First and formost, I'm not racist. Now, I'm currently writing a thriller/horror where the atmosphere is very racist. Will this be accepted by readers here? i don't want to labled a jerk or anything. There are some scenes that were quite uncomfortable to write, so I know that they may offend some people. Please, I need some advice.

~Zack~

It's no different than writing anything else.  You've written numerous scripts where people have killed others.  Does that make you a killer?  Probably not.

I just don't want people to think i'm racist or anything.

~Zack~

I wouldn't worry about it.  I think it would be pretty foolish to assume that someone's personality is completely made up of what they write about.

Just write it, Zack.

Having your characters being racists is perfectly fine. I don't recall you ever having made any racist remarks so I don't think anyone will view you as a racist. And if they do - fuck 'em. After all - it's just a story.


Rob

Thanks guys. That's some weight off my shoulders.

~Zack~

Every film in the history of IMDb has a topic like "THIS MOVIE IS RACIST!" It doesn't mean anything. There's always gonna be a some guy out there who's gonna think something is "racist".

Like for Monster House there was a guy who thought the movie was racist because the main characters say they don't like "mexican food"...

So don't pay attention. Write your characters the way you want them. Look at a movie like Remember the Titans. Plenty of racist dialogue, as far as I remember. Is that movie racist? Is the screenwriter? No.

Context matters. Which is something a lot of those who start racial topics on IMdb forget.

Conversation with oft-produced b-movie screenwriter:

Him: "I'm worried about the second act.  It's the section with the racist guy and the teenagers."
Me: "In your last two scripts you've killed something like forty people."
His Wife: "And all of them were women."
Me: "Everyone knows you're a misogynist not a racist."
Him: "Oh, okay."

One of the characters in my script is extremly racist, but like you said. Context matters.

~Zack~

Quoted from Death Monkey ELook at a movie like Remember the Titans. Plenty of racist dialogue, as far as I remember. Is that movie racist? Is the screenwriter? No.

Let's be honest here, that movie was made by Disney and to my knowledge never had any "bad" racial dialogue.

Basically the use of the word nobody dares mention is where they get touchy but like a comedian has said if they don't want us to say it they shouldn't use it so freely in public and on television.

The word in my opinion has lost it's racial meaning.

Clerks has a racial slur or two in it and American History X and both of those films were hailed widely as good films. One even was nominated for an Oscar.

I think it's the execution of the material. I remember a script on here called "Skullfuck: Battlefrogs" or something like that in which Bert hated and a bunch of people were offended by it's blatant racial dialogue (In the descriptions)

Do it right and you're fine but do it wrong and you end up being the bad guy. Remember I wrote a script with gay characters that gave Kevan an enema... that's powerful subject matter but it fits the script.

Here's my opinion;

As long as you don't make him a hero or set him up as messiah figure or anything, it should be OK...If he's vile, nasty, hatefull and gets weed whacked in the kisser in the end, that should work...If he comes out smelling like roses, gets the girl and everyone praises his hatefull attitude and wish that everyone were like him...not so much.

Joe

Quoted from Old Time Wesley Remember I wrote a script with gay characters that gave Kevan an enema... that's powerful subject matter but it fits the script.

Funny you should mention that script, because that's exactly what I was thinking of when I was replying yesterday.

I remember the Battlefrogs script too, particularly for one line that made me crack up not only at how bad it was, but how vividly I could picture it in my own sick mind.

Quoted from Battlefrogs: The Ultimate Shit Show ...and some dude in kung fu pajamas who does Blizzard Kung Fu and kills some guy with a backbreaker.

Don't ask why I laughed.  Probably because he killed a guy with a backbreaker.

At least it wasn't a racist joke.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley I remember a script on here called "Skullfuck: Battlefrogs" or something like that in which Bert hated and a bunch of people were offended by it's blatant racial dialogue (In the descriptions)

That's a good point you brought up here, Wes. The dialogue (and thereby the characters) can be all racist, and no one would ever point a finger at the writer - but if the descriptions are written with a racial slur then that's a totally different ballgame and the writer would certainly be open to attacks.

