freakin' party! Someone cared enough to read what you wrote and post comments about it. If someone comments on anything, even if they say it sucks, they still read something and left a comment. As for producers, if it's been a year, they probably said no.


And don't cop an attitude!  Doing so is a great way to make sure that no one reads your work in the future.  The best example of this comes from the guy who wrote 'Street Scriptures.'

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-series/m-1115556176/s-new/

After so much of this idiot's rants and self-glorification, everyone who commented on his scripts deleted their messages and left him alone.  He left shortly afterwards.


Phil
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 27th, 2005, 11:07pm; Reply: 25
Helio,

I would consider you to be a serious writer. It shows in your drive. I mean, English is not your first language and to be honest, I think your English is pretty darn good for it to be a second language.

So good in fact that you actually write with better spelling and grammar than some of the writers for whom English is a first language.

All I’m saying is that I think it’s sad that some people can say they want to be writers and yet don’t seem to care about the craft of writing.

I don’t consider myself to be anything other than a mediocre talent at best but I want to be a great writer really bad and I hope that shows in my work. If it doesn’t, it’s because I lack talent, not because I lack desire or because I’m not willing to put forth the effort.

My problem is with the writers who don’t put forth the effort. Maybe I just grew up in a different era. I was always taught that if you want something, you have to do the work to achieve it. I think a lot of writers here are doing just that.

But when a writer throws something together without so much as a proofread, like Dogglebe said, why should we care if they don’t?

I think you’re a talented writer Helio and I’ve very much enjoyed some of your work. I always know there will be something interesting and creative when I see your name.

I don’t want to upset people. I’m just stating my opinion (which is worthless) and telling why I don’t bother with some scripts by some people who don’t even care enough to so much as even proofread their logline. To me, that’s ridiculous.
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 27th, 2005, 11:26pm; Reply: 26

Quoted from dogglebe
And don't cop an attitude!  Doing so is a great way to make sure that no one reads your work in the future.  The best example of this comes from the guy who wrote 'Street Scriptures.'

After so much of this idiot's rants and self-glorification, everyone who commented on his scripts deleted their messages and left him alone.  He left shortly afterwards.


Thanks for the laugh. That was truly hilarious, especially the part about you being a fallen disciple. -- hahaha!
Posted by: George Willson, December 27th, 2005, 11:31pm; Reply: 27

Quoted from dogglebe
And don't cop an attitude!  Doing so is a great way to make sure that no one reads your work in the future.  The best example of this comes from the guy who wrote 'Street Scriptures.'

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-series/m-1115556176/s-new/

After so much of this idiot's rants and self-glorification, everyone who commented on his scripts deleted their messages and left him alone.  He left shortly afterwards.


I love going back to reread that thread occasionally. That guy was hilarious. Oh, Dogglebe, my fallen disciple. Art thou placing thyself beneath my lava lamp again. Dost thou find thyself worthy of such praise. My final words: These are not my final words for I will speak again to my brethren soon. From "The Overlooked One" and "The World's Greatest Cynic" George Willson.

You've gotta love someone that self-obsessed. I should actually read Street Scriptures at some point. Might work well for a lark.
Posted by: greg, December 27th, 2005, 11:39pm; Reply: 28
Breanne, you're too hard on yourself.  I've read some of your stuff and consider you one of the better talents on this site, so I think your opinion is pretty valid.

Helio, it's funny that English is your second language, yet your scripts have better grammar and spelling than some of the other shtuff posted on here.  Alot of the grammatical mess from inexperienced folk are things like "their" and "there" or the misuse of apostrophes.  I can't stand that!!!  I think you should start writing longer things and avoiding posting something new every week.  As someone said earlier in this thread, the anticipation to read your stuff will be greater.

Phil, thank you for posting that thread, I got a good laugh out of it :)
Posted by: bert, December 27th, 2005, 11:39pm; Reply: 29

Quoted from George Willson
I should actually read Street Scriptures at some point. Might work well for a lark.


Don't bother.  I checked it out once, and within a couple of pages came to this (a copy-and-paste excerpt):


"Angle from outside the shower: Mariah's naked body is silhouetted through the fogged-up glass door. It becomes apparent she is masturbating.

MARIAH (V.O.)
(Amused)
Look at me, playing with my self in the shower.
(Then)
This will be the high point of my day. It's all downhill from here."


Then I had to quit.  Hmm?  Is is me, or does this scene sound...familiar?

Did he honestly think nobody would notice?
Posted by: greg, December 27th, 2005, 11:41pm; Reply: 30
My word, when did Kevin Spacey get a sex change?
Posted by: Shelton, December 28th, 2005, 12:41am; Reply: 31
Doesn't everybody know that M-A-R-I-A-H spells Lester Burnham?

I applaud you, Bert.  I checked it out myself and didn't even get that far.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 28th, 2005, 7:42am; Reply: 32
What scene is this supposed to be copying, Bert?


Phil
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 28th, 2005, 9:00am; Reply: 33
Here’s a strange coincidence. I checked out another script from this same writer called “Never Really Was…” and it has a character named Kevin and another character whose last name is Spacey.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 28th, 2005, 9:06am; Reply: 34
I read the first episode of SS and was honest with the problems I found with it, like why would a drug lord (who's pulling in a million dollars a week, or something) would be in the street selling nicklebags?  Or why the same guy wouldn't buy a dishwasher for his pregnant wife/girlfriend.

It was just bad....


Phil
Posted by: Shelton, December 28th, 2005, 10:53am; Reply: 35

Quoted from dogglebe
What scene is this supposed to be copying, Bert?


Phil



Not to step on Bert's toes, but the scene he's talking about is exactly like the beginning of "American Beauty".


Mike

Posted by: bert, December 28th, 2005, 11:37am; Reply: 36
Ack!  Phil, I am surprised at you...

Anybody who has not seen "American Beauty" is hereby ordered to visit the video store this weekend!

Brilliant stuff...just brilliant...

(The script is available at S.S., btw.  A helluva read, too.)
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 28th, 2005, 12:18pm; Reply: 37
I just came from Blockbuster.  They didn't have Ax 'Em.


Phil
Posted by: Jonathan Terry, December 28th, 2005, 12:27pm; Reply: 38
Now to throw in my two cents...;)

I totally agree with everyone here about constructive criticisim.  I think if someone is not serious about their work and is showing no signs of improvement(meaning they are reading other's posts on their scripts) then they deserve what they get.  But I also feel that the way in which you do it is another story.

A poster on another screenwritting board I post on puts this before every review.  "I am not a professional and this is my humble opinion on your script.  If you don't agree then pay it no attention."

I have so much respect for him as a writter and reviewer.

Yet, some other people simply show criticism by blantantly slamming the writter for making mistakes.  If the writter is putting out shoddy work and shows no respect for others' comments then I can understand.  But going off on newbies who are trying to learn deserve constructive criticism in a different way.

But let me just say that I have a lot of respect for the "older" posters on this board(and mainly this thread).  I take everyone of your comments whole-heartedly.

T.I.N.
Posted by: Martin, December 28th, 2005, 12:53pm; Reply: 39
Hello people. Merry festive season to all.

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with everyone except breanne whose writing is far above mediocre. And Helio who should definitely stick around 'cause he's one of the most creative writers on the site.

As for constructive criticism. I agree with Phil and basically everyone else who has posted on this thread. How can people call themselves writers if they don't even proof-read or format their work? If people want criticism on their 'story', they have to learn to do the basics right i.e. formatting, spelling, and grammar. Otherwise the criticism is just a bunch of posts saying 'learn proper formatting'.

From my experience, the critiques on this forum are a lot kinder than you'll get elsewhere on the net and bad reviews are always more useful than heaps of praise. If anything, I think we should get nasty :)

Anyway, happy holidays to all. I won't be around for a while 'cause I'm off the Amsterdam for NYE! Woohoo!
Posted by: Helio, December 28th, 2005, 1:59pm; Reply: 40
Hei guys, you all got me emotional!

I'm so thank for your kind comments about me - my work - and Brea what a hell are trying to say with MEDIOCRE? Your writing is very nice and your feelings when you are analyzing our scripts are serious and consistent.

Now say with me - "I wont to say that I'm a mediocre writer, never ever!"

I'm sorry Greg to repeat here your lines. I agree with you 1000%:

"Breanne, you're too hard on yourself.  I've read some of your stuff and consider you one of the better talents on this site, so I think your opinion is pretty valid."

Thanks a lot everyone!
Helio
Posted by: MacDuff, December 28th, 2005, 2:10pm; Reply: 41
I'll also throw my 2 cents in. When I review, I tend to review the way I have had my work critiqued. I'll be honest, professional and to the point. It's the best trick to be honest, it will seperate the serious writers with the weekend hacks.

Also - I don't know how old people are when they post. Yeah, I can tell most of the time when I get into the script further, but I've read scripts from 15 year olds that stand above older people. When I review, I don't take age in consideration.

As for my own work, I never show first drafts to anyone. Sometimes my wife, but that's it. I don't post a lot of my serious work here as I am to critical of myself and consider it a work in progress. I usually post my shorts that I write when I take a break from my feature length work.

Stew
Posted by: George Willson, December 28th, 2005, 3:00pm; Reply: 42

Quoted from bert
Anybody who has not seen "American Beauty" is hereby ordered to visit the video store this weekend!

Brilliant stuff...just brilliant...


As well written as it may be, the plot is just warped and bizarre, not to mention just flat disturbing. I thought Lester's journey, as it were, was one of the strangest, and I really didn't like the ending either. Yes, the characters were well-rounded and believable, and I don't recall the plot having any holes, but the movie is just messed up.

Posted by: greg, December 28th, 2005, 6:04pm; Reply: 43
Some people have said that it's better to go easy on newbs, but what do you consider a newb? A newb to writing or a newb to the site? There are folks who have been submitting poor scripts for over a year and none of them have shown any signs of improvement.  Are they still a newb?  Just curious as to what you guys think.
Posted by: BigBadBrian, December 28th, 2005, 6:09pm; Reply: 44
I am a newb to this site, and I've surpassed being a newb for screenwriting. I think at least.

I've been writing since the age of 9 and have never stopped.

I'm not a great writer, but plan to be one after joining this marvelous site.
Posted by: Helio, December 28th, 2005, 6:46pm; Reply: 45
I'm here again!

Greg about "I think you should start writing longer things and avoiding posting something new every week. "

I wrote once a feature script to a producer, a European one, that paid me for that, but I really scared about to write long things mainly in English in order to avoid lots of mistakes and wrongs...

The script that I was hired to write, was posted here in this site and is in the Drama Session the title is: OPORTO’S BRIDE.

When I had just a logline (a guy has a dream in his life: to be a bride) and told the producer, he asked me to write this story immediately. It was in 1995/6.

By the way, who knows about a European film named MA VIE EN ROSE directed by Alain Berliner? My story seems to be the same in certain ways.

If you all want to take a look at it, please go and I'm here waiting in the gallows (Helio's Last Moments ) for your critiques!

Helio
Posted by: Jonathan Terry, December 28th, 2005, 9:11pm; Reply: 46

Quoted from greg
Some people have said that it's better to go easy on newbs, but what do you consider a newb? A newb to writing or a newb to the site? There are folks who have been submitting poor scripts for over a year and none of them have shown any signs of improvement.  Are they still a newb?  Just curious as to what you guys think.


A newb to me is a newb to screenwritting.  If someone is continually posting scripts and are not improving or show no resolve in correcting grammer/spelling errors, then they deserve to be bashed or recieve no reads.

Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 28th, 2005, 9:23pm; Reply: 47

Quoted from Jonathan Terry


A newb to me is a newb to screenwritting.  If someone is continually posting scripts and are not improving or show no resolve in correcting grammer/spelling errors, then they deserve to be bashed or recieve no reads.


Especially if they're cranking them like some people have here.  If you post a script every week, you won't even learn what your mistakes are until after you have three or four scripts posted.  By this point, you have a reputation of someone who ignores criticism.


Phil
Posted by: Shelton, December 28th, 2005, 10:18pm; Reply: 48

Quoted from dogglebe


Especially if they're cranking them like some people have here. 




I am shamed.

Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 28th, 2005, 10:45pm; Reply: 49
I was referring to anyone in particular...you little script cranker!

Actually, I find it amusing/interesting/whatever that some people can write that quickly.  It usually takes me a month to write a fifteen page short.  The only things I wrote quickly are my entry to the Midnight Madness competition and my entry to the previous one week excercise, here.


Phil
Posted by: George Willson, December 29th, 2005, 12:00am; Reply: 50
We all have different writing speeds and the speed really has no bearing on whether it is good or not. One can turn out script after script and still have quality material. The real key is whether you are learning anything from the criticism you receive.

I know I'm a cranker (Mike, us crankers have got to stick together), but I also read every single review I get and implement most of the changes suggested. Not only do I apply the suggestions to whatever was reviewed, but I also see if those things will apply to other things I do as well. I write because I enjoy writing, and yeah, I've turned out a ton of stuff. However, I like to think that what I do turn out is worth reading and not just a load of crap. I don't tend to finish crap, or if I do, I tend to rewrite it before putting it out there.

Some time ago, I posted a thread in work in progress detailing my writing of one of my scripts. Shameless and self-promotional, of course, but once I declared the script done, it was a month and half before I posted it. Why? Because I wanted to reread it with a fresh mind. I also drove Bert nuts waiting for it, which was also fun.

Whether you write fast or slow is of no consequence. Quality is what really counts. Whether you can turn out 10 scripts of quality in a month or only one in a year, remember, there's only one Oscar for best screenplay per year.
Posted by: Shelton, December 29th, 2005, 1:53am; Reply: 51
Ok, so maybe I wasn't exactly shamed, and just looking for a way to show those watching this thread that we all live in fear.  ;D


Quoted from George Willson
I know I'm a cranker (Mike, us crankers have got to stick together), but I also read every single review I get and implement most of the changes suggested. Not only do I apply the suggestions to whatever was reviewed, but I also see if those things will apply to other things I do as well. I write because I enjoy writing, and yeah, I've turned out a ton of stuff. However, I like to think that what I do turn out is worth reading and not just a load of crap. I don't tend to finish crap, or if I do, I tend to rewrite it before putting it out there.



Amen, brother!

I don't know, I guess I'm just a firm believer in the old saying "A writer writes".  In a different world, I too used to finish a script, set it aside for a bit, and then go back to it with the ability to be objective.

I find now that I can not only do that, but I can submit it here in the meantime, where I know that the ones reading it can be objective immediately and offer great feedback.

It's proven a very useful tool for me, since I've not only taken some of your suggestions for strengthening things up, but I've also been able to forge my own ideas from them as well.


Rock on, Simply Scripts, Rock on.

Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 3:11am; Reply: 52

Quoted from dogglebe
If you think you're script doesn't need improvement, then don't post it here.  Send it straight to Hollywood.  They can use perfect scripts.


That's what I should do!  Okay, I've got a pen, so tell me an address in Hollywood who'll actually take me seriously.  Lately because of a lot of nearby film productions, people have been calling my province in Canada "Hollywood North", but I've tried submitting my scripts to local producers.  I've literally seen them roll their eyes at the word "anime."  I've gotten great reviews here and elsewhere online, but those people don't know that.  Offline, I'm just some undereducated kid who likes cartoons.
Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 3:24am; Reply: 53

Quoted from Breanne Mattson


Alan,

You don’t need a spell check program to do a spell check. All you need is a dictionary, something readily available to most people. Surely you’re not suggesting that you can afford three computers but not a dictionary? And if you don’t own one, you can go to the library.

My opinion stands. You have no excuse not to proofread a draft before posting. Period.

You’re not asking me to help people out. You’re asking me to do the work for them and I won’t do it. If you didn’t have spell check, you should have quit being a lazy writer and picked up a dictionary.


When a writer posts a draft that has bad spelling and grammar, that writer is probably more interested in telling their story, and I'd rather have writers who care more about stories, than about spelling and grammar.
Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 3:45am; Reply: 54

Quoted from dogglebe
Especially if they're cranking them like some people have here.


I crank out new drafts which take into consideration all the criticism I've recieved, and then I hope for more criticism.  I've been doing this for a very long time, and it's working well.  The draft of Banana Chan before the current one which I'm cranking out, had a lot of holes punched into it by criticism, and so I was able to fit a new plot-line into those holes, in the new draft.  And the new plot-line is a romantic plot-line which is totally new, yet I can't imagine that I actually posted drafts of the script before that plot-line was part of the series.  The potential that new criticism might punch holes into the series so that I can fill those holes with new imaginitive stuff, is a potential which excites me, and that's part of the reason why I keep coming back to this site.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 7:54am; Reply: 55

Quoted from George Willson
Some time ago, I posted a thread in work in progress detailing my writing of one of my scripts. Shameless and self-promotional, of course, but once I declared the script done, it was a month and half before I posted it. Why? Because I wanted to reread it with a fresh mind.


So, you didn't just submit your first draft as soon as you finished it.  That's the way it should be.




Quoted from George Willson
I also drove Bert nuts waiting for it, which was also fun.


That's the way it should be, too.




Quoted from George Willson
Whether you write fast or slow is of no consequence. Quality is what really counts. Whether you can turn out 10 scripts of quality in a month or only one in a year, remember, there's only one Oscar for best screenplay per year.


Notice how I used the word 'crank' instead of 'write.'  When you crank something out, you're racing to finish it and submit it.  There's no prize for getting it done in a specific period of time.  Some people just don't realize that.


Phil
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 7:58am; Reply: 56

Quoted from Alan_Holman


That's what I should do!  Okay, I've got a pen, so tell me an address in Hollywood who'll actually take me seriously.  Lately because of a lot of nearby film productions, people have been calling my province in Canada "Hollywood North", but I've tried submitting my scripts to local producers.  I've literally seen them roll their eyes at the word "anime."  I've gotten great reviews here and elsewhere online, but those people don't know that.  Offline, I'm just some undereducated kid who likes cartoons.


Hollywood doesn't produce anime.  You have to find a studio or production company  that does.  That's all I can say about that.


Phil
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, December 29th, 2005, 9:13am; Reply: 57

Quoted from Alan_Holman
When a writer posts a draft that has bad spelling and grammar, that writer is probably more interested in telling their story, and I'd rather have writers who care more about stories, than about spelling and grammar.


Good for you. Personally, I don’t see what good it is to write a great story if you can’t effectively communicate it to a reader but if you can write a great story that produces maximum effect with a lot of misspellings and poor grammar, more power to you.

I just want it understood that I never said a writer shouldn’t try to write a great story. I’m just saying that a writer should try to communicate that story with strong communication skills. Spelling and grammar serve a writer and can make a tremendous difference in whether or not you get read.

But if you’re such a good writer as to be able to hook a reader with a lot of misspellings then, hey, you’re a better writer than I am. Me personally, though, I always feel like I want to make things clear to the reader so I care about grammar. Oh well. Guess it’s not for everyone.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 9:37am; Reply: 58

Quoted from Alan_Holman


When a writer posts a draft that has bad spelling and grammar, that writer is probably more interested in telling their story, and I'd rather have writers who care more about stories, than about spelling and grammar.


I'd rather have writers who care about the story and the grammar and the spelling.

As I've said before, when I read a script, I read it like agents and producers and whatnot read thtem.  While an occasional misspelling or grammatical error is acceptable, a lot of them is unforgiveable.  It's distracting to the story and shows that the writer doesn't know what he or she is doing.

I remember when I received notes back from the script doctor regarding 'The Burnout.'  He includes misspellings, typos and grammatical errors.  This is after I corrected the mistakes that the people on the board, here, pointed out.  

Is it possible to clean a script of ALL mistakes?  Probably not.  But if your script has five or more spelling mistakes on the first page, no one is going to care about how much work you put into your story.

And, for the love of God people, check the spelling and grammar on your story synopses.  I've seen them filled with mistakes.  If you can't clean up a simple paragraph, do you think I'm going to want to read 100+ pages of it?


Phil
Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 10:38am; Reply: 59
Of course I prefer good spelling.  Dispite that, I do have a point, and I'd like to debate it further, but my home internet just got disconnected because of a very overdue bill.  Hey, if anyone likes what I've been doing with my BANANA CHAN project, please support the continuation of that project, by going to the site and clicking on one of the paypal buttons or shopping at the online store.

The site:  http://www.geocities.com/radiomovie2002/

It was a long time ago when time constraints -- and other, more immediate problems -- caused me to post mentions of Banana Chan where-ever I could think of an excuse.  Looks like the old days have returned.
Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 10:42am; Reply: 60
... to add to my previous comment.

These "old days" I mentioned included annoying people out of neccesscity, not because I want to be annoying.  Just like how I had to post things without spell-checking them.  Someone should hire me for a creative job, damn it!  Find my scripts online and hire me!  

*grumbles*

I should log off now before I make an enemy or two.  **** this ****.

Have a nice day you guys!  See ya tomorrow!
Posted by: Old Time Wesley, December 29th, 2005, 7:57pm; Reply: 61
You aren't a threat to anybody to actually be an enemy. You make so many edits to your series I don't think many people care to continue reading it; you can't expect to keep an audience if they have to start all over again 2 weeks from now.

That's your only problem; you don't care about the people who are your audience. Alan does what he wants at the expense of the people that make Banana Chan great... the fans.

You wrote it great but without the readers you'll just fade away into obscurity and yes I mean further than some small town in Canada.

This topic has basically brought nothing new to the table, it just says what we've all known for so long and well it isn't doing anything. It's like the rules, people should care but they don't and never will until Don brings down the iron fist and says listen to me or you're gone and no second chances this time.

I have read many a great screenplays that have a lot of spelling errors and some by the group in this thread so I wouldn't act above the rest. Nobody is perfect though Alan is pushing that because I don't remember seeing more than 2 from the dozen or so episodes I read in the past which is really good.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 8:09pm; Reply: 62

Quoted from Alan_Holman
Someone should hire me for a creative job, damn it!  Find my scripts online and hire me!


That's an original sentiment!

Unfortunately, you're putting all your eggs in one basket by write only anime (a particularly small basket, I might add).

You may want to put Banana Chan down for a while and write something else.  I've covered several different genres with my writing (sci-fi, drama, horror, comedy, suspense).  Recently I answewred an ad for a horror writer.  I was able to send three shorts as samples of my writing.


Phil



Posted by: George Willson, December 29th, 2005, 10:41pm; Reply: 63

Quoted from dogglebe
Unfortunately, you're putting all your eggs in one basket by write only anime (a particularly small basket, I might add).

You may want to put Banana Chan down for a while and write something else.  I've covered several different genres with my writing (sci-fi, drama, horror, comedy, suspense).  Recently I answewred an ad for a horror writer.  I was able to send three shorts as samples of my writing.


I second that! I am no fan of zombie movies, and I readily admit that. I find the plot possibilities somewhat limited with that genre, so I don't write it. However, I have written TWO zombie scripts (well, one and a rewrite of one). Why? Because somebody wanted one. I have crossed genre lines I don't normally cross to both have practice in doing so and to have something to show for myself. I have stuff from multiple genres to show what I can do. I could very easily bury myself in The Fempiror Chronicles, a series that has received nothing but praise for its originality and how well it's written (yeah, self-promotional plug, but hey, it's the truth). I realize, however, that this series WILL NOT be produced by anyone worth mentioning unless I get something else produced to show that I'm worth my salt. Therefore, along with continuing to write on this, I work on a lot of other scripts in other genres. I've been contacted by two worthwhile people in the industry for minor projects. Still waiting for the official word on this stuff (although there is an unofficial positive in there, sh!), but I can tell you that if my only accomplishment was The Fempiror Chronicles, it is unlikely I would have been contacted. Branch out. Do other stuff. SHOW how creative you are, and people will notice.

Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 29th, 2005, 10:58pm; Reply: 64
Among the scripts I'm working on now is a slasher/horror flick, just to see if I can write one.  I'm also working on a sequel to The Burnout, which is more of an action flick than the first, as well as a dramatic vehicle for my character Sawyer (from my short, 'Linus').

On the back burner, I have some comedy shorts....

Point is, you have to work on a variety of things.  It increases your chance of selling something and oit helps you grow as a writer.


Phil
Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 30th, 2005, 12:53am; Reply: 65

Quoted from Old Time Wesley
You aren't a threat to anybody to actually be an enemy. You make so many edits to your series I don't think many people care to continue reading it; you can't expect to keep an audience if they have to start all over again 2 weeks from now.

That's your only problem; you don't care about the people who are your audience. Alan does what he wants at the expense of the people that make Banana Chan great... the fans.

You wrote it great but without the readers you'll just fade away into obscurity and yes I mean further than some small town in Canada.

This topic has basically brought nothing new to the table, it just says what we've all known for so long and well it isn't doing anything. It's like the rules, people should care but they don't and never will until Don brings down the iron fist and says listen to me or you're gone and no second chances this time.

I have read many a great screenplays that have a lot of spelling errors and some by the group in this thread so I wouldn't act above the rest. Nobody is perfect though Alan is pushing that because I don't remember seeing more than 2 from the dozen or so episodes I read in the past which is really good.


People who've read any entire draft of the series know that it's ABOUT finding a perfect time-line and therefore each "draft" is like a new season.  
Posted by: Alan_Holman (Guest), December 30th, 2005, 12:54am; Reply: 66
... but dispite that, the first nine episodes are locked and won't be re-drafted.
Posted by: Takeshi (Guest), February 2nd, 2007, 7:46pm; Reply: 67
On constructive criticism; Isaac Newton said; "Tact is making a point without making an enemy". That's something I try to keep in mind when reviewing someone’s work.  
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), February 2nd, 2007, 7:55pm; Reply: 68
And Irish diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that he'll look forward to thte trip.

At the same time, Bronx diplomacy means saying 'Good dog.  Good dog,' long enough to find a club.



Phil
Posted by: Combichrist, February 3rd, 2007, 5:02pm; Reply: 69
Myself the story is more important than the spelling and grammar, people have a knack for knowing what a Misplet word is than being able to follow the story. I have this one friend who uses big words to get his work noticed, rather than work on his stories... When a producer or whoever looks at your work, they won't care for the big words but only the story!!
Posted by: JD_OK, February 3rd, 2007, 8:00pm; Reply: 70

Quoted from Combichrist
Myself the story is more important than the spelling and grammar, people have a knack for knowing what a Misplet word is than being able to follow the story. I have this one friend who uses big words to get his work noticed, rather than work on his stories... When a producer or whoever looks at your work, they won't care for the big words but only the story!!



Grammar and spelling, go hand and hand with story. You can't get into a story with alot of those mistakes. You cant peak the interest without a good story.

They equally need to be on par.
Posted by: Death Monkey, February 6th, 2007, 2:52am; Reply: 71
I don't think there should be a choice between putting emphasis on story OR grammar. Emphasis should be on both. Always.

That's like saying the destination is more important than learning how to drive to get there. The story is very important but I won't bother 'getting' to the end if you're fishtailing all over the road (metaphorically).

Screenplay is a format and NOT just telling a campfire tale. So the story isn't the be all and end all of screenwriting, even though of course your script will be worthless without a good story.

Bad grammar puts me off. I think, either this person doesn't know his/her grammar or he doesn't bother to check it. Either way it's distracting.
Posted by: spencerforhire, May 26th, 2007, 7:51pm; Reply: 72
Hey Mike, I just wanted to leave a comment about your new avatar. SWEET! I like it, I really really do, alot. So, no critisism here.

Spencer
Posted by: Zack, May 26th, 2007, 7:55pm; Reply: 73
Yeah, I like it too! How'd you get it to look like you?
Posted by: Shelton, May 26th, 2007, 8:20pm; Reply: 74
It's a new thing that's hooked in with Photobucket.  I think it's called Weez, but it's customizable and you can make it look like anyone you want.  When you're done it drops face and full body pics into your album for use as an avatar or whatever.

I have a full body/scene pic on my MySpace page.
Posted by: Zack, May 26th, 2007, 9:22pm; Reply: 75
If i were to do that, my avatar would look similar to the way it does now.

... I'm so lonely...
Posted by: spencerforhire, May 27th, 2007, 1:14pm; Reply: 76
You need to get out Golem, and with a head like that you may want to bye a baseball hat. Ewww!

Mike, do you have a link to Photobucket?

Spencer
Posted by: Murphy (Guest), April 13th, 2009, 4:34am; Reply: 77
About time this old chestnut was given a bump.
Posted by: Old Time Wesley, April 13th, 2009, 4:43am; Reply: 78
This is where all that crap should have been in the first place. Not the two threads created because of it.
Posted by: JonnyBoy, April 13th, 2009, 7:33am; Reply: 79
I think the whole situation is getting way out of hand. Banning people isn't the answer. Not that I'm saying anyone's considering banning anybody, it was just mentioned on another thread.

I'm sure some sort of peaceful resolution can be reached, right?
Posted by: seamus19382, April 13th, 2009, 7:46am; Reply: 80
Jonnyboy, normally I would agree with you that banning people isn't the answer.  But there has to be an exception to every rule!
Posted by: Shelton, April 13th, 2009, 8:57am; Reply: 81
Nobody's going to get banned.  I don't even know why that was brought up.
Posted by: Helio, April 17th, 2009, 5:31pm; Reply: 82
I loved this discussion! I know I'm a bad example here for the new writers, but what I did writing my short scripts that way I wrote them was sincere and with heart. I confess that I knew that lot of them was made in order just to entertain all my dudes. Forgive me. All words of criticism I�ve received from you, made me to understand how hard is to be a writer and definitely all my time here together with people like Phil, Bert, Wasley, Greg, Higgs, Shelton, George and many others colleagues, encouraged me to write not a shot script but my first book. I have just one thing to say to you: thanks a lot for you criticism, honesty and mainly for the respect that you dialed with my foreigner condition.

cheers
Helio
Just in time: thanks to Brea, Andy, Cindy, Pia, Sandra, Ellis and all pretty SSGirls!
Posted by: steven8, April 17th, 2009, 8:49pm; Reply: 83

Quoted from Helio
. . .and all pretty SSGirls!


Aww, flattery will get you everywhere!!   ;D

Posted by: Baltis. (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 1:46am; Reply: 84
Me, personally, I love harsh, no gloves, bare knuckle criticism ... It's more productive no matter how it goes. Good or bad. I was well known around here, probably for the wrong reasons, for giving out my share of harsh criticism on scripts I felt inferior to my own and a few of the top writers here...

I always looked at it as if I'm not wasting your time with my screenplays, why are you trying to waste mine?  I'm sure I was wrong, and being banned from here enough times backs up that theory... but when it comes down to it being as honest and blunt as possible will only do one of two things to the writer and his/her work.

1 - It will make him/her want to be a better writer. Make them work harder at learning more ways to get the most out of their work by saying the absolute least. Make them learn the craft of screenwriting, so they can produce a work of praise and merit.

or

2 - Show them that if they can't take what others think or feel, then maybe they shouldn't be a writer. If words can cripple your will and desire to be a writer then the words your putting on the screen for me to read isn't written with enough passion for others to care about it either.  Think about what "YOU" want out of being a screenwriter and try to outclass your critics.


That's my take on things... It's good to be back after nearly 3 years away, by the way.  :)
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 3:17am; Reply: 85
Welcome back Balt.  I've heard a lot about you.


Quoted from Baltis.
Me, personally, I love harsh, no gloves, bare knuckle criticism ... It's more productive no matter how it goes.


I’m not trying to give you a hard time about this but I have to question you on one thing.  

