The Disciple Program - Print Topic

I'm going to wait a few days before posting a review. Give people a chance to read. It's a cool script for a lot of reasons. For one thing, this script made it. Even if it never gets optioned, it got the writer signed with a big studio. That's a pretty good day.

Also, I think the script has much to say on how to write a successful script, much to teach.

Lesson number one, I think: a script sells itself in the first 20 pages. A buyer has largely made up his mind by then. If the script hasn't sold itself by then, it won't. If it has, then all it has to do the rest of the way is avoid screwing up the sale.

It's often talked about that a film or script dies in the second act. There are many reasons for that, and the one commonly cited is structure. There is truth to that, but there is an overlooked reason: momentum. When a script packs most of it's punch in the first act, there's almost no way the second act can live up to the first. So we have declining momentum. But if you want to sell a script, you have to risk that, because you better fire all your artillery in the early rounds.

What you want is to reset, and build to another peak, which usually comes in the form of a big surprise. That means the midpoint is hugely critical. I would argue it's more important that the act turns into two and three. Here's why.

You fire all your big guns in the first act, say the first 25 to 30 pages. If you've done well, the reader is impressed, maybe even drained. Peaks require valleys, so the script will need to recharge at this point. This is where the story will lose some steam, but that's ok. Because you've earned the right from the the reader to continue with your story on the strength of your first act.

But this emotionally flat part of the story can't continue forever. It can't be too long. You'll probably get about 15 or 20 pages of treading water. I don't mean dead scenes, but no major twists or turns. This leads you to the midpoint, which should be a big twist. This twist recharges the whole story, wakes us up, carries us to the end. And us long as the end doesn't suck, the audience will be reasonably satisfied. If the ending is great, the audience will be completely wowed by the whole experience.

I think Disciple needs to strengthen it's midpoint. It needs to move it's big twist up to that part of the film. This will supercharge the rest of the story, dramatically increase the stakes, amp up the conflict and tension in each scene. I'll say more when we discuss.

Quoted from leitskev

Any reason not to just post here, informally?

As to the Script Club question, you are likely to gain more participants through conventional channels (and I think Don prefers that it be a bit more structured).

Anyone can moderate that discussion -- and I suggest Kev give it a go with a formal thread -- but be warned, to thoroughly moderate such a discussion can be more time-consuming than you might expect.

It is also good form to wait until the OWC has settled itself down before embarking on something like that.

If you want to announce a formal thread in Screenwriting class, then lock it down for a week or so while people read, that is the way to go.

I've never participated in a script club, and really don't wish to moderate one. I was more just thinking about people leaving their opinions on the script. That could go any direction people wanted, whatever they felt like discussing. I don't think we're looking to recruit people to the discussion, either. Those that want in are in.

As you're a moderator, I'll refrain from further posts in the thread unless I hear otherwise.

Quoted from leitskev

I've never participated in a script club, and really don't wish to moderate one.

Well, somebody's got to do it. Think it over. You seem like a natural. No pressure.

It's almost the perfect script to discuss -- great, engaging, sold -- and flawed.

All I am saying is that such a discussion deserves a proper house -- and this thread isn't it.

That, and give it a week or so out of respect to the OWC folks.

Logically, it would fit in pretty nicely between the time after the OWC and before the 7WC...

I respectfully disagree. This thread is aptly named.

The only script club I witnessed here, though I did not participate(didn't have time to read the whole script) broke down into a discussion of orphans and unfilmables. Those things don't interest me in the least bit and I consider them a waste of a writer's time. People wish to discuss those aspects of Disciple, that's fine, but it doesn't interest me, and as it had no bearing on the selling of that script, for the life of me I don't understand why it would.

I've already discussed the script with people in emails, I'll stick to that. I do understand your priority, I have no problem with that, and I don't wish to distract from the OWC either. You know I'm a huge fan of the OWC's! I try to participate in those even when I don't want to. OWC's are unique event.

Quoted from leitskev

The only script club I witnessed here....broke down into a discussion of orphans and unfilmables.

Ah...and that is why such a discussion needs a proper moderator, you see -- to control such disparate elements. ["Orphans and unfilmables" you say? Who might that have been... ::)]

Anyways, just sayin' :)

And I was by no means implying that a "Script Club" treatment was mandatory here.