Zack, if you have any questions about how NOT to do it, then go read The Turner Diaries. Actually I'd be surprised if anybody are able to finish that book - I wasn't.

I think if you avoid being racist in the actions and if in the story you give race an equal amount of respect as you do disrespect (or perhaps even more respect), then you should be ok.  Most likely someone will complain about it no matter what you do, so just be prepared for that.

Quoted from Shelton Funny you should mention that script, because that's exactly what I was thinking of when I was replying yesterday. I remember the Battlefrogs script too, particularly for one line that made me crack up not only at how bad it was, but how vividly I could picture it in my own sick mind. Don't ask why I laughed.  Probably because he killed a guy with a backbreaker. At least it wasn't a racist joke.

I think you come to a point where you have to be able to laugh about a subject. Racism has been used to no end. I work with a guy who is Polish and everyone calls him Polak (Which is a slur) but he doesn't mind being called that. We had that discussion before while we weren't working.

I just can't use that whole enema thing in any other aspect of life because it never comes up so I'll mention it whenever possible. Probably the best reply to a script ever came from the guy who steals scripts from unsuspecting naive writers.

Kung Fu Pajamas is funny but the writer never came around, right? If that is the case I think it's a fake script.

I was actually working on a short about two PI's (both white). One of them, Bobby, is the old mentor who keeps cracking black jokes. The scene I'm about to share with you picks up while Bobby and Tom (the trainee) is doing surveillance. This is how I wrote it:

Quoted Text BOBBY You were about to ask me something. TOM That’s right, um, when he comes out, then what? We, like, take his picture or something? BOBBY Take a picture? I’m gonna take a picture of a black guy at night? What the fuck is that picture gonna show? Eyes and teeth? TOM Man, that’s kinda racist. BOBBY Hey hey, I have nothing against black people. I really don’t. As a matter of fact, I think we have a black guy in the family tree. TOM Really? BOBBY Yeah. And if I’m not mistaken -- (scratches his chin) -- he’s still hanging there. Bobby burst out into laughter. Tom forces a smile, Bobby notice. BOBBY It’s a joke for Christ’s sake. TOM Yeah. But still, you know? BOBBY (waves him off) Forget about it. And later... DARRYL JACKSON (40’s), black and impeccably groomed, closes the door behind him and tiptoes across the driveway towards his Toyota. BOBBY (V.O.) Damn. That is one black fella. He’s so black I’ll bet he bleeds coffee. TOM (V.O.) Okay, the black jokes are starting to bug me, Bobby. BOBBY (V.O.) I’m just bullshitting.

I dunno - sure it has a racial tone, but is still kinda funny.

Quoted from Blakkwolfe Here's my opinion; As long as you don't make him a hero or set him up as messiah figure or anything, it should be OK

There racist dude is definetly a bad guy... but the black guy in the script isn't exactly a good guy.

~Zack~

Quoted from sniper I was actually working on a short about two PI's (both white). One of them, Bobby, is the old mentor who keeps cracking black jokes. The scene I'm about to share with you picks up while Bobby and Tom (the trainee) is doing surveillance. This is how I wrote it: I dunno - sure it has a racial tone, but is still kinda funny.

It IS funny! But no doubt some people will take offense. Which makes it "controversial".  ;D

Reminds me of that south park episode with the sports commentator who keeps making jew jokes during the football game and his colleague who tries to keep him in line on air.

"Holy cow! I haven't seen a Jew run that fast since Poland 1938!
- DUDE! That is NOT cool!"

Quoted from Old Time Wesley Let's be honest here, that movie was made by Disney and to my knowledge never had any "bad" racial dialogue. Basically the use of the word nobody dares mention is where they get touchy but like a comedian has said if they don't want us to say it they shouldn't use it so freely in public and on television. The word in my opinion has lost it's racial meaning. Clerks has a racial slur or two in it and American History X and both of those films were hailed widely as good films. One even was nominated for an Oscar. I think it's the execution of the material. I remember a script on here called "Skullfuck: Battlefrogs" or something like that in which Bert hated and a bunch of people were offended by it's blatant racial dialogue (In the descriptions) Do it right and you're fine but do it wrong and you end up being the bad guy. Remember I wrote a script with gay characters that gave Kevan an enema... that's powerful subject matter but it fits the script.

yeah, you may be right. Like you say there are plenty of films that use the N-word (God, I hate euphemisms...). Think about Huck Finn and his buddy N-word Jim?