You say it's more productive.  I think that largely depends on the person who wrote the script.  Some people respond to harsh criticism some don’t,  I’m sure you will agree that no two creative writers are quite the same and what works for one of them might not work for another.

Then a bit later…


Quoted from Baltis.

2 - Show them that if they can't take what others think or feel, then maybe they shouldn't be a writer.


I’m not sure how that is productive.  It seems a bit destructive to me actually.  

And like I said, I’m definitely not trying to give you a hard time about what you said. I’m just trying to understand it.
Posted by: Baltis. (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 10:57am; Reply: 86

Quoted from mcornetto
Welcome back Balt.  I've heard a lot about you.



I’m not trying to give you a hard time about this but I have to question you on one thing.  

You say it's more productive.  I think that largely depends on the person who wrote the script.  Some people respond to harsh criticism some don’t,  I’m sure you will agree that no two creative writers are quite the same and what works for one of them might not work for another.

Then a bit later…



I’m not sure how that is productive.  It seems a bit destructive to me actually.  

And like I said, I’m definitely not trying to give you a hard time about what you said. I’m just trying to understand it.


Good to be back~

Now, as for my reasoning... I think, from my stand point, it is more productive. I should've been more clear in my post above, but as you can see it was pretty late on my end.  ;)

When people give harsh criticism, and they're doing it for the right reasons... not simply to be an ass, then yeah... I think it's productive. A lot of times giving harsh criticism can detour some writers who simply don't have the heart to write, but they just "think" they can. Or, maybe, they just come here to waste other peoples time with a script that simply isn't worth your time.  I remember seeing screenplays here that weren't even in proper format, didn't include a fade in, fade out or a The end. To me those writers needed to be told about formatting first and foremost... If they repeated their mistakes I wouldn't read anything from them again.

And a Screenplay, if you read any of the books, isn't souly about grammar, 3 act structures and trying to fit everything you can on 1 page.  They're a blue print and nothing more. Tell the absolute most in the absolute least possible way. Be direct, be percise and, above all else, have a good story to tell no matter what.

If I don't have any of the following in a screenplay you read of mine, let me have it. Blast me with everything you got, cos' it's only going to help me as I set down to write my next one.  I mean, let's face it... If I was never told of mistakes I had made in a way that was superior to my own thinking, would I have ever learned? Perhaps... but I bet it would'nt have come as fast.

That's my take on things, and you're right... Not all writers are the same. Some writers are really good, yet they simply can't make good things out of bad criticism. I just don't wanna be one of those writers.  
Posted by: CindyLKeller, April 18th, 2009, 11:21am; Reply: 87
Oh my my!

Baltis! Welcome back! :-)

I, for one, am glad.

I never thought Balt down right thrashed anyone, but he would give honest reviews.
Reviews that helped the writer. Made them think.

Did you bring a new script with you, Balt?
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, April 18th, 2009, 1:07pm; Reply: 88

Quoted from Helio
…thanks to Brea, Andy, Cindy, Pia, Sandra, Ellis and all pretty SSGirls!


:) I knew there was a reason I liked you.


To Balt:

Welcome back. :)


In general:

My only problem with harshness is when people confuse it with honesty. A review is either honest or it’s not. It may just be a subjective opinion. I try and give the best advice I can. I’m always honest. But unfortunately I’m not always right.

I think honesty on the part of the person receiving a review is more important than the honesty of the review or the reviewer. Can the receiver process the information in an honest way? Can he or she recognize when a reviewer’s comments are true, when they’re unfair, when they’re just wrong, when they’re biased, when they have no idea what they’re talking about? When they’re absolutely right?

In my mind, the harshness of a review has nothing to do with its honesty. Or its sincerity. It’s more a matter of the personality of the person reviewing.


Breanne


Posted by: bert, April 18th, 2009, 1:41pm; Reply: 89
I am pleased that ol' Balt has resurfaced, too.  Knows his way around a Horror script, for sure, and can be pretty darn amusing...on his good days.

My contribution to this old relic of a thread is to remember the Golden Rule.

If you would respond negatively to having your script called a god-awful piece of shite, perhaps you should not foist that description upon the work of another.

If you would enjoy having your script called a god-awful piece of shite, please forward that information to Balt so he can craft an appropriate review for you.
Posted by: ReaperCreeper, April 18th, 2009, 4:03pm; Reply: 90
I think this Baltis guy (I *think* I remember him, but I'm not sure. I think I signed up just when he was banned) does have a point.

While I agree with Breanne that harshness and honesty are two completely different things , I think new writers -- screenwriters, specifically -- actually need to get used to a little bit of harshness. Just look at how the movie business is. It basically eats people alive and no one is there to hold your hand.

I have a friend over here. She's a great writer, but whenever she gets even the slightest bit of criticism on her work, she basically curls up into a ball and cries. Do you think someone with that kind of personality would ever make it in the business?

Now, I'm not saying you should use such language as "holy crap, your screenplay sucked ass!" because that could really demoralize a person.  But I do think a bit of toughening up is really important for a screenwriter.

I usually give pretty honest reviews and I really appreciate when somebody does the same for me. If I enjoy a script, I'll say it. If I do not enjoy it, I'll say it too. But I usually refrain from using harsh language or directly insulting the writer. That is something else entirely.

The thing is, not everybody is as emotionally strong as you would want, so you do need to be careful with the choice of words you use for your reviews. I'm not saying you should sugarcoat it, but there are ways of being completely honest without being offensive.

That's all I gotta say.

--Julio

Posted by: Baltis. (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 8:41pm; Reply: 91
Hey all! Thanks for the welcome back, it's good to be allowed back on again; that's for sure.  I absolutley have new scripts to post and am simply waiting it out until we are allowed to post them up again.   ;)

So, yeah... keeping with theme, if my work isn't up to par make sure you let me know about it. I don't care if you come at me with fangs and claws out, either.  :P
Posted by: Shelton, April 18th, 2009, 9:19pm; Reply: 92

Quoted from Baltis.
I don't care if you come at me with fangs and claws out, either.  :P


Excellent!  I have this guy on retainer.
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 9:23pm; Reply: 93

Quoted from Shelton


Excellent!  I have this guy on retainer.


Oh! He's cute.
Posted by: steven8, April 18th, 2009, 9:37pm; Reply: 94

Quoted from Shelton


Excellent!  I have this guy on retainer.


A gay vampire?

Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 9:39pm; Reply: 95

Quoted from steven8


A gay vampire?



Where were you during Interview with a Vampire?

Posted by: Shelton, April 18th, 2009, 9:41pm; Reply: 96
And to think, I only have to brush his hair and tell him he's pretty every now and then.  Luckily, I have someone else on retainer to do that.
Posted by: steven8, April 18th, 2009, 9:41pm; Reply: 97

Quoted from mcornetto


Where were you during Interview with a Vampire?



I avoid all modern Vampire stories like the plague which, by the way, was carried by Anne Rice.  :)
Posted by: steven8, April 18th, 2009, 9:42pm; Reply: 98

Quoted from Shelton
And to think, I only have to brush his hair and tell him he's pretty every now and then.  Luckily, I have someone else on retainer to do that.


That'd be Renfield?

Posted by: Shelton, April 18th, 2009, 9:45pm; Reply: 99

Quoted from steven8


That'd be Renfield?



Of course not.  He's off eating flies.

Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 9:46pm; Reply: 100

Quoted from steven8


I avoid all modern Vampire stories like the plague which, by the way, was carried by Anne Rice.  :)


Got your own nice piece of 1958 there, eh?
Posted by: steven8, April 18th, 2009, 10:09pm; Reply: 101

Quoted from mcornetto


Got your own nice piece of 1958 there, eh?


Are you referring to Blood of the Vampire, or my particular taste in things?   8)

Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 10:13pm; Reply: 102

Quoted from steven8
A gay vampire?


Twilight.



Phil

Posted by: steven8, April 18th, 2009, 10:52pm; Reply: 103

Quoted from dogglebe


Twilight.



Phil



Gotcha!

Posted by: Shelton, April 18th, 2009, 11:30pm; Reply: 104

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Banderas would do just fine though...


Yuck!  Christ!
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 18th, 2009, 11:43pm; Reply: 105

Quoted from Grandma Bear
???????????????????   :-/


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::)
Posted by: Shey LeRosen, January 16th, 2010, 2:51pm; Reply: 106
Okay, I looked for this in the FAQ and couldn't find it and I don't want to start a whole new thread over one trivial question so I thought I'd just tack it on here if you all don't mind. I tried to upload an avatar to my profile and I just get one of those little icons with the three-color palate on a square. Is there a particular format(s) the photo file needs to be in for it to take? Maybe .jpg or something? Mine is in bmp. If it's not that, then I'm doing something else wrong... Thanks!
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), January 16th, 2010, 4:37pm; Reply: 107
bmp might possibly work depending on the browser but to be same use jpg or gif.
Posted by: Sandra Elstree., January 18th, 2010, 10:02am; Reply: 108

Quoted from Shey LeRosen
Okay, I looked for this in the FAQ and couldn't find it and I don't want to start a whole new thread over one trivial question so I thought I'd just tack it on here if you all don't mind. I tried to upload an avatar to my profile and I just get one of those little icons with the three-color palate on a square. Is there a particular format(s) the photo file needs to be in for it to take? Maybe .jpg or something? Mine is in bmp. If it's not that, then I'm doing something else wrong... Thanks!


Shey, I don't know if this will help or not, but back awhile ago, I was having the same problem, but it had something to do with Mozilla firefox when my husband did some maintenance on my computer.

At the time, it worked in I.E. Anyways, all I had to do was shut the computer off and back on and presto, the glitch was fixed. Actually, it was more like: Presto! The glitch was fixed!  ;D

Anyways, regarding the start of this thread back in time-- A long long time ago....

Resurrect, resurrect, I say!  ;D ... It's definitely correct, that we should be very gentle with someone on here when they first get here.

Life is hell enough sometimes without being hard on someone who is just starting out.  :)

Sandra

Posted by: mattman2900, January 11th, 2011, 11:16pm; Reply: 109
Constructive criticism is fine with me.  If someone thinks my script is bad because they think I'm a bad person and personally attack me, that's their problem.  I probably wouldn't be too happy about being personally attacked (who would?) but telling me my script sucked and given relevant reasons why is fine.

My beef comes when some says "You're script sucked" and when I ask why, they respond by saying "Well, uh, I don't know... it just did" or "Because I didn't like it"  

That's personal taste and it's fine to say that personal taste is why you didn't like it, but don't use it as the reason my script or someone else's sucked.  

If others say it sucked too, then they might be on to something, but reasons need to be given like:

"You're script sucked because: you had 3000 typos or misspellings, the dialogue felt like it didn't work, the pacing didn't seem to correlate with the tone, etc."

I don't recall anyone (on this board) giving me useless advice or suggestions. Nor telling me I sucked as a person, because my script was sucky.  Nor have I been personally attacked.  



I agree that if a writer can't take criticism they probably shouldn't post it or send it to anyone they feel would knock their work read it.  I trust this site and the members to provide honest feed back.  I hated sending stuff to my parents b/c it took me a good five years for them to get past the "It was great" line and  tell me what the honestly thought of my script.  Now I know when I get "It was good - means "meh, it sucked"  

I have yet to be ripped by producers so that will probably be fun... okay maybe not, lol. Though I actually look forward to that experience (yeah, I'm weird that way I guess).  Kind of like I actually enjoy the audition process (8 execs in suits and sunglasses that look like they are secret service staring at you as you stand there smiling waiting for the CD to call, point at you or look up from the table - all signs for you to begin)
Posted by: mazmik, June 7th, 2011, 1:12am; Reply: 110
Hi guys and gals, Ok, I joined this site only yesterday, I have really enjoyed reading the screenplays and scripts and the comments too, I understand that ripping someone's work to shreds can't be very nice, however, it is for the constructive criticism that I have joined this site.
Although I am not a kid, (I wish), I am looking forward to uploading my first screenplay to the site, and even more, I am looking forward to having you guys read and comment on it. As this will be not only my first screenplay on here, but also my first screenplay ever.
I am currently off work through ill health and as I have a great interest in film and everything that goes on behind the camera I thought I would try my hand at turning a short story, (written by my wife), into a screenplay. I will be uploading it in a few days so keep a look out.
I look forward to your help.
Mike
Posted by: Ron Aberdeen, June 7th, 2011, 5:29am; Reply: 111
The problem with message boards is you have no idea who you are addressing. Almost certainly we will not know their age, experience, ability to take criticism or their true intentions of submitting a script to be reviewed.

If they are young and new to writing it is unlikely that their work will be engaging, correctly structured, perfectly formatted or offered in a reasonable presentation.

Young writers probably because of their inexperience in life will take critique badly and personally. However life is hard, entering a professional field in anything is difficult and if a writer wants to progress they have to learn to roll with the punches.

Or as had been said before, “If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen”.

Ron Aberdeen
http://www.ronaberdeen.com
Posted by: kidd8th, September 9th, 2011, 12:51am; Reply: 112
I will say this, I was run off this site for a while. I didn't get hard criticism, but it was the first time I actually heard that my work wasn't "good enough" or "decent". Of course my friends and fam supported me, but they knew me. I finally brought my work to others here, and didn't get that vibe I was looking for.

Long story short, some people, like me at the time, struggle with criticism. I kept writing, and kept working on my skills, and even now, when I look back at some of my older work, even I think "What the hell was I thinking". After years showcasing my work, I've gotten one made into a film (a really really low budget film, lol), had a scene in one of my series made into a short, and am in the process of selling another feature.

What I'm trying to say, for the people who feel the way I used to feel, everyone is just here to help. I took it the wrong way, but as I kept writing, and getting my work into the right hands of certain people, I took criticism along the way. Some of it helped, some of it didn't, but you just have to keep writing. Believe in yourself, and you'll be fine..... IMO anyway.
Posted by: Pale Yellow, October 17th, 2011, 8:06am; Reply: 113
New to the board and writing, I will concur, I just got some really good criticism. At first when I read it, I was like...I need to throw my writing right into the trash. But then I thought.....found this site, wrote my first owc in literally two hours in Panera Bread, didn't edit or even reread it, entered it into this OWC thing, and umm got a lil bit ripped to shreds. BUT then I thought to myself after reading some of the very intelligent remarks, this is GOOD not bad. I mean I love movies and I've always loved to write creatively. So, I'm not giving up yet. And want to say THANKS to those who do critique our work in here. It's really the only way to learn and now I think I will read some professional scripts and work on my skills.
Posted by: Eoin, October 17th, 2011, 8:25am; Reply: 114
Welcome to the boards Pale Yellow. As a writer, the most valuable lesson you can learn is sepearting yourself from your work, one you seem to have taken on board. Most people take the criticism 'personally'. Criticism is only ever personal, if the writer is directly addressed, rather than the script and that shows poor skills by the reviewer. Like you said, if you can learn something from the feedback provided then it's never really negative.
Posted by: jwent6688, October 17th, 2011, 8:38am; Reply: 115

Quoted from Pale Yellow
Found this site, wrote my first owc in literally two hours in Panera Bread,


Can't think of a more cliche place to write a script. Maybe a coffee house? It is cool you're receptive to criticism. It's not cool that you only have one post and you entered the OWC. So instead of giving other writers feedback, you just blah,blah, here?

This board is great for learning to write in this fashion, but you have to give back a little. Otherwise, people will not read your stuff.

James

Posted by: Reef Dreamer, October 17th, 2011, 8:42am; Reply: 116
Hello Pale

Taking the hard stuff on the chin can be difficult. This is only my second OWC and already i fell i have been through a long process. In the last one I took a good beating, which was particularly hard as I really liked my script. Shame about the others!

One month later things have improved. why? Because I listened, didn't give up and kept going, so your attitude is right.

The SS site is great for this but, whilst everyone is different, for me it still needs effort to make that improvement, so keep going.

All the best.

Posted by: leitskev, October 17th, 2011, 8:56am; Reply: 117
Pale Yellow, this site is about shared reads. It's a lot of work reading other's material. It's a sacrifice. If I had to read scripts all day, I would prefer reading pro material. But I'm reading amateur because I too am an amateur, and it's all about sharing feedback.

If you are not posting because you think you are unqualified, that is the wrong approach. You like movies, so you are qualified. Now start reading and reviewing please.
Posted by: leitskev, October 17th, 2011, 9:22am; Reply: 118
Pale Yellow, I just read your review of an OWC script. Ok, you've started, good. But from that remark I can't tell if you even really read the script.

You won't be able to do this with every script, but to help a writer you need to tell him what worked and what did not work for you with his story. Don't be afraid to be negative, either, as long as it's honest and specific. For example, don't say 'your writing stinks'. Say what you don't like about the writing, or the story, or whatever, so he can improve.
Posted by: Pale Yellow, October 17th, 2011, 10:40am; Reply: 119
Hmmm since about 9am I have been reading and leaving feedback on the OWC scripts. I'm so open to learning. I don't mind being beaten up a lil if it will teach me....we learn from our mistakes. Next time, I'll take it a lil more seriously and actually think about what I'm pounding out and b4 submitting it ...I WILL reread it :) Live and Learn...this place has some killer talent. I think I'm addicted.
Posted by: wonkavite (Guest), October 17th, 2011, 11:35am; Reply: 120
Here-here regarding some of the comments recently on this thread.

Just to put in my two cents - on both sides of the coin.

1) As a writer, I completely understand the "writer's ego".  It hurts like heck when someone rips into your scripts, especially when you think you've got it perfect.  Sometimes, they're dead wrong.  Ignore such criticism.  But it's worth taking a moment, stepping away from any *constructive* criticism for about a day, then coming back and seeing if any of it rings true.  I've had both kinds (as we all do.)  Some of it is completely off base.  And some of it...improved my scripts significantly.  It's worth taking time to cool off, and see which area the criticism falls into.

2) For those of us who are "Veterans" of the board.  PLEASE, for God's sakes, remember that some board members are brand new.  Other commenters here are right.  It's easy to get scared away from this craft...including writers that would otherwise - if nutured - truly come into their own.  And whether the writer's veteran or novice, it is NEVER acceptable or fair to simply slam a script.  That's simply petty, nasty, and bad for the board's rep in general.  Remember what yo' momma told you, fellas.  If you can't say anything nice....  Either shut up, or put it more constructive terms.

Nuff said.  Welcome, all newbies to the board!  :)
Posted by: ajr, October 17th, 2011, 11:58am; Reply: 121
My momma told me if you can't say something nice, then say it to your father...

(0:
Posted by: irish eyes, October 17th, 2011, 9:37pm; Reply: 122
If you plan on submitting your script on this site, take the good with the bad. There are a lot of honest writers on here, who will say exactly how they see it and that`s not a bad thing, as long as its constructive critisim and not attacks on personal.

Other thing to remember, this a free site, there are not too many sites out there that offer you feedback without a fee,  so it`s fellow writers taken time to read your script and not everyone gets feedbacks.

If you don`t like what someone writes, send them a pm explaining why they wrote it.
Posted by: Forgive, October 24th, 2011, 4:33pm; Reply: 123
I think, that if I've learnt anything, it's that giving feedback requires as much thought and attention as does writing the script in the first place. It's still writing, laying your thoughts on the pages for someone else to read. If you're a writer, then in order to respect your craft, then you should always write with some level of aforethought, consideration and attention to detail. Critiquing a script is a skilled business - an art in itself.

The first scripts I posted here all received negative feedback - fine in itself, if it's not a good script. My problem was that people were not really explaining why the scripts were bad - I had to almost demand to know what was wrong with them. The negative feedback didn't stop - it just became constructive, and that's where the learning curve began to kick in.

You can't educate people just by saying what they have done is crap; you can only help people when you begin saying why it's crap - and it's in that saying-why-process that the thinking begins.

I love sound preachy.
Posted by: Sandra Elstree., October 24th, 2011, 10:49pm; Reply: 124

Quoted from dogglebe
Among the scripts I'm working on now is a slasher/horror flick, just to see if I can write one.  I'm also working on a sequel to The Burnout, which is more of an action flick than the first, as well as a dramatic vehicle for my character Sawyer (from my short, 'Linus').

On the back burner, I have some comedy shorts....

Point is, you have to work on a variety of things.  It increases your chance of selling something and oit helps you grow as a writer.

Phil


I agree completely here. Although my work will probably always tend to be on the meaningful absurdist side of the scale, the fact remains that whatever one is writing, one should work on a variety. Not that one will always stew in a multiple pot, but in the embryonic stages, I think it helps to develop and ultimately stretches a writer's ability.

Sandra
Posted by: courhaw, January 14th, 2012, 10:47am; Reply: 125
what does it take to get reviews here? i have reviewed in the past -- got no reciprocity -- then i stopped reviewing; people though that i was being mean spirited -- but i thought i was being helpful...my writing has been boosted and in part, styled by the writers here -- i love this site, the writers make me work and i do work at it all the time. but still, no reviews...perhaps then someone can steer me in the direction of someone in Hollywood that i can send my scripts to? i'm beginnin to wonder if my skills haven't crossed some sort of imaginary plane into a higher realm of writing or something like that -- since i can't even get negative reviews either.
Posted by: CoopBazinga, January 14th, 2012, 11:35am; Reply: 126
Hey Courhaw,

What scripts do you have uploaded? I will be happy to give it a review for you when time allows but remember I am new at this so all criticism is from a beginner.

Steve
Posted by: Grandma Bear, January 14th, 2012, 12:12pm; Reply: 127

Quoted from courhaw
what does it take to get reviews here? i have reviewed in the past -- got no reciprocity

I have had a lot of people reading my shorts here. I always try to return the favor. However, if you're new and don't use your real name here then it can be hard to know where to even find your scripts. It's a good idea to put links to your scripts in your signature.  :)
Posted by: bert, January 14th, 2012, 12:17pm; Reply: 128
The lady above me is absolutely correct, and I would add that you might want to adjust your expectations.

Expecting a return read every time you drop a sentence or two on somebody's script is not realistic.

Hang around -- get a rep for leaving good feedback -- and then people will seek you out.
Posted by: leitskev, January 14th, 2012, 12:44pm; Reply: 129
Courhaw

Definitely put links to your scripts in your signature. That really, really helps.

Have you posted shorts or features? I can tell you that I try to read and comment on all shorts posted by regulars, though I do miss some or take a while to get to them.

Features are another matter. It takes time to read and make useful comments on a feature. I would say it takes at least 2 hours out of my day, usually more like 3, sometimes more. I won't do it anymore, generally, unless I feel like the favor will be returned. And a key concept for me is "useful" review.

For a review to be useful to me, it makes no difference whether that review came from an old veteran or a just off the boat beginner. There is honestly equal value in both. I can get some really insightful remarks from veterans based on their extensive knowledge and experience. But the remarks from beginners often has a purity to them that reflects the regular movie audience and is untainted by things like film theory.

However, if someone reads my feature and says basically, "nice job", or "this sucks", it doesn't help me develop my story in any way. What I need to know is what works and what does not. What characters do you like, what characters could you not buy into. Things like that. If someone just reads my story and gives generic remarks that they could have gleamed from skimming, or from reading others remarks, I am not inclined to dedicate 2 or 3 hours of my life to reading their feature.

I am not directing those remarks toward you. I don't recall any of your reviews. I'm just explaining my approach, maybe it helps. I honestly don't recall seeing your work posted or your reviews, but I will try to watch for them. Best of luck.
Posted by: Electric Dreamer, January 14th, 2012, 12:56pm; Reply: 130
Courhaw,

Another good way to garner reviews is linking your scripts in your signature.
Someone sees your thoughtful review and reads through it.
Then, right there at the bottom is a convenient link, allowing them to reciprocate. ;D

E.D.

|   |   |
V  V  V
Posted by: courhaw, January 14th, 2012, 3:00pm; Reply: 131
thanks guys -- i'll definitely review more and more in depth -- we'll see what happens after that...
Posted by: Penoyer79, February 23rd, 2012, 1:49am; Reply: 132
ive noticed some things reading through lots of critques over the last week and thought this thread could use a timely BUMP up to the top. might do some good for n00bs and regs alike to go through and read some of the stuff in here.

lets remember that we're all here to help eachother. it's not a competition and no one's going to win anything.

personal opinions should be given out as they are - personal opinion.... and not like the word of God. at least this is what i'm all about. as i said in another thread... i may not be half the writer a lot of you are - nor will i ever claim to be - but i still have an opinion i am happy to throw out on a board that welcomes it. its honest, and its personal - and in no way is it to be taken with anything more then with some grains of salt.

yes there are some rules, guidelines, and standards that need to be followed and we should share and point these out to the unknowning  - not beat them senslessly over the head with the Writer's Bible.


cheers
Chris

(made some edits)
Posted by: LC, February 23rd, 2012, 2:40am; Reply: 133
Chris, this has been discussed recently. You might want to look at this thread.

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-Chat/m-1328988914/
Posted by: Penoyer79, February 23rd, 2012, 3:01am; Reply: 134
yeah i know... looked some but couldnt find that thread.... so i just went here... little late to the party i guess, but hey better late then never. plus i'm still a bit of mystery to some people on this board.... and wanted to kind of give everyone a gist of what i'm all about. and my approach to handing out opinions and critiques - as well as taking them too
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), February 23rd, 2012, 10:07am; Reply: 135
Some mysteries are better left unsolved...
Posted by: Pale Yellow, February 23rd, 2012, 10:40am; Reply: 136
When I first started here, I too, felt like there were some harsh critiques on here...was almost turned off by it.

BUT that said, NOW I would go to the HARDNOSED reviewers first hand for help because these are the ones that wake me up to what I'm doing wrong.

Sometimes it may hurt your feelings, but take it with a grain of salt and consider youself lucky that they would even take a stab at reading some of OUR new stuff.

Thank you to the everyone in here for all you've done to help me in my learning curve. And I'm sure I have many more lashings to come, but call me a sadist if you want, I look foward to any reviews good or bad.
Posted by: CoopBazinga, February 23rd, 2012, 11:00am; Reply: 137
I personally love harsh critiques! It's the best way to learn IMO.  ;D ;D
Posted by: leitskev, February 23rd, 2012, 11:50am; Reply: 138
Honesty is the key word, and the most helpful approach. I personally would rather just tell everyone I love their work. But to help them, you have to be honest about flaws you find.

Same applies to reviews of my work. Obviously you want people to approve your stuff, but it's the criticism that's helpful.

Honesty also means constructive, however. Every script you open should be a script you want to succeed, or don't open it. There's no room for attacking scripts for personal reasons, or because of some kind of general bitterness or frustration. Give a script a chance, then advise how it could be made better.
Posted by: Penoyer79, February 23rd, 2012, 11:51am; Reply: 139
i completely agree. honest constructive criticism is what im looking for.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Some mysteries are better left unsolved...


see kids, we writers call that a "cliche"... better off avoiding those  ;)

Posted by: irish eyes, February 23rd, 2012, 11:58am; Reply: 140

Quoted from Steve
I personally love harsh critiques! It's the best way to learn IMO.


You tell them Steve! The fact that you`re one yourself helps :)

Mark
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), February 23rd, 2012, 1:33pm; Reply: 141
Christ, I can't believe this thread is still breathing...


Quoted from Pale Yellow
BUT that said, NOW I would go to the HARDNOSED reviewers first hand for help because these are the ones that wake me up to what I'm doing wrong.


There's a difference between a harsh and honest review and one that is just mean and demoralizing.  Writing the latter will scare the new writers from the site.


Phil

Posted by: leitskev, February 23rd, 2012, 2:25pm; Reply: 142
I actually remember my first posted work. It was actually the first time anyone had read my work anywhere. And it was about a year ago, the Feb OWC.

It's definitely a weird feeling, especially when it's your first and you have no idea how people will react to your writing. When the returns start coming in negative, it's definitely demoralizing.

As I remember it, the first reviews were either negative, or people just trying to be nice. Then a few good reviews came in to balance it off. Jeff, who I did not know, wrote that my writing was awful...but his review was actually encouraging because he hated the writing but liked the story. So I began trying to learn how to write.

But I agree with Phil, the idea should be to help and encourage a writer, whether it's a new writer or a veteran. If someone's purpose in reading a script is only to attack it, for whatever the reason, you're wasting your time and the writer's.
Posted by: CoopBazinga, February 23rd, 2012, 7:49pm; Reply: 143

Quoted from irish eyes


You tell them Steve! The fact that you`re one yourself helps :)

Mark


You think I'm a harsh critique, Mark? I always thought I was a nice critique if that's possible :)

Posted by: irish eyes, February 23rd, 2012, 8:20pm; Reply: 144

Quoted from Steve
You think I'm a harsh critique, Mark? I always thought I was a nice critique if that's possible


Ahh Good morning sunshine!!  touched a nerve there, buddy :) .... I knew I could break you, you harsh critic.

Your one of the nicest englishmen ever besides Hugh Grant!


Mark

Posted by: CoopBazinga, February 23rd, 2012, 9:08pm; Reply: 145

Quoted from irish eyes
Your one of the nicest englishmen ever besides Hugh Grant!


One of my worst insults ever! How can Hugh Grant be nicer? ;D ;D That new avatar has broken me, it's terrible. Change it immediately >:(
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 7:48am; Reply: 146

Quoted from Penoyer79
lets remember that we're all here to help eachother. it's not a competition and no one's going to win anything.


Actually, for those of us trying to go pro, it is a competition.  If someone is looking is looking for a Filipino tranny romcom and several people here have such a script, we'll be competing over who catches the director/producer's eye.  Until then, however, we can be nice to each other.

Oh crap!  I just gave away the theme and genre to the OWC.


Phil

Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 8:30am; Reply: 147

Quoted from dogglebe


Actually, for those of us trying to go pro, it is a competition.  If someone is looking is looking for a Filipino tranny romcom and several people here have such a script, we'll be competing over who catches the director/producer's eye.  Until then, however, we can be nice to each other.

Oh crap!  I just gave away the theme and genre to the OWC.


Phil



Actually, like the OWC, the site is not a competition -- it's a challenge :-).   But if you do compete against each other on the site, I hope you do so by writing quality  screenplays instead of trying to tear each other down.  
Posted by: Penoyer79, February 24th, 2012, 10:37am; Reply: 148
interestingly enough the Regs rarely seem to go after eachother. most of the "tearing down vitirol" gets directed at the n00bs....which was sort of my point. there's a bit of a "prove yourself" mentality on this board.

so maybe by competitiveness i mean... elitist? (ugly word)

which works out if your going for the whole "microcosm of Hollywood" deal
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 10:55am; Reply: 149

Quoted from Penoyer79
interestingly enough the Regs rarely go after eachother...which is funny because they are the tough competition. most of the "tearing down" gets directed at the  n00bs....


Not all the regs do this...

Also, a lot of the regulars are also on Facebook.  That's usually where the real trashing occurs.


Phil

Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 11:56am; Reply: 150

Quoted from Penoyer79
interestingly enough the Regs rarely seem to go after each other.


;D ;D ;D ;D

Yeah, right.  Sure they don't!!!  Phil and a couple others are notorious for getting "Regular Members" banned for life...and they're proud of it.

And, BTW, "elitist" is a good way of looking at a number of these people.
Posted by: Andrew, February 24th, 2012, 12:27pm; Reply: 151
Writing is a product of passion and if someone phrases something not to a writer's liking, there's a propensity to believe it's personal - if that writer ultimately thinks their work is rather good. Some people are not really looking for alternative perspectives, but rather affirmation of what they perceive 'ready' in its current form.

