Ok, so can a script ever be unmarketable because of storyline (not formatting). I know there are films out there that push the boundaries. But very few ever really smash them. How many sectors of society can you offend in one film.

I've written a script (still needs some polishing) which I think is unmarketable as a film, and am thinking that I should rewrite it as a story. Basically it could be offensive to christians/catholics and also deals with child murder and necrophilia. Really dodgy stuff I know. I've not put anything in that wasn't essential to the storyline. But I'm not sure whether to bother working on it anymore, after all it's kinda pointless if no-one will touch it with a barge-pole.

Opinions greatly appreciated.

Hey Pippo

I say if it's a story you're wanting to tell then finish it, whether you'll be able to sell it or not. Self-censorship isn't something I agree with. Everything has a market. It's difficult to say without more detail on what it's about but I say go with it and if no-one wants the finished product at least you've produced a script that you meant to.

Ste

I don't think anything is unmarketable based on its storyline.  Christian and Catholic groups had problems with the DaVinci Code, Jews had issues with The Passion of the Christ, and here we sit years later after both of those movies pulled in major bank at the box office and one has a second installment on the way.  Child murder and necrophilia have been done before as well.

The trick is to find someone who has the stones to do a project that may come off as controversial.  They're out there.  It's just a matter of finding them.

Long story short, the way something is written would make it unmarketable before its subject matter does.  My opinion anyway.

Every six months or so somebody poses this question -- and when they finally post the script -- it is met with a nonchalant shrug of the shoulders.

Nothing is shocking anymore.  In the age of the cup girls, there is no envelope left to push.

I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Quoted from bert In the age of the cup girls, there is no envelope left to push.

Now, why did you have to bring those two up. I had just gotten my appetite back.

Jordan wrote a short once for the horror/milk OWC. It is to my knowledge the only script ever to get a warning by Don for being disturbing. That one is currently being filmed by a female director in Germany.

I also agree with Bert, there is no envelope left to push. Especially if you are only out to shock people. You should concentrate on writing a good story instead. If that story requires sick and vile imagery it will be accepted. There's a shortage of good stories, not violence, gore, politics, religion and such.

Good luck with it.  :-)

Thanks for the response, it's given me a new lease of hope for it.

I should point out this was never intended to be a "shocker", and I don't think it comes across as such. I just wasn't sure what the feeling about the child necrophilia thing would be. From the responses here I'd say that it obvioulsy isn't as big a deal I feared it might.

It is integral to the story, so I can't cut it.

I guess I'll finish it up. And post it here, to see if it's worth sending it out.

Thanks again.

Hello Pippo,

My first question would be:  Why is it your working with dodgy stuff?  There has to be a reason and I think there you will find your answer as to whether to pursue it or not.

My opinion is that writers shouldn't write for shock value.  That's just gratuitous.

We can't get away from the fact that we live in between two polarities and some writers decide to take on the challenge of writing on that extremely evil side of the spectrum.  It exists or the words wouldn't exist to describe them.

The most important thing I think I can say right now is: Give your characters motivation.  Don't just write dark stuff because it's dark.  

Sandra

What's a cup girl?

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. What's a cup girl?

HAHAHAHA!!! Take my word, Sandra. You don't wanna know.

~Zack~

Smiles...

I think the unmarketable aspect of screenplays is not based on offending but the nature of the idea.

A script that is happy, fun loving and "simple" is more likely to be made these days than something that is fresh, new and exciting.

In my own opinion I think of myself as someone who writes for a niche audience and could never be one of those people who everybody loves and can do no wrong.

It is all about story and not shock value or writing what sells.

Again, that is my opinion.

I think I'm going with the majority on this one, Pippo. I recall, in 1992, when Reservoir Dogs went to Cannes, and literally divided the audience. Half of the viewers were blown away by the originality, and the other half were shocked by the violence. But you compare the ear-slitting of Dogs to the masochism of, say, Hostel, and you see how far desensitization has gone.

I'm very curious to see how necrophilia is necessary to the storyline. Are you planning on posting this "unmarketable" monster?

Hey Pippo; Just write your script; give your muse the room to do what she wants; you're the primary audience- If you don't have a blast telling your story, odds are no one else will either...