I actually have the Battle Frogs script on my stationary, lap top and external hard drives. I think it's the single funniest thing I have EVER read in my entire life. Nothing even comes close. But I understand why people would get offended. It was racist (the author's name was Dave Hitler, so that sets the tone) mysogynist, and just plain stupid. Still...incredibly funny in places.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley Basically the use of the word nobody dares mention is where they get touchy but like a comedian has said if they don't want us to say it they shouldn't use it so freely in public and on television.

Wesley, don't take this the wrong way man but what you wrote above could be seen as being worse than writing a character who says the word, when you say "they" are you referring to black people or just people who dislike the N word in general?  

In my opinion it is never the words you use but the intent behind them, I myself do not like it being used by anyone in a hateful manner but have no issue with Samuel L Jackson using it in a friendly way. Same as sexual references, If someone verbally attacked a gay person in a bar calling him names such as faggot and queer I would be very offended by his behavior and would have no hesitation is telling him so - but I call my friends those names all the time in jest whenever they do anything that seems particularly stereotypically gay. Words are nowhere near as important as the context they are used in.

Quoted from Murphy Wesley, don't take this the wrong way man but what you wrote above could be seen as being worse than writing a character who says the word, when you say "they" are you referring to black people or just people who dislike the N word in general?   In my opinion it is never the words you use but the intent behind them, I myself do not like it being used by anyone in a hateful manner but have no issue with Samuel L Jackson using it in a friendly way. Same as sexual references, If someone verbally attacked a gay person in a bar calling him names such as faggot and queer I would be very offended by his behavior and would have no hesitation is telling him so - but I call my friends those names all the time in jest whenever they do anything that seems particularly stereotypically gay. Words are nowhere near as important as the context they are used in.

What if Ed norton used the N-word in a friendly way? I actually think the "us and them" mentality is strengthened by saying that certain words are okay for some races to say but for others. Can I use the word cracker, because I'm white?

But it's actually interesting. You didn't hesitate to write the words queer or faggot here. You use it in a sober context, but would anyone here write N-word in the same context?

Quoted from Death Monkey but would anyone here write N-word in the same context?

My nigga.

BOOM!

Quoted from sniper My nigga. BOOM!

Bah! That's not the real N-word. That's what Chris Tucker calls everyone in Rush Hour.

I wondered who it was going to be!! ;-)

No Death Monkey, I am not saying that there are words that should only be used by black people or white people I think it is fine for a white person to use the word Nigga if the context it was used in was not to offend anybody. Same as my example it is fine for straight people to use names such as faggot if they are not using them in a hurtful way. But you have to be carful that people actually do understand the meaning behind your words and this is much harder to do so sometimes it is best to avoid them - this is how wars have started!

My point was that people focus on the words far too much and not on the way they are said, the actual words used are such a small aspect of any communication that he groups of people claiming to represent minority groups and gay's etc.. are totally missing the point when it comes to banning words and clambering for radio DJ's to be sacked for saying something that was meant with no malice at all. BUT this is not the same as saying "Well they use the word so why can't I?".

As someone has said your characters can be racist and/or homophobic as long as your own descriptions are not.

Quoted from Death Monkey What if Ed Norton used the N-word in a friendly way?

Ed Norton is as black as the Ace of Spades.  That skin of his is just covered in makeup.

SOUND OF PENNY DROPPING

Now that makes a lot of sense.

Quoted from Murphy My point was that people focus on the words far too much and not on the way they are said, the actual words used are such a small aspect of any communication that he groups of people claiming to represent minority groups and gay's etc.. are totally missing the point when it comes to banning words and clambering for radio DJ's to be sacked for saying something that was meant with no malice at all.