I roll my eyes when I see an over the top review that is more about the reviewer coming off as knowledgeable and clever; but I also roll my eyes when a writer basically throws your effort back in your face. I'd call those peeps ungrateful. If I read your feature, for example, I at least expect some acknowledgment that you've addressed my points. Even if you disagree. Stuff like that. Above all, we should appreciate people giving their time for free. It's not a big deal, to be fair, but more of a pet peeve.

If I read a script, I've done it as a favour, or from a request, or simply to give a perspective. I hesitate to use the word "help", 'cos to me help would be someone with an ability to make it better based on experience or talent. If Spielberg read my script and gave pointers, that's what I'd call help.

Looking for motivations behind reviews, or assessing the review on the basis of how you view the person, or being unnecessarily defensive are really just symptoms of not being in touch with your gut. There's a technical learning curve, as well as a constant evolution to harness your skills (and that's why differing perspectives are great), but you have to put it through your own lens of what is right for your story. That's where the talent comes in, I think. Anyone can write a script. Not everyone can filter it through their lens and know in their gut what works.

I agree with Phil, though - this topic has run its course!
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 1:20pm; Reply: 152
And I'm surprised to say this, but I agree with Andrew, pretty much 100%.

Let's let it die now, can we?  A new OWC is on the horizon, so let's start shifting our gears from reviewing to writing, because, really, that's what it's all about, isn't it?
Posted by: leitskev, February 24th, 2012, 2:37pm; Reply: 153
Andrew brings up an interesting point about responding to reviews. I have not yet determined where the right balance is. One doesn't want to seem like they are being argumentative or defensive, or expecting the reader to be even more generous with their time. At the same time, engaging them in further discussion recognizes their points, and sometimes leads to an improvement in the script.

As far as the topic running its course...are you kidding me? If you're tired of it, don't check in and read the thread. I never get how people make comments like that. No one makes anyone read a thread. That's where the elitism comes into play at SS, and it's more a clique kind of thing. You'll hear a regular grumble, "well, this has been covered." Then just be quiet and stay of the thread for crike's sake!

THIS more than anything else scares away new members at SS. Not harsh reviews. It's the sense that it's a clique, a tone that seems to reveal itself from time to time. People can say what they want about Jeff, and I've had my issues, but he's not cliquey.
Posted by: Penoyer79, February 24th, 2012, 2:53pm; Reply: 154
i have to agree with leitskuv here

letting this thread die completely would be a mistake. it needs to be left open for a bump once in a while as a"friendly reminder".....because lets face it -we've hit on some issues with this board....

there's a reason this thing is 13 pages long, 6 years old, and still going strong. i made 1 post the other day...and 20+ responses.

one of your own mods just posted a Poll the other day about Tolerance when it comes to this very same issue!

obviously this isnt a problem that will ever go away completely...but we can at least do our part to regulate it to a minimum

a periodical review of the contents in this thread and some discussion on it can go a long way. plus it doesnt hurt anyone.

with a OWC on the horizon - this was the perfect time to bring this back.
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 3:49pm; Reply: 155

Quoted from Dreamscale


;D ;D ;D ;D

Yeah, right.  Sure they don't!!!  Phil and a couple others are notorious for getting "Regular Members" banned for life...and they're proud of it.

And, BTW, "elitist" is a good way of looking at a number of these people.


I have to correct you here.  It's not easy to get banned for life from this site.  And it has nothing to do with what "Phil or the Regs" do or think.  The responsibility for that lies solely on the person banned.  

Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 4:07pm; Reply: 156

Quoted from mcornetto
I have to correct you here.  It's not easy to get banned for life from this site.  And it has nothing to do with what "Phil or the Regs" do or think.  The responsibility for that lies solely on the person banned.


Well, Michael, I will respond and be done here, but you and I both know of a very good example in which Mr.  Sock Puppet did everything in his power to make a certain someone respond in ways which got him banned.

I understand Don made the decision and based that decision on a number of things, but I for one know damn well that PuppetHead went out of his way to make it happen.

Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), February 24th, 2012, 4:19pm; Reply: 157

Quoted from Dreamscale


Well, Michael, I will respond and be done here, but you and I both know of a very good example in which Mr.  Sock Puppet did everything in his power to make a certain someone respond in ways which got him banned.

I understand Don made the decision and based that decision on a number of things, but I for one know damn well that PuppetHead went out of his way to make it happen.



And Jeff, I am only responding to this because I don't want you filling peoples heads with misinformation.  You might see it like that, but you're not looking at it objectively.  Banning people from the site is not a subjective decision.
Posted by: Penoyer79, February 24th, 2012, 4:22pm; Reply: 158
lol i remember that. good times.
in other words....its okay phil, we don't blame you... we blame the sock!!
you have to admit its quite entertaining when you rile up the lil monster.

im hungry. think i'll go have myself a ba-

oh nevermind.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, February 24th, 2012, 4:43pm; Reply: 159
This is a thread that never ends,
It just goes on and on my friends,
Some people started posted in it not knowing what it was
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because,
This is a thread that never ends,
It just goes on and on my friends,
Some people started posted in it not knowing what it was
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because....

C'mon people. Sing with me!!!   ;D :K) 8) :o ;)
Posted by: Andrew, February 24th, 2012, 7:47pm; Reply: 160
I'm certainly not colluding as part of a clique to silence the righteous cause of keeping this thread going!

To be fair, I only suggested it had run its course 'cos the thread pops up every now and again (usually when someone's disgruntled with a review) and the same convo then happens over and again. It seems to deviate away from Chris' original post  - which was more concerned with discouraging teenagers who could blossom into fine writers without unnecessary barracking of their work. That seems quite different from general disapproval of reviewing that is more for the reviewer's kicks (something I have poo poo'd as a concept before). I'd imagine that's why bert started a fresh thread from this one, but as I don't collude with him in an Allen/Newcomer clique, I can't say for sure. Plus, I'm probably wrong about his intentions there.

But seriously, man, I don't think that's an active on-going attempt to curtail freedom of speech on the site, nor do I think retention of new members is dependent upon 'I think this thread has run its course'.


Quoted from JB
Let's let it die now, can we?  A new OWC is on the horizon, so let's start shifting our gears from reviewing to writing, because, really, that's what it's all about, isn't it?


I agree with this completely.
Posted by: mikep, March 1st, 2012, 11:22am; Reply: 161
This is the type of topic that needs to continue as it seems to always be an issue. In fact that's one of the main reasons I left the site originally was due to being tired of reading a review of someone's script and seeing people just being jacka$$e$ .  

Just as there's proper ways to write the script, there are proper ways to give feedback. There's nothing wrong with harsh, direct feedback but IT HAS TO BE HELPFUL.  If a review just consists of "man you didn't even try, this is crap, I was so mad reading your script" and the like, you can bet that person is going to start ignoring your feedback right then and there.

Read your feedback out loud before posting it. Would you say this to the person's face? if not then rewrite your feedback. Good lord, when I gave people feedback on the job or their annual reviews, I'd never even think of saying the type of things that here may pass for "constructive".  

Some get it...there are some fine reviewers here.  Some just want to punch people and see them crumble so they can feel superior.

I can take all the negative feedback there is. I know I've written some good, solid scripts, and some crap.  Usually I know when it's crap. :D   But, especially when you're dealing with someone who maybe has submitted their first script...it pays to be honest, direct...but in a helpful manner.

When someone wants to offer help...and that's the key... "offer help", people will gladly take it.  

Bottom line, and this may sound trite but it is NEVER WRONG: there's no excuse for rudeness.  

So says Mary Poppins.
Posted by: leitskev, March 1st, 2012, 12:20pm; Reply: 162
I had to go back to see if my words in any way suggested  "collusion". Naturally, they did not. No collusion was suspected, implied or imagined. Strange. Or maybe not.

The topic of the thread is "constructive criticism". The purpose of the website is for writers to review each others work. Those reviews by necessity involve criticism. So the topic will never run its course. Just like format issues, it will be relevant as long as the site exists. And with new members always joining, they not be familiar with the viewpoints raised in 2009.

Will arguments get rehashed? Will people raise matters that were raised before? Of course they will. Will regulars who've been here for years want to read those remarks, the same things that pop up every couple of years? No. And they shouldn't. Unless they're bored and want to kick in and contribute. Same as other arguments, like bold slugs.

To a new member, when someone suggests a conversation has run its course, they will read that as "shut up". In fact, they'll probably read it as "shut up, we've heard this before, you're disturbing us". Yeah, cliquey.
Posted by: Penoyer79, March 1st, 2012, 5:36pm; Reply: 163
i think the bottom line is... you dont need to be an elitist asshole to get your fucking point across. i mean really....thats what this is all about. its not directed at any one individual... so dont get your panties in twist.

i think we're all in the same boat here.... amature writers in our own social network trying our best -- with a little help from our friends -- to get better.

lets take advantage of this medium we have here... not abuse it because of EGO.

we're not making a million dollar... this isn't hollywood... time isnt money... if you're here you dont have a hot date. don't just read scripts because you want to get read... read scripts because its what you LOVE to do.

writing and reading go hand in hand here.

i can understand the "i scratch your back..." mentality i do.... but some of us take it waayy too far. writing scripts and well as READING them should be YOUR PASSION, not a fucking chore!!

you know what i mean?

  
Posted by: Andrew, March 2nd, 2012, 4:22am; Reply: 164
Oh, come on, Kev. Don't take it so seriously. You used the word clique three times, which invited the sarcasm. Clique, coterie, cadre, cabal - all describing the same thing: a group working in a small set (hence the collusion), typically for a common purpose, which you alluded to as 'shutting down the conversation' - the impact being a decrease in member retention.

You seem to be one of those blokes that can dish it out but not take it. Don't forget that I'm a Brit and we like to banter and take the piss, which is simply what I did in the last post. If you're just being passive aggressive about the last round of political debate, then just PM me and we'll have a lovely discussion that will finally resolve our differences. I'm assuming you'll judge my sarcasm better now.
Posted by: bert, March 2nd, 2012, 8:17am; Reply: 165

Quoted from Andrew
...I don't collude with him in an Allen/Newcomer clique, I can't say for sure...


Ha...I totally missed this.

Like many of the old-timers, I only check this thread periodically.

As has been stated, many of us have heard this all before -- so we just work around what is a thread essentially singing the same old gospel to the faithful.

But as has also been stated, there are always new guys and gals that feel compelled to add their own voice to the conversation -- most often inviting harsh but thoughtful criticism of their own work -- either overt or implied -- hence the continued life on this thread, which is fine, really.

So there you go.

For the record, I am my own clique.  A clique of one.  So you may not join.
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), March 2nd, 2012, 10:19am; Reply: 166
I started giggling at what Kev wrote... until I looked at it again and saw that he actually wrote the word clique.

I'm immature.  I know.


Phil
Posted by: Penoyer79, March 2nd, 2012, 10:41am; Reply: 167
it appears im not the only one on here who likes to push buttons.....


Quoted from Andrew
You seem to be one of those blokes that can dish it out but not take it.


he's not the only one...
Posted by: wonkavite (Guest), March 2nd, 2012, 10:53am; Reply: 168

Quoted from dogglebe
I started giggling at what Kev wrote... until I looked at it again and saw that he actually wrote the word clique.

I'm immature.  I know.


Phil


Yes, Phil.  Yes, you are.  And I should know.   ;D
Posted by: Andrew, March 2nd, 2012, 10:58am; Reply: 169

Quoted from Penoyer79
he's not the only one...


:o
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), March 2nd, 2012, 10:59am; Reply: 170
My mouse cliques.
Posted by: nybabz, March 2nd, 2012, 11:23am; Reply: 171
wow. some hypersenstive folks out there--cuz kids, THIS AIN'T NOTHING!! suggest another line of work/hobby. respectfully, babz
Posted by: Grandma Bear, March 2nd, 2012, 12:09pm; Reply: 172

Quoted from nybabz
wow. some hypersenstive folks out there--cuz kids, THIS AIN'T NOTHING!! suggest another line of work/hobby. respectfully, babz


Cheers to Babz!   ;)

Posted by: leitskev, March 2nd, 2012, 1:23pm; Reply: 173
Not sure who's being hypersensitive. These threads are really just a diversion for me while I take a break from work. I was irked by someone suggesting the discussion had run it's course. Sounded to me like the usual choir saying "shut up, we've heard it all before".

So choir, back to work, or whatever.  :X

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/scitech/science/030212-japan-invents-speech-jamming-gun-that-silences-people-mid-sentence
Posted by: Grandma Bear, March 2nd, 2012, 1:45pm; Reply: 174
I don't think it's wrong to bring the topic up every now and then, but when the "discussion" starts to just go around and around...

Then eventually someone says something that irritates someone else and then we have arguments and some people start cussing in every sentence.

We even had a poll about critiques/reviewing styles.

I think we pretty much all can agree that constructive criticism does not involve personal insults. That was all.  :)
Posted by: irish eyes, March 2nd, 2012, 5:17pm; Reply: 175

Quoted from Grandma Bear
I think we pretty much all can agree that constructive criticism does not involve personal insults.


I still blame the French.  :)

Mark
Posted by: leitskev, March 2nd, 2012, 7:00pm; Reply: 176
No in the history of film cast better insults than the French K-nigget in Holy Grail.
Posted by: irish eyes, March 2nd, 2012, 10:41pm; Reply: 177

Quoted from leitskev
No in the history of film cast better insults than the French K-nigget in Holy Grail.


RUN AWAY......Classic

Mark
Posted by: CoopBazinga, March 2nd, 2012, 11:28pm; Reply: 178

Quoted from irish eyes


I still blame the French.  :)

Mark


I personally blame you, Mark! ;D ;D
Posted by: nybabz, March 3rd, 2012, 12:36pm; Reply: 179

Quoted from Grandma Bear
I don't think it's wrong to bring the topic up every now and then, but when the "discussion" starts to just go around and around...

Then eventually someone says something that irritates someone else and then we have arguments and some people start cussing in every sentence.

We even had a poll about critiques/reviewing styles.

I think we pretty much all can agree that constructive criticism does not involve personal insults. That was all.  :)


word up, sista.
Posted by: nybabz, March 3rd, 2012, 12:38pm; Reply: 180

Quoted from Pale Yellow
New to the board and writing, I will concur, I just got some really good criticism. At first when I read it, I was like...I need to throw my writing right into the trash. But then I thought.....found this site, wrote my first owc in literally two hours in Panera Bread, didn't edit or even reread it, entered it into this OWC thing, and umm got a lil bit ripped to shreds. BUT then I thought to myself after reading some of the very intelligent remarks, this is GOOD not bad. I mean I love movies and I've always loved to write creatively. So, I'm not giving up yet. And want to say THANKS to those who do critique our work in here. It's really the only way to learn and now I think I will read some professional scripts and work on my skills.


this is the ONLY way to not only get better at what you do but to enjoy it, learn and pay it forward. exceptional attitude. although I don't know how in the heck you can concentrate at Panera Bread! all I think about is the stuff I can't have when I go, lol! BABZ
Posted by: Seven, June 2nd, 2012, 2:40am; Reply: 181
I think you can be brutally honest and polite at the same time. Even so, regardless of what you write, you will offend someone -- that's been my experience, and I've only commented on a few scripts. That said, if you don't like what someone says, shake it off and move on.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), March 31st, 2013, 1:37pm; Reply: 182
I'm only going to review scripts that I feel are written well. I'm not very good, or probably just too lazy to overly write in niceties. This gets me into trouble quite often with people reading a tone into my posts that I didn't put there. My responses are blunt, unbuttered.

I really don't see why I should waste my time even on a writer that needs spellcheck in the first place let alone a writer failing to use one. That being said, I wouldn't like to think I was being too blunt to a kid.

If a script is written poorly then it can be even more detrimental to the writer to lie to them and encourage them wasting their time. Why not do a Simon Cowell and simply tell people the truth? However, i have to admit that I don't have the guts for that myself. I'd rather just skip over the bad scripts... and so far, i've picked up three and haven't found one worth reviewing. I actually find that reassuring. Imagine if everybody could write well, it would be impossible to make it anywhere.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), March 31st, 2013, 2:13pm; Reply: 183
Dustin, if you choose to not comment on the "bad" scripts, you'll find you won't be commenting very much at all.  Most are pretty bad and few know how to write or spell, believe it or not.

Brutal honesty is appreciated, at least by this Kid.
Posted by: KevinLenihan, March 31st, 2013, 2:20pm; Reply: 184
Hey Dustin

My assumption is that like most new people, you are looking to share reads. You're in a great place for it. Monitor the portal, learn which members are active, then take a look at their work and leave some honest thoughts. Most people here are pretty cool and appreciate honest feedback and will reciprocate.

I will also add that asking someone to read a short is no big deal, but reading and leaving constructive notes on a feature is a big sacrifice in time and energy. If you stay active here, you will develop relationships with people that you can do that with, though it does take a little investment in time to get there.

Best of luck! I think you'll be happy you got to know the community.

Kevin
Posted by: danbotha, March 31st, 2013, 2:32pm; Reply: 185
There's nothing wrong with being blunt, Dustin. No one's asking you to be nice, we're just asking for your honesty. If people end up kicking up a big fuss because they don't like what you said, it's their problem. Life is competitive and so is screenwriting. They may as well get hammered on a friendly discussion board as opposed to getting hammered by an exec.
Posted by: khamanna, March 31st, 2013, 2:37pm; Reply: 186
I think it's okay to be on a fence with this or that critique of your work. Who wasn't.

So, if I see someone didn't take it well, I try to understand. Twice I had "Maybe you didn't like it because you're international" - a bit harsher than that but I don't remember the exact words.
So what...)) We ended up being friends.

All I'm saying is - sometimes it's okay not to take criticism well. If it doesn't turn into a habit.
Posted by: James McClung, March 31st, 2013, 2:45pm; Reply: 187
I've said before that any criticism is game so long as it's focused and backed up. I still stick by this. In fact, I think there's a place for a substantial thrashing in review form. There's a lot of complacency floating around in writing circles, which is sometimes even encouraged by people who should no better. Sometimes, it just needs to be shaken out of a writer so they can move on and get better.

As for writers, I think it's important to remember that at the end of the day, the script is yours and the choice is always yours to totally disregard any criticism that you might come across. It can be tough to figure out what needs to be disregarded. After all, you could be totally delusional. But the fact remains you're not obligated to defend your work or concede to anyone who comments on it.

That said, it's important to stay humble and open to criticism and constantly reevaluate yourself and your writing. That's really the only way to grow.
Posted by: danbotha, March 31st, 2013, 2:46pm; Reply: 188

Quoted from khamanna
All I'm saying is - sometimes it's okay not to take criticism well. If it doesn't turn into a habit.


I don't think there's a writer out there who hasn't been offended by feedback, before. We can all be a bit touchy and it's fine to voice your disagreement with a reviewer. Throwing up a big fuss and saying "it's because you're international" or my personal favourite -- "You're too young to understand" is taking things a bit too far. An opinion is an opinion... There's no use trying to sway them.
Posted by: Forgive, March 31st, 2013, 4:59pm; Reply: 189

Quoted from DustinBowcot
I'm only going to review scripts that I feel are written well.


Pity. The benefit of reading scripts that aren't written so well is that you help the guy to improve. This works well when you check scripts out and see who's active. If they are active, feeding back and don't write so well, why would you not give some if they are giving out too? I think you'll find most people feedback to active members who are spending some time and energy on other people's work. That's quid pro quo that works for me and a lot of other people here. Your chosen methods hints at elitism, which I've not really seen around these boards so much.

Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 2:54am; Reply: 190
People that do not write well are not real writers and they never will be writers. No matter how hard they try they are wasting their time. Writing well is just the beginning... after that comes the story, which for me is the most important thing. I won't read a story if the guy doesn't write well, what is the point? It becomes an English lesson rather than a discussion about the story, that's if one can even see the story amidst the errors.

Even the greatest writers need help with their stories, a fresh brain looking in, pointing out things that they themselves have missed. I'm far more inclined to help a writer that has a chance of making it than giving english lessons to writers that don't.
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 3:09am; Reply: 191

Quoted from DustinBowcot
People that do not write well are not real writers and they never will be writers. No matter how hard they try they are wasting their time. Writing well is just the beginning... after that comes the story, which for me is the most important thing. I won't read a story if the guy doesn't write well, what is the point? It becomes an English lesson rather than a discussion about the story, that's if one can even see the story amidst the errors.

Even the greatest writers need help with their stories, a fresh brain looking in, pointing out things that they themselves have missed. I'm far more inclined to help a writer that has a chance of making it than giving english lessons to writers that don't.



Actually, if someone needs an English lesson and I think they are a good storyteller then I give them the English lesson.  It's much harder to learn how to tell a story than it is to learn the mechanics of English.  
Posted by: LC, April 1st, 2013, 4:24am; Reply: 192

Quoted from DustinBowcot
People that do not write well are not real writers and they never will be writers. No matter how hard they try they are wasting their time.


Welcome to the boards Dustin.

Not wanting to be combative, (after all this is the 'constructive' thread), and obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but it is my opinion that if someone wants something badly enough and is willing to put the work in to learn the craft, this will go a long way towards them being half way decent writers. I've seen people on here improve out of sight, in a short period of time, as I'm sure a lot of us have.

So, from experience, I can't agree with you.

I do believe some people are naturally gifted and have an easier time of it than others who have to work harder at it, but imh, it's coming up with the exemplary story that's the hard part. The actual writing of that story can be learned, so I'm with Michael on that one.

Posted by: Forgive, April 1st, 2013, 5:49am; Reply: 193

Quoted from DustinBowcot
People that do not write well are not real writers


What you in part missing is the fact the screen-writing is an adapted form of writing; so someone could easily be a good writer, but not know the style required of a script.

Writing is certainly something that can be improved upon, as is story & structure, as is format.

Often I find that some people don't click on, while other do - it's difficult to tell if you don't give anyone a chance.

A lot of people here are learning the craft, so maybe you've come to the wrong place. There's lots of site out there for more practised screenwriters.

Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 9:32am; Reply: 194
Most peeps are not good writers.  In fact, most are poor writers, and most just won't ever get it.

But, you know what?  Some will.  And if you can help just 1 single, little person become a better writer, then a decent writer, and finally, a pretty good writer, you've given more than most will or can.

I've seen it first hand, numerous times, right here in SS.  It takes a certain mindset and a real desire to learn and improve, but it can happen and it does happen.  Sometimes, all it takes is some effort from all involved.

Dustin, you're not starting this journey off very well, bro.  Seriously.  I understand the elitist mindset very well, because I've struggled with it most of my life.  If you truly feel you're gifted in your writing talent and knowledge, please share a bit and pay it forward.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 9:55am; Reply: 195

Quoted from mcornetto


It's much harder to learn how to tell a story than it is to learn the mechanics of English.  


That's certainly debatable.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, April 1st, 2013, 10:00am; Reply: 196
Every now and then, someone new joins these boards and for some reason they seem to do all they can to be disliked right off the bat. Amazing.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 10:10am; Reply: 197

Quoted from LC


...but it is my opinion that if someone wants something badly enough and is willing to put the work in to learn the craft, this will go a long way towards them being half way decent writers.


Thank you for the welcome, it is appreciated. You're quite welcome to your opinion, I would never consider that to be combative.

What is the point in helping lost causes? Only 1 or 2% of screenwriters will ever get anywhere so what is the point in wasting time helping somebody who is only ever going to get to be 'half way decent'?

That's my outlook on it. If you can't spell, or write very well then I'm not going to bother reading or reviewing the script only to say how terrible it is. I'd rather read a good script and review that. Plus the time it takes to read a bad script and make corrections can be phenomenal. I'll leave the bad scripts for people that don't mind reading them. As I can see, there are plenty here already.
Posted by: bert, April 1st, 2013, 10:15am; Reply: 198

Quoted from DustinBowcot
What is the point in helping lost causes?


You know, I totally get what you are saying on one level.

But this board is international, and for many writers, English is not their first language.

Matias struggled a bit at first -- though his English was always quite good -- and he has evolved into a remarkable story-teller with representation.

Helio also springs to mind.  His English is wonky to this day, but his gift for telling a story just shines, and if you overlook his scripts, you miss some gems (and, to be fair, a few clunkers). Same goes for Michel, one of our resident Frenchmen. Both of these guys also have produced scripts to show, and I think Michel has even had stuff at Sundance.

All folks are saying, I think, is to beware writing off someone too quickly.

And welcome to the boards.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 10:40am; Reply: 199

Quoted from bert


You know, I totally get what you are saying on one level.

But this board is international, and for many writers, English is not their first language.

Matias struggled a bit at first -- though his English was always quite good -- and he has evolved into a remarkable story-teller with representation.

Helio also springs to mind.  His English is wonky to this day, but his gift for telling a story just shines, and if you overlook his scripts, you miss some gems (and, to be fair, a few clunkers). Same goes for Michel, one of our resident Frenchmen. Both of these guys also have produced scripts to show, and I think Michel has even had stuff at Sundance.

All folks are saying, I think, is to beware writing off someone too quickly.

And welcome to the boards.


Thank you. I actually have a lot of respect for anybody that can speak two languages, let alone attempting to write in their second language. Likewise anybody that is young.

My only point is that if I see a bad script, I'm not going to touch it. A few may feel that is unfair but I'm only putting into words what a lot of other people do already. I have reviewed bad scripts before, it never goes well and I always feel like an asshole afterwards. I'd rather avoid all unpleasantries. Just because I review scripts that are written well (and by that I simply mean comprehensible) doesn't mean I will like the story. i believe my efforts are better served discussing stories with people that actually have a chance (IMO) of getting made.
Posted by: danbotha, April 1st, 2013, 2:58pm; Reply: 200
When I first arrived here, I thought my writing ability needed no improvement and that I would walk right into Hollywood with a job (Arrogant, I know, I know...). Fortunately, I was put in my place by a reviewer who is now one of the guys I respect the most. Sure, he wasn't my favourite person when I first read the review, but when I looked back on those comments I realised what people here were trying to do for me.

Dustin, I see your point. You don't want to come across as a dick when reviewing a bad script. That, I can certainly understand. However, it is my firm belief that no writer starts out perfect. There's no 'naturals' in screenwriting. Becoming a good writer takes hard work and determination (not to mention patience). How do I know this?? I've been working my ass off for just over a year and I'm still not a great writer. Maybe I never will be a great writer... Oh well, that doesn't bother me.

Which brings me to another point you raised. A bare minimum of screenwriters actually make it in the industries. A lot of folks that come here are only writing because they love it. They don't give a damn about making it in the industry. If they're writing they're happy. I've met a large number of writers here who could make it in Hollywood but choose to leave that for somebody else. Why? My guess is success means nothing to them.

There's no such thing as a 'lost cause' unless the writer chooses to be a lost cause. Typically, they do this by not listening to feedback. Those are the ones who are lost causes... But it's their problem, not ours.

Dan
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 3:58pm; Reply: 201
I believe there is such a thing as a natural writer. Screenwriting is a separate skill to learn, but it is still best learned by a natural. Some guys turn wood, others turn sentences. What makes a natural a great writer though is the sum of his/her experiences and education. We can imagine as much as we want to, but we can never know for sure unless we experience it for ourselves.

At the same time there are a lot of people that could never, ever become good writers... and really and truly that is a relief. Just like you, I figured I could walk right in. Bit of a wtf moment when I realised the full scope of what I was getting into, and by golly there are even rules I HAVE TO follow. It's certainly going to take some effort to climb above the parapet, eh.
Posted by: KAlbers, April 1st, 2013, 4:38pm; Reply: 202
Dustin,

I think you will be a welcomed assets to the boards... especially with the regulars on here... some new blood in the water is what's needed to shake things up (IMO), make sure everyone is on game with their writing and not just complacent with the screenwriting dogma that is so easily dished out on here. I write this with love and care by-the-way. The scripts you seem to want to target with your insight and feedback, are probably written by those who are thick-skinned and can take the criticism, good or bad. So I think that it's totally fine to pick and choose which script you want to review and provide constructive feedback for... what I don't get is, why bother announcing to everyone that you are not going to bother giving your brilliant insight to those who have issues with spelling, grammar, etc?... You say, you don't want to come off as a dick, well... Anyway I'm sure your intention is to be honest and that's good, that's what is needed, and perhaps your skill set is more suited for those a little further up the literary chain... yet, honesty can be accompanied with tact... I see it done countless times on here, and as a "writer" this should not be a difficult thing to do. I've read the feedback you have left, and I think it's great. Sure people will get upset with negative responses to their work... it's going to happen, but it's their responsibility to deal with it and most people are responsible people, who know how to make the feedback work for them. As long as the criticism is "constructive" and meant to help, then you've done your part. Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your feedback to the various "better" written scripts on here. I think I can learn a few things from you.

Welcome to the SS :D
Best,
-Kev
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 5:46pm; Reply: 203

Quoted from DustinBowcot


That's certainly debatable.


I'm not going to debate it with you. Ask someone who has taught screenwriting which they think is harder to teach.  I think they will agree storytelling is harder to teach than English.  You either have a talent for telling a story or you don't, but pretty much anyone can learn English.    
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 5:55pm; Reply: 204
I'm not going to debate it either, but it's pretty obvious that being a good writer is not nearly as easy as most peeps think.

Being a good story teller is a matter of opinion, and based on the movies I see, which is well over 250 each year, I'd have to say the vast majority of Professional screenwriters and directors are far from god story tellers.
Posted by: LC, April 1st, 2013, 6:09pm; Reply: 205

Quoted from Dreamscale
I'd have to say the vast majority of Professional screenwriters and directors are far from god story tellers.


I'd say I'm a long way from being 'god' in my storytelling, but I'm getting there. ;D

Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 1st, 2013, 6:25pm; Reply: 206

Quoted from LC
I'd say I'm a long way from being 'god' in my storytelling, but I'm getting there. ;D


Oh My Good!!!!  Funny...damn...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Posted by: CrusaderVoice, April 1st, 2013, 10:57pm; Reply: 207
As a relatively new individual to the boards, I wanted to offer a couple of thoughts. (and for the record, I waited six months before posting things to get myself disliked most everyone here).

When I first got here, I also had the thought that I'd only want to read the best material here. I also wasn't sure what I could lend in the way of feedback because I was new to this whole world of screenwriting, not just this board. In moments when I have time to review scripts, I'll jump in on short scripts regardless of who wrote them. There's a better chance to get feedback if a person is providing it. That seems to be part of the way this community works.

Truthfully, I am a little more discriminating on feature scripts. I'll try not be now that my work schedule has lessened.

Seeing some scripts get picked apart and reading to see the specifics of what they were talking about, has helped me avoid making those same mistakes (at least most of the time).

In terms to the thick skin required to take the feedback...I can't say I'm less sensitive than anyone else. But the thing that's helped me is the attitude that, when it comes to screenwriting, EVERYONE here knows more than me. Everyone else either has experience, is good at this craft, or has studied this in an effort to make it their career. None of that describes me.

Also, if a criticism is off-base, trust the boards...someone will jump and provide an alternative view to either correct it or to post an opposing view. I've seen it happen regarding other scripts. You can also learn a lot from the discussion and debates that take place regarding some of the works posted here.
Posted by: J.S., April 1st, 2013, 11:34pm; Reply: 208

Quoted from Forgive
What you in part missing is the fact the screen-writing is an adapted form of writing; so someone could easily be a good writer, but not know the style required of a script.