But they are an infrequent diversion that people seem to enjoy, and the conversation seemed to be leading in that direction.

But I will stop beating that drum now.

gonna try to read this at some point today

Like I said, I'm not the right guy to do it, and I don't have time. But when you give the thumbs up, people can maybe post their opinions of Disciple here. Very informal.

And I want to add, I was really not directing that remark on orphans at one person. Truth be told, there a lot of regulars here that focus on that kind of stuff. I just read a full page review of a regular's feature by a another regular where the reader didn't even mention the story. I'm not kidding. He took a lot of time to help with his remarks, which is generous, but amazingly he didn't mention a thing about the guy's story.

I imagine that pros laugh when they visit and see that kind of thing.

Maybe I'll post more here on Disciple next week, after the OWC. I am interested to hear what other writers think of the story choices the Disciple's author made.

Quoted from bert

It's almost the perfect script to discuss -- great, engaging, sold -- and flawed.

All I am saying is that such a discussion deserves a proper house -- and this thread isn't it.

That, and give it a week or so out of respect to the OWC folks.

I tend to agree, and the Black Swan one was a lively discussion.
And in many ways, this script should be just as intriguing.
Much thanks to Carson for shooting over a copy.

Regards,
E.D.

Quoted from Mr. Blonde

I'll check it out if you want to send it, although from what I heard, the prose is quite flowery (which really isn't my style). If someone wants to send it, cool. If not, no big deal.

lalamborghini@yahoo.com

Quoted from Felipe

I'd love to read it if anyone has the time to send it to me.

Cinemachado@gmail.com

- Felipe

Sent and sent.

E.D.

Much appreciated, Brett. but I made a mistake. I forgot to adjust the post saying I alerady received it. My bad. But, thank you just the same.

dare I say this was a bit over-written? Very good script, very good writer, but he made me feel like a moron. I'd like some background on the guy, he seems like he knows a lot about the military and if that's all off of research he deserves all the accolades he's getting. Cool story, will make a good movie, and this isn't even a genre I really enjoy.

I read the interview with him on Scriptshadow, and I don't think he was military. Another interesting thing is he began the script as part of a 15 page contest where you are given the log line. He made the top ten, and those winners get guided through the process of writing the script by industry people. I think the do ten pages a week until it's done. Then they pick a winner. And he won.

Then he sent the script to Shadow for a paid consultation. Carson loved it, promoted it, and now the guy's got it made in the shade.

Quoted from leitskev

I believe the Writing Store do this competition. You get the logline and have to submit the first 15 pages. I believe the latest competition has just launched. The logline has been given by Randall Wallace (Braveheart).

You can find it here: http://www.writersstore.com/industry-insider-screenwriting-contest

Stew

Yeah, I must be on their email list, I got a message about it. One thing that struck me is that even though that script won the contest, apparently it did not help him sell the script or himself. It was only when Carson touted him that it took off. That's the impression, anyway.

i was considering giving the new one a shot, but I'd do it as a comedy and it's probably a waste of time and $40.

Yeah, I looked at it. Two things troubled me: first, the log seemed likely to produce predictable stories that I'm getting sick of. Not that we have to read 'em, but I don't even want to write that. I can't get excited about it.

Second, if The Disciple, which won last time, did not get enough exposure from it to lead to a sale, is it really worth it? I mean the writer had to buy coverage with Carson to get noticed.

Brett, I'd love a copy of this if it's still going. Will PM you my email.

Libby

I have it if you need it Libby. I've just been trying to be discreet about saying that here, per Carson's request. This deep in the thread it's probably safe to say.

Quoted from LC

Brett, I'd love a copy of this if it's still going. Will PM you my email.

Libby

Sent. :)

E.D.

so those Amateur Fridays on SS all paid?  How much does he charge?

I like the notes i get on this site, but outside of about 10 of you, i have no clue if you're just some random dude who read Save The Cat once and decided he could give notes.  I'm no pro, when I give notes I'll let you know I'm just a guy with no sales, and no big industry contacts.

Depending on the price, I'd probably let Carson take a crack at something I've written.  I'm sure he's destroy it, but that's what I want.