I agree. Liberalism has its good sides sure but it's gotten to a point where everyone is so damn affraid of being viewed as a racist, homophobe, antisemitic or chauvinist that everything is being sugar coated in a fat layer of political correctness. And I think that that actually worsens the situation cos' people keep their shit bottled up out of fear that they could be viewed as controversial. It's shame cos' controversy rocks! It inspires.

Quoted from Murphy I wondered who it was going to be!! ;-) No Death Monkey, I am not saying that there are words that should only be used by black people or white people I think it is fine for a white person to use the word Nigga if the context it was used in was not to offend anybody. Same as my example it is fine for straight people to use names such as faggot if they are not using them in a hurtful way. But you have to be carful that people actually do understand the meaning behind your words and this is much harder to do so sometimes it is best to avoid them - this is how wars have started! My point was that people focus on the words far too much and not on the way they are said, the actual words used are such a small aspect of any communication that he groups of people claiming to represent minority groups and gay's etc.. are totally missing the point when it comes to banning words and clambering for radio DJ's to be sacked for saying something that was meant with no malice at all. BUT this is not the same as saying "Well they use the word so why can't I?". As someone has said your characters can be racist and/or homophobic as long as your own descriptions are not.

No, I didn't mean to imply that was your position. It was just a general observation. I agree with you completely. It's like that episode of South Park where Randy's on Wheel of Fortune and the category is "People who annoy you" and the letters are N _ GGERS. Randy, after much deliberation, exclaims "niggers" and we then see the word is actually "naggers". Anyways the point of the episode is that no matter the context, the N-word might hurt black people, and that's important to understand, but saying the N-word doesn't necessarily make you racist.

I am a huge South Park fan and I laughed my tits off the first time I saw that!, now I piss myself just watching the start of it.  My wife thought it was offensive and did not understand why I was laughing so much.

I was watching an old episode yesterday and thought about writing an episode for a laugh, someone must of had a go at that by now, anyone got one stashed away in a drawer somewhere?

South Park is the last bastion of free (or at least attempted) speech in the known world. It's a matter of censorship. A writer shouldn't be afraid to write something for fear of being offensive (Sometimes I write just to BE offensive...sometimes it works, other times it goes down in flames like last month's MP entry) but at the end of the day, it is still a creative, artistic pursuit and it's frustrating when that muse has to be restrained because it might offend somebody, such as the printing of a certain cartoon (with murderous consequences)...The line has been drawn, and we are no longer free.

Quoted from Blakkwolfe South Park is the last bastion of free (or at least attempted) speech in the known world. It's a matter of censorship. A writer shouldn't be afraid to write something for fear of being offensive (Sometimes I write just to BE offensive...sometimes it works, other times it goes down in flames like last month's MP entry) but at the end of the day, it is still a creative, artistic pursuit and it's frustrating when that muse has to be restrained because it might offend somebody, such as the printing of a certain cartoon (with murderous consequences)...The line has been drawn, and we are no longer free.

I agree with you 100% Blakkwolfe and I do not think there is any such thing as Free Speech left in the world, even the US which proclaims itself to be the land of the free is no such thing anymore. But I do feel strongly that with the right to free speech should also come responsibility and there are some things that are better left unsaid, even when something is the truth. We would live in a far worse society if people said exactly what they wanted all the time especially if the sole intent is to offend someone. I am not talking about the cartoons of Mohammed or South Park here, none of which should cause offense, I have no time for anyone without a sense of humor! But that is not to say I do not believe there should be boundaries, where they should be I do not know. But it comes back my point that it is not the words nor the actions that people should be offended by but the intent behind them, If Cartman calls Token a "Black Idiot" then it is funny because we know Cartman is an ignorant, racist, stupid boy (of course rather cool with it!) But if someone who should knows better called Token the same then it takes on a whole different, unpleasant meaning which in real life is unacceptable and in a screenplay would make your character undesirable and you should make him just as unacceptable within the world that your story takes place.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley I think it's the execution of the material. I remember a script on here called "Skullfuck: Battlefrogs" or something like that in which Bert hated and a bunch of people were offended by it's blatant racial dialogue (In the descriptions)

Haha -- I remember that one.  My main problem is that I was embarrassed to have it hosted on these boards.  Whether the script was just one big goof or an honest attempt at comedy was never determined for sure.