Faulkner wasn't any good at it by himself. I know he wrote the screen play for "The Big Sleep" with Brackett and Furthman and I'm positive they were all about format and following the story while Faulkner was all about the style and the words. Wilder said the same about Chandler.

Not to mention Faulkner's screenplays were terrible. Is Faulkner a good writer? Obviously, he's a good writer. I love Faulkner. Everyone should love Faulkner. But he wasn't a good screenwriter. He didn't know how to take what he does over the course of some hundreds of odd pages and reduce it to a three act structure that fits into a ninety minute movie. Faulkner's not a bad writer. He's a bad screenwriter.

Sorry Dustin. Just can't agree with you on this one.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 2nd, 2013, 9:15am; Reply: 209
Why are you bringing up a dude that's been dead over 50 years?

IMO, this is far from relevant to any conversation about writing and writers.  The world and screenwriting has changed so drastically since this guy was kicking it out, I don't know what point you're trying to make.
Posted by: Felipe, April 2nd, 2013, 10:06am; Reply: 210
His point is that you can be a great writer and a bad screenwriter.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 2nd, 2013, 10:34am; Reply: 211

Quoted from Felipe
His point is that you can be a great writer and a bad screenwriter.


Hmmm...is that as in a great novelist, but a poor screenwriter, or just a great writer, period, but poor screenwriter?

He wrote, what 5 or 6 screenplays, right?  In other words, he was a paid Pro writer, so someone thought he had something to offer.
Don't get me wrong, I rag on Po writers all the time and say how shitty they are, but they're making money, and right or wrong, good or bad, they're Professionals.

IMO, this thread has little to do with Pro writers, nor should it.
Posted by: Forgive, April 2nd, 2013, 11:39am; Reply: 212
Yeah - the thread's gone off on a tangent somewhat from Dustin's coment about not wanting to review screenplays that are not 'written well' - which is a tad ambiguous in itself.

But in finishing the tangent, early screenwriters were normally just novelists who were asked to write something because they were recognised writers. Screenwriting has become adapted over time to fit the medium it's designed for.

And a great writer? No - I don't think so, just a solid command of the English language is enough to put the words down comprehensibly - story, I agree, is a bit of a different art.
Posted by: Felipe, April 2nd, 2013, 12:54pm; Reply: 213
In the end, people will read and comment on what they want to read and comment.

Though I disagree with Dustin's opinions on "lost causes," he has the right to choose what he spends his time on.

My main concern with his attitude is telling people that they have no hope of doing what they love. In reality, the only way they will have no hope in being a writer is if they listen to his opinions. Most people have little hope of being paid writers, not just based on talent, but also based on the odds being staggeringly against us...

I just don't like someone going around telling people who can and can't be a writer when writing is free and "talent" has so much to do with opinion.
Posted by: bjamin, April 2nd, 2013, 1:00pm; Reply: 214

Quoted from Felipe
In the end, people will read and comment on what they want to read and comment.

Though I disagree with Dustin's opinions on "lost causes," he has the right to choose what he spends his time on.

My main concern with his attitude is telling people taht they have no hope of doing what they love. In reality, the only way they will have no hope in being a writer is if they listen to his opinions. Most people have little hope of being paid writers, not just based on talent, but also based on the odds being staggeringly against us...

I just don't like someone going around telling people who can and can't be a writer when writing is free and "talent" has so much to do with opinion.


+1

Posted by: J.S., April 2nd, 2013, 2:14pm; Reply: 215

Quoted from Dreamscale

Hmmm...is that as in a great novelist, but a poor screenwriter, or just a great writer, period, but poor screenwriter?


As in, he received the Nobel Prize for Literature.

FYI, this is what I was responding to.


Quoted from DustinBowcot
People that do not write well are not real writers and they never will be writers. No matter how hard they try they are wasting their time.
Posted by: J.S., April 2nd, 2013, 2:38pm; Reply: 216

Quoted from Forgive

But in finishing the tangent, early screenwriters were normally just novelists who were asked to write something because they were recognised writers. Screenwriting has become adapted over time to fit the medium it's designed for.


I'm not sure what you mean about being "adapted over time". The screenplays from the Classic era look quite similar to the ones today. They wrote camera angles a bit differently, that's about the only difference I see. Maybe some of the sluglines were a tad specific for today's standards, but its practically the same format.

With respect to the first part you said, I'm not sure I entirely agree. Most earlier screenwriters were actually playwrights. That's basically what a movie was back in the day, a three act play on screen. Hence the word screen play. Matter of fact, the best came out of playwriting and were not novelists. I can't even think of one screenwriter that came out of writing novels. Okay I'll stop. I rest my case. Point's made :)


Quoted from Felipe
I just don't like someone going around telling people who can and can't be a writer when writing is free and "talent" has so much to do with opinion.


I'm getting a shirt made that reads, "Writing is free and "talent" has so much do with opinion" :)
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 2nd, 2013, 4:14pm; Reply: 217

Quoted from mcornetto


I'm not going to debate it with you. Ask someone who has taught screenwriting which they think is harder to teach.  I think they will agree storytelling is harder to teach than English.  You either have a talent for telling a story or you don't, but pretty much anyone can learn English.    


Seems to me that plenty of people try writing stories, but not many use proper English when doing so.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 2nd, 2013, 4:19pm; Reply: 218

Quoted from Felipe


My main concern with his attitude is telling people that they have no hope of doing what they love.


I haven't told anybody that... and why would you be concerned?
Posted by: Felipe, April 2nd, 2013, 4:45pm; Reply: 219
I'd be concerned because that's poisonous. That mentality breeds within the mind you feed it to. In the end, it's just a way for writers to feel superior to one another.

The main reason I like the fact that you will only review scripts you deem worthy of your knowledge and time is that you won't be putting these less experienced writers down. For that, I thank you.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 2nd, 2013, 4:56pm; Reply: 220

Quoted from Felipe
I'd be concerned because that's poisonous. That mentality breeds within the mind you feed it to. In the end, it's just a way for writers to feel superior to one another.


LOL. A large dollop of overly dramatic with a dash of neurosis... thanks for sharing.
Posted by: Felipe, April 2nd, 2013, 5:01pm; Reply: 221
I always love giving small people a reason to feel big.
Posted by: Forgive, April 2nd, 2013, 6:28pm; Reply: 222

Quoted from J.S.
I'm not sure what you mean about being "adapted over time".


Well this could be a separate thread in itself, so I'll refer you to:

http://www.screenplayology.com/content-sections/screenplay-style-use/1-1/

--debate aside, it's a fascinating insight.
Posted by: J.S., April 2nd, 2013, 7:37pm; Reply: 223

Quoted from Forgive


Well this could be a separate thread in itself, so I'll refer you to:

http://www.screenplayology.com/content-sections/screenplay-style-use/1-1/

--debate aside, it's a fascinating insight.


I thought we were already talking about the talkie pictures? Otherwise, there's not much of a difference except how camera angles were written.

EDIT: I guess there is one more difference. They split the script into sequences; (sequence "A", sequence "B", etc.) Supposedly making for an easier read. Which I agree with and kind of like actually. But that's as radical as it gets I'm afraid.
Posted by: Penoyer79, April 2nd, 2013, 10:49pm; Reply: 224

Quoted from Felipe
I'd be concerned because that's poisonous. That mentality breeds within the mind you feed it to. In the end, it's just a way for writers to feel superior to one another.

The main reason I like the fact that you will only review scripts you deem worthy of your knowledge and time is that you won't be putting these less experienced writers down. For that, I thank you.


Some people come up here and only want to read top notch scripts and are insulted when they read anything less. Then you've got the new kid who is just starting looking to get valuable feedback.

You've got guys who come up here and want to lend their expertise to every script they read.... and then you have those who think they're God's gift to writing and don't want to hear anything other than how great their script is.

thats really what this comes down to. Agendas are just going to clash.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 5:21am; Reply: 225

Quoted from Felipe
I always love giving small people a reason to feel big.


Perhaps you'd be kind enough to point to one of your reviews where you have gone through a bad script and pointed out every error in grammar.

When I go through a script I commit myself to reading it entirely and make notes throughout. Even a good script can take several hours out of my day. Since joining this site I have actually resolved to read scripts for a certain duration of my day. i don't want to do it, I'd much rather be writing my own... but I believe in putting back what i take, even giving more. However I flat out refuse to give people English lessons or even read scripts that are so wrong it would take an hour to correct the errors in grammar on the first page.

This is a screenwriting forum and people posting here could at least have the decency to have a good grasp of the English language before attempting to write in it... and I don't mean foreign speakers either. Too many seem to think screenwriting is an easy way to make money. It's not easy... it's bloody hard... and I'm only interested in the guys that I consider at least have a chance of getting somewhere. I don't see why you have an issue with what I choose to review...

Ah yes... as you stated, it is poisonous, it breeds and... is superior. LOL

Well let's see yours then.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, April 3rd, 2013, 7:29am; Reply: 226

Quoted from DustinBowcot

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to point to one of your reviews where you have gone through a bad script and pointed out every error in grammar.

Who reads a feature and comments on every typo or grammar? Most people focus on the story ans characters unless the writer is a good friend and the script is intended for a competition.

It takes me 5-6 hours to review a script, btw. Also, I'm one of those foreign people who's first language is not English. My English has improved 100% since I joined SS. I now have over 20 shorts made and 3 features. Do I want you to read my scripts? No, because you probably couldn't stand the poor English.
Posted by: Forgive, April 3rd, 2013, 9:37am; Reply: 227

Quoted from J.S.
I thought we were already talking about the talkie pictures?


I've no idea what you where talking about. I was talking about screenplays and how they are an adapted form of writing and have been adapted over time. Which they clearly have.


Quoted from DustinBowcot
However I flat out refuse to give people English lessons or even read scripts that are so wrong it would take an hour to correct the errors in grammar on the first page.

This is a screenwriting forum and people posting here could at least have the decency to have a good grasp of the English language before attempting to write


I think like a lot of people I've checked a script out and seen it's so bad I've not bothered - but more so for people who don't appear on the boards.

I'm happy to give general feedback on the first 1-10, but it's not often I'll go thorugh the full thing unless its someone I'm familiar with.

It'd be useful though, to have another guy on the boards who'll committ to reading a script back-to-back, as (me included) not everyone does that.

Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 10:10am; Reply: 228

Quoted from Forgive

I think like a lot of people I've checked a script out and seen it's so bad I've not bothered - but more so for people who don't appear on the boards.

I'm happy to give general feedback on the first 1-10, but it's not often I'll go thorugh the full thing unless its someone I'm familiar with.

It'd be useful though, to have another guy on the boards who'll committ to reading a script back-to-back, as (me included) not everyone does that.



It's certainly a commitment but one I feel I owe to the writer once I've stepped into the story. I couldn't just give a 1-10 review... to my mind that would be an insult to the writer. That's just my opinion though and I think no less of you because of what you choose to do.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 10:20am; Reply: 229
And this is a perfect example of how everyone is different and everyone brings something different to the table.

I'm the guy that used to give multiple post feedback on many scripts, just for the Hell of it.  Sometimes, I wouldn't even get a thank you. Other times, the writer would be furious for all the mistakes I brought to light.

Now, I'll open a script and if it's horrible, I'll either close it or I'll try to help by explaining some basic concepts that are lacking in the first page.  Same whether it's a short or feature.  In reality, I rarely read an entire script, unless it's from a friend who I want to help as much as possible.

Help comes in many forms and sometimes, if you can beat just 1 thing into someone's head, the help is invaluable.

So, bottom line is let each person be their own person.  Any feedback is good feedback.  Dustin has already jumped in and provided feedback on a number of scripts, which is alot more than most of the SS legion.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 10:23am; Reply: 230

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Who reads a feature and comments on every typo or grammar? Most people focus on the story ans characters unless the writer is a good friend and the script is intended for a competition.


I made no mention of typo's... although I will even point those out as it helpful to the author to know where they are.

Bad grammar takes me out of a story. You may be different and can see past it. I cannot. When I review a script I will point out everything I think is wrong about it. It takes hours... for me at least three hours per script.

I'd love it if a person gave me the same treatment. There are guys that make a living from reading scripts... even pro scripts. I think most pro's employ a reader they can trust to give their scripts the once over.

I will honestly try and read any script that interests me... but too many grammatical errors will just make me click on something else. No point reviewing 1-10 and possibly hurting the person's feelings.

I notice that I'm not the only person that feels this way... we only need to look at the replies. The decent scripts get more replies, people seem more willing to help. The bad scripts just get things said to them like... bad spelling, sort out your formatting. Some even outright insulting. The way I review a script is different... I go all in, and I simply don't have the time to do that on the bad ones.

My original statement was in regards to the OP. I seriously didn't expect anybody to get affronted by my choice of avoiding conflict. How's that for irony?
Posted by: bjamin, April 3rd, 2013, 10:37am; Reply: 231
There have only been 2 times that I can remember where I wasn't able to get through the entire script.  Both of those times I have sent the author my notes (up to my stopping point) and an explanation as to  where I stopped reading  as well as why I stopped.  I do my notes on the actual pdf itself so it is easy for me to point out any mistakes I see or issues I have or applauding elements I like  by simply highlighting the issue and right-clicking in a note.  But for me, I read scripts (even poorly-written scripts) not just so I can help the writer (or at least offer the writer my honest thoughts/feedback), but also as a learning experience for myself.  I enjoy picking up on different writing styles.  How people use certain words/adjectives differently.  Different formatting  styles.  I even pick up on some of my own mistakes while reading other's works.  Mistakes that I wouldn't have recognized or appreciated otherwise. Mistake that were never apparent to me in my own writing, or just didn't think were that big of a deal until I had to read through it on someone else's page.  A lot can be learnt from reading a great script, but I also think a lot can be learnt from reading a  poorly-crafted script as well. JMHO
Posted by: Felipe, April 3rd, 2013, 11:18am; Reply: 232

Quoted from DustinBowcot


Perhaps you'd be kind enough to point to one of your reviews where you have gone through a bad script and pointed out every error in grammar.

When I go through a script I commit myself to reading it entirely and make notes throughout. Even a good script can take several hours out of my day. Since joining this site I have actually resolved to read scripts for a certain duration of my day. i don't want to do it, I'd much rather be writing my own... but I believe in putting back what i take, even giving more. However I flat out refuse to give people English lessons or even read scripts that are so wrong it would take an hour to correct the errors in grammar on the first page.

This is a screenwriting forum and people posting here could at least have the decency to have a good grasp of the English language before attempting to write in it... and I don't mean foreign speakers either. Too many seem to think screenwriting is an easy way to make money. It's not easy... it's bloody hard... and I'm only interested in the guys that I consider at least have a chance of getting somewhere. I don't see why you have an issue with what I choose to review...

Ah yes... as you stated, it is poisonous, it breeds and... is superior. LOL

Well let's see yours then.


If you read my comments you'll see that my issue is not with what you choose to review but your general attitude toward people you do not consider to be writers. You should be selective with what you want to read. It's your time you are giving out to people, so that makes sense.

All you have to do is review those scripts. No one is going to ask you why you haven't reviewed the ones you don't think are good enough for you. Just leave it alone.

You don't have to come on here and tell us you will only be reviewing scripts you feel are worthy to be reviewed. There is a difference between being blunt and being arrogant.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 11:22am; Reply: 233
Felipe, let it go, bro.  Seriously...just let it go.

Personally, I like arrogance.  And I especially like it here at SS.  We need a little excitement.   ;D ;D ;D
Posted by: Pale Yellow, April 3rd, 2013, 11:28am; Reply: 234
Any feedback is good feedback. :) Especially when it's free. We all have a brain(even though mine is quite small) and can decide from the feedback how to make our scripts better.

If we get mad everytime we read harsh or bad feedback, people will stop giving us feedback or will tone it down so much that it doesn't help us as writers.

So if you are like me(sensitive)...go cry in your closet...then get to work! Fix your script! Write on!
Posted by: Felipe, April 3rd, 2013, 11:37am; Reply: 235

Quoted from Dreamscale
Felipe, let it go, bro.  Seriously...just let it go.

Personally, I like arrogance.  And I especially like it here at SS.  We need a little excitement.   ;D ;D ;D


If you need a little excitement, then why are you telling me to let it go? =D

I'm more excited to read a script from someone who thinks it's easier to learn good storytelling than it is to learn english.

Especially considering a little over a decade ago, I barely spoke a word of it.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 11:37am; Reply: 236

Quoted from Felipe


If you read my comments you'll see that my issue is not with what you choose to review but your general attitude toward people you do not consider to be writers. You should be selective with what you want to read. It's your time you are giving out to people, so that makes sense.

All you have to do is review those scripts. No one is going to ask you why you haven't reviewed the ones you don't think are good enough for you. Just leave it alone.

You don't have to come on here and tell us you will only be reviewing scripts you feel are worthy to be reviewed. There is a difference between being blunt and being arrogant.



So I take it that you can't provide a review of the like you are trying to force me to do.

In regards to what i have to come on here and tell you... this is a discussion thread and I shared my opinion on the OP's comments. Just like a lot of other people have. I haven't jumped on anybody else's opinion as you have with mine.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 11:43am; Reply: 237

Quoted from bjamin
A lot can be learnt from reading a great script, but I also think a lot can be learnt from reading a  poorly-crafted script as well.



Choice of words is very important... the actual choice is between a very bad script or a poorly crafted one. Great scripts are rare.

Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 11:46am; Reply: 238

Quoted from Felipe




I'm more excited to read a script from someone who thinks it's easier to learn good storytelling than it is to learn english.



I never said that. Not once. I said that it is debatable.
Posted by: Felipe, April 3rd, 2013, 11:53am; Reply: 239

Quoted from DustinBowcot

So I take it that you can't provide a review of the like you are trying to force me to do.


Point me in the direction of the post in which I tried to "force" you to review a "bad" script.

Good luck.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 12:04pm; Reply: 240

Quoted from Felipe


Point me in the direction of the post in which I tried to "force" you to review a "bad" script.

Good luck.


My original comment was that I will not review bad scripts. So if you haven't been trying to get me to change my mind on that what have you been talking about?
Posted by: Felipe, April 3rd, 2013, 12:13pm; Reply: 241
The first thing I said regarding your opinions is that you have the right to read whatever scripts you want.

What we've been talking about is your comments saying that a certain group of people aren't and will never be writers. That is what I referred to as poisonous.

People are here to learn from each other, so coming in here with the attitude taht some people are beyond help just goes against that.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 12:20pm; Reply: 242
Sorry, Felipe, but it's not that some writers are beyond help, it's more like most are beyond help.

Some can definitely learn and improve and I'm all about that, but for most, it's like trying to play on the PGA Tour with a hockey stick and a tennis ball.
Posted by: J.S., April 3rd, 2013, 12:29pm; Reply: 243

Quoted from Forgive

I was talking about screenplays and how they are an adapted form of writing and have been adapted over time.


In general, yes. I mean obviously once sound came into the picture.
Posted by: J.S., April 3rd, 2013, 12:33pm; Reply: 244

Quoted from DustinBowcot

the actual choice is between a very bad script or a poorly crafted one. Great scripts are rare.


Dustin, you seem to be talking about two things now. Maybe I got confused in the conversation earlier, but what's your definition of a bad script then? Because I thought when you were talking about grammer and formatting and such, forgive me if I've forgotten something, that to you was a bad script. But I guess I was wrong. Now you're saying something else I gather. So what is a bad script? Bad story? Bad characters? What?
Posted by: Felipe, April 3rd, 2013, 12:38pm; Reply: 245

Quoted from Dreamscale
Sorry, Felipe, but it's not that some writers are beyond help, it's more like most are beyond help.

Some can definitely learn and improve and I'm all about that, but for most, it's like trying to play on the PGA Tour with a hockey stick and a tennis ball.


Not all writers are here because they want to be professional screenwriters. Some people just like to write and improve on their writing. If you want to make comparisons between those, I'd say the ones truly beyond help are the ones with some talent who think they have a good shot at becoming paid screenwriters. No one has a good shot at becoming a paid screenwriter.

If you want to tell me that I am beyond help, fine. I can take it. There are people out there who do this for fun and when people tell them they will never be any good, it stops being fun.

Why do we have to discourage people from their hobby?
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 12:43pm; Reply: 246
Discouragement isn't the issue here.  Honesty is.  Brutal honesty.

Dustin's simply calling a spade, a spade and a few, you included, Felipe don't like that and have a problem with it.

Hobbies are great.  Peeps love playing golf, for instance, but they suck at it...and they know it!  It does not mean they no longer enjoy it because they suck.

Know what I'm saying?
Posted by: Felipe, April 3rd, 2013, 12:49pm; Reply: 247
I know what you're saying. I don't think we need to hold people's hands and not critique their scripts.

I just think you don't need to say that someone is not a writer or will never be a writer. The criticism is important if you want to improve, but the criticism should be aimed at the script, not the writer.

"This is a bad script," rather than "you are a bad writer."
Posted by: bjamin, April 3rd, 2013, 12:57pm; Reply: 248
Great scripts are all over the internet, homie. : )  So I am confused by what you mean by saying they are, "rare"  I can email you some.  Or point you in the right direction:  500 Days of Summer.  Midnight In Paris.  Inglorious Bastards.  Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.  Adaptation.  Stay.   Gary Coleman - Emmanuel Lewis Project, The.

I assume you mean finding a good script  written by an unknown writer, whom hasn't been declared as a great writer yet, is rare.  But I'd argue, you'd be surprised by how many writers (or artists in general) are overlooked and discouraged by others up until that one producer/director falls in love with their script, then all of the sudden that said writer/artist is now considered brilliant.

As for  your outlook on reviewing others' material,  I say you do you. : )
Posted by: Bogey, April 3rd, 2013, 12:58pm; Reply: 249
Dustin-
The problem with posting the attitude of labeling writers on the forum is that you are aren't just telling people that they aren't really writers, but are you also saying, in a round about way, that those same people aren't qualified to give feedback either. I don't believe that's fair, and it's beyond arrogant.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 1:29pm; Reply: 250

Quoted from Felipe

What we've been talking about is your comments saying that a certain group of people aren't and will never be writers. That is what I referred to as poisonous.


It is true that a certain amount of people that train to be doctors never will be either... same as lawyers and any other profession you care to mention. Simply because they are not, and never will be, good enough. I also haven't singled anybody out.



Quoted from Felipe

People are here to learn from each other, so coming in here with the attitude taht some people are beyond help just goes against that.


That is a normal attitude. I will help who I deem fit just like everybody else does. If I don't read your script it is for one of two reasons, the subject matter is boring or you have poor grammar.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 1:34pm; Reply: 251

Quoted from J.S.


Dustin, you seem to be talking about two things now. Maybe I got confused in the conversation earlier, but what's your definition of a bad script then? Because I thought when you were talking about grammer and formatting and such, forgive me if I've forgotten something, that to you was a bad script. But I guess I was wrong. Now you're saying something else I gather. So what is a bad script? Bad story? Bad characters? What?


It all can make a bad script... but I won't get to read any of that if the grammar is off. As I will put the script down and pick up another without even commenting on the first. A bad script is one with poor grammar first. First thing I look for... I'll even look past a logline which not many here will do. Unfortunately if the logline is bad then it is more likely that the script will be too, but I'm still prepared to look past it.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 1:36pm; Reply: 252

Quoted from Felipe

I just think you don't need to say that someone is not a writer or will never be a writer. The criticism is important if you want to improve, but the criticism should be aimed at the script, not the writer.

"This is a bad script," rather than "you are a bad writer."


My whole point is that I will not review what I consider to be bad scripts... so how am I telling anybody anything?

I'm saying that certain people that write scripts shouldn't bother. I'm not saying who they are.
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 1:46pm; Reply: 253
I think the main misunderstanding here, Dustin, is that people have perceived that you were planning on telling writers that they were "bad writers".   Whilst Dreamscale might agree with this tactic, most everyone else on the site won't.

However, after reviewing this discussion, I don't think you were saying that at all.  I think you were just explaining that you don't read scripts that you consider bad.  Fair enough, lots of people do the same and unless you are participating in an OWC -- no one will expect you to read anything you don't want to read.    
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 1:53pm; Reply: 254
Oh boy...here we go...

Michael, you're saying that I tell peeps they are bad writers?  I show examples of bad writing all the time and try to point out why it's bad and how it can be better.

In movie reviews, I say that certain writers and directors suck for sure, but that's a bit different.

Am the bad guy here...still?
Posted by: mcornetto (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 1:55pm; Reply: 255

Quoted from Dreamscale
Dustin, if you choose to not comment on the "bad" scripts, you'll find you won't be commenting very much at all.  Most are pretty bad and few know how to write or spell, believe it or not.

Brutal honesty is appreciated, at least by this Kid.


Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 2:07pm; Reply: 256

Quoted from mcornetto
I think the main misunderstanding here, Dustin, is that people have perceived that you were planning on telling writers that they were "bad writers".   Whilst Dreamscale might agree with this tactic, most everyone else on the site won't.

However, after reviewing this discussion, I don't think you were saying that at all.  I think you were just explaining that you don't read scripts that you consider bad.  Fair enough, lots of people do the same and unless you are participating in an OWC -- no one will expect you to read anything you don't want to read.    


Thank you. Glad we got that cleared up.
Posted by: Nomad, April 3rd, 2013, 2:35pm; Reply: 257
Welcome to the boards Dustin.  

I agree with your style of reviewing or, lack of reviewing, for the most part.  I don't comment on 90% of the scripts I start, mainly due to poor grammar or the inability to tell a story.  Format is low on the list of reasons I'll stop reading, as is a poor logline.

However, I have learned much from reading other people's reviews, Dreamscale's in particular.  If you have some knowledge to share, most of us will appreciate you taking the time to share it, regardless of how blunt or honest it is.

I also appreciate the work of other members like, crookedowl, who do take the time to comment on an obviously atrocious script, in hopes of helping someone to become a better writer.

Jordan
Posted by: Penoyer79, April 3rd, 2013, 2:57pm; Reply: 258
have you ever watched a conversation fall down the stairs?
Posted by: J.S., April 3rd, 2013, 4:38pm; Reply: 259
"A bad script is one with poor grammar first. First thing I look for..."

Sure, I can agree with you under the condition the grammar is treacherous bad. It would be hard to get through. But that to me seems to suggest formatting issues. Not necessarily a story issue. Because grammar is a way to put forward an idea or a story in a clean way. It bears no relation to the content or value of a story. So I think it depends. It's not very clear cut -- black and white.

But I tend to agree with what others have said. In correcting other's mistakes you prevent making them yourself. We're not perfect. None of us. So there's the occasional typo here, a grammatical mistake there, something odd over there. And again, it does depend on the severity of it. Obviously it's out of respect for getting feedback on the content of a script that a writer will proof read their work before uploading it here. But I personally would not go so far as to comment on the story as a whole because that depends on taste. And my taste is pretty acute, anyway, and I wouldn't want to say "I don't like it" because in reality it could appeal to a different audience. I think you could get that, "Well it's a nice little story" from anyone. I don't think that's what a write strives to get from others that read his or her work. I think it boils down to technical things, sometimes they're fair, sometimes not -- and they resolve themselves to personal preference, I understand.

But I mean, it's up to you what you do Dustin. Just something to think about.
Posted by: J.S., April 3rd, 2013, 4:51pm; Reply: 260
I know this is off topic, but I am reminded of a story, I think it was Billy Wilder who said it in an interview, about how the Studio Producers that read the scripts would basically comment at the bottom of each page with the WORD "Improve". Bottom of next page, "Improve". Bottom of next page, "Improve". Bottom of next page, "Improve."
Posted by: James McClung, April 3rd, 2013, 5:12pm; Reply: 261
In regards to spelling and grammar, it's obviously not the crux of what a given script amounts to and indeed, nobody's perfect. Mistakes get made. New ones come out even when old ones are being corrected. There's the mentality that if they don't get in the way of the story, the reviewer doesn't need to get worked up about it. I think this is a fair stance.

But spelling and gammer still matter. To me, it all boils down to presentation. Even if the script's not a minefield of typos and grammatical errors, they can still be off-putting if they're noticeable enough. It suggests that the writer didn't care enough about their work as a whole to really comb through it and make it look presentable and contrary-wise, if the script isn't littered with errors, it suggests that the writer did care. It's kind of the same as going to a job interview or to court. If you show up in sweatpants and a ratty t-shirt, it's going to give a bad impression right off the bat.

That said, I think it's totally someone's choice to dismiss a script based on spelling errors or frankly, anything that might rub them the wrong way. Personally, if a script's a disaster from a technical perspective, I won't touch it but otherwise, I'm pretty easygoing. But for everyone else, you're ultimately the one who's going to be taking time out of your schedule, reading and taking notes for free for the benefit of someone else. Scripts hardly ever get unfairly trashed here. For as long as I've been around, the majority have generally been very helpful and courteous so I think it's something of a waste of time to get hung up on what may or may not be someone's bad attitude in regards to reviewing scripts or writing in general.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 5:20pm; Reply: 262
OK, peeps, here's my offbeat analogy that may or may not make any sense.

Back in the day (the 80's to be exact), my sister's new boyfriend challenged me to a tennis match, knowing I played. He went on an on about how good he was and how easily he'd destroy me, no matter how good or bad I was.

I took him up on his challenge, not caring whether or not he crushed me, as I enjoyed playing and every chance I got to play against someone new, I took, as I knew I could learn in either victory or defeat.

I crushed him 6-0, 6-0, and I honestly doubt he won more than 10 or 15 points throughout the entire match.

The funny thing was, that the entire time, he continued to say, "if only my serve was on, you wouldn't stand a chance".  Hmmm...uh...yeah...right.

So, we drove home in relative silence and when we walked in to my place, my sister was waiting with wide eyes, hoping her honey beat my ass.  She asked how it went, who won, etc.  I remained quiet and said it was a good match, fun, and that I won.  This douche bag continued to say how much better he was and that next time he would destroy me.

The guy was completely clueless and for some reason I'll never understand, actually believed he was a great tennis player. I tried and tried to help him during the match, but he didn't want to hear anything about what he was doing so drastically and obviously wrong.  I never once rubbed any shit in his face or put him down, even though I could have so easily, as he was actually pissing me off with his arrogance and downright stupidity.

Morals of the story?  Everything is relative.  Don't be arrogant unless you literally know you can afford to be.  You can learn alot by failing, and you don't have to be great at something to enjoy doing it.  We should all understand our skills and our weaknesses, and when someone tries to help, there's nothing wrong with accepting it.

Peace out. Word to the mother.
Posted by: bjamin, April 3rd, 2013, 5:38pm; Reply: 263
Excerpt:

Dear Fucking Cathryn, How dare you send me this fucking piece of shit. You must be out of your fucking mind. You want to know how I feel about it? Here’s your fucking piece of shit back. Fuck you.

http://thebitterscriptreader.blogspot.com/2013/02/you-are-not-tarantino.html
Posted by: Forgive, April 3rd, 2013, 6:02pm; Reply: 264

Quoted from Dreamscale
We should all understand our skills and our weaknesses, and when someone tries to help, there's nothing wrong with accepting it.

Peace out. Word to the mother.


Welcome to the wonderful world of Christianity Jeff. Knew you'd make it one day. Wanna pray wit me sometime?

Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 3rd, 2013, 6:04pm; Reply: 265

Quoted from Forgive
Welcome to the wonderful world of Christianity Jeff. Knew you'd make it one day. Wanna pray wit me sometime?


Only if we'll be praying for me, Simon.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Posted by: CrusaderVoice, April 3rd, 2013, 6:39pm; Reply: 266
The tennis bit plays out like a scene from a good '80's movie D'scale!

Bjamin- I clicked on the link and that's a great story...and a blog that it looks like I'll need to add to my reading list!
Posted by: Stumpzian, May 31st, 2015, 9:57am; Reply: 267

For writers new to SimplyScripts  (or fairly new, like me), I recommend reading this thread. It starts in  2005 and continues on for eight years or so. It's fascinating to read about the various approaches to reviewing scripts, especially in light of comments (and arguments) in this OWC.
Henry
Posted by: wonkavite (Guest), May 31st, 2015, 10:08am; Reply: 268
Stump's right.  This is a long slog of a post at this point.  But it's still quite valid.  

--J (W)
Posted by: eldave1, May 31st, 2015, 8:49pm; Reply: 269
IMO - three simple rules:

1. Polite criticism is better than rude criticism and it generally doesn't take any more effort.  So why not be polite?

2. Rude criticism is better than no criticism. I'll take it any day.

3. Writers need to keep in mind that they are not paying for reviews - so try to appreciate that anyone bothered to provide comments (good, bad or ugly) and focus on whether or not the advice you received (rude or not) has value for your script and for your writing and move on. My advice to the other novices like me that have joined the site within the last year - forget the tone of the critique and focus on the specific objective advice given. You'll improve much faster.

The above is relatively simple stuff. What follows is a bit more complicated (or inane depending on your point of view).

From time to time there are remarks that I see that I cringe at, not because they are rude, but  rather because they reach a too broad based conclusion for the amount of material read. Admittedly, I am still a rookie at this - but I do believe there is both a Craft (format, grammar, voice, etc) and an Art (dialogue, story, character, conflict, etc) aspect to screenwriting.  If I read a few pages of a script I have no problem on commenting on the objective problems I see related to the craft (scene heading  errors, typos, etc.). I have no problem reaching a conclusion about their craftsmanship and letting them know there are things they should learn.  What I am not comfortable with (nor do I think others should be) as drawing a conclusion from those limited pages that deals with the author or script in total. It could be that there is a great story, great characters and great dialogue there that I did not bother to read.  I have no obligation to read it (it really is the writer's job to interest me to). That being said, I should not reach a conclusion related to their entire script of the level of their Art a writer possesses based on a few pages.

Now, it should be known that I am bias so therefore this opinion is as well. My bias is that I believe that the Art aspect is a far more difficult task to master than the Craft aspect of screenwriting. I have read scripts on this site and other sites that were so good I didn't notice the typos, format errors et al because I was engrossed in the story. I want to see those movies. Conversely I have read scripts that were perfectly formatted, clean and crisp that - and, while I learned a ton - I hated the script as a whole because the story, characters or dialogue sucked. I don;t want to see those movies.

A very long winded way of saying - I really don't think that being rude or polite is the most important issue. I think that would be the breadth of the conclusion one offers based on a narrow read of an author's work.

NOTE: This is a very long and rambling note. There is a reason. I am working on a feature and I have absolute f---king writer's block at the moment and am frustrated to the point if I didn't type some crap somewhere soon, I would delete every version of the script I'm working on and bury my computer in my back yard and piss all over it in case I got the urge to dig it up.  --- Whew, that felt good.

  



Posted by: wonkavite (Guest), May 31st, 2015, 9:32pm; Reply: 270

Quoted from eldave1
IMO - three simple rules:

2. Rude criticism is better than no criticism. I'll take it any day.


Well, as long as it's constructive, as well.  :)  And legitimately useful. (Which admittedly, a vast majority of SS criticism is.  In the main, we're helpful peeps!)

As for burying one's computer and p*ssing on it.  Wow, El Dave... I'm impressed.  Most I ever wanted to do was ignore a script for an hour, and browse Cracked instead...  :P
Posted by: JSimon, May 31st, 2015, 9:46pm; Reply: 271
I think if one tries to read a script with a constructive attitude the rest will fall into place. Some people look for reasons to take down a writer. Some people look for ways to help the writer improve his work. And it can be hard to tell the difference between one approach and the other sometimes...harsh criticism can feel much like an attempt to take down a writer. Hopefully at least the person reviewing knows what motivates him or her.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 2:13am; Reply: 272
In regard to this forum, I think it does very well in terms of activity. Checking out the stats on this site and they're pretty impressive. A lot of traffic passes through here. As it is content that keeps it in the search pages and corresponds directly to placement in those searches, then there can't be anything wrong with the membership either.

As writers, how many times have you had a carpenter or a bricklayer, a doorman or bartender, tell you about a great idea they have a for a story? Well, some of the time those people actually set out to write it and it all goes, unsurprisingly, wrong. Not because they need practise or constructive criticism... but because they should never have tried to do it in the first place.

I may be an ass for pointing that out, but it's also the reason there are so many screenwriters. Not to mention the ones from other countries believing screenwriting to be a meal ticket.

I've always written, for as long as I can remember. I loved the smell of books, new and old. Still do. I wrote for years and years for pleasure alone. I'm not writing for money now either, I'm writing for appreciation of my work. The biggest buzz for me comes when people like my stuff. Money comes way behind that.

I also believe that talent shines, even behind what screenwriters would term bad writing. Get a bunch of 7-year-old kids together and have them write a story, a few of them will shine way above the others. That's talent... and it's just tough for the kids that haven't got it... no doubt they would be far better off doing something else.

I'm no good with cars, or DIY... I have to get my friends to do it. I can do it, but it never goes right. I can visualise exactly what I want and how it should be done, but my hands refuse to follow instructions properly and something will always go wrong. I learned that I should stay away from DIY and get my friends to do it, or pay a professional.

Everybody gets ideas for stories, not all should attempt to write one. Harsh criticism weeds out the real writers from the fake, IMO.
Posted by: JSimon, June 1st, 2015, 7:01am; Reply: 273
I agree with everything Dustin said. But this needs to be added: all of us should be wary of dismissing another's work. We're not qualified.

Sure, there are some scripts that are hopeless. But I'm talking about the vast number of scripts and writers that have potential but need work. Most of us here are in that group. And none of us is really qualified to dismiss anyone or any work in that group.

Leaving aside the small percentage of scripts or writers that are completely hopeless, with the others we should try to take a constructive spirit to the reviewing.

Also, there is an obsession in some quarters here with the "correct" way of writing. And not just here, it exists in abundance on the fringe where people have taken courses or somehow been trained in the "rules". But this understanding of "correct" is misguided. No pro scripts are written this way. None. Zero. That includes spec scripts that get sold by unknown writers. Writers with talent. Someone will point to a poorly written pro script as proof that the pros aren't always writing the way we should. They'll say just because the pros do it doesn't make it "right". But I'm not talking about the rare cases of badly written pro scripts. I'm talking about if you read 100 pro scripts of all sorts, from specs to assigned work, you will not find any of them conforming in this rigid way. Frankly, writing in this rigid way screams amateur just as loudly as putting a draft number on the title page. And yet there are some people that will dismiss scripts because the script doesn't conform to this rigid set of rules.

And I'm not talking about breaking the "rules" because one doesn't understand them. Pro writers break them for purposeful reasons. For example, often they are trying to make the read easier or more efficient. Or they are trying to make sure certain things are clear, because lack of clarity is the biggest problem in a screenplay, and sometimes bending a rule is the best way to deal with it.

The bottom line is that people have to be careful not to dismiss scripts for foolish reasons. It's a nonconstructive approach.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 9:46am; Reply: 274
O...M...G!!!!!!

Mr. Simon sure sounds like a familiar old chap around these boards...more like a broken record, really.

He quotes me exactly, and repeats himself over and over again, trying his very best to drum "his rules" into everyone else, just like he says I try to beat my nonexistent rules into other skulls.

Just write peeps.  Write the way you see fit.  Write what works for you.  If someone comes along and opens your eyes with something you weren't aware of or didn't see, make a decision if it's for you or not.

If someone completely incorrectly tells you you've written an A+ script, and you're in shock, chances are good the idiot who said that is more clueless than you are.

If someone completely correctly tells you you wrote a piece of crap script, tells you why, and you "see it", chances are good you just hit the jackpot, because that horrible review may be the best review you ever receive, if it gets you walking down the right path.

You get me?
Posted by: JSimon, June 1st, 2015, 10:10am; Reply: 275
The right path to what? To writing "correct" scripts? Lol.

Scripts that don't sell, don't impress, don't create powerful narrative, don't become films...but they're "correct". Great! To paraphrase Bill Murray, they got that goin for them.

"Peeps", the man advising you above has NEVER found a pro script that he believes is well written. Never. He can't name a single one. Go ahead, ask him. Is that the guy you want setting the standard? Is that the guy qualified to tell you your script is crap? Up to you. The standard in any field is set by pros. By definition. But to him, ALL the pros do it wrong. Their work is not "correct". Good luck with that.
Posted by: eldave1, June 1st, 2015, 10:34am; Reply: 276

Quoted from DustinBowcot
In regard to this forum, I think it does very well in terms of activity. Checking out the stats on this site and they're pretty impressive. A lot of traffic passes through here. As it is content that keeps it in the search pages and corresponds directly to placement in those searches, then there can't be anything wrong with the membership either.

As writers, how many times have you had a carpenter or a bricklayer, a doorman or bartender, tell you about a great idea they have a for a story? Well, some of the time those people actually set out to write it and it all goes, unsurprisingly, wrong. Not because they need practise or constructive criticism... but because they should never have tried to do it in the first place.

I may be an ass for pointing that out, but it's also the reason there are so many screenwriters. Not to mention the ones from other countries believing screenwriting to be a meal ticket.

I've always written, for as long as I can remember. I loved the smell of books, new and old. Still do. I wrote for years and years for pleasure alone. I'm not writing for money now either, I'm writing for appreciation of my work. The biggest buzz for me comes when people like my stuff. Money comes way behind that.

I also believe that talent shines, even behind what screenwriters would term bad writing. Get a bunch of 7-year-old kids together and have them write a story, a few of them will shine way above the others. That's talent... and it's just tough for the kids that haven't got it... no doubt they would be far better off doing something else.

I'm no good with cars, or DIY... I have to get my friends to do it. I can do it, but it never goes right. I can visualise exactly what I want and how it should be done, but my hands refuse to follow instructions properly and something will always go wrong. I learned that I should stay away from DIY and get my friends to do it, or pay a professional.

Everybody gets ideas for stories, not all should attempt to write one. Harsh criticism weeds out the real writers from the fake, IMO.


I am kind of with you all the way until your last sentence.

My family has watched American Idol since it's inception (kind of a family thing). There are definitely contestants on that show that someone should have taken aside along time ago and said you're not a singer, never will be and need to pick a different path in life.  If this forum was the equivalent of "writing idol" - then yep, Simon Cowells are definitely needed. But in my view - it's not.

I joined the site because I enjoy writing as a hobby. I'm already retired so I have no need or hope to make money at this. I suspect that there are others with similar situations. i.e., they simply enjoy the writing experience. So I'm not sure that the objective of our criticism here should necessarily be to weed out writers. I view it as more of a sharing forum. Anyway, different strokes.

Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 10:49am; Reply: 277

Quoted from JSimon
The right path to what?


To understanding what works and what doesn't work, and more importantly, why.

If you really think it's a good idea to write, "Shit!" on an action line when a power outage conveniently hits, seconds after an inexperienced 19 year old morgue assistant gets on an elevator with the first corpse he's ever been near, to show how oh so scary the scene is, that's your choice.

You do that draw attention to this, thinking it's a good move, but in reality, you draw attention to the redonkulousness of the scene and the complete lunacy thinking that using "Shit!" like this is a good idea.

It's your choice, though, bro.  You keep writing your blind, paraplegic, virginal, whatever special, deep characters with super shoehorned in arcs, and see where it gets you.  Good luck...I think you're going to need it.

Posted by: Stumpzian, June 1st, 2015, 11:04am; Reply: 278

Quoted from Dreamscale


You keep writing your blind, paraplegic, virginal, whatever special, deep characters with super shoehorned in arcs, and see where it gets you.  Good luck...I think you're going to need it.



Whew.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 1st, 2015, 11:12am; Reply: 279
Ugh...this topic is becoming about as popular as religion and politics.  :-/

We should do a script club instead. Then we can discuss scripts and see what works and what doesn't and why.  :)
Posted by: JSimon, June 1st, 2015, 11:32am; Reply: 280
There are some new writers that think Dream has something to say. And he does. But you have to keep it in proper perspective. So just ask him to name one pro script he approves of. Just one. In the long history of film, there must be one pro script he likes, or at least thinks was well done. So ask him which one.

When he doesn't give you an answer, think very hard about that.
Posted by: DanC, June 1st, 2015, 11:56am; Reply: 281

Quoted from Grandma Bear
Ugh...this topic is becoming about as popular as religion and politics.  :-/

We should do a script club instead. Then we can discuss scripts and see what works and what doesn't and why.  :)


I'm all for that Pia.

I think we should submit risks we take and break them down.  What better way to go.  I'd even be happy to go first and let others rip my latest apart, the Tales of Horror.  I tried a lot of things and failed, and I, for one, enjoy learning how I went wrong.

Don't get me wrong, i hated getting the bad review, but, and this is a big but for me, I'd rather hear it on here from you guys where I have the opportunity to change it, as opposed to hearing that it was okay and having it tossed for those reasons.  

At least on here, you have the OPTION to listen to the advice.  If 2 or more peeps say something, I'dl listen.  At least 2 people dropped out from my story when I said "amber feels a knife enter her back."  And when I asked, I understood why.

The filmmaker can't show this.  You can't show feelings.  I understood.

Sometimes, harsh reviews can help a lot if you look at the message and ignore the "I'm out" or this is crap, like what Dustin said and gave me 1 out of 10.  Sure it hurt, but, again, I'd rather hear it then not, and then have it tossed by a pro for the reason Dustin gave it a 1.  

I "hoped" I was more along then I was.  I had a long writing background, back in the 90s, but, the world changed.  I was rusty.  

Best compliment came from Janet when she said that she felt a seasoned writer wrote it.  That was awesome.  She didn't like it, but, to me, it meant that on the road to getting better, I'm better today then I was yesterday.  Hopefully, I'll be better tomorrow then I am today.

I don't agree with Dustin in that people are fake.  I think with enough desire, anyone can write a good story.  If they are dedicated enough.  Unless they don't have the intelligence.  Don't underestimate desire.  I think I'm good enough to one day entertain people.  I know it won't be easy, but, I won't stop no matter what.  

Neither should anyone else who wants it so badly they can smell it.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 12:30pm; Reply: 282

Quoted from eldave1


I am kind of with you all the way until your last sentence.

I joined the site because I enjoy writing as a hobby. I'm already retired so I have no need or hope to make money at this. I suspect that there are others with similar situations. i.e., they simply enjoy the writing experience. So I'm not sure that the objective of our criticism here should necessarily be to weed out writers. I view it as more of a sharing forum. Anyway, different strokes.



By real writers I count people like you too.... although I suspect you're after a little more than doing this as a hobby when you enter competitions. I too write as a hobby, but I do want more from it than that. If I didn't then I wouldn't be here. Even if I'm wrong about you though and this is solely a hobby then we are still on the same page as I count you as a real writer. Real writers are people that will write anyway... no matter what I or anyone else says, we know we are writers and nobody can tell us different.

All the bad reviews in the world wouldn't stop us. That's what I mean by my last sentence. Real writers can't be put off by bad critiques, it only makes us stronger.
Posted by: DanC, June 1st, 2015, 12:48pm; Reply: 283

Quoted from DustinBowcot


By real writers I count people like you too.... although I suspect you're after a little more than doing this as a hobby when you enter competitions. I too write as a hobby, but I do want more from it than that. If I didn't then I wouldn't be here. Even if I'm wrong about you though and this is solely a hobby then we are still on the same page as I count you as a real writer. Real writers are people that will write anyway... no matter what I or anyone else says, we know we are writers and nobody can tell us different.

All the bad reviews in the world wouldn't stop us. That's what I mean by my last sentence. Real writers can't be put off by bad critiques, it only makes us stronger.


I'd agree with that.  The negative reviews, yours included only makes me want to try harder to prove you wrong.  Though, it does take a few days to overcome the negativity.  But, that's the nature of the beast, isn't it?
Posted by: eldave1, June 1st, 2015, 1:03pm; Reply: 284

Quoted from DustinBowcot


By real writers I count people like you too.... although I suspect you're after a little more than doing this as a hobby when you enter competitions. I too write as a hobby, but I do want more from it than that. If I didn't then I wouldn't be here. Even if I'm wrong about you though and this is solely a hobby then we are still on the same page as I count you as a real writer. Real writers are people that will write anyway... no matter what I or anyone else says, we know we are writers and nobody can tell us different.

All the bad reviews in the world wouldn't stop us. That's what I mean by my last sentence. Real writers can't be put off by bad critiques, it only makes us stronger.


Hmmm. The line that you don't see that I just deleted was - "No, it's just a hobby because...."

Then your comment about the competitions made me think (I fucking hate when that happens).  

Hmmm, again.

At age 20, I wanted to write (sports Journalist of all things). Instead, I got married, had two children by age 23 and spent the next 35 years as a government employee. Didn't write anything other than reports and presentations on subjects that bored me to tears.

So after retirement, I started writing and have labeled it a hobby. Your comment gave me pause. No, I wouldn't enter competitions or engage here if it were merely a hobby.

Hmmm again. I think I'm trying to recapture lost time or maybe through some success at it demonstrating that I could have been a writer instead of a bureaucrat. And now that I think about it, what end would that serve?

Hmmm.

Okay - I think I'm going to open a thread one day about 'Why One Writes? - just not today. I'm still hmmmming.
Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, June 1st, 2015, 1:23pm; Reply: 285
I have just one thing to say:


All the time that writers spend trying to perfect their technical style would be, in my humble opinion, better spent in coming up with fresh CONCEPTS.


99.9% of scripts written by pre-pros are dead before the pen even touches the page, the basic premise/concept simply isn't strong enough.
Posted by: DanC, June 1st, 2015, 1:44pm; Reply: 286

Quoted from eldave1


Hmmm. The line that you don't see that I just deleted was - "No, it's just a hobby because...."

Then your comment about the competitions made me think (I fucking hate when that happens).  

Hmmm, again.

At age 20, I wanted to write (sports Journalist of all things). Instead, I got married, had two children by age 23 and spent the next 35 years as a government employee. Didn't write anything other than reports and presentations on subjects that bored me to tears.

So after retirement, I started writing and have labeled it a hobby. Your comment gave me pause. No, I wouldn't enter competitions or engage here if it were merely a hobby.

Hmmm again. I think I'm trying to recapture lost time or maybe through some success at it demonstrating that I could have been a writer instead of a bureaucrat. And now that I think about it, what end would that serve?

Hmmm.

Okay - I think I'm going to open a thread one day about 'Why One Writes? - just not today. I'm still hmmmming.


Eldave1
I was gonna write something in a different post, but, I will respond here.  I hope you don't stop writing and bury your story (u had said that).  Writers' block does suck.  Sometimes, taking a few days, or even weeks away does wonders.

Or use this site and post the issue, and perhaps one of the peeps on here might offer you a way out of the writers' block.  One thing this site seems to have a lot of, personality.  All different types with backgrounds, specialists etc.  So, instead of getting frustrated, I'd write a post about it.

I'm not as old as you, but, I turn 50 this year (actually, my spine is older then u as it turns 150, but, I digress) and I'm just getting back into writing.  I'm getting into the swing of it, and i won't lie, it's been hard.  But, after a crazy OWC, I feel a bit better.  I got some good feedback and as I work on the 250 script and a few other stories, including a few shorts, I am hopeful that I can make them better then they were.  

So, keep plugging away and ask us for advice or help.  I know I'm always willing to help out if I can.  No harm in asking, right?

Hope that helps.
Dan
Posted by: DanC, June 1st, 2015, 1:45pm; Reply: 287

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films
I have just one thing to say:


All the time that writers spend trying to perfect their technical style would be, in my humble opinion, better spent in coming up with fresh CONCEPTS.


99.9% of scripts written by pre-pros are dead before the pen even touches the page, the basic premise/concept simply isn't strong enough.


Hasn't every concept been done a lot?  So, what is original anymore?
Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 1st, 2015, 1:53pm; Reply: 288

Quoted from DanC


Hasn't every concept been done a lot?  So, what is original anymore?

Sharknado!!!!!!!!!!!!  :P

Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 1:55pm; Reply: 289
It took me a while to figure out what I wanted from taking my writing public. At first I thought it might be money or fame, but it isn't any of those things. It really is appreciation. There's nothing like the high of knowing somebody has enjoyed your story. Just like there's nothing like the low when somebody doesn't.

Imagine the high of millions liking your story, all at once... across the world. That's a high I'd like to feel, that's why I'm here.
Posted by: DanC, June 1st, 2015, 2:12pm; Reply: 290

Quoted from DustinBowcot
It took me a while to figure out what I wanted from taking my writing public. At first I thought it might be money or fame, but it isn't any of those things. It really is appreciation. There's nothing like the high of knowing somebody has enjoyed your story. Just like there's nothing like the low when somebody doesn't.

Imagine the high of millions liking your story, all at once... across the world. That's a high I'd like to feel, that's why I'm here.


Dustin, we have that in common.  The money and fame come with that.

The highlight of my life.  I write, directed, produced and did everything on my thesis movie called Who is Angela (I'm sure it's horrific by today's standards) done in 92.

It was shown on local access and I got a few letters in the mail from people who had written the station (no internet back then, imagine, SNAIL MAIL) and said how much my movie touched their lives.  It was awesome.  I still have those letters.

I hope I can do that again someday.
Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, June 1st, 2015, 2:18pm; Reply: 291
Not so much original, chief...though fresh takes and angles on the old favourites are always welcome.

I just mean interesting, more high concept, bigger in scope, more focussed, more...something I don't even really know how to define. Most pro-scripts simply have a more enticing premise/concept from the word go than the vast majority of pre-pro scripts.

Just an example so you can try and understand better what I mean:

The Purge.

A film I enjoyed, and many thought was poor/mediocre. That's immaterial here.

The Purge has a premise that, in my honest opinion, is better than any pre-pro, genre script I've ever seen. On here, Talentville, Inktip, Stage 32, Zoetrope, in all the scripts I've been sent over the years in hard copy or through email. Almost none come even close.

The basic concept of "What if we lived in a world where there were no laws for one day each year".

Is better than anything any pre-pro here or elsewhere has thus far come up with (that I've seen, of course...but I've seen a lot) in my humble opinion.

The point is that I've seen arguments about rules and technicalities for ten years, but the truth is most of us are not even getting to rung one on the ladder...getting a marketable, grab your attention concept.

Without that it's all a waste of time anyway.

Just my two cents, as you lot over the pond say.



Posted by: JSimon, June 1st, 2015, 2:47pm; Reply: 292
There's no question that concept is king. But it's hard to come up with that concept that people will find to be exceptional. Many writers who come up with one are never struck by lightning again.

Arguing about rules is a waste of time.

Discussing what works best for writing techniques, however. is very worthwhile. Again, by that I mean what conveys the story in the best possible way...not what conforms to rules in the best possible way.

I recently helped someone with a short script that was being filmed. It was a simple story and we wrote a simple shooting script where the shots were all perfectly clear. And yet the camera crew and the co-director kept making mistakes because they kept going off script with what they thought were good ideas. The reason they kept doing so was because the story was not clear enough to them. Clarity is always a giant issue, and most people are very poor readers, so what WE think is clear is seldom clear enough.

I've seen writers perform mental gymnastics in order to try to satisfy two often conflicting needs: clarity and format. They do crazy and awkward things that are tedious to read and often not as clear as they should be...just to stay within the "rules"!!!

Is that logical?

I personally am always interested in improving my work. Any insight I get from a reader is extremely valuable. In fact, in my OWC script there was one important part that I was afraid some readers would miss because all readers are prone to skimming. I know I do. So I considered ways to draw attention to that one line, which though perfectly clear, might easily be skimmed. In the end I just left it as is. And at least one reader mentioned missing it at first and having to read back, just as I had feared.

This is the main reason writers use asides: clarity. To make sure the reader is kept on track and that everything is understood.

Of course the main thing to try to learn when it comes to executing story is the emotional engagement/reaction of the audience. What works and why. If you do come into a very good concept you'll want to be able to execute the story. If the concept is can't miss and worth a million bucks, then someone will buy your story but then that's the end of your involvement. But if you've got a good concept and you've executed the story well then you become a writer that could be hired for assignment. The last work I read by Rick is pretty darn close to being able to do that!



Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 3:08pm; Reply: 293
Rick, you bring up an age old issue, but it's actually impossible to define. It's also something you bring up time and time again, much as the things I bring up over and over, and much as Mr. Simon does as well, through different names over many years.

You now state that The Purge is the very best "Script", or actually "concept" is what you really mean, that you've ever seen, be it from a Pro or an amateur.  OK, that's cool.  And I even tend to agree to some degree, that the concept of The Purge is very good.  I even thought it was a pretty damn good "little" movie, but it cuold also have been much more, if handled differently.

It was made on a very deceiving budget of $3 Million, and went on to gross just under #90 Million at the WWBO.  Many, many more millions were made after the fact, as well.  I say deceiving, because the actors worked for scale and took backend points, which proved to be a very smart move for all invovled.

Shockingly, the movie has a less than luke-warm reception on Rotten Tomatoes of only 38%, and if you look over the feedback here on SS, you'll see again how little support the film received.

What's my point?  My point is that no single person can gauge what an incredible idea/concept is, as everyone has their own opinions/likes/dislikes/etc.

But, when you master how to write a script, few will argue your talents and skills.

Whatever it is you decide to write about will be viewed as everything is...hit and miss, depending on the reader/viewer.

Why not kjust learn how to write and hope you hit on a concept that works for most, or at least a few that matter?

Finally, as I've said over and voer and will say again here...look at the movies we're served up year in and year out.  Look at both teh big budget theatrical releases as well as the no to low DTV dreck.  You realy think the movies based on original screenplays are all that impressive?  Impressive at all?

It's obvious what sells, and a very small % is based on original screnplays from original concepts, where that actual concept is what sells the film.  Very few and extremely far between.  
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 3:11pm; Reply: 294
"Mr. Simon", your first paragragh is spot on and I agree 100%, as noted in my above reply to Rick.

But from there on, once again, it's you throwing out all sorts of rants about rules.

If you so despise rules, stop talking about them.  Seriously, man.  Look at your posts how many times you use the word "rules".  Unreal...

You get me?
Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, June 1st, 2015, 3:21pm; Reply: 295
I didn't say it was the best script, or even, premise ever. Just that it's better than any pre-pro concept I've seen.

And it only cost $3M as you say. That is entry level, essentially.

The point is simply that, as my other thread on here today shows, there aren't people desperately trying to give people opportunities...they give them to people they know, trust, drink with or give birth to.

The only way you;re getting in the door is with a concept that's kick in the balls and punch in the tits good and gets people talking.

I'm not saying the quality of the writing isn't important, but that aspect can be fixed later. The premise you're stuck with.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 3:40pm; Reply: 296
OK, but Rick, James DeMonaco has been a Pro Writer for 20 years.  Whether or not this concept/script he came up with is better than Pre-Pro Writers or other Pro Writers means absolutely nothing, doesn't it?

Once a "screenwriter" sells a script, he or she is a Pro Writer.  It doesn't mean that he or she is now a better writer, it simply means they sold a script, and once that happens on a mid or big level, doors open up. Hell, when a writer sells a small school script, certain doors open that were closed before.  Right?

I would imagine every Pro Writer continues to try to come up with the next big/great concept, but in reality, very, very few do...just like very, very few amateur writers do, as well.

Does that make sense?
Posted by: stevie, June 1st, 2015, 4:19pm; Reply: 297
Agree with Rick about 'The Purge'. Obviously I haven't seen it but I recall reading about the concept and thinking how cool is that. Then being disappointed by reviews from you guys that had seen it.

I recently read the novelisation of Interstellar just for the hell of it. Your reviews of the film were mixed so I wanted to see how it went wrong. Great story and premise but over halfway into the book it becomes tedious and boring. The twist and explanation are pretty average. I was thinking ' how could this Nolan guy bugger up this'? But it was trying to hard to be 2001.

A couple of years back I started a script about fans travelling back in time to stop Marilyn Monroe's murder. Cool concept right? I'm a huge fan of hers so looking good. But it became a real pain and chore to write and it lies on my computer half done. I will get back to it at some stage after I approach it from a new angle.

Anyway just throwing in my two bobs worth. Lol
Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, June 1st, 2015, 4:37pm; Reply: 298
@Jeff,

To your first point...I think it does mean something. He is the direct competition. He's been in and around Hollywood for twenty years, and is clearly still relevant now...indeed he appears to be on the rise. If anyone here wants to be pro, he's the kind of person they have to replace and outgun. And he has the advantage of 20 years of friends who are letting him direct a movie (Purge 3).

If you are writing to have stuff made at a professional level, then his level is a decent benchmark...that $3M. That's low budget, SAG level pay.

To get in we're going to have to do better than him. Not even equal..because he's already there surrounded by mates.

So until we start regularly churning out top level concepts, we're fucked. To put it bluntly. :)

Being Pro doesn't automatically make you better than a non-pro, but the reason people become pros is by being better than amateurs.

In the same way professional footballers become pros because they are the best of the amateurs...although the waters are definitely slightly muddier because merit in writing is more subjective than in the meritocracy that is sport.


Posted by: JSimon, June 1st, 2015, 4:56pm; Reply: 299
I didn't care for the concept behind the purge when I first heard it discussed, I believe on Scriptshadow. But the proof is certainly in the pudding, so I was wrong.

I watched the Rodriquez interview with Taranino recently. The original studio producer of Pulp Fiction backed out and even QT was worried he had screwed up the whole story.

Great concepts are not only hard to come by, they are not always recognized for their value at first.

Also, we it's not talked about much here, but TV writing is the biggest opportunity now. Netflix aims to release a new series every two weeks, and HBO is looking to buy 150 specs a year! Not to mention that all kinds of channels are producing their own stuff. It's a huge opportunity. Not just to sell concepts, but to get work as a writer. Learning how to do dialogue and how to work with narrative concepts is critical.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 5:45pm; Reply: 300
OK, Rick, but I think it's pretty obvious who our competition is.  The Pros do have the advantage, but all it takes is a good script and a little...or alot of luck, and BOOM...a new Pro is born.   ;D ;D ;D
Posted by: PrussianMosby, June 1st, 2015, 6:53pm; Reply: 301
Interesting discussion. I completely agree with what Rick says about concept. It's also important to show a sense of marketability, which must be a strong skill in the view of a pure seller aka production company.

If you have a deal, or not, with serving a great concept, THEY'll articulate where THEY see that concept exactly, and also what kind of story THEY could imagine to build up on referring to the material one offered. That's not purely negative. It's when teamwork begins, and also the other side's interests of course. If you fullfill their requirements to write that script and you convinced them to work together, soon the original execution of our draft says Hello to so many departments and a whole script development team. A final draft becomes a first draft again with giving it to the industry hands.