He was doing coverage for about $150 this summer. But he is also looking for people to work for him now, so I don't know how much time he has. After Disciple, he's probably getting flooded. I would email him, he gets back very quick.

As far as reviews here, we're all pretty much amateur. I've only been doing writing a little more than a year, and before that I ran bars. So my reviews are not based on my experience of knowledge. They either stand on their own merits or they don't.

But pro notes can be problematic too. I've seen pro notes that are just plain awful. If you're looking for someone who can give you an indication of how close your writing is to pro level, yeah, that's tough. I guess we all are. Very hard to evaluate your own work.

Oh, I don't think Carson requires that people buy his coverage for amateur Friday. It's just that he gets hundreds of scripts, so you have a small chance of being read on Friday. But if you pay him to read, you know it's gonna get read, and if he finds one he really likes, good chance he'll promote it on Friday.

Quoted from Conz

I like the notes i get on this site, but outside of about 10 of you, i have no clue if you're just some random dude who read Save The Cat once and decided he could give notes.

I have to say that this sounds kind of harsh, Vin. A lot of peeps on here may not know as much as others but they're certainly no random dude just given advice. Everyone tries their best I hope to give the best feedback possible and it all should be taken in even if it's not to your liking. We're all amateurs at the end of the day right?

I take this personally because when you asked for reads I replied and left feedback and I'm certainly not one of the 10 you mentioned for sure, who are the 10 BTW? And I've never read Save the Cat. More of a dog lover myself ;D

Sorry to bring this up but it sounded disrespectful to a lot of us and even you admitted you're in the same boat so I have to wonder why to say this? Not meaning to start an argument here at all, just letting you know my feelings on that comment

Back onto topic. Carson is from what I can tell a hard reviewer and be sure to have some of yor finest work for him but I'm not sure if there is a fee or anything. Sorry I couldn't be more help. Be interested to know if you do have a review though?

Steve

Edit: See Kevin has replied and he knows better than me about this topic...what he said :)

Hi E.B. Know I'm late to the game if you could send a copy that would rock!
PMed my email
Thanks!

EDIT: Thanks got it.

Quoted from CoopBazinga

I'm not the guy you're talking to obviously but I think the two of us read his comment differently. I don't think he was calling everyone else a random person who's read Save the Cat once. I think he meant that outside of the 10 people he knows well, there is no way for him to know anyone's credentials for sure. I don't think he was saying we have no credentials as much as he was saying that he has no guaranteed way of knowing our background.

Sorry if I'm speaking out of place.

He was probably talking about me. But sorry, that won't shut me up! ;D

I never make any claim to being anything other than a rank amateur. I share what I think, and that's how I learn, because when I'm wrong, someone usually tells me.

And when no one corrects you, hundred of newbies die.

Cinemachado, if you are serious about that, think about this: with any advice you get, no matter what the issue, and certainly if you are taking it from an online source, you should never follow one source.

Get numerous opinions, weigh things yourself, and make a decision. I can definitely tell you that I've received great advice from veterans and I am grateful, but I have also received advice from veterans that turned out to be quite wrong, and I am glad I follow no one blindly.

Listen to people, but blaze your own path, my friend. The prize in a quest is reserved for bold.

And I can't think of any instances where I have given any really bad advice, or anything that would have harmed a newbie. Rather the opposite, I think, but again, people should weigh evidence and think for themselves.

I was not serious. Just making a dumb joke.

I wholeheartedly agree with your advice though.

If I were to listen to one person's advice I'd end up with their script.

I have one rule when I accept advice. The person giving the advice needs to prove to me they understood where I was headed with my script. If they can do that, it doesn't matter how inexperienced they might be, I will listen to their advice with open ears.

And yes, E.D., I would like to obtain a copy of this script (my email is on my profile). Cheers.

Quoted from mcornetto

I agree. A lot of times it is very apparent that someone half-assed a read. Completely ignoring something that was blatantly and clearly on the page.

Even when this happens I like to make sure I wasn't vague or unclear, but a lot of times you know the person skimmed your script.

Quoted from mcornetto

I would like to obtain a copy of this script (my email is on my profile). Cheers.

Sent.