Racist or no?  You decide:

Quoted from Battlefrogs, slightly edited MONTAGE: Battle Frogs killing black kids. Battle Frogs killing black dudes. Battle Frogs raping hot black babes. Battle Frogs raping ugly black babes. Battle Frogs killing all the raped black babes. Tearing through the street in a chopped humvee, with a machine gun mounted to the back, shooting up n*****s just like in Black Hawk Down, the best movie ever made (about shooting n*****s.)

If the boards can survive that, Zack, I suspect they can survive just about anything that you can dish out...

Quoted from Murphy I do not think there is any such thing as Free Speech left in the world...

The script is still here, although the thread is (thankfully) locked.  That was Don's call -- and say what you might about deleted posts -- he is a true champion of free speech around here.  I don't think that gets acknowledged enough, sometimes.  We get a good bit of leeway in this little playground Don has set up for us.
  
I bitched plenty about his decision to leave that script up, but I still respect him for it.

Quoted from Murphy I agree with you 100% Blakkwolfe and I do not think there is any such thing as Free Speech left in the world, even the US which proclaims itself to be the land of the free is no such thing anymore. But I do feel strongly that with the right to free speech should also come responsibility and there are some things that are better left unsaid, even when something is the truth. We would live in a far worse society if people said exactly what they wanted all the time especially if the sole intent is to offend someone. I am not talking about the cartoons of Mohammed or South Park here, none of which should cause offense, I have no time for anyone without a sense of humor! But that is not to say I do not believe there should be boundaries, where they should be I do not know. But it comes back my point that it is not the words nor the actions that people should be offended by but the intent behind them, If Cartman calls Token a "Black Idiot" then it is funny because we know Cartman is an ignorant, racist, stupid boy (of course rather cool with it!) But if someone who should knows better called Token the same then it takes on a whole different, unpleasant meaning which in real life is unacceptable and in a screenplay would make your character undesirable and you should make him just as unacceptable within the world that your story takes place.

Yeah, I think the whole point of free speech is that it leaves the moral responsibility with the individual, not the state. You should 100% be able to say whatever you want, even racist things, without having to fear being put in jail, but if you do, then it's gonna have other kinds of consequences. Like people will think you're a jerk and you will be banned from your favorite screenwriting forum.

South park is my favorite animated show of all time, exactly because they take responsibility and don't play favorites. "Either it's all okay, or none of it is". Yeah, I have a special kinda love for the Cartoon Wars episodes, being Danish and all.  :)

My feelings are that it is perfectly fine to have racist characters in the script, but not to have the script itself being racist in tone.

If the story is merely a hack and slash thriller featuring a white guy running round killing "coons" and the story glorifies him, then obviously it's going to be offensive.

Something that stands out in the majority of scripts that I receive from American writers, that happen to have people from different races in them, is that the conversations taking place between them almost always contain conflict based over race.

A white guy walks into a room and the black guy will call him cracker, the white guy will reply with some other racist jibe. They might be having a disagreement over the price of a cup of coffee, yet the dialogue is littered with racist words.

From an outsiders view it is very interesting to see how large a part race plays in another nations conscience.

You would get the impression from most scripts that white people and black people are incapable of talking about anything without first establsihing their racial identity.

In my opinion, it's only really justifiable (and necessary in story terms) to have racist characters if it deals directly with the theme and you are subverting it, by showing that it is wrong (eg American History X).

If you put racist characters or dialogue in the script just because "racists exist" or it's reaistic or whatever, but then there are no reprecussions for that behaviour, then you are guilty of normalising racism and the script itself becomes racist.

There are some scripts on here that contain elements of racism, written by some of the more popular writers that I could point out, but I don't want to start a long discussion about it.

I would hope that if you are dealing with a topic like race that you would take the time to consider other peoples points of view. There is a kind of unthinking racism that can creep into peoples work if you are not careful, choosing stereotypes or making false assumptions.

This is particularly true if ones influences are past films which themselves contain the type of unthinking racism I'm talking about.