So, concept is the nearest card to realization we have.

I'd only combine concept with one single point I see equally important: Contact.


When it comes to the discussion about audience and quality:

imo There's no need, and with that, there's no want to execute those films in a different way.

I mean, if you'd sell those movies different than they do: Would it lead to a crowd of 30-70 years old academics also wanting to watch the Hunger Games, Purge or those Vampire rom-com movies?

Just imagine the possibility they actually didn't want to write/execute it better to not build controversy within their original audience.

Guys who don't love cars won't watch The Fast and the Furious.
Guys who like cars don't wanta smart dragging back-story in The Fast and the Furious.

It's rational.

IMO that's why so many writers have to go with so many plot holes and other deficits to serve their marketplace. They simply have to meet lots and lots of straight requirements given to them. And we disrespect the pros for doing so. Maybe they put it together better than we perceive.
Posted by: TonyDionisio, June 1st, 2015, 7:49pm; Reply: 302

Quoted from Heretic
I've got some constructive criticism.

More and more often, a new writer pops up (usually seeming young and inexperienced) with an idea, often laid out complete with grammatical and spelling errors and huge plot holes.  In seconds, they are picked apart in every possible way, and when they respond (usually angrily and often immaturely), they are told to grow up and get used to criticism.  

Well.  Constructive criticism it may be, but having five experienced and capable writers rip you to pieces isn't a pleasant experience for everyone.  

But it's an experience that everyone needs to have, you argue.  To better themselves.  And I agree completely.  You've gotta learn to work throught that kind of thing, to better yourself with criticism.  But it doesn't have to be on the internet when you're fifteen.  They're on the internet because they're not ready to get ripped apart by producers.  They're looking for a chance to nurture and expand their craft, but what they're getting is a bunch of guys saying "Well, I read this as a producer would..." and ripping them apart.

Give these guys a chance.  You know, a lot of the time, when these guys post (I'm sure we know the sorts I'm referring to), I have to suck back an angry retort, because what they are doing and saying often seems immature and downright stupid.  But suck it back I do, and that's the important part.  Silence speaks volumes, and if nobody replies to people they don't like, I really think everything would go better.

I think it's very easy for writers to get scared off of this site.  A young writer who posts his first script and has it ripped to shreds, who is thereafter informed that this is what it's gonna be like for a long time, may not really have much interest in continuing.  Without this experience, however, and even with some positive ones, I think that we could end up with some more valuable members of this board.

That's all I can think of.  I hope I've communicated my point clearly.  I can offer some supporting evidence in the form of script links if anyone needs it.  


I disagree with everything except the respect part. If you take the training wheels off your bike and ride before you are ready, is it the concretes fault you smashed your elbow? No. Is it gravity's fault? No.

When I make mistakes and someone points them out, I feel bad, but it wears off. I take it and adjust. If you rage on me cause I make mistakes then that is on you, and only you. If your criticsm is wrongly directed then you look like the ass. Sorry, pal.

You want coddling, go to your mommy and show her your work. I'm sure she will love it. I got no problem with driving away the illiterate until they are ready to shine. Just as others would have no problem driving me away.

That's just the way it is in life, deal with it. You aren't special cause you are born special. You are special because of what you do/learn to do, and how that influences others. Period. Your special passion will influence others, not your mediocre attempts.

Peace.

Posted by: SteveDiablo, June 1st, 2015, 9:43pm; Reply: 303
Writers shouldn't write to appease other writers, so if you can't take a bit of criticism from fellow scribes then you probably shouldn't be sending it here in the first place. Just send it to that fairy-God-Producer in the sky.

You can learn from mistakes, you can't really learn from praise, and sometimes you need someone to tell you what's going wrong. It's their perspective, of course you need to keep that in mind, but it can only be for your benefit if someone points out a problem.

Style, poise and all that is subjective; but it's gotta be beneficial to hear others views. You don't need to change style to please other writers, but it might be interesting to learn why it's annoying,.

Perhaps the problem for some is how the criticism is delivered, there might be a snarky comment attached which might piss people off, but you've got to become more thick skinned.

I'm a newbie on here, and my reviews so far are awful, very short and just say that I left after X amount of pages. I say this because if I watch a film and it's not my cup of tea, I'm turning the channel. Why is it any different to scripts?
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 9:56pm; Reply: 304

Quoted from SteveDiablo
I'm a newbie on here, and my reviews so far are awful, very short and just say that I left after X amount of pages. I say this because if I watch a film and it's not my cup of tea, I'm turning the channel. Why is it any different to scripts?


Well put...exactly.  I refer to it as sitting down at a buffet...if you don't like what you got on your first trip, leave the plate and go back for new stuff...you'll probably find something you like at some point.

Welcome aboard, Steve.

Posted by: bert, June 1st, 2015, 10:06pm; Reply: 305
For all the chatter on here, the Bottom Line is really quite simple.

This is a message board, and a free one at that.  It runs on people.

That's the real currency here.  That's what keeps the engine going.

Continue to chase off new writers with purposefully dickish comments, and eventually, the board withers away.

If you find this board useful -- and want it to thrive -- don't be a dick.

Help to build it up and everybody wins.
Posted by: SteveDiablo, June 1st, 2015, 10:21pm; Reply: 306
But build it up on what?

False hope?

I don't think anyone wants and deserves that. You can't tell some wannabee he's the next Steven Speilberg  just to keep people interested in the forum...

That's more cruel than any negative criticism could ever be.
That's cockteasing.




Posted by: SteveDiablo, June 1st, 2015, 10:23pm; Reply: 307

Quoted from Dreamscale


Well put...exactly.  I refer to it as sitting down at a buffet...if you don't like what you got on your first trip, leave the plate and go back for new stuff...you'll probably find something you like at some point.

Welcome aboard, Steve.



Thanks Dreamscale,

I'm not about putting people down, but I'm trying to be realistic.

If my scripts don't work, I want to know why. There's a problem, and some people on here are happy to help point them out. Others just gloss over it. Now what is going to be more helpful in a rewrite?
Posted by: LC, June 1st, 2015, 10:35pm; Reply: 308

Quoted from bert
For all the chatter on here, the Bottom Line is really quite simple.

This is a message board, and a free one at that.  It runs on people.

That's the real currency here.  That's what keeps the engine going.

Continue to chase off new writers with purposefully dickish comments, and eventually, the board withers away.

If you find this board useful -- and want it to thrive -- don't be a dick.

Help to build it up and everybody wins.


Exactamundo!

If you just want to show how clever you are you can do that with your mates, or even your Mum and Dad - they're always a captive audience, least mine are.  ;)
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, June 1st, 2015, 10:43pm; Reply: 309
Good post, Bert!

No one is suggesting anyone should be given false hope. All that's being said is don't be a jerk about it. There is no correlation whatsoever between harshness and honesty, so all this nonsense harsh critics like to give about “just being honest” is a load of bullshit. I give honest and constructive criticism and I'm the sweetest person here. Just ask anyone. ;D
Posted by: SteveDiablo, June 1st, 2015, 10:52pm; Reply: 310
That's fine.

I'm just saying that I struggled to read some of the OWCs and wanted to give them constructive criticism... but then realized, well, if they're not good then they are not good.

Why am I looking to gloss my comments and pretend to be a nice guy.

I have to say what I think, that's the whole point of this forum.

I don't need to be told what to think what to say...

I don't like hurting people's feelings or emotions, and will always avoid that, but if I read something that's up for reading I think it's only fair I say what I truly think. Why lie?
Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 1st, 2015, 10:52pm; Reply: 311
Actually Breanne, I often mention you when this topic comes up because in my earlier days of writing, you were really really helpful to me. You offered explanations to grammar and word usage that helped me learn a LOT. I still have a long way to go as far as the English language goes, but back then when you took your time to explain to me helped me more than you ever know. Also, come to think about it, back then, no one was rude about their comments. People often didn't like something, but I don't remember any rudeness that drove people away. Maybe my memory is bad? I'd like to think not.  :)
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 1st, 2015, 10:54pm; Reply: 312

Quoted from Breanne Mattson
Good post, Bert!

No one is suggesting anyone should be given false hope. All that's being said is don't be a jerk about it. There is no correlation whatsoever between harshness and honesty, so all this nonsense harsh critics like to give about “just being honest” is a load of bullshit. I give honest and constructive criticism and I'm the sweetest person here. Just ask anyone. ;D


Interesting, Miss Breanne.  Haven't heard much feedback from you in quite awhile.  Welcome to the jungle.

Be honest, peeps.  Don't be like Chris Bodily or whatever his name is where every scriot gets an A, A-, or something very close.  Really?  How in the world is that going to help someone?

Keep it real...

Posted by: SteveDiablo, June 1st, 2015, 11:01pm; Reply: 313
I'm never going to insult someone, I just would prefer to say what I feel about what I read.

It's called honesty.


Posted by: PrussianMosby, June 1st, 2015, 11:04pm; Reply: 314
It's easy to talk about when you've been through all of that for some years. And most of us are.

That society changes has to be recognized. I think as a writer, we'd show sensibility toward others' feelings while talking truth same time.

On the other hand we shouldn't talk irresponsible. I don't want to dramatize it; still, writing is the most dangerous profession on earth. Biggest risks, no paid education, nothing. Highly time intensive. Years, decades of unpaid work. Bad Reputation within society. High risk of getting drug addictive because of not getting through themes we handle, injustice, truth, reflecting life. One of the highest suicide rates- That's us, we, our community. Just listen to De Niro at the Oscars about screenwriting. It's truth.
Posted by: Breanne Mattson, June 1st, 2015, 11:08pm; Reply: 315

Quoted from Grandma Bear
Actually Breanne, I often mention you when this topic comes up because in my earlier days of writing, you were really really helpful to me. You offered explanations to grammar and word usage that helped me learn a LOT. I still have a long way to go as far as the English language goes, but back then when you took your time to explain to me helped me more than you ever know. Also, come to think about it, back then, no one was rude about their comments. People often didn't like something, but I don't remember any rudeness that drove people away. Maybe my memory is bad? I'd like to think not.  :)


Wow. I'm touched. Thanks for telling me that. I've learned a lot from you too. :)


Quoted from SteveDiablo
I'm never going to insult someone, I just would prefer to say what I feel about what I read.

It's called honesty.


Great. But honesty has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you're harsh. There's no connection between the two.
Posted by: SteveDiablo, June 1st, 2015, 11:16pm; Reply: 316
So polite harshness?

:)

I will never insult a writer, or their writing.
I will say what I feel about what they wrote.

I can't be all kittens and cuddles.

I'm me, and I will act accordingly. I'm not a bad guy, but I won't be told what to write, how to write and certainly not how to feel.

If, (doubtful now, lol), I finish these OWC's, I'm gonna stay true to myself and just write how I feel about them.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 2:24am; Reply: 317

Quoted from bert
For all the chatter on here, the Bottom Line is really quite simple.

This is a message board, and a free one at that.  It runs on people.

That's the real currency here.  That's what keeps the engine going.

Continue to chase off new writers with purposefully dickish comments, and eventually, the board withers away.

If you find this board useful -- and want it to thrive -- don't be a dick.

Help to build it up and everybody wins.


What you say sounds perfectly logical. Yet when we look back at all the writers that are still here, I think we all value the negative critiques the most. Those are what we learn from.

I agree there's no need to be a dick, but sometimes we can be dicks without meaning to be. It happens to me all the time. Maybe because I don't use smilie faces or XXX, or write peace at the end of my posts.

I think any type of negativity toward a script can be classed by some people as being a dick. Like I said, i prefer to just say what I have to say without worrying about adding something positive to make the recipient feel better.

I have actually gone in an edited my posts before because I have pointed out everything i see wrong without throwing in some niceties. I honestly believe that by telling the truth I am doing the best thing for that person. To give them my honest reactions.


So, what counts exactly as being a dick? I've been called a dick plenty of times for what I see as providing help. I can be a dick though too, I know that.
Posted by: rendevous, June 2nd, 2015, 5:39am; Reply: 318

Quoted from DustinBowcot
So, what counts exactly as being a dick? I've been called a dick plenty of times for what I see as providing help. I can be a dick though too, I know that.


Me too. Sometimes it's amongst the nicer names being thrown at me.

I like to be silly. But I don't think that's what was meant. I certainly hope not. That'd mean half my act out the window. With a large part of the remainder as well.

I think the way Bertie means it is to just be nasty for the sake of it. Wholly negative reviews for new writers are not very helpful. I'm not saying you do that. I don't think you do, not lately as far as I know.

I think it's fair enough not to like something and to say so, but it's dickish not to point out what was good about it. And there has to be something good about it. It's important to let the writer know what worked, as well as what didn't.

I still see lots of reviews that are wholly negative. Even after Don pointed out a lot of the writers would be new. I probably did the odd one myself, because I was tired. I think some do it as it gives them a buzz. They really should try Twitter.

R
Posted by: Stumpzian, June 2nd, 2015, 7:01am; Reply: 319

Quoted from rendevous


I like to be silly. But I don't think that's what was meant. I certainly hope not. That'd mean half my act out the window.


You ought to take your act on the road. Or send a tape to the Wodehouse Variety Hour.


Quoted from rendevous


I think some do it as it gives them a buzz. They really should try Twitter.



I never thought of this explanation. In some case, I see it as unconscious insecurity.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 2nd, 2015, 7:40am; Reply: 320
Not to throw more gasoline on the fire, but I read this at ScriptShadow this morning where Carson was reviewing San Andreas.

"What I learned: When you’re writing an action movie (or really any “genre” type movie), don’t worry about being too “proper” with your prose. The read is supposed to be easy and light, so your prose should reflect that. I loved the way our resident seismologist’s office was described when we first meet him: “Roger’s sitting behind a desk. Tech shit and books everywhere.” Is this going to fly in a Harvard English Literature class? No. But all that matters in a script is that it tells me what I’m looking at. And I know exactly what this room looks like from this sentence."

Back as you were.  ;)
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 8:04am; Reply: 321
There's no obvious way to describe the difference between being a dick in a review and being harsh and honest. The difference is really in the attitude of the reviewer and we can usually kind of tell the difference. There are times when the reviewer sets out with the goal of attacking the script. He's not looking for flaws in order to help the writer, he's looking for excuses to attack the work because it gives him pleasure for some reason to do so. Why would anyone enjoy doing that? Who knows, perhaps frustration. Some writers can't raise their own work so they take great satisfaction in taking someone else down. While it's not always easy to tell the difference between a reviewer being harsh and a reviewer looking for excuses to take someone down, veteran writers and intelligent people know the difference often simply based on the criticisms. If those criticisms are silly and meaningless it shows the reviewer was reaching, that he came into it with a nonconstructive attitude. For new writers, that can be unnecessarily crushing. And for veteran writers it can be annoying, and annoyance can drive traffic away from the site too.

Intelligent reviews are useful to veteran writers and make them more likely to participate. Veteran writers want to improve their craft and they want to understand what works better in story creation. Useful reviews, even of other people's work, are worth their weight in gold. Other types of reviews just lead veteran writers to leave the discussion behind.
Posted by: rendevous, June 2nd, 2015, 8:06am; Reply: 322

Quoted from SteveDiablo
But build it up on what?

That's cockteasing.



Not round our way it isn't.

That's usually dinner, yes you can have fries with that. What, an apple pie as well? Followed by rather a lot of expensive drinks. Then it's oh, is that the time? I've got to be up early in the morning. There's a cab. Call me next week, ok? Byee!

Now that's cockteasing.

R
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 8:11am; Reply: 323

Quoted from JSimon
There are times when the reviewer sets out with the goal of attacking the script. He's not looking for flaws in order to help the writer, he's looking for excuses to attack the work because it gives him pleasure for some reason to do so. Why would anyone enjoy doing that?


I've only done that once and it was to one of Jeff's scripts. I think you can probably understand why. Not that the script didn't deserve it, I just took exceptional pleasure in delivering it. I tried to find something wrong with every line. Took me a couple of hours and three pages but I can honestly say it was worth it.
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 8:15am; Reply: 324
At least Dustin is being honest.

And actually, Dustin's review yesterday is a good example of harsh but fair:  http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-0515OWC/m-1432484778/s-30/

That's a script by a writer that has a long way to go, but who wants to learn. The review was harsh but clearly intended to help.
Posted by: TonyDionisio, June 2nd, 2015, 8:59am; Reply: 325

Quoted from PrussianMosby
It's easy to talk about when you've been through all of that for some years. And most of us are.

That society changes has to be recognized. I think as a writer, we'd show sensibility toward others' feelings while talking truth same time.

On the other hand we shouldn't talk irresponsible. I don't want to dramatize it; still, writing is the most dangerous profession on earth. Biggest risks, no paid education, nothing. Highly time intensive. Years, decades of unpaid work. Bad Reputation within society. High risk of getting drug addictive because of not getting through themes we handle, injustice, truth, reflecting life. One of the highest suicide rates- That's us, we, our community. Just listen to De Niro at the Oscars about screenwriting. It's truth.


Say what?????

Posted by: PrussianMosby, June 2nd, 2015, 9:14am; Reply: 326
Hi Tony. I just wanted to add something the moment you posted ;-)

We could easily include some stylistics into reviews to not come across harsh. You just have to treat like a real person, not like a literal attack. And let something human shine between the line of the review. When it comes to fresh writers, I just can repeat myself in case of my opinion that writing's not a calm path, it could be stormy and much more.

To those we could act more like:
I hope you're aware that you're getting a real critique here because you're amid other writers who give you honest feedback, good feedback. XYZ within your script lacks. Be prepared to get a thick skin in the future because this business works with overcoming rejection every day.
It's always good to point out something positive too.

We shouldn't take their enthusiasm completely but I think it's just honest to foreshadow some problems oneself experienced in the past. And I bet a lot of writers have a lot more problems with their consuming passion to get a story out there than we'd ever admit.

There's a reason the most famous question toward a pro writer in any screenwriting blog

– What advice would you give to an unknown writer to enter this industry –

is permanently answered with:

"It sounds odd but with regards to the luck I had, I must say: Don't do it. Don't jump into this world."


;-) Just to remind of my post about the dark side of writing
Posted by: LC, June 2nd, 2015, 9:17am; Reply: 327

Quoted from JSimon
At least Dustin is being honest. And actually, Dustin's review yesterday is a good example of harsh but fair:  http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-0515OWC/m-1432484778/s-30/
That's a script by a writer that has a long way to go, but who wants to learn. The review was harsh but clearly intended to help.

Not having a go at Dustin here but this review was done after the writer had outed himself. In his first review Dustin said he was 'out on page 1'. I think, why even bother posting in that circumstance. Even so I wouldn't have bothered making a one line comment like that as it clearly isn't constructive.The anonymity factor of the OWC unfortunately means some reviewers are careless with their comments and it contributes to some (operative word 'some') reviewers being more harsh than they normally would be imh.

I'm not suggesting the OWC should not be anonymous either - everyone knows (except maybe Newbs) if you enter a script you do so at your own risk.
Posted by: rendevous, June 2nd, 2015, 9:19am; Reply: 328

Quoted from PrussianMosby
– What advice would you give to an unknown writer to enter this industry –

is permanently answered with:

"It sounds odd but with regards to the luck I had, I must say: Don't do it. Don't jump into this world."


;-) Just to remind of my post about the dark side of writing


Yes. But it's probably better than pornography, the military or bank robbing,

Money may often get tight, but at least writing my next script won't bring me out in a strange rash that's rather itchy, or get me shot.

R
Posted by: PrussianMosby, June 2nd, 2015, 9:33am; Reply: 329

Quoted from rendevous

... writing my next script won't bring me out in a strange rash that's rather itchy, or get me shot.


Yep. And may the force be with you.

It's hard to achieve that Jedi status though.

The dark side is treacherous.
Posted by: rendevous, June 2nd, 2015, 9:43am; Reply: 330

Quoted from PrussianMosby


Yep. And may the force be with you.

It's hard to achieve that Jedi status though.

The dark side is treacherous.


I think I'm being accused of being sithy. Which is of course 'silly', with a lisp.

R
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 10:04am; Reply: 331
You can have a go with Dustin, LC! lol. I've had a few myself.

I'm not holding his reviews in general up as a model. No way, no way. Just that particular review.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 10:11am; Reply: 332
If you want a model to adhere to, just use the vast majority of mine.

You will see honest reviews and examples of what I found to be a problem, and if I bail early, you'll know exactly why.

Now, if you disagree with my points, that's up to you, and that's fine.  Since there are no rules, this is all subjective.
Posted by: PrussianMosby, June 2nd, 2015, 10:20am; Reply: 333

Quoted from rendevous

I think I'm being accused of being sithy.

And does it affect you? If you all the time consider what happened in the past, what you've done, others done to you, you're going insane of course. No person can take that judgment. I think we can't take full responsibility for "everything" ourselves told in the past. That would be extreme masochism. Though I'm not sure if you're talking about something like that in any case ;-). Sorry for being Off topic-I'm just chatting with Ren
Posted by: eldave1, June 2nd, 2015, 10:21am; Reply: 334

Quoted from DanC


Eldave1
I was gonna write something in a different post, but, I will respond here.  I hope you don't stop writing and bury your story (u had said that).  Writers' block does suck.  Sometimes, taking a few days, or even weeks away does wonders.

Or use this site and post the issue, and perhaps one of the peeps on here might offer you a way out of the writers' block.  One thing this site seems to have a lot of, personality.  All different types with backgrounds, specialists etc.  So, instead of getting frustrated, I'd write a post about it.

I'm not as old as you, but, I turn 50 this year (actually, my spine is older then u as it turns 150, but, I digress) and I'm just getting back into writing.  I'm getting into the swing of it, and i won't lie, it's been hard.  But, after a crazy OWC, I feel a bit better.  I got some good feedback and as I work on the 250 script and a few other stories, including a few shorts, I am hopeful that I can make them better then they were.  

So, keep plugging away and ask us for advice or help.  I know I'm always willing to help out if I can.  No harm in asking, right?

Hope that helps.
Dan


Thanks for the shout out Dan - appreciated. Yesterday I dug my computer out of the dirt, cleaned the piss off and start typing again.

My reply to Dustin had less to do with writers block and more to do with writing as a "hobbyist." It made me realize that, much like I used life circumstances for the prior 30 years as an excuse not to be a writer, now that I can I am using the term "hobbyist" as a parachute for any inattention to the craft I wish to indulge in.  Thanks.


Posted by: CameronD, June 2nd, 2015, 10:22am; Reply: 335
I'm very comfortable with constructive criticism. I had an art teacher in high school who would just expose everything you did in front of the class so all could hear. But he was fair, honest, and always spot on. And I tell you what, his students turned out amazing work. Recruiters from art schools across the country would fly out to visit his classes.

The simple fact is if you want to grow, at anything, you need to be challenged. For example, when you work out, your muscles only get bigger when you tear them down to shreds on a daily basis.  

I learned a ton from this place and the honest feedback I received from everybody on here. I still have things to improve on, but I wouldn't have the skill level I  have today without this place and the growing pains early on.

Thanks I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Posted by: eldave1, June 2nd, 2015, 10:37am; Reply: 336

Quoted from bert
For all the chatter on here, the Bottom Line is really quite simple.

This is a message board, and a free one at that.  It runs on people.

That's the real currency here.  That's what keeps the engine going.

Continue to chase off new writers with purposefully dickish comments, and eventually, the board withers away.

If you find this board useful -- and want it to thrive -- don't be a dick.

Help to build it up and everybody wins.


Well said, Bert. From reading on further in this thread I see there has been false paradigms offered - where rudeness as offered up as honesty.

I think we can all agree that a dishonest, positive review has no value and that a honest negative one does.  I wish we could agree on this:

- Honest does not equal dick
- Negative does not equal dick
- Dick = Dick

One can be honest and negative without being a dick. It's pretty simple. The - "hey, I'm just writing how I see it" reasoning is tedious - especially coming from a writer who by definition must know that they can get the same point across without being a dick.

I learn a lot from negative reviews because they offer stuff that I can immediately work on. But, you don't have to give a negative review in a dickish (copy rite) manner.
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 10:40am; Reply: 337
A critique has to be more than honest to be a model. It has to be useful.
Posted by: LC, June 2nd, 2015, 10:43am; Reply: 338

Quoted from JSimon
You can have a go with Dustin, LC! lol. I've had a few myself. I'm not holding his reviews in general up as a model. No way, no way. Just that particular review.

I'm not trying to start anything. I made a comment on the quite noticeable before (anon) and after approach. I actually think Dustin offers well thought out and knowledgeable critiques in general.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 10:44am; Reply: 339

Quoted from LC

Not having a go at Dustin here but this review was done after the writer had outed himself. In his first review Dustin said he was 'out on page 1'. I think, why even bother posting in that circumstance. Even so I wouldn't have bothered making a one line comment like that as it clearly isn't constructive.The anonymity factor of the OWC unfortunately means some reviewers are careless with their comments and it contributes to some (operative word 'some') reviewers being more harsh than they normally would be imh.

I'm not suggesting the OWC should not be anonymous either - everyone knows (except maybe Newbs) if you enter a script you do so at your own risk.


Actually it's a time factor. I haven't got time for people I do not know. I know Dan and like him, so decided that I should elaborate as to why I was out on the first page. If you notice, my notes are only about page 1. I'm not going to get that detailed for everybody.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 10:48am; Reply: 340

Quoted from eldave1


- Honest does not equal dick
- Negative does not equal dick


Plenty of people take honesty in the wrong way. I know I did. People told me what was wrong with my scripts and I got all butt hurt. It wasn't that the reviews were dickish in any way it was simply that they were negative.

IMO, negativity in itself is enough for some writers to get the hump and declare the person delivering the negativity a dick.
Posted by: Max, June 2nd, 2015, 10:54am; Reply: 341
I kind of feel as if I don't have the right to criticize anyone's work really but that's just me, what do I know? Perhaps I'm not as confident as some here.

I'm trying to learn this stuff and I feel a bit wrong commenting on a piece when I still have an awful lot to learn.

I don't do this stuff for a living, I'm not looking to go professional, although it would be nice to have a short made.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 11:00am; Reply: 342

Quoted from Max
I kind of feel as if I don't have the right to criticize anyone's work really but that's just me, what do I know? Perhaps I'm not as confident as some here.

I'm trying to learn this stuff and I feel a bit wrong commenting on a piece when I still have an awful lot to learn.

I don't do this stuff for a living, I'm not looking to go professional, although it would be nice to have a short made.


It helps you to learn much faster if you comment. Sometimes you will point out what you believe is wrong and then the writer will offer you a different perspective in reply. And these things stay in your mind, and you debate the rights and wrongs of them... but all that really counts is that you have well told story. It has to be complete. I don't know how to explain when a story is complete as there aren't any rules in that regard. You'll just know when it's there.
Posted by: Stumpzian, June 2nd, 2015, 11:02am; Reply: 343
I think we all recognize true dickishness when we see it in criticism of someone else's script.
Posted by: CameronD, June 2nd, 2015, 11:02am; Reply: 344
You should Fengius. You'll be surprised at how much you can learn by looking at another person's script critically. If you want to improve it's a must.
Posted by: Max, June 2nd, 2015, 11:06am; Reply: 345
Yeah but if I was to criticize one of Dreamscale's scripts or whatever, I know in the back of his head he's probably thinking "Who is this scrub? What has he written? Show me!"

I kind of feel as if my perspective would be wasted in cases like this, I'm not saying he or anyone else thinks like that but still...
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 11:09am; Reply: 346
Fenigus, that is wrong. And Dream would agree with me. Because you can give feedback on what works with the story, which is really the most important thing anyway.

There is much value in the review of someone who's opinion has not been colored by pet peeves or theory. Someone who just has pure reaction to the story. And for veteran writers, that's much more important.
Posted by: eldave1, June 2nd, 2015, 11:37am; Reply: 347

Quoted from DustinBowcot


Plenty of people take honesty in the wrong way. I know I did. People told me what was wrong with my scripts and I got all butt hurt. It wasn't that the reviews were dickish in any way it was simply that they were negative.

IMO, negativity in itself is enough for some writers to get the hump and declare the person delivering the negativity a dick.


True.


Posted by: eldave1, June 2nd, 2015, 11:40am; Reply: 348

Quoted from JSimon
A critique has to be more than honest to be a model. It has to be useful.


To be a "model" - perhaps. I can see that. That being said, I would not want to limit critiques to those that are "useful."
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 11:48am; Reply: 349
What good is a critique that is not useful?

Of course there are all kinds of ways a critique can be useful. Even "I didn't open your script because I don't like the title" is useful.

However, "I didn't open your script because at the moment I am watching the Beverly Hillbillies" is not useful. Neither is "I stopped reading your script because it's not written in iambic pentameter" or "I stopped reading your script because the Fade was on the wrong side".
Posted by: eldave1, June 2nd, 2015, 12:06pm; Reply: 350

Quoted from JSimon
What good is a critique that is not useful?

Of course there are all kinds of ways a critique can be useful. Even "I didn't open your script because I don't like the title" is useful.

However, "I didn't open your script because at the moment I am watching the Beverly Hillbillies" is not useful. Neither is "I stopped reading your script because it's not written in iambic pentameter" or "I stopped reading your script because the Fade was on the wrong side".


Because sometimes "usefulness" is in the eye of the beholder (subjective).  

The extremes of this equation are obvious (i.e., pointing out a typo is useful - concluding that the script is horrible because there is a typo, is not).  However, there are gray areas. The filmables issue comes to mind. If someone says - you should never write something that is not filmable - I don't find that useful because I think that the premise is wrong.  However, I'm okay with some one offering that as a critique.  

Now, if someone said you included a filmable in your script and therefore you suck at writing - then it is both not useful and dickish. If they said you didn't include a DAY or NIGHT on your third scene heading and therefore you suck at writing - then it is useful and dickish.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 12:14pm; Reply: 351

Quoted from Max
Yeah but if I was to criticize one of Dreamscale's scripts or whatever, I know in the back of his head he's probably thinking "Who is this scrub? What has he written? Show me!"

I kind of feel as if my perspective would be wasted in cases like this, I'm not saying he or anyone else thinks like that but still...


No, Max.  Mr. Simon is correct and I do agree with him 100%.

I literally always say that any feedback is good feedback, and I truly beleive that.  It doesn't matter where or who it comes from.  It doesn't matter if it's accurate, even.  In fact, as I also always say, each and every writer needs to learn who and who not to listen to when it comes to feedback, based on teh feedback they give on a routine basis.  Here are numerous peeps here in SS who have literally no clue what they're talking about and their feedback is what makes that obvious.

Feedback is an opinion, and everyone should make their opinion clear.  It does also help when you may think something is wrong or just not right, and the writer or someone else chimes in to correct you, you definitely learn something.

Posted by: AnthonyCawood, June 2nd, 2015, 1:12pm; Reply: 352
When I started on SS I had a similar attitude to Fenigus, but think it was Dustin who nudged me to provide feedback and get involved... good advice, because as Simon and Jeff say you can always subjectively state what you do and don't like in a story... and why.

You could be the intended audience for the film, so your input could be really helpful to the writer... even if they are an old hand.

Agree with Jeff too that you need to work out who to listen to and also to remember to listen to your inner voice and stay true to what you believe.