Partly from the experience of reading this script, I have developed a new and simple theory on what a spec script should do.

Warning to Cinemachado: amateur advice to follow! :P

Two things are needed for a spec script to succeed.

One, the first act, let's say the first 25 pages, has to absolutely blow the reader away.

Two, the rest of the script has to not stink.

Let me expand this into something more useful.

The opening act can't just be pretty good, even if the rest of the script is really good, or the script is real good overall. The reader makes up his mind in the first 20 to 30 pages. If you haven't won him over, you won't. If you have won him over, the challenge is to not blow it now.

If you have succeeded in knocking his socks off with your opening act, you've earned some leeway. He'll keep reading, with a positive attitude, and as long as nothing really stupid happens, you're in good shape. But those credits that you've earned should be cashed in at the midpoint to seal the deal.

So if you have a big twist, something that will jolt the reader, don't save until near the end, as is usually the case. Unleash your big shock device at the midpoint. Then, as long as the rest isn't awful, and the end is acceptable, you've probably sold your script.

(Cinemachado, I remind you, this is amateur theory, please approach with caution!)

Let's look at where scripts usually put there big twist: near the end. But my guess is that the pro reader has made up his mind long, long before he ever reaches that point.

If you've basically captured the reader with the first act, you can seal the deal with a great midpoint that wakes him up, fires him up to read the rest of the script.

So 1) fire all your big guns in the opening act. Don't hold back, because you have to win that battle.
2) make sure the midpoint rocks. Move your twist up if you have to.

BTW, in the Disciple, he did not have the big midpoint. And he should. His big twist comes near the end. If he moved it to the midpoint, it would dramatically charge this script when it really needed it.

But Disciple did win Carson Reeves over based on the killer opening scenes. He said as much in his review. All he wanted was the rest of the script to not s@ck, and he was sold on it. That guy has a career now!

Quoted from mcornetto

Really? Go reread the comments for Thrice. Pretty much nobody got that script. I'm sorry, but if nobody is getting it, it's the writers fault.

Not picking a fight, Michael, but you know I don't understand alot of your scripts and sometimes it is me, but sometimes, it certainly is you.

I think you need to weigh a consensus from the reviews. I'm getting hammered for a few things on my feature and I have realized... I didn't pave it as clearly on page as it was in my head.

I think it is bad advice to only listen to those who've understood your script if most didn't.

James

EDIT: Kev, please send me this script when you have time. You've got my email....

Sending. Coincidentally, I am reading your script. Up to page 50.

Quoted from jwent6688

There are times when my scripts are written not to be understood in a literal way. If you understand that, then you understand my script because you understand where it's coming from. There are people who did understand where Thrice was coming from even though they weren't able to interpret it in a literal way. In the case of something like Thrice, I'm not going to listen to someone who says I should make it more literal because that isn't what I was after.

However, I do have other scripts that do have more literal interpretations. And they abide by the same rule. You get the script, I hear what you're saying. And that isn't to say I don't pay attention when a number of people don't understand something - I just can't trust their advice because they don't understand it. I'm not asking you for help on how to write a story like you would write it, I'm asking you to help me write a story like I would write it. You can't do that if you don't get it, just like I can't do that if I don't get your script.

Quoted from Felipe

I�m not sure if you�re busting my chops here, Felipe?

That�s the beauty of public forums and how we perceive things differently. Firstly, I want to state that I mean no offence to Vin when I said this, merely I found it disrespectful to newbie members like myself who�ve spent a lot of time doing reviews here. Maybe I was quick to jump the gun and judge this statement but I stand by my comments.

All I meant was that you should treat feedback, whether it�s from somebody you know or somebody�s first post with the same respect and consideration. They have given their time to read your script and leave feedback and done it for absolutely nothing.

And by no means are you speaking out of place, we all have our opinions and that was yours. Fair play to you. :)

Steve.

Quoted from mcornetto

Check your in box!

E.D.

Quoted from jwent6688

I think you need to weigh a consensus from the reviews. I'm getting hammered for a few things on my feature and I have realized... I didn't pave it as clearly on page as it was in my head.

I think it is bad advice to only listen to those who've understood your script if most didn't.