Peopel get very upset about the "PC Crowd" and what have you, and free speech is all well and good BUT IF AND ONLY IF everyone is as free to speak and has the same opportunity of being heard as everyone else.

Film and Art in general are by their very nature political. A film made just to entertain is by definition a film that supports the present Capitalist system, for instance.

Writers as artists and more importantly as people, should take great care to make sure that they are dealing with the issues in a fair, open minded manner.

If nothing else, it will make you a better writer.

Rick.

A good introduction to the problem of race in Cinema, from a black perspective is this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Toms-Coons-Mulattoes-Mammies-Bucks/dp/082641267X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199890830&sr=8-1

I'd recommend that people read it because it helps to recognise certain innate problems that you might not recognise in yo ur own work/character.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films My feelings are that it is perfectly fine to have racist characters in the script, but not to have the script itself being racist in tone. If the story is merely a hack and slash thriller featuring a white guy running round killing "coons" and the story glorifies him, then obviously it's going to be offensive. Something that stands out in the majority of scripts that I receive from American writers, that happen to have people from different races in them, is that the conversations taking place between them almost always contain conflict based over race. A white guy walks into a room and the black guy will call him cracker, the white guy will reply with some other racist jibe. They might be having a disagreement over the price of a cup of coffee, yet the dialogue is littered with racist words. From an outsiders view it is very interesting to see how large a part race plays in another nations conscience. You would get the impression from most scripts that white people and black people are incapable of talking about anything without first establsihing their racial identity. In my opinion, it's only really justifiable (and necessary in story terms) to have racist characters if it deals directly with the theme and you are subverting it, by showing that it is wrong (eg American History X). If you put racist characters or dialogue in the script just because "racists exist" or it's reaistic or whatever, but then there are no reprecussions for that behaviour, then you are guilty of normalising racism and the script itself becomes racist. There are some scripts on here that contain elements of racism, written by some of the more popular writers that I could point out, but I don't want to start a long discussion about it. I would hope that if you are dealing with a topic like race that you would take the time to consider other peoples points of view. There is a kind of unthinking racism that can creep into peoples work if you are not careful, choosing stereotypes or making false assumptions. This is particularly true if ones influences are past films which themselves contain the type of unthinking racism I'm talking about. Peopel get very upset about the "PC Crowd" and what have you, and free speech is all well and good BUT IF AND ONLY IF everyone is as free to speak and has the same opportunity of being heard as everyone else. Film and Art in general are by their very nature political. A film made just to entertain is by definition a film that supports the present Capitalist system, for instance. Writers as artists and more importantly as people, should take great care to make sure that they are dealing with the issues in a fair, open minded manner. If nothing else, it will make you a better writer. Rick.

I'm not sure I agree with everything you said here. Especially this:

Quoted Text If you put racist characters or dialogue in the script just because "racists exist" or it's reaistic or whatever, but then there are no reprecussions for that behaviour, then you are guilty of normalising racism and the script itself becomes racist.

If you in a film have communist characters just because communists exist, and don't morally judge them, does the script then normalize communism? Is the script itself communist?

If not, then how is it different with racism? Both are controversial political and social theories, even if the latter is in a league of its own.
What if both communists and capitalists exist in the same script without being given preference?

Which begs the question: Is it always a movie's obligation to pass overt judgement on these kinds of things? Is the primary function of movies to shape minds and society, or to reflect it?

Quoted Text Peopel get very upset about the "PC Crowd" and what have you, and free speech is all well and good BUT IF AND ONLY IF everyone is as free to speak and has the same opportunity of being heard as everyone else.

By virtue of, and within the framwork of, the law that is. Right? Equal opportunity within the law, not necessarily in practice. A newspaper editor will always have greater opportunity to express himself than someone like me, because he has easier access to the means of communication and a greater audience, but from the law's Point of view we have the exact same opportunity and rights to express ourselves.

Free speech that didn't grant equal opportunity for expression would by definition not be free.