I think the OWC is great for demonstrating this, if you check any script out, mine included, you'll see some contradictory feedback given, so you can't really incorporate both elements as they're in opposition. So you as the writer and owner of the story have to chose.

Anthony
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 1:33pm; Reply: 353
One thing for new writers to watch for: there is no other place like Simplyscripts that I'm aware of, so that's great...but be careful to not have this as your only source on writing. Get your hands on pro scripts and read as many as you can. You don't even have to read the whole script, just read the first act on most of them. But read a lot of them. Not old-timey scripts, I'm talking about scripts from recent years, especially spec scripts. Then make up your own mind on what is "correct" or not, and what works best. You owe it to yourself.
Posted by: eldave1, June 2nd, 2015, 2:18pm; Reply: 354

Quoted from JSimon
One thing for new writers to watch for: there is no other place like Simplyscripts that I'm aware of, so that's great...but be careful to not have this as your only source on writing. Get your hands on pro scripts and read as many as you can. You don't even have to read the whole script, just read the first act on most of them. But read a lot of them. Not old-timey scripts, I'm talking about scripts from recent years, especially spec scripts. Then make up your own mind on what is "correct" or not, and what works best. You owe it to yourself.


True that.

I read the King's Speech last week - it violated several screenwriting "conventions" - I thought it was brilliant.

Also interesting to read scripts for movies that you loved for movies that you didn't. I loved the script for The Fault in Our Stars - hated the movie.  Conversely - I loved the movie "As Good as It Gets - found the script a haphazard bore. Teaches one that things do not always translate from paper to film and vice versa.
Posted by: DanC, June 2nd, 2015, 2:38pm; Reply: 355

Quoted from DustinBowcot


Actually it's a time factor. I haven't got time for people I do not know. I know Dan and like him, so decided that I should elaborate as to why I was out on the first page. If you notice, my notes are only about page 1. I'm not going to get that detailed for everybody.


Thanks Dustin, that was nice of you.  I appreciated the feedback too.  
Posted by: Max, June 2nd, 2015, 2:40pm; Reply: 356
Dan is the man, did me some mad favours.
Posted by: DanC, June 2nd, 2015, 2:43pm; Reply: 357

Quoted from Max
Yeah but if I was to criticize one of Dreamscale's scripts or whatever, I know in the back of his head he's probably thinking "Who is this scrub? What has he written? Show me!"

I kind of feel as if my perspective would be wasted in cases like this, I'm not saying he or anyone else thinks like that but still...


Max,
     That's the wrong attitude.  Here is why:  We all have something to offer.  As others have said, you might be the intended target for the movie.  You might have insight into a problem.  You might spot a typo.  You might spot something.

You might spot something or think of something that opens a door for the writer to take the script to new heights.  But, if you don't say it, then the writer never knows.

For my script, Tales of Horror, Mark Renshaw said what if you made it more about her hating hunters?  And I went OMG that's AWESOME.  She hates the hunt, I establish that in the story.  If I follow through on it, I can add others to her wrath.  And I have a feeling if she was real and she came here, she'd be really pissed off b/c hunters today don't take risks.  They don't hunt.  They massacre.  The stuff they hunt has no real chance.  

If he's too shy to say that to me, IF I decide to do a followup, I never get that idea.  And it goes away.  

We are all here to get better.  We are all here to help others get better.  Any thought might be the one that allows the writer to achieve a dream.  So, who cares if you think you aren't worthy.  The worst you could be is wrong, and that's not a big deal.

The only harm is if you think your advice is infallible.  But, I have yet to see a person who suffers from that.  

Dan
Posted by: DanC, June 2nd, 2015, 2:46pm; Reply: 358

Quoted from Max
Dan is the man, did me some mad favours.


Thanks Max,
      Just trying to help.  One thing a lot of us newer peeps might not realize is, everything we do, read, write, critique, etc, all helps us become better.  I am not good at dialog.  I read a script and said wow, is that on the nose.

A week ago, I NEVER would have made that observation.  EVER.  

Learning is what we can all do.  It's the only hope we have if we are to ever achieve our dream of getting movies done that we thought of.  
Posted by: DanC, June 2nd, 2015, 3:06pm; Reply: 359
I wanted to add:

I didn't always have a thick skin.  Luckily, I played a game called Magic the Gathering for over 20 years.  And magic is a lot like writing.  You build a deck (write a story) and you and your buddies have some fun (or read it).  You are the best at magic (or the only writer amongst your friends, or you're all about the same level) and you mistakingly think you're good.  Then you take your act on the road and enter a tournament (submit to a contest or join a site) and you get destroyed.  At that point you have 2 options:

1.  Quit. Just play amongst your buds (write for your buds or local contests)

2.  Get better by getting a thick skin and listening to advice, especially by those who are better.  In one event, I played this kid.  He sat down and said to me that he felt bad for me b/c his deck had never lost and he was gonna mop the floor with me.  He told me don't get too upset, he was the best amongst his buds.  I was a seasoned vet by this time.  My buds refrained from cracking up too hard.  We played and I crushed him, badly.  It was his first tournament.  

I tried to offer advice, but, he actually thought I got "lucky" and stormed off.  A few hours later, he comes up to me and asks if the offer of help was still there.  He hadn't won a game yet, much less a match.  I said sure.  

IN MY OPINION  You MUST have a think skin to make it at writing.  I remember people who hated Silence of the Lambs.  Hated it.  Not everyone will like your story.  However, if 2 (or more) people say the exact same thing, you should take notice.

When Dustin and Dreamscape were harsh, I wanted to know why.  I wasn't angry or upset.  I wanted to learn.  And I did learn something from them.

Now, you could construe them saying I'm out on page 1 as being a bit dickish, after all, the story could pick up.  But, that's their right.  I know in a story I wrote, a person hated the first 5 pages, thought it was gonna be terrible, then proceeded to like the next 60.  No issues.  That can happen.

I admit, I care more about story then I do the "rules" and I have to work on that.  No one will ever read the story if they toss the script aside.

Remember, you could have the best story in the world starting on page 4.  If no one gets past page 2, it doesn't matter.  Everything counts.  Every page counts.  Every word counts.  

One of the biggest differences from writing a novel and a screenplay is that novels are often paid by the word.  You can write a 500 page novel.  You can NOT write a 500 page screenplay.  Hell, you can't write a 300 page screenplay.  And how many 200 pagers are there?  5?

So, every word matters.  every single word.  If you choose to have an aside or unfilmable here, you lose space elsewhere.  That is why people say write when they can shoot.  

How many know about the orphan word rule?

I didn't.  The orphan word rule is never have a word (or even 2 small words) on a line by themselves.  Pro writers and readers hate it b/c it SLOWS THEM DOWN.  How many times do we hear that?  

If you are Speilburg, you can write a 120 page screenplay and have the first 40 pages be boring.  We can't.  I have read we have at most 10 pages.  AT MOST.  

Taking advice is the only way we can learn.  Even if you give reasons for dropping out on page 1, perhaps just skip that and stop the advice when u stop reading.  Does it matter why or when you drop out?  You dropped out.  By stopping with the advice on page 1, I think we can assume you didn't finish it.  I can handle that I dropped out.  Some, might not be able to.

I'm still new and I guess I have more tolerance.  Hell, I read halfway in that awful Santa and the Pole Dancer story.  

So, perhaps we should have a post on here where all people can ask what counts as being a dick and what counts as being honest, but, harsh.  

Oh, Dustin, you know I like you and don't want to offend you, but, your one comment did hurt a bit.  I'm not hurt anymore, but, at the moment, it stung.  You said (when u didn't know it was me) that I wasn't even trying.  Clearly everyone who posts something is trying.  I can imagine some thinking that would be a dickish comment.  Again, I'm fine and I hope you offer me advice on my stuff.  Guys like you and Jeff are people that I need to get me technically in shape to have my stuff read.  

That's my 2 cents.

Dan
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 4:15pm; Reply: 360
In regard to orphans, they just look lonely on their own. You most certainly can end with one though if you must.

I'm sorry for the comment but I thought that it was a seasoned writer entering a pisser. As others have noted, they said a seasoned writer had written it, so I suppose I was picking up vibes of that while seeing all the overwriting, adding it together and coming up with pisser. I actually thought it was Jeff's. So there was a bit of that in there too.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 5:38pm; Reply: 361
Those, lovely, lonely, misunderstood orphans.

Here's the real skinny on the little guys...

Can you have orphans in your script?  Hell yes, you can.

Should you "try" and alleviate as many or all that you can?  Hell yes, you should.

The thing is that most writers include unnecessary words in their sentences and sometimes, the sentence will spill over to the next line by 1 word, wich is known as an orphan, becuase it's all alone.  But, in reality, the orphan syndrome could be 2 words, even 3 words.

The problem with them is that they "waste" an entire line, and you only have approximately 55 lines per page, and you know all 55 cannot be used (many will be blank).

So, let's do some real quick and easy math...

You've written a 100 page feature script, and you have 2 orphans on each page...what does that translate to?  About 4 "extra" pages of nothing.  4 orphans per page?  Damn...8 wasted pages!

You can also look at it on a short with a limited page maximum, like an OWC, and hopefully you understand how the wasted space piles up and prevents you from writing important things that you want to include.

But, the bottom line is not to omit words that should be included just to kill the red headed little orphan, but look for ways to write a stronger sentence that does away with the poor, lonely little orphans.

Word to the mother...
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 6:31pm; Reply: 362
There is another benefit from learning to reduce orphans: you learn how to be more efficient with your words. And this has a surprising pay off even if you switch to prose.

Of course, orphans really don't affect the read, so the only person that should care is the writer.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 6:34pm; Reply: 363

Quoted from JSimon
There is another benefit from learning to reduce orphans: you learn how to be more efficient with your words. And this has a surprising pay off even if you switch to prose.


True, but remember, in prose, word count and page count don't matter.


Quoted from JSimon
Of course, orphans really don't affect the read, so the only person that should care is the writer.


Not true. They affect page count and that definitely affects the read.

Posted by: rendevous, June 2nd, 2015, 6:38pm; Reply: 364

Quoted from Dreamscale


Not true. They affect page count and that definitely affects the read.



Yes. You may end up with a whole extra page or two.

R
Posted by: PrussianMosby, June 2nd, 2015, 6:46pm; Reply: 365
I have a different opinion here.

If you're trying to fight for every line of space, all your descriptions end up looking like a block. Most paragraphs would stop at the right margin then. In my eyes that's not esthetic to look at. All pages look equal then, blocks of dialogue and blocks of descriptions.

Second point: We read from left to right. The way for the eye is longer if we cross the whole page, instead of just going down and read on more often. I even heard that we're trained that our left eye controls coordination when reading; somewhere, don't know if it's true.

Third point: If you save a line, you get more words on the page as supposed and the reader will notice you packed it all up, saved a line, and packed it up again.
Sure the script's shorter – the page is not.

3 "single word" orphans within one page, that looks stupid, there I agree. So, that may relativize my disagreemnt. I mainly talk about trying to push every three word line upwards, you know. That's wrong in my o.
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 6:54pm; Reply: 366
Dream missed my point. Orphans of course don't matter in prose. But learning how to write efficiently DOES matter. What I was saying is that the experience of writing screen and learning how to eliminate orphans has the side effect of helping the writer learn how to be more efficient with his words.

As for the orphan effect on the reading of a screenplay, it's negligible at best even if there are a lot of them. A 90 page screenplay might become 94, but you're not really reading much more...there's more white space because of the orphans.
Posted by: DanC, June 2nd, 2015, 7:02pm; Reply: 367

Quoted from JSimon
Dream missed my point. Orphans of course don't matter in prose. But learning how to write efficiently DOES matter. What I was saying is that the experience of writing screen and learning how to eliminate orphans has the side effect of helping the writer learn how to be more efficient with his words.

As for the orphan effect on the reading of a screenplay, it's negligible at best even if there are a lot of them. A 90 page screenplay might become 94, but you're not really reading much more...there's more white space because of the orphans.


But, I read someplace that too many orphans can tell the pro reading your story that you aren't a pro and hate to say it, that can make them pass over your script.  Don't we need every little advantage we can get?

Dan
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 7:12pm; Reply: 368

Quoted from JSimon
Dream missed my point. Orphans of course don't matter in prose. But learning how to write efficiently DOES matter. What I was saying is that the experience of writing screen and learning how to eliminate orphans has the side effect of helping the writer learn how to be more efficient with his words.


I didn't miss your point.  I agreed with you.  I guess I shouldn't have mentioned the part about prose..but yes...I agree with you 100%


Quoted from JSimon
As for the orphan effect on the reading of a screenplay, it's negligible at best even if there are a lot of them. A 90 page screenplay might become 94, but you're not really reading much more...there's more white space because of the orphans.


Do the math, bro.  You may be shocked.  In fact, read my words on Script Club for Black Swan.  I can't remember exactly, but do to asides and orphans, I think I said there were an extra 20 pages in the script.

Also, as I said, for a limited page count script, it can and will matter if you have lots of wasted lines, you won't be able to include what you really wanted to...maybe...
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 7:15pm; Reply: 369

Quoted from rendevous
Yes. You may end up with a whole extra page or two.R


Yep, and if you have a 12 page limit, that means 1 or 2 pages of important story/sction/dialogue won't get in there, due to your wasting lines for no fucking reason...other than you didn't edit your writing...or you don't know any better.

Posted by: stevie, June 2nd, 2015, 7:19pm; Reply: 370
Notr sure about the different software that others use, but on the Sophocles I write on, I only noticed last year that orphans only show up if you look at the printer preview which shows how your script will look as a PDF. Before that I was thinking 'why have I got these orphans'? Because when you are using the software as you write, it may not look like there is an orphan but it becomes one when it converts to PDF as it must skip a line.

I dunno, mayb my page settings are out but they've been unchanged for years since I got Soph off Balt
Posted by: rendevous, June 2nd, 2015, 7:23pm; Reply: 371

Quoted from Dreamscale


Yep, and if you have a 12 page limit, that means 1 or 2 pages of important story/sction/dialogue won't get in there, due to your wasting lines for no fucking reason...other than you didn't edit your writing...or you don't know any better.



Rubbish. I was talking about a full length script. On a short script you may end up with an extra paragraph, tops. You're being silly.

You're also ignoring the idea that a scene in a full length script should take up the right number of pages. A twelve minute scene should last around twelve pages or so, in a full length script. Just in case you're confused. Or don't know any better.

And there no need to swear. Think of the children.

R
Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 7:37pm; Reply: 372

Quoted Text
You're also ignoring the idea that a scene in a full length script should take up the right number of pages.


He's right, Not because it's a rule, but I take his point. In my OWC I altered my normal writing style to reflect the time involved in the elevator. There are times you need to stretch it out. I'm not saying that to advocate orphans...I'm saying cutting pages is not ALWAYS the goal. It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes you want to add more white space and stretch it out.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 7:45pm; Reply: 373

Quoted from rendevous
Rubbish. I was talking about a full length script. On a short script you may end up with an extra paragraph, tops. You're being silly.

You're also ignoring the idea that a scene in a full length script should take up the right number of pages. A twelve minute scene should last around twelve pages or so, in a full length script. Just in case you're confused. Or don't know any better.

And there no need to swear. Think of the children.


Ren, hopefully, you can do the simple math...if not, I tried to lay it out there for you.

Any scene in any script should play out (in average) to 1 page equalling 1 minute of film time.  Whether you know it or not, it doesn't on a line by line or even page by page basis, and that's based on exactly what each line or page contains.

Dialogue "can" take up more space on the page than it does on film, especially when you have multiple characters speaking in short, quick lines.

Action "can" take up more time on film because of the visuals involved, but a big setpiece scene can also take up alot of space on the page, if the writer sets the scene and action correctly.

All in all, in most cases, it's a great rule of thumb to plan for 1 page equalling 1 minute of film time, over the course of the entire script.

But...what in the heck (no swearing) does that have to do with orphans?  Answer...nothing.

And for features vs. shorts?  Really?  Again, try to do the math.  If you need to, use a calculator. It's pretty simple, 3rd or 4th grade stuff.  Every line you waste is 1 line you won't have as you near your page limit.

Thank you very much!  I'll be back each night this week and look forward to seeing all your smiling faces in the audience.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 8:04pm; Reply: 374

Quoted from JSimon
He's right, Not because it's a rule, but I take his point. In my OWC I altered my normal writing style to reflect the time involved in the elevator. There are times you need to stretch it out. I'm not saying that to advocate orphans...I'm saying cutting pages is not ALWAYS the goal. It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes you want to add more white space and stretch it out.


Are you saying you used orphans to pad your script?  I hope not.

Time is a serious element that all writers need to understand how to use for sure.  But using orphans to artificially pad yuor script is not the way to do it, bro.  You know that, though.  Just not sure why you'd say such a thing.

Posted by: JSimon, June 2nd, 2015, 8:39pm; Reply: 375
You simplify things because, and I'm sorry to say this again, but you like things broken down to neat little rules. But the fact is that circumstances vary and so what is a general rule does not apply in every circumstance.

It's true that a screenwriter must learn to conserve words, lines and space. It's something we learn in our early scripts and it's important.

But there ARE times that you need to artificially stretch the white space to convey the feeling of the time involved in the scene.

I'm not necessarily suggesting creating orphans, but you may have to use some technique which violates your maxim of conserving lines. A clever writer will do this when needed.

Yes, it's done in pro scripts, but it's not a matter of copying a pro script. It's a matter of writers coming to that same common sense conclusion on their own when as a writer they're trying to properly convey to a reader the time involved in the scene.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 2nd, 2015, 11:06pm; Reply: 376

Quoted from JSimon
You simplify things because, and I'm sorry to say this again, but you like things broken down to neat little rules. But the fact is that circumstances vary and so what is a general rule does not apply in every circumstance.

It's true that a screenwriter must learn to conserve words, lines and space. It's something we learn in our early scripts and it's important.

But there ARE times that you need to artificially stretch the white space to convey the feeling of the time involved in the scene.

I'm not necessarily suggesting creating orphans, but you may have to use some technique which violates your maxim of conserving lines. A clever writer will do this when needed.

Yes, it's done in pro scripts, but it's not a matter of copying a pro script. It's a matter of writers coming to that same common sense conclusion on their own when as a writer they're trying to properly convey to a reader the time involved in the scene.


Dude... really?  Did I not just say the same fucking thing?

OK, I give up.  You continue to want to argue every single little point you can possibly argue.

Write however you fucking want to.  Seriously...that's great.  Write in lines like, "Shit!", or "did he really just see that?", or how about, "did that really happen?".  If you think these kinds of ploys work for you, or if yuo want to purposely place poor, little, innocent orphans into your action/secription lines to pad the runtime...please do.  Thta's great.  That's super smart.  You'll sell scripts like there's no tomorrow.

Enjoy your rules and continue to try to polute the other writers into thinking this makes some kind of sense.

Great job, leading the blind...

Posted by: rendevous, June 3rd, 2015, 12:25am; Reply: 377

Quoted from Dreamscale


Ren, hopefully, you can do the simple math...if not, I tried to lay it out there for you.


Oh I see. It's about math now. Do tell.

My breath is bated. My goat is tethered. Just off to get a pen, and a pad too. I'll be sure to pass on all your  pearls of wisdom to my local writing group.

Please, enlighten us all. Should I get my calculator? Probably not.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Any scene in any script should play out (in average) to 1 page equalling 1 minute of film time.  Whether you know it or not, it doesn't on a line by line or even page by page basis, and that's based on exactly what each line or page contains.


I didn't say that it did. But it can sometimes. That's your problem. You neglect to add script format and rules are flexible. Format is just a method to convey story. The story is the important bit.

But you're out by page one again, so you'll never know what the story was. No time, you see. Too busy. You're probably off saving animals at the vet. Or helping out at the local orphanage.

And you're babbling again. Always desperately reaching for another point to change the subject away from the fact you're way off. Add that up, Descartes.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Dialogue "can" take up more space on the page than it does on film, especially when you have multiple characters speaking in short, quick lines.


Fascinating. You'll start going on about gardening next. Have I told you about my roses?


Quoted from Dreamscale
Action "can" take up more time on film because of the visuals involved, but a big setpiece scene can also take up alot of space on the page, if the writer sets the scene and action correctly.


Wow. I was never sure. Thanks. Just writing it down now.

Your posts "can" bore the arse off. Why not go on about fonts, or the amount of letters on a line next. You seem to have forgotten your theme about math. It "can" happen occasionally. Now hurry up and get to some sort of decent point. I'm peckish, I might just open a "can" of soup.


Quoted from Dreamscale
All in all, in most cases, it's a great rule of thumb to plan for 1 page equalling 1 minute of film time, over the course of the entire script.


Yeah, thanks again, I know it is. I told you about it in my previous post.


Quoted from Dreamscale
But...what in the heck (no swearing) does that have to do with orphans?  Answer...nothing.


It's got a lot to do with it. You're scared to admit it. As I said earlier, format is flexible.

I was talking about pacing. So there's a few lines that have one or two words on them. Big deal. What will you put in all that saved space? If you're so desperate for space you could lose a few lines of dialogue. That'd save you way more. You talk about orphans as if they are a huge problem and sacriledge. A few don't make the slightest bit of difference.


Quoted from Dreamscale
And for features vs. shorts?  Really?  Again, try to do the math.  If you need to, use a calculator. It's pretty simple, 3rd or 4th grade stuff.  Every line you waste is 1 line you won't have as you near your page limit.


Really. I like the line about the calculator. It wasn't the slightest bit patronising or condescending. Worthy of Wilde.

Orphans take up one line, Fermat. Read what I said earlier about dialogue.

I mentioned feature length scripts as you were hugely exaggerating the amount of space you'd save. You're just obfuscating the point. Which is frankly typical. You can't bear to be corrected, or contradicted. Dedums.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Thank you very much!  I'll be back each night this week and look forward to seeing all your smiling faces in the audience.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Oh. You seem to think you're at a comedy club. I can't wait until you start cracking the jokes. Now, I'm off to do some logarithms.

R
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 3rd, 2015, 10:18am; Reply: 378

Quoted from rendevous
Oh. You seem to think you're at a comedy club. I can't wait until you start cracking the jokes. Now, I'm off to do some logarithms.R


Dude, the true comedy is in your words. The problem is that it's not when you think you're being funny, though.  Your replies and nuggets of info are on the same level as a movie like "Up from the Depths" - so fucking bad, it's hilarious.

Can't wait to hear more from you, Renny.

Posted by: Max, June 3rd, 2015, 10:39am; Reply: 379
Is all this really necessary?

This thread has turned into people trying to ONE-UP each other.
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 3rd, 2015, 11:40am; Reply: 380

Quoted from Max

This thread has turned into people trying to ONE-UP each other.


Oh no it hasn't.
Posted by: Reef Dreamer, June 3rd, 2015, 11:43am; Reply: 381

Quoted from DustinBowcot


Oh no it hasn't.


:D
Posted by: Max, June 3rd, 2015, 11:49am; Reply: 382
It's just banter lads, just banter.
Posted by: JSimon, June 3rd, 2015, 12:57pm; Reply: 383
I happened to read Bert's script Mighty Fire today(will comment there later). And I read Dream's comment there. It really serves to illustrate the problem.

Bert is not a newb. He's a veteran writer and every single word is chosen carefully. He is perfectly and fully aware of every line he uses and he has a reason for using it.

It seems to be a again an example of Dream stopping his read on page one. His comments take Bert to task for "wasted lines".

Look, this kind of analysis is useful to new writers. But with veteran writers, they are using those lines precisely the way they intend to.

New writers overwrite things. Too much description, inefficient sentences, and yes, orphans. As a result a 100 pages script can easily become a 120 page slog to get through...not just because of the length, but because of the density.

Thus the maxim to learn how to conserve lines.

Which Dream takes and turns into a law. That's misguided, and EVERY veteran writer knows it.

Once you learn how to become almost perfectly efficient with your language and your lines, you may want to dedicate some of the lines to achieve some other effect. In the script Mighty Fire, Bert wanted to set the tone for his location, New Orleans, by putting a little flavor in his action lines at the beginning. It was clearly a conscious choice. Most readers reacted well to it. Only one reader was bothered by it. Predictably. So it was a smart choice.

Bert used this description: a man who knows where he's headed.

Of course that's technically unfilmable. And of course Bert, a veteran writer, knew this when he wrote it. He did not do so capriciously. It cost him a line of space, and it was a line he was willing to spend out of his budget of lines. And it's not even truly unfilmable. If he had said "a man walks down the street thinking of killing his wife when he got home"...that's unfilmable. But we can picture the man Bert describes. He's a man on a mission. Perfectly fine.

This is the problem with taking general rules and turning them into laws as though this were computer code.

Is it a problem for Dream to point these things out? No. And it can be helpful. But it IS a problem when he stops on page one of scripts written by quality writers and insults the writer by calling it crap. Pia has a longer IMDB list of scripts filmed than everyone here combined. But he stopped his read on her OWC on page one! Ah, Houston we have a problem when that happens. When a reviewer calls a script crap for reasons that have nothing to do with the story or the clarity of the writing, that's a problem. For new writers, I suggest following his advice...until you level up. Then you'll see for yourself what makes sense and what doesn't.
Posted by: DanC, June 3rd, 2015, 1:26pm; Reply: 384

Quoted from JSimon
I happened to read Bert's script Mighty Fire today(will comment there later). And I read Dream's comment there. It really serves to illustrate the problem.

Bert is not a newb. He's a veteran writer and every single word is chosen carefully. He is perfectly and fully aware of every line he uses and he has a reason for using it.

It seems to be a again an example of Dream stopping his read on page one. His comments take Bert to task for "wasted lines".

Look, this kind of analysis is useful to new writers. But with veteran writers, they are using those lines precisely the way they intend to.

New writers overwrite things. Too much description, inefficient sentences, and yes, orphans. As a result a 100 pages script can easily become a 120 page slog to get through...not just because of the length, but because of the density.

Thus the maxim to learn how to conserve lines.

Which Dream takes and turns into a law. That's misguided, and EVERY veteran writer knows it.

Once you learn how to become almost perfectly efficient with your language and your lines, you may want to dedicate some of the lines to achieve some other effect. In the script Mighty Fire, Bert wanted to set the tone for his location, New Orleans, by putting a little flavor in his action lines at the beginning. It was clearly a conscious choice. Most readers reacted well to it. Only one reader was bothered by it. Predictably. So it was a smart choice.

Bert used this description: a man who knows where he's headed.

Of course that's technically unfilmable. And of course Bert, a veteran writer, knew this when he wrote it. He did not do so capriciously. It cost him a line of space, and it was a line he was willing to spend out of his budget of lines. And it's not even truly unfilmable. If he had said "a man walks down the street thinking of killing his wife when he got home"...that's unfilmable. But we can picture the man Bert describes. He's a man on a mission. Perfectly fine.

This is the problem with taking general rules and turning them into laws as though this were computer code.

Is it a problem for Dream to point these things out? No. And it can be helpful. But it IS a problem when he stops on page one of scripts written by quality writers and insults the writer by calling it crap. Pia has a longer IMDB list of scripts filmed than everyone here combined. But he stopped his read on her OWC on page one! Ah, Houston we have a problem when that happens. When a reviewer calls a script crap for reasons that have nothing to do with the story or the clarity of the writing, that's a problem. For new writers, I suggest following his advice...until you level up. Then you'll see for yourself what makes sense and what doesn't.



I see what you are saying.  But, I have a few questions:
1.  When Bert writes "A man who knows where he's headed" couldn't that be a cue for the ACTOR to walk arrogantly?  There are different ways to walk down a street or interact with people.  While those words are unfilmable, the actor knows the motivation for the scene, if not the entire story.  So, isn't that kind of aside important?

I always was under the impression that a screenplay was about the story, including what and how the characters act.  I'm not saying that we say "he raises his left and and sips the tea four times," but, to say he proudly walks down the street as opposed to he gingerly walks down the street is a huge difference.

Having filmed my thesis myself, it is hard for the director if you are too specific.  Saying he has an AC/DC shirt on with a multi-colored tie, gray jacket, and black pants with stripes, red socks and blue sneakers is certainly overkill.  However, wearing an AC/DC shirt, heavy metal spike band, long greasy hair, ripped faded jeans, and smells of refer does tell a story.  We can infer that he likes heavy metal, loves AC/DC, most likely doesn't like authority, and might have a drug problem.  The director can easily put the cig in his mouth.  

I guess my point is that what one person might see as an aside or not important unfilmable might be another's depth of a scene or character.  It might be unfilmable, but, at the same time, the actor might know exactly what the writer envisioned for the role.  Especially nowadays where a person living in the Outback could option a story that is produced in Seattle, but, shot in Vancouver, Canada.  Since it is unlikely that the writer would fly out to Seattle or Vancouver, the only way to get their vision would be to let them know.

I wonder how many times a bad movie from a great script happens b/c the vision the writer has wasn't conveyed clearly enough to match with what the director felt.  

If I envision a smarty pants heavy metal junkie with a good heart, but, the director sees a down to earth introvert who dreams of bunnies on unicorns, you get a very different movie.  
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 3rd, 2015, 1:34pm; Reply: 385
JSimon just literally cannot stop talking about me.  Dude, what is it with you?

He also can't stop bringing up rules and now laws, even.

It's getting kind of creepy, dude.  It's like every single one of your posts, you bring me into it and then you bring in your rules and laws you like to dscuss.

It's getting old.  Please try and move on to something else, other than me.  Is that asking too much?
Posted by: Max, June 3rd, 2015, 1:37pm; Reply: 386
Does Dreamscale have any produced credits? Would like to check them out.

I can't believe Pia actually got Rishi from Emmerdale into one of her scripts, lol.

That's quality.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 3rd, 2015, 1:50pm; Reply: 387
Everyone can feel free to completely ignore my comments and feedback.  I have no problem with that.

Instead, listen to the likes of JSimon and Rendevous.  Good luck...see where that gets you.
Posted by: Max, June 3rd, 2015, 2:38pm; Reply: 388

Quoted from DanC



I see what you are saying.  But, I have a few questions:
1.  When Bert writes "A man who knows where he's headed" couldn't that be a cue for the ACTOR to walk arrogantly?  There are different ways to walk down a street or interact with people.  While those words are unfilmable, the actor knows the motivation for the scene, if not the entire story.  So, isn't that kind of aside important?

I always was under the impression that a screenplay was about the story, including what and how the characters act.  I'm not saying that we say "he raises his left and and sips the tea four times," but, to say he proudly walks down the street as opposed to he gingerly walks down the street is a huge difference.

Having filmed my thesis myself, it is hard for the director if you are too specific.  Saying he has an AC/DC shirt on with a multi-colored tie, gray jacket, and black pants with stripes, red socks and blue sneakers is certainly overkill.  However, wearing an AC/DC shirt, heavy metal spike band, long greasy hair, ripped faded jeans, and smells of refer does tell a story.  We can infer that he likes heavy metal, loves AC/DC, most likely doesn't like authority, and might have a drug problem.  The director can easily put the cig in his mouth.  

I guess my point is that what one person might see as an aside or not important unfilmable might be another's depth of a scene or character.  It might be unfilmable, but, at the same time, the actor might know exactly what the writer envisioned for the role.  Especially nowadays where a person living in the Outback could option a story that is produced in Seattle, but, shot in Vancouver, Canada.  Since it is unlikely that the writer would fly out to Seattle or Vancouver, the only way to get their vision would be to let them know.