James

EDIT: Kev, please send me this script when you have time. You've got my email....

Hey James,

I'm coming into this chat late...
So pardon any misinterpretation, but I zeroed in on what you wrote here.

I tend to zero in on people that don't get my work, for instance...

The feature producer I'm writing for now is an excellent example.
When I first met him, he didn't like Clone Wife and Zombie Playground.
He didn't think they were commercial. Or that he could sell them.

I was drawn to A) his honesty and B) his DIVERSITY of OPINION.
I wanted to learn why he thought my stuff wasn't up to snuff.

Fast forward a few months, and now we're working together on several projects.
We got to know each other through combining our diversity of opinions.

And now, he's interested in my original work, not because of the script's merit.
But simply because it comes from someone he wants to work with.
So, he knows me better and wants to revisit those properties...
With the idea of championing them because he's thinking the same way I am.

It all comes back to shared knowledge through diversity of opinion, I believe.

We've got that going on where we learn from each other...
AND having that in common has made it easy for us to work together.

Whether it's here on SS... or in a feature producer's office...
I believe the concept is a great facilitator of enhancing the creative process.

Ramble complete.
End of line.

Regards,
E.D.

P.S. James, did you get the script yet?

I agree with Brett, and that's why everyone should give their opinion, whether it's the first script they've ever read or they've been doing this since Vaudeville. There is collective wisdom in the filtration process of multiple opinion.

Quoted from CoopBazinga

I�m not sure if you�re busting my chops here, Felipe?

Not at all. Sorry, that's not the first time today (or in this thread) that something I said has been taken the opposite way that I intended.

I just meant that I don't think he was trying to demean anyone with his comment rather than say how it's hard to really know people over the web.

Edit: But I think this thread has been derailed from its topic. I should probably have said this over a PM. Sorry!

Not to take this off-topic but this does feel like an amateur script. Not amateur in the sense of being bad, but it feels like the type of script someone would write to break into Hollywood.

I've always been trying to pinpoint other scripts that have that feel, too, but it's tough. The only other one I've thought of, in that way (which is odd because the guy who wrote it had been produced for about a decade), is "Joy Ride".

"Joy Ride" feels just like "The Disciple Program", but I can't put my finger on why. It's one of those unexplainable things.

Please continue.

Quoted from mcornetto

There are times when my scripts are written not to be understood

See, it's your fault. I know the way you write, Michael and when I read one of "those" scripts, I don't even attempt to give advice to the author because I have no idea where to begin.

I was just saying its bad advice to not listen to those who don't understand your script, if you're trying to write a script you want to have understood.

Read the first 34 of this today. The writing is a bit novelistic at times, but it doesn't detract from the read. I'll admit, I like it thus far. It's driving me forward. I want to know what this big conspiracy is. Why jocelyn had to die. What they're going to do with Roger.

It's working. I just feel like I've seen this before and I'm hoping there's something fresh waiting for me.

James

James, I think you'll find the whole script familiar. It's a storyline that's been repeated often since at least the 1960s. It has its own twist to it, nothing too shocking, but one can see where the script is marketable.

Also, I have to say, I've read a lot of scripts that last 6 months that actually have been optioned, and it's amazing how many of them are not good. I also read one of the Nichols winners a few weeks ago, and this actually happened in the middle of the script: they played whiffle ball, then cards...then chess! I swear, it really happened that way.

I read a script this morning that I had to review and it was so bad I feel like a need a shower. If we ever wish to kill Jeff, all we have to do is send a copy. This thing was written as though passive writing was actually the goal of writing a script.

What I conclude from all this is that it's damn hard to write a good script. That's why it takes teams of pro writers to create scripts in Hollywood.

Compared to many of these, Disciple was a real pleasure to read.

Quoted from jwent6688

I think if you watch something like Un Chien Andalou then you will get where Thrice comes from...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjLFy0_MpFg

I don't think Dali would have thought twice if someone said they didn't understand the film and as a matter of fact he would probably ignore anyone that insisted he should should make it more "understandable". It's his vision, his art -- scripts like Thrice are mine...

As far as your second comment goes, yep that makes sense. Yet, again, you should be careful about the advice you take -- everyone probably has their own way of making that decision. You shouldn't just implement every suggestion people make, unless it's from people paying you to write the script.