However, I do agree that you have to watch out for creeping latent racism in movies and TV. That's one of the few succesful comments of the movie Crash. There's a scene where a black actor is asked to act in a more "black" way, which is code for more 'colorful' and say words like "Dayamn!" and "Dat is whack, yo!" But I think this problem can be tied into Hollywood's need for clear-cut clichés in general rather than rooted in racism in general. One of the most stereotypefied characters in movies today is actually the high-school jock. You know, the one character who will never have a motive for being a douche, but arbitrarily shove people up against their locker and say stuff like "Where do you think you're going, faggot?" Never mind rationalization! He's the captain of the football team!

Quoted Text If you in a film have communist characters just because communists exist, and don't morally judge them, does the script then normalize communism? Is the script itself communist?

Communists have usually been the bad guys in films as far as i am aware. That in itself is a problem. Even childrens films like Ants express the notion that individualism is greater than the communal good. As i say all films make political statements (which is why the US insists upon throwing in film rights as part of foreign treaties all the time, their Government is well aware of what the films contain).

Matewan was the only film that comes to mind where the good guy was a communist, but there were good guys and bad guys on both sides in that film. That indeed is the point the film makes.

Every film makes a point about the people that it portrays, consciously or not. If the film merely shows the a "communist" being nice to everybody and that is it, he plays no further part in the film, then the author is clearly pointing out that Communism is good.

Quoted Text Which begs the question: Is it always a movie's obligation to pass overt judgement on these kinds of things? Is the primary function of movies to shape minds and society, or to reflect it?

Films either do pass judgement or they don't. The three act traditional structure almost always passes judgement. There is usually a very clear demarkation of the good and evil.

"Independent" films tend to leave judgement open a bit more.

A film is merely a window into the mind of the director, it almost never reflects society. Reflecting something as heterogenous as society is impossible. It can only reveal one mans (or a few at best) perception of it. Which is why all the subconscious things are wont to come out.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Communists have usually been the bad guys in films as far as i am aware. That in itself is a problem. Even childrens films like Ants express the notion that individualism is greater than the communal good. As i say all films make political statements (which is why the US insists upon throwing in film rights as part of foreign treaties all the time, their Government is well aware of what the films contain). Matewan was the only film that comes to mind where the good guy was a communist, but there were good guys and bad guys on both sides in that film. That indeed is the point the film makes.

I think there are far more, but in American and general anglophone cinema it's probably not as prevalent. Reds comes to mind. But in fact, I just watched the Great Debaters, in which Denzel Washington's character is implied to be communist by the movie. The film neither passes judgement on him nor absolves communism, because that's not what it's about.

However, I doubt that would be possible with racism. One of the few isms worse to Americans than communism. ;)

Quoted Text Every film makes a point about the people that it portrays, consciously or not. If the film merely shows the a "communist" being nice to everybody and that is it, he plays no further part in the film, then the author is clearly pointing out that Communism is good.

I disagree. While it's true it makes a point about the people it portrays it doesn't necessarily make a point about their politics. Only 2-dimensional characters ARE their political beliefs. Consider the Danish movie "In China They Eat Dogs". The whole point of that movie is a sort of moral ambivalence (hence the title: In China it's all right to eat dogs, in Denmark it isn't. It's neither morally right nor wrong), and one of its main characters is an obnoxious mysogynist racist that the movie eventually fails to give his come-uppance. Is racism bad? Yes, but the movie is indifferent towards the question. It's not what it's about.

I feel like there is a sort of deconstructionist view in what you're saying, when you talk about a movie's unconscious judgement of characters. If it's unconscious or unintentional, then how do you know it's not just something you infer on its part?

Quoted Text Films either do pass judgement or they don't. The three act traditional structure almost always passes judgement. There is usually a very clear demarkation of the good and evil. "Independent" films tend to leave judgement open a bit more.

Well, obviously they either pass judgmet or they don't. It's not like there's a third option out there.  :P But I think a lot of "world" cinema is much more nuanced than traditional (I sorta feel there is an implied "Hollywood" here) movies.

Quoted Text A film is merely a window into the mind of the director, it almost never reflects society. Reflecting something as heterogenous as society is impossible. It can only reveal one mans (or a few at best) perception of it. Which is why all the subconscious things are wont to come out.

Come on, that's semantics. Of course movies can reflect aspects of society and comment on it. I never said it was an objective or unbiased mirror.