I wonder how many times a bad movie from a great script happens b/c the vision the writer has wasn't conveyed clearly enough to match with what the director felt.  

If I envision a smarty pants heavy metal junkie with a good heart, but, the director sees a down to earth introvert who dreams of bunnies on unicorns, you get a very different movie.  


I don't think it's THAT unfilmable, if a man is walking like he's on a mission... or walking like he knows where he's headed it's like... a very solid stride, military fashion... a look of complete focus on the face, no wasted movement... just efficient stepping.

It works for me but it just depends on who you are.

The actor would know not to skip down the street for instance, he would know not to flail his arms around ect, or walk slowly ect.
Posted by: bert, June 3rd, 2015, 9:16pm; Reply: 389
So, while studiously avoiding a very tedious discussion of orphans, it seems I missed a very interesting post.  At least, to me, anyway.  The primary focus being this seemingly innocuous turn of a phrase:


Quoted from JSimon
...a man who knows where he's headed.


I have to say, I agree with JSimon on pretty much all counts.  I did a few things in Mighty Fire exactly as he describes, for exactly the purposes he describes.  He gets me haha!  Which I find strangely gratifying.  So thanks for that.

As to the issue of Dreamscale, I know he dislikes my work for the most part, which is fine, because he is not my target audience.    

There are plenty of issues where Dreamscale and I have agreed to disagree.  He brings value with some of his comments, but many of his views are outdated.  He refuses to believe this because he adamantly refuses to read recent spec scripts.

He does watch a ton of movies -- and while that may be useful on some levels -- I consider it a flawed approach.  He disagrees with me, of course, as I disagree with him, but we pretty much leave it at that.

If you want to write a comfortable old Chevy that runs just fine, Dreamscale can get you there.  But if you want to write a Lamborghini that makes people drool, you are going to have to step outside of Dreamscale's comfort zone.

I don't discuss the "rules" much anymore.  I have discussed them to death over the years, and nobody ever changes anybody's mind, anyway.  Fact is, you have to change your own mind, which takes time and experience.

Read the new scripts that are selling.  Find those Blacklist scripts every year.  Decide for yourself what works and what doesn't work.  Then adjust your understanding of the "rules" accordingly.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 3rd, 2015, 10:43pm; Reply: 390

Quoted from JSimon
Pia has a longer IMDB list of scripts filmed than everyone here combined. But he stopped his read on her OWC on page one! Ah, Houston we have a problem when that happens.  


I feel giddy! I was mentioned in a post!  ;D

First off, I have a LOT of credits! Way more than the imdb list too, but that's because I'm Swedish. We tend to not wait for someone to by the cow. We give the milk away for free....Pirate Bay and so on....

In Jeff's defense, I went out of my way to trip him up. I added asides and other stuff just to see how he would react and at least he was consistent. He never read mine. I know what you guys are talking about, and I agree, I just wanted to make sure people knew I went overboard on purpose. :)

Posted by: LC, June 3rd, 2015, 11:18pm; Reply: 391

Quoted from Grandma Bear
...I just wanted to make sure people knew I went overboard on purpose. :)

I suppose when you already have a coveted SS mug you have nothing to lose.  ;D
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 4th, 2015, 1:08pm; Reply: 392
I do not feel giddy being constantly mentioned and put down in many of these posts.

Hell, even Bert is now doing it.

I actually looked back at my comments on Bert's Mighty Fire, since Kevin...I mean JSimon, brought that up for some crazy reason, and as I assumed, I provided indepth feedback about why I stopped on Page 1 and what I saw that could be written better.

As we all know, no one has to take feedback to heart, or even agree with it.  I think what I did provide makes perfect sense and other than the 1 "unfilmable line", which does give a visual and in an of itself, is no big deal, my other comments all were on point and  would help his opening page.

It's odd how everyone seems to want to discount my expertise and knowledge all of a sudden, but peeps, who I don't even know, continue to PM and E-Mail me with requests to look at their writing.  Strange...very strange.

Crry on, peeps.  Follow Kevin...damn...I mean JSimon and write asides on every page.  Throw orphans in to pad your page count and create white space at the expense of omitting much more important things.  And finally, make sure you use a smartass voice, with swear words and cliches as often as possible.   It's a winning formula...how cuold it not be?  It worked for Shane Black, right?
Posted by: Max, June 4th, 2015, 1:23pm; Reply: 393
I'm curious Dreamscale, what qualifications do you have? I know you mentioned something about majoring in something or other.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of your produced credits either, then I can look at your scripts and see how they translate to the screen.

I haven't really took any higher-learning when it comes to writing.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 4th, 2015, 1:31pm; Reply: 394
I'm not putting your expertise down, Jeff. Your English is educated. Mine is not, which is why I stick to writing as simple and terse as possible. It's safer for me. I don't think I can write good, clever, smartass asides even if I tried. I hadn't written an OWC in such a long time, I just wanted to have a bit of fun. I did what I did with my script, not only to see how you would react, but also to disguise myself. Apparently, my writing is easy to spot.  :)

Having said that, I have to agree with some of the others though. I've read a boat load, barge load actually of scripts. Pro, specs, amateur and complete newbie ones. Fact is that people that read scripts in the film biz do not care if the scripts are riddled with asides and such. In fact, I read one script from the 2014 Blacklist, can't remember the title, but it was on the extreme side. It even had one page in the middle of the srcipt that only had one word on it and that word was FUCK! In bold and a font that must have been a 48pt or something. It still made the Blacklist and I believe it's in pre-production. I've also read scripts that were so enjoyable to read I was just swept away while reading it. When I was finished though, I realized that I loved how this writer writes, swear words and asides and all, but in the end, the story was not as strong as the writing. That's the whole thing right there! Everyone is looking for a great story! The writing itself is really secondary. I hate to say that, but I believe that to be the truth. And as far as the argument goes that, why spoil your opportunity when a studio reader opens your script by having it scream amateur goes, I believe that most of us who've read 1000s of scripts can usually tell after the first few pages if the writer knows how to tell a story or not. Regardless of the writing style. Just my humble opinion of course.  :)
Posted by: Max, June 4th, 2015, 1:34pm; Reply: 395
Scripts like "Django Unchained" read well to me, and that breaks all the rules.

QT can do what he wants of course but there's still merit in the way that screenplay is written, IMO of course.

If he trimmed it down to bare bones... it would still work of course.

Edge of Tomorrow script as well, most of that shit is in CAPS at the start but it's RIGHT IN YOUR FACE, the action feels like it's coming off the page.

I love scripts which are written like that.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 4th, 2015, 1:41pm; Reply: 396

Quoted from Max
I'm curious Dreamscale, what qualifications do you have? I know you mentioned something about majoring in something or other.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of your produced credits either, then I can look at your scripts and see how they translate to the screen.

I haven't really took any higher-learning when it comes to writing.


No qualifications.  Dropped ouit of grammar school at the age of 7, lived on the mean streets of Pittsburgh, where I fathered 3 children by the age of 15.  I then opened up up a barber shop, specializing in blown out afros and mullets, back in the early 80's.  Today, I work as a plumber's helper.

Disregard all my feedback, as it's amatuer hour stuff I harp on.

Every Pro script should have 3 or 4 pages of nothing but FUCK and the like, somewhere near the middle...maybe even the first 4 pages?  That's what sells for sure and that really translates to the big screen.  Do as the Pros do and you'll all be Pros in no time flat.

Peace out.
Posted by: Max, June 4th, 2015, 1:45pm; Reply: 397
Okay, lol.
Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 4th, 2015, 1:54pm; Reply: 398

Quoted from Dreamscale

Disregard all my feedback, as it's amatuer hour stuff I harp on.

Every Pro script should have 3 or 4 pages of nothing but FUCK and the like, somewhere near the middle...maybe even the first 4 pages?  That's what sells for sure and that really translates to the big screen.  Do as the Pros do and you'll all be Pros in no time flat.

You're misunderstanding me, Jeff. I did not meant that anyone should try to copy what some pros do. Some pros write exactly like you suggest. All I'm saying is that the story comes first.

I also did not say people should disregard your feedback. I ask you for reads, don't I? The problem people are having is when you can't even finish the first page of a script because of the writing style. That's ignoring the story completely and like I said, story trumps the writing style. The story we can see on screen. The writing style, we cannot.
Posted by: Stumpzian, June 4th, 2015, 2:04pm; Reply: 399

Quoted from Max

I wouldn't mind seeing some of your produced credits either, then I can look at your scripts and see how they translate to the screen


Jeff has one on Vimeo -- "What a Wonderful World."


Posted by: JSimon, June 4th, 2015, 2:11pm; Reply: 400
I got a haircut at that place! Back in my afro days.
Posted by: Reef Dreamer, June 4th, 2015, 2:17pm; Reply: 401

Quoted from Stumpzian


Jeff has one on Vimeo -- "What a Wonderful World."




One of my  favourite scripts - didn't know it had been produced. Bet it's not easy to watch.
Posted by: Stumpzian, June 4th, 2015, 2:48pm; Reply: 402

Quoted from Reef Dreamer


One of my  favourite scripts - didn't know it had been produced. Bet it's not easy to watch.


I don't know. I didn't like the first minute, so I bailed.

Just kidding. It was pretty well done.
Posted by: AnthonyCawood, June 4th, 2015, 3:10pm; Reply: 403
Love this thread ;-)

So if you find Jeff a little curt then he won't mind if you ignore him, if I'm too nice and non specifc please feel free to ignore me.

What you shouldn't ignore, particularly with the OWCs, is where you consistently get the same feedback - to me that highlights that something needs looking at. Note I said 'look at', not fix... you may look at it and still think you are right... and that's fine, it's your script.

I say this because what you are receiving here is feedback from other writers, your peers, they are great for story structure, formatting arguements, rules or lack of them etc, etc - but...

It isn't feedback from Producers or Directors (for the main) and yet it's these people who you are ultimately hoping to engage and get to read and like your script.

So perhaps there is something in considering feedback from the writers on here based on how good they are at engaging with Producers and Directors, i.e. the credits they have, or the scripts they've sold, or even the scripts they've produced.

And yes Fenigus, Jeff/Dreamscale does have a credit for a short, dark and gritty one as mentioned above.

Ultimately feedback can be taken or left, who you choose to listen to is entirely up to you.

Posted by: Max, June 4th, 2015, 3:16pm; Reply: 404
I don't know who to listen to, lol.

I read this back and forth and I'm like... who is right? I'm a fence sitter so you don't see me backing either guy/girl.
Posted by: DanC, June 4th, 2015, 3:32pm; Reply: 405

Quoted from Max
I don't know who to listen to, lol.

I read this back and forth and I'm like... who is right? I'm a fence sitter so you don't see me backing either guy/girl.


Max,
     My advice is to listen to all of it.  What you APPLY is up to you.  You know the scope of your script.  However, if 5 people tell you something is bad and 1 or 2, or none say it's good or no comment on it at all, then I'd at least look at it.

Jeff and Dustin may or may not have credits, but, that doesn't really matter.  A sound comment can come from anyone.  Remember when I told you and Steve that no matter how new we are to writing or screenwriting, we all have something to contribute?

That's true.  It doesn't matter what Jeff, Pia, Libby etc have sold.  What matters is how sound the advice is.  How good is the advice?  How does it work with your scope?  

For ex, Libby wanted me to alter the end to Evil Genesis, but, that went against how I had set up the entire story.  But, that doesn't discount all the other advice for the rest of the script.  

Your story is your story.  You know that story inside and out.  I'm good at picking out plot holes and things that common sense characters wouldn't do.  I need guys like Jeff, Dustin, Libby, Pia etc to help me get my story up to snuff.  Jeff might hate asides.  And that's his right.  

Don't look at writing as 100% right or wrong.  Except for formatting, everything else is open.  Personally, I think an aside here and there is fine.  I think if every other line has an aside, well, that's bad.  If there are too many unfilmables or too many things that a director would be hard to get or find, that's bad too.

I have had the (I guess) unique history of having some prose writing (short stories, novels etc) and screenplays, and I have some acting knowledge (from classes in grad school) and some filmmaking studies (also from grad school) so, I've been on every side possible for the film world.

If you write "A huge white guy with purple hair in a mohawk, green eyes, pale as snow, with expensive sun glasses, AC/DC shirt, spiky wrist band, new apple smart watch, etc, no one will read that much.  It's too hard to find someone to match that description.

Same with your places.  If you write the apartment has to have 5 rooms, bathroom, kitchen, bedroom, living room, and laundry room.  In each room is...
That too is too hard for someone to find.  Unless you are writing for a series or a big movie, people have to find places that already exist.  Very few have the cash to create a set.  

So, when Jeff or Dustin or others talk about overwriting something, I'd listen.  

Ultimately, the choice is up to you.  Maybe your the next QT and Pulp Fiction (which I didn't care for btw, i didn't care that it didn't have a linear plot, for my money, Highlander was far more interesting).  Or you could be Alex Parros.  Who you ask?  Exactly.  He was a kid in my class who had to have things done his way.  He finally gave up and got a 9-5 job b/c no one shared his vision.
Posted by: Max, June 4th, 2015, 3:39pm; Reply: 406
Libby is one cool ass chick bruh.

And yeah cheers Dan, that's a good way to look at things... my idea of screenwriting is, just be clear enough as to what happens on screen, if people can visualize what you write then that's half the battle over.
Posted by: Reef Dreamer, June 4th, 2015, 3:44pm; Reply: 407
Ah ha, the fog of war.

I don't always agree with Jeff, indeed most the time we are on polar opposites, but he is a good writer. Why would I ignore that. His Caribbean island feature script is very sound work and I liked 'it's a wonderful life'. In the OWC's Jeff usually hates my scripts, and it annoys me, but here's the point to remember ...

...That's my problem.

Don't blame the reader.

I may not share the response, and the 'I'm out' on the first page' is a bad habit of his, but we just have to take all feedback and distill.

As the wise Yoda said, 'there is no why', and accordingly there is no perfect, or certain way.

Just remember the OWC is a great, intense melting pot of learning.

Dip in as you wish.
Posted by: Max, June 4th, 2015, 3:45pm; Reply: 408
Btw Reef Dreamer, is that you in the pic? Looks like you're in the middle of nowhere with a GPS or something.
Posted by: DanC, June 4th, 2015, 3:48pm; Reply: 409

Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Ah ha, the fog of war.

I don't always agree with Jeff, indeed most the time we are on polar opposites, but he is a good writer. Why would I ignore that. His Caribbean island feature script is very sound work and I liked 'it's a wonderful life'. In the OWC's Jeff usually hates my scripts, and it annoys me, but here's the point to remember ...

...That's my problem.

Don't blame the reader.

I may not share the response, and the 'I'm out' on the first page' is a bad habit of his, but we just have to take all feedback and distill.

As the wise Yoda said, 'there is no why', and accordingly there is no perfect, or certain way.

Just remember the OWC is a great, intense melting pot of learning.

Dip in as you wish.


I agree it's annoying when Jeff says "I'm out" on page 1.  Because the story might be fantastic and he wouldn't know it.

But, the way I look at it, the person who reads my script when I send it in to be read for a contest or for a chance to sell/option it might be as much a stickler for the same stuff Jeff is and toss it aside.  Like I have said, I'd rather hear it here on this site where I can make the necessary changes then have it tossed aside and never know why, unless I pay hundreds of dollars to find out why.

Jeff is free, for now ;) ;)  ;)

Dan
Posted by: Reef Dreamer, June 4th, 2015, 4:02pm; Reply: 410

Quoted from Max
Btw Reef Dreamer, is that you in the pic? Looks like you're in the middle of nowhere with a GPS or something.


It is.

Just our local sand dunes and me caught on my phone .

I live on an island 9 miles by 6 - beautiful, but difficult to be lost  :D
Posted by: Stumpzian, June 4th, 2015, 4:11pm; Reply: 411
My opinion -- The "I'm out" technique in an OWC is poor form. We're supposed to read as many entries as we can, comment, and vote. Yes, reading 36 scripts is exhausting, but that's the deal. Reading just a page or two makes the reviewer sound as if he or she is just looking for an excuse to move on. To me, this approach violates the spirit of the exercise. If you've entered, you should read the entire script.

As for bailing on a non-OWC script, that's perfectly fine.

Henry
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 4th, 2015, 4:53pm; Reply: 412

Quoted from Stumpzian
My opinion -- The "I'm out" technique in an OWC is poor form. We're supposed to read as many entries as we can, comment, and vote. Yes, reading 36 scripts is exhausting, but that's the deal. Reading just a page or two makes the reviewer sound as if he or she is just looking for an excuse to move on. To me, this approach violates the spirit of the exercise. If you've entered, you should read the entire script.

As for bailing on a non-OWC script, that's perfectly fine.Henry


I could quote and respond to every single post, really, but I don't have the time or energy, so I'll just respond to Henry in a way I think will make sense to everyone, but then again, most of my replies or even feedback fall on deaf ears, so we'll see.

3 ways to look at this, IMO.

1)  OWC's offer a plethora of scripts to read and digest, much like a buffet in Vegas.  When you sit down with your first plate of food, should you really eat everything on it, when you know you're not impressed with something?  Not me, man.  In fact, if I don't like any of the items I chose, I'll have 1 bite each, and leave my plate for the waitor to remove and go back and start all over again, knowing that I'll find a bunch of stuff I really will enjoy, or at least won't dislike.

2)  In reality, very, very few peeps/writers read every single script, let alone even open the majority up.  You can go through this OWC or any OWC and see how few posts many of the writers provide, which to me is very sad and frustrating...even infuriating.

Comments of I liked it, I didn't like it, writing was ok, etc, do very little to nothing to help the writer.

Whether I read the first passage, the first page, or the whole damn script, the writer is going to know my feelings, as well as problem areas, and usually, ways to fix those problem areas, and if I did bail, exactly why and where.

3)  Peeps can say over and over that no one can know whether or not a script is good unless they read the entire thing.  To that, I simply call BullShit!  For me, it's pretty easy to know right out of the gate, but many times, even when I know what I'm reading isn't any good, as long as it's not terrible, or written in a way I'm not going to continue on, I'll read on and provide feedback more on the plot/story/etc, then on a line by line problem listing.

I'll also bet anyone that wants to put a bottle of Jagie on the table that my feedback almost always contains something unique that the writer didn't hear anywhere else, and therein lay the little gems - now, whether or not the writer agrees with me or wants to listen to me, is up to them, each and every time.  And when they say, but no one else mentioned that, so I guess I don't need to worry about it, I say, think again, bro...I wuoldn't point it out if I wasn't trying to help you.

I see things that no one else will see...or bring up. If that's not worth the price of admission, I don't know what really is.
Posted by: Stumpzian, June 4th, 2015, 5:08pm; Reply: 413
Fair enough. You certainly have a right to do it that way. And, even though you bailed on mine, you did point out  a format mistake I made (I knew better, too).


Quoted from Dreamscale

In reality, very, very few peeps/writers read every single script, let alone even open the majority up.  


I didn't know this.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 4th, 2015, 5:25pm; Reply: 414
Only 2 OWC entries have 36 or more posts, and the only reason these do is because someone posted multiple times - the leader in posts has 40 and I know the writer himself posted numerous times to pad his posts and views.

One entry only has 18 posts, meaning 1/2 of the 36 writers didn't say a word on it.
Posted by: DanC, June 4th, 2015, 6:41pm; Reply: 415

Quoted from Dreamscale
Only 2 OWC entries have 36 or more posts, and the only reason these do is because someone posted multiple times - the leader in posts has 40 and I know the writer himself posted numerous times to pad his posts and views.

One entry only has 18 posts, meaning 1/2 of the 36 writers didn't say a word on it.


I think Jeff has a fair point here.  I know I reviewed all 35, but, I did it in contest fashion, not in critique fashion.  I know I gave a 1 or 2 sentence of why I did or didn't like something, but, for those who know me, when I review a script, I take my time and really dive into it.

We should all review each script, but, it is hard.  Time is a factor.  Next OWC I will take my time with each script.  I have the time, but, most don't.  

So, I can see Jeff's POV.  It is hard and if you don't like the first few pages, I can see why you don't want to finish it.  But, on the other hand, a story can be fantastic, but, the technique can be terrible.  The goal is to get the story up to a point where people do read it.
Posted by: JSimon, June 4th, 2015, 6:55pm; Reply: 416
I reviewed 25 scripts. I've done quite a few OWCs in the past and I know that a script will not get 25 reviews, and some of the reviews it does get will be a sentence or two. So I put in much more than I get out.

After the reveal, if I missed someone's script where the writer gave useful notes on my own, I will read their script. I never leave a debt hanging and I consider that a debt.

The rest of Jeff's comment is pure fantasy and envy. He's had a rough day. The Jeagers will go down good tonight.
Posted by: rendevous, June 4th, 2015, 7:03pm; Reply: 417

Quoted from DanC


We should all review each script, but, it is hard.  Time is a factor.  Next OWC I will take my time with each script.  I have the time, but, most don't.  


I disagree. I think you should read all the scripts if you enter the OWC. But I see little point in posting a review for every script, particularly if you have nothing positive to say, or original for that matter.

Echoing views that have already been said a dozen times is pointless. I'm not going to post a wholly negative review. I think it's better to say nothing.

R
Posted by: DanC, June 4th, 2015, 9:24pm; Reply: 418

Quoted from rendevous


I disagree. I think you should read all the scripts if you enter the OWC. But I see little point in posting a review for every script, particularly if you have nothing positive to say, or original for that matter.

Echoing views that have already been said a dozen times is pointless. I'm not going to post a wholly negative review. I think it's better to say nothing.

R


I am not sure what you disagree to.  I did read and post something to each story.  Sorry if I didn't get that impression.  What I didn't do was give an in-depth review of the story.  I thought I was supposed to just rate it for the future "what was the best."

Posted by: Grandma Bear, June 4th, 2015, 9:44pm; Reply: 419
I'm not sure how many I've read. 25 maybe? I probably won't have time to read anymore. Maybe one, then I'll send Don my vote tomorrow. When the writers are revealed, I will read the ones I missed if the writers read during the OWC or are active members. There are always a few turkeys that never read anything. I won't bother with them. My script has 21 reads so far, I think.  All in all, a good rough and tumble as always. Might be awhile before I do another one though. ;D
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), June 4th, 2015, 9:49pm; Reply: 420

Quoted from JSimon
I reviewed 25 scripts. I've done quite a few OWCs in the past and I know that a script will not get 25 reviews, and some of the reviews it does get will be a sentence or two. So I put in much more than I get out.

After the reveal, if I missed someone's script where the writer gave useful notes on my own, I will read their script. I never leave a debt hanging and I consider that a debt.

The rest of Jeff's comment is pure fantasy and envy. He's had a rough day. The Jeagers will go down good tonight.


Kevin, what you talking 'bout, Willis?  You got the most reads and close to the most views, but of course that's skewed as you jumped in on your own thread to defend comments you didn't want to shade your amazing work.

Which of my comments are "pure fantasy"  "Envy"?  Really?  What am I envious of, bro?  Seriously...please do tell.  Why do you say I've had a rough day?  I haven't at all, actually.  It was a good day.  And finally, coming from an ex-bartender, why can't you learn to spell Jagermeister?  Or, simply, Jager?  Really?  C'mon, bro...get with it.

Posted by: Pale Yellow, June 4th, 2015, 10:07pm; Reply: 421
Sorry guys...only read 15 ...if you need a read pm me. I've been busy. I won't enter anymore, because it's just too much work to read them all now that I'm working full time and trying to write in the midnight hour.

I'd like to possibly film some of these so I will read them all but what's the point of commenting after a script already has like 20 reviews unless you have something new to bring to the table??
Posted by: rendevous, June 5th, 2015, 12:28am; Reply: 422

Quoted from DanC


I am not sure what you disagree to.  I did read and post something to each story.  Sorry if I didn't get that impression.  What I didn't do was give an in-depth review of the story.  I thought I was supposed to just rate it for the future "what was the best."



I disagreed with the bit where you said you should review every script. For the reasons I stated. Like Pale Yellow says, what is the point of writing a review that doesn't say anything new when there's twenty there already?

You should read them all. That's the whole idea. This can be difficult when there's so many. But they're short, and there's plenty of time. Nobody's making anyone do anything though. It relies on trust. You should comment on them too. But only if you've something interesting or helpful to say. You can give your opinion, but there should be a bit more than just that.

There's little point in reading half a page then spending far longer writing a wholly negative review that offers no insight or help. That's what Twitter is used for.

Now, I'm off to feed the goat. He's been bleating. I told him he shouldn't have eaten that sofa.

R
Posted by: Reef Dreamer, June 5th, 2015, 3:03am; Reply: 423
I feed my goats - yes I have them, indeed another four arriving this weekend - ivy. And other weeds.

They love it.

Genius animals. And cuddly  :K)
Posted by: rendevous, June 5th, 2015, 3:13am; Reply: 424
A fellow herder. Good work, fella.

Now, to keep this on topic... there's a lot of criticism about. It's a doddle to criticise, any fool can do it. And often do. But not enough of it is constructive.

And there's not enough hircine type characters in scripts.

R
Posted by: DustinBowcot (Guest), June 5th, 2015, 3:45am; Reply: 425
It's just one story out of millions. One story, quickly thrown together based on certain requirements. Are most of the stories in this OWC utter, utter shit? Yes they are. As is to be expected. We can't be amazing all of the time.

I think the reviews doled out are mostly fair. I say what I genuinely feel and I honestly feel that that is the best thing I can do for somebody. To get my honest reaction. Otherwise, it's almost like I'm wronging them. If you're somebody I like, the very least you deserve is the truth. I may be a dick, or completely wrong sometimes, but I do try to be genuine.
Posted by: DanC, June 5th, 2015, 4:48am; Reply: 426

Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I feed my goats - yes I have them, indeed another four arriving this weekend - ivy. And other weeds.

They love it.

Genius animals. And cuddly  :K)


I'd never attempt to get between a man and his goat... :'(
Posted by: DanC, June 5th, 2015, 4:52am; Reply: 427

Quoted from DustinBowcot
It's just one story out of millions. One story, quickly thrown together based on certain requirements. Are most of the stories in this OWC utter, utter shit? Yes they are. As is to be expected. We can't be amazing all of the time.

I think the reviews doled out are mostly fair. I say what I genuinely feel and I honestly feel that that is the best thing I can do for somebody. To get my honest reaction. Otherwise, it's almost like I'm wronging them. If you're somebody I like, the very least you deserve is the truth. I may be a dick, or completely wrong sometimes, but I do try to be genuine.


I know I don't mind bad reviews (once I pick my ego off the ground) b/c I'd rather hear it here then have it tossed, and most everyone from the reviews that I read has been pretty good and even nice about the reviews.

I'm sure we all have our favs and least liked, and that's okay.  

I think the biggest thing that each of us should remember is that behind every story is a human being who tried.  Even if you think it's a pisser, it might not be.  Someone might have thought they did something pretty good.  

Honestly, what I'd recommend is, give a first review as if you didn't have any personal feelings (like a pisser) and assume it's a new writer, and then, later on, if you think it's a pisser, then come back in when someone says something nice for no reason, and then go to town.  That way, if a conversation breaks out, it is different.  

On my story, once a person reviewed it, if they got into a discussion, it didn't bother me as much if they really hated the story.  maybe i'm odd...
Posted by: MarkRenshaw, June 5th, 2015, 9:39am; Reply: 428
I had a boring afternoon at work, this thread made it interesting, so thanks for the entertainment!

My own personal views on reviews is if you are going to comment (in the OWC especially) you should always try to offer some constructive criticism, even if you do bail on the first couple of pages. I’ve not always managed to do that myself but I believe I have in the most part. That’s a key point though, I BELIEVE I’ve been fair and constructive but the writer may think otherwise and still be hurt by what I have to say.

I read and reviewed every one, the only one I bailed on was the one that had no elevator in it at all. Do I expect 35 reviews in return? No. If you want to review my stuff, great, but I won’t chase anyone or call in any debts. I had time at work to review these so, in effect, I was being paid to do it lol. If I was busy, it would have been different.

I also believe you shouldn’t avoid a script in these challenges because you’ve read other people’s comments and think it’s not worth reading. I avoid comments until I’ve read the script to try and have an unbiased view. But that’s me, that’s what I choose to do. Everyone else can do it their way because all of the reviews/comments on here are free of charge and free to take on board, or dismiss, at your leisure.

As for what makes a ‘proper’ screenplay – that debate has been going on since screenplays were invented and will never stop. If you can convey your story across to the person reading it, they like it and they want to produce it; congratulations! You’ve written a screenplay, whether you’ve written it ‘properly’ or not. Writing it in a certain style and following a certain formula just increases your chances of someone reading it all the way through, and understanding the story you are attempting to convey. Liking it is an entirely different matter and is very much personal opinion based.

-Mark
Posted by: SteveDiablo, June 5th, 2015, 10:48pm; Reply: 429
I'll apologize for my earlier "rant" in this thread, but I still believe in the "say what you see" theory.

If that makes me a crap reader, I'm a crap reader.

I'm out of this awesome challenge because I need to learn many things, and I don't mean to hurt people's feelings at all or anything like that, no way. I just think, or thought, that you read and say what you feel about that particular script. If you leave early, say why, try adding a helpful hint, even If you ( me) has never written a script before.
I think I tried to do that, but it's quite hard to give advice to someone who is better than you... which is about everyone who entered.
You have to then cover your tracks because it is a secret, and try and pretend like you know what you are talking about.
It's been bizarre, fun, really interesting, and pretty great.

I have not read the entirety, but I don't want to antagonize or hurt people's feelings. That is the last thing I want to do.

All the best to everyone who entered this fuckin crazy ass challenge. LOL.

Posted by: Warren, June 20th, 2016, 5:20am; Reply: 430
I think I struggle with this one.

If it's a good script, the comments are easy. If it's mid range, it's not hard to give constructive criticism.

What do you do about the God awful ones, we've all read them. Do you just not comment? Tell the person to bin it and start again?

For me personally, if I wrote something like that, I wouldn't want it sugar coated. What's the point? I'll take the ego hit, lick my wounds and start again.
Posted by: eldave1, June 20th, 2016, 10:52am; Reply: 431

Quoted from Warren
I think I struggle with this one.

If it's a good script, the comments are easy. If it's mid range, it's not hard to give constructive criticism.

What do you do about the God awful ones, we've all read them. Do you just not comment? Tell the person to bin it and start again?

For me personally, if I wrote something like that, I wouldn't want it sugar coated. What's the point? I'll take the ego hit, lick my wounds and start again.


Interesting question, Warren:

Other than OWCs, where I will comment on everything I read, sometimes I will just bail on a script without comments because I feel - right or wrong - that the writer is so far away from being there that it doesn't really matter what I say.

But most times I think you can find something to say that is helpful and honestl but not hurtful.  
Posted by: Warren, June 20th, 2016, 5:35pm; Reply: 432
Thanks, eldave.

Will try keep that in mind the next time I'm fighting my way through a shocker.
Posted by: Female Gaze, February 8th, 2017, 12:23am; Reply: 433
This is my new FAVORITE section on here. I will be reading these comments every night before bed.
Posted by: Zack, February 8th, 2017, 12:56am; Reply: 434

Quoted from Warren


Will try keep that in mind the next time I'm fighting my way through a shocker.


This made me choke on my Dr. Pepper! Lol  :D

~Zack~
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