I maybe should have pointed out that it's a Supernatural/horror story. It refers to actually events (hence the child necrophilia, murder, mutilation) which I've toned down as much as possible. No graphic scenes, just flash shots, implications and after shots. It doesn't happen all the way through either, just in the first half of the story.

I agree that the shock tactic films some of you have mentioned (res.dogs, hostel, etc), pull off the whole adult audiences desire for gruesome/violent. I'm not sure doing the same to children that graphically would be acceptable. I don't want to create something paedophilic after all.

And, Yes, Dr. Mc. I'm hoping to post it here (once I've finished polishing, editing adding etc).

Once again, cheers all for your responses.

I wouldn't call Res. Dogs a shock tactic film.  That wasn't Tarantino's thoughts when he made it.  While there were a couple of such scenes it, there was a story to it and it was extremely well told.

Hostel?  Well, that's another story....


Phil

Yeah let's not confuse the two. RD is actually a pretty solid, if graphic, crime story. It still holds together pretty well.

Hostel - well, to quote Statler & Waldorf "I've seen better film on teeth!".

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. What's a cup girl?

Maybe we can tape Sandra watching the video and post it?


Phil

Quoted from pippo Basically it could be offensive to christians/catholics and also deals with child murder and necrophilia.

I think The Exorcist comes pretty close to your description, more then 30 years old, hailed as a masterpiece. So I wouldn't worry too much.

It's best not to think about if you might offend people, because there will probably always be some people that get offended by what you're writing, and it might seriously block creativity. I read this somewhere: "If you're living in a democracy, you WILL get offended every now and then. So just accept it."

Imagine James L. Brooks and Mark Andrus being worried about offending people when they were making 'As Good As It Gets' :|

I would back up what has been said by adding that there is really no such think as "unmarketable" because everything has a "market." It's usually referred to as "demographics" or "target audience" or something along those lines. The only concern I would have is that you brought up first that the story deals with these things, and then changed your tactic to it only containing these things incidentally in the first half. Which is it?

There are films unmarketable to a certain audience. For instance, you couldn't reasonably market porn to kindergardeners or The Happiest Little Elf to hardcore WoW gamers, but filmmakers tend to have a clue on how to match their niche to their target audience...or rather, their target audience finds them.

And while I haven't seen the cup girls, I do know ABOUT them, and it turns my stomach. Reservoir Dogs was an excellent film. Hostel was completely pointless (though strangely, its sequel was an improvement and dare I say, interesting).

Just make sure that these "shocker" items you're worried about play such a vital role in the fabric of your story that no one could possibly strip them out.

For example, as dumb as the movie "A Night At The Roxbury" was, it ranks as one of very, very few movies where the sex scene actually moved the plot of the story forward and wasn't just "watch these people go at it under the covers and behind cleverly blocked camera angles" where all the filmmakers are doing is laughing because they know there are no nipples to see, but know you're looking for them.

Gratitousness should be left behind. Stick to plot and character.

I don't think something is unmarketable due to content. It's only unmarketable if the story sucks.

Quoted from Pants I don't think something is unmarketable due to content. It's only unmarketable if the story sucks.

Even that's open for debate.  One man's junk is another man's treasure.

For that to apply, we'd have to be talking a universal level of suck, which is infinitely impossible based on the simple fact that the person who wrote it doesn't believe it sucks, and there's probably someone out there in the same mindset with the means to produce it.

Quoted from Shelton For that to apply, we'd have to be talking a universal level of suck, which is infinitely impossible based on the simple fact that the person who wrote it doesn't believe it sucks, and there's probably someone out there in the same mindset with the means to produce it.

I think The Hottie and the Nottie proves you wrong, Mike.


Phil

Sorry, been away. This is the first chance I've had to reply to the newer posts.

George, in response to:

I would back up what has been said by adding that there is really no such think as "unmarketable" because everything has a "market." It's usually referred to as "demographics" or "target audience" or something along those lines. The only concern I would have is that you brought up first that the story deals with these things, and then changed your tactic to it only containing these things incidentally in the first half. Which is it?

The story itself is not designed to be a "shocker". It has child nechrophilia in the first half, on more than one occassion. Its not designed to be shocking, just an action, based on historical events (which we find out about later). It is designed to ridicule religious extremism and the secretive nature of the catholic church. The child necrophilia (murder etc) is a by product of it, not an indepth look at the emotional and physical actions. Does that make it clearer? Or do I just need to get the editing done and post it, so you can see what I mean.

Originally I thought this thread was a shameless ploy to get reads based on the shock and awe of the idea. it will probably work unintended by the poster or not.

I will agree with you pippo that "unmarketable" films have a target audience and if the target audience enjoys them but everyone else hates them is that a measure of success or a failure?

No ploy was intended with this thread. I genuinely was a little skeptical of how the whole child thing would be taken. I know it can be a big issue for some. I never meant to imply that my script was a "shocker", it's not! As for the religious insults, well that I wasn't too worried about.

This was my first attempt at writing a script and didn't know that pretty much anything goes. (obviously if it's designed to be a "shocker" then anything goes). I don't expect you all to read it (when I get around to posting), after all I haven't written loads of posts myself(and the ones I did, got wiped through some computer screw up). I'd just like some constructive criticism as to whether to pursue the script thing or stick to writing stories. I should state that this is based on a story I wrote a while ago and thought would make a good film.

Quoted from pippo No ploy was intended with this thread. I genuinely was a little skeptical of how the whole child thing would be taken. I know it can be a big issue for some. I never meant to imply that my script was a "shocker", it's not! As for the religious insults, well that I wasn't too worried about.

I think based on the stuff posted that I have seen anything goes and nothing is really shocking.

Will your script get a content warning from Don? I only know of one script/person who got that based on the content of the script.

Necrophilia works best for comedy purposes. Actually showing it would in no way be part of a story. Same with child murder. When someone makes a film they can find tasteful ways to shoot scenes of that nature so that they aren't snuff films.

Quoted from dogglebe I think The Hottie and the Nottie proves you wrong, Mike.

Not that I can see.  The person who wrote it doesn't think it sucks, or at least they didn't when they wrote it, and someone with the means to produce and finance it (apparently, Paris Hilton) did so.

Quoted from The boy who could fly Yeah, I rock :D

Somehow you are the only one.

Battlefrogs: Operation Desert Skullf*ck should also have a content warning because it is awesome...

Quoted from battlefrogs LANCE and DWAYNE are f**king GIRLFRIEND. DWAYNE does her                do**y style while she s**ks off LANCE.

I censored it for the site but it's all in the script.

The World Trade Center, Osama, Black Super Zombies, Cancer Guns, Aids and a whole lot of swearing.

I am wondering how this got by without a content warning.

By products and incidental actions are usually where your "shocking" topics end up (and as comical stand-ins, as also pointed out). In those contexts, they aren't shocking at all, any more than anything else happens to be. Shocking is all in the eye of the beholder, after all, and those who would regularly practice such things would may find them as mundane as grocery shopping.

After all, we may find human sacrifice to be horrifying and shocking, but to those who practice it, it's simply another part of everyday life. :P

Damn good point George!

I have to say I'm beginning to feel a bit of an idiot for starting this thread. Although it's been interesting getting everyones perspective on the subject. As I already said I write stories. On a forum I'm on, the same type of subject came up...lets just say the responses were very different.

Is this the difference between the written and visual mediums? I would have thought the visual mediums would have been more prudish, obviously I was completely wrong. You're a bunch of nutters! :)

Sometimes, it's what isn't seen that makes the most impact in a visual medium. Why do you think women buy lingerie?

Er...being a woman who doesn't buy lingere, I have to say I've always wondered about that one.

Seriously though, I do know what you mean. But not showing enough can lead to misunderstanding and confusion. I prefer not to show to much, I think it can come across as B-movie ish especially if you don't have budget information. Also I like to work on the principal that there are people out there who can actually put 2 + 2 together. Although it's quite scary the number of people I speak to about films only to get the response "I just didn't get it".

Lingerie has a basic principle behind it. It takes the idea that the "target audience" is the male who (for all intents and purposes) already knows what lies beneath, but he still desires it. The lingerie shows just enough to tease, but not enough to actually give it all away, but little by little (as that particular game progresses) more and more of the desired visual is revealed until...erm...everything comes out in the end.

With films, you reveal the plot through visuals and dialogue, but you keep just enough hidden so that the audience gets the idea of what's going on and what they want to see, but only show a little here and there to keep the appetite whetted throughout the process. If someone doesn't "get it", that means you kept too much hidden.

If you throw this back to the lingerie example, that would be when almost everything came off, but before the "climax of the plot", she decides to run to the store for potato chips. Huh? Well, he didn't "get it." Get it?

It's a matter of keeping enough to yourself until you're ready to show the audience everything in the end and give them what they came for.

There... I either turned everyone on, or made them dreadfully uncomfortable (and made the 13 year olds either scratch their heads in wonderment or giggle).

You assume that everyones basic desires, intelligence and expectations are the same. Personally I agree with you  (on the films, not the foreplay). But using your own analogy, some people like the lights on, others lights off. Some like lingere others just like to get it all out and go for it.

I write horror, (or versions of) a difficult market to judge, expectaions and dsire vary considerably. Many like the suspense of lingere, others prefer the commando look. What can I say. I'm  beginning to think I need to study psychology and maybe pornography...help! I'm getting confused.

You have to assume something. That's what genre is for.

That's why you have to consider your target audience. Whoever might don lingerie would know who they're donning it for, what they're in for, and about how long it'll take. This is why lingerie offers so many choices from the sheer, why-bother variety to the full coverage silk gowns.

Movies have to work the same way. Different genres have different audiences, and they reveal things in different ways depending on what the audience expects. With horror, the audience expects blood and scares, but in order to do that, you can't reveal in all in the beginning. With a drama, however, you have to reveal a lot about what's going on since it is usually unfolding life as the story progresses.

It's still all about the audience.

You've got me wondering now.
If you can't please everyone, or even ascertain your specific demographic, should you even try and bother. Shouldn't you try and write something that just one person like (namely yourself) and hope that there are in fact others out there who have similar tastes.
If you try and appeal to a "market" or "genre" then aren't you then forced to write a stereotypical story. What happened to the desire for originality? (Iknow true originality doesn't exist anymore!) but aren't you writing to fit in with an idea rather than writing for the story?

Just don't write something so rediculously outlandish like Eraserhead or a giant talking banana's journey through the nine circles of Hell and you should be fine as far as marketability's concerned. While I disagree everything has a profitable market, a lot of films do and if not, you can at least shoot for a cult following. Your story sounds fine. I don't think shock value has all that much to do with marketability anyway. When you've written something so esoteric that it's rendered unmarketable, you'll probably know right away. Otherwise, you need to take your head out of your ass. David Lynch may have garnered himself a massive cult following but not everyone should expect to be so lucky.

Quoted from pippo You've got me wondering now. If you can't please everyone, or even ascertain your specific demographic, should you even try and bother. Shouldn't you try and write something that just one person like (namely yourself) and hope that there are in fact others out there who have similar tastes. If you try and appeal to a "market" or "genre" then aren't you then forced to write a stereotypical story. What happened to the desire for originality? (Iknow true originality doesn't exist anymore!) but aren't you writing to fit in with an idea rather than writing for the story?

And bingo. You have to remember that your own tastes will fit some kind of market and if you write something that you like, there's a pretty good chance others will too. As long as it makes sense and is entertaining, it's marketable...to some audience. Write what you know, and write what you enjoy. If you have fun writing it, there's also a pretty good chance it'll be fun to watch.

Best of luck.

(And Eraserhead is severely warped)

Quoted from James McClung or a giant talking banana's journey through the nine circles of Hell

Crap!  And I was fifty pages into this baby.  

You should try to keep an audience in mind when writing, if you want to go pro.  For every David Lynch, there's probably 10,000 other writers wondering why no one wants to read THE YELLOW SOUL.


Phil

I'm finishing my giant talking banana story. It's called HELL SUCKS DANTE'S BANANA.

Now that sounds like a damn good read!