EDIT: Changed the link because the other one did have an odd soundtrack.

Quoted from From leitskev, early yesterday morning

Coincidentally, I am reading your script. Up to page 50.

Quoted from leitskev

I read a script this morning that I had to review and it was so bad I feel like a need a shower.

Tell me how you really feel...

Quoted from Michael

I think if you watch something like Un Chien Andalou then you will get where Thrice comes from...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7h87hJSBzE

Sorry, two minutes and I'm out. wtf was that idiotic soundtrack added by some brazilian "artist" in 2009? Kept waiting for my phone to ring after I turned it off. Expecting a little girls voice on the other line to say... "seven days."

James

Ah, James, I wasn't talking about yours!

It was an assigned script, I think it's been optioned, and it was horribly written. I would have rather have finished yours, believe me! The script I was referring to was not from anyone here.

I will finish yours tomorrow, promise. Burned out on reading at the moment.

Quoted from Mr. Blonde

I've always been trying to pinpoint other scripts that have that feel, too, but it's tough. The only other one I've thought of, in that way (which is odd because the guy who wrote it had been produced for about a decade), is "Joy Ride".

"Joy Ride" feels just like "The Disciple Program", but I can't put my finger on why. It's one of those unexplainable things.

I enjoyed Joy Ride despite the fact that it made very little sense. It had a nice style and (for the most part) likable characters. But when you really break down the plot you realize how there's basically a giant canyon of bizarre logic that tries to connect point A to point Z.

I've only read the first 10 pages of Disciple, so I can't really compare it yet. What I will say is I wasn't amazed with those first 10. It's written in such a way that at times it feels overwritten but maintains a good pace and flow. I thought it was a decent hook, that's all. I'm still looking forward to finishing it at some point (I've got a queue to fulfill) to see what about it generated such a buzz.

Well, I've been done with "The Disciple Program" for a few days and it has lots of story-related flaws. It's got lots of payoffs, but they take so long to develop that it almost doesn't matter.

But, the biggest thing is the dialogue. This guy, who basically ran through the thesaurus on his prose, couldn't do dialogue to save his life. If that were improved, I may have enjoyed this more, but it did get weaker as it went along.

Just my quick-tique.

Blonde, what do you think of my idea for that script? To move the reveal about the chip in his head up to about that half way point?

I think that solves the drag in middle issue. After that, the stakes in every scene will be ramped up dramatically. He knows he could snap any time.

Quoted from leitskev

**OBVIOUS SPOILERS**

It definitely would've changed the last half of the script, but not necessarily improved. It should have been moved there (for pacing purposes) but you run the risk of a... I can't think of the word. Basically, the audience might feel cheated with that thought going on. They'd wonder why they don't "activate" him to kill himself or anything like that, that they suggest he do to himself at the end, with the doctor.

The guy painted himself into a corner when he made the main character a "defective" Disciple. Right there, you lose ALL tension. But, for some reason, his psychotic rampage leads him to the last remaining Disciple (if I got that right. That Meachem guy) even though he knows it's not the Disciple's fault he kills people.

Anyway, the most annoying thing was the random jump in the middle of the story to the two battling CIA guys. We introduce them once then basically leave them alone for 40-50 pages. Then, we bring them back to just kill them (or him, rather)?

Like I said, I think it gets weaker as it goes along and they hardly made any use out of the drone concept which, while Carson suggested a good but flawed idea, should have had a little more promenance than just showing up once with about 10 pages left in the script.

I think I'd give it roughly 6.5-7/10 for his good prose, the beginnings of a good idea but a not-so good execution and poor dialogue.

I don't think the audience would feel cheated because no one knows how they get the signal to activate him. So he becomes terrified of phones, strangers, electronic signals, afraid they will activate him as an assassin. We don't know and he doesn't know that the chip was jarred loose, so cannot be activated. I think it would add tension to everything he does.

I read a lot of reviews on Scriptshadow, half for, half against. That is the first I've hear anyone criticize the dialogue, however. As for prose, well, most liked it, but as it doesn't get in the film, I really don't care one way or the other, as long as I can follow the story.

The problem most people had was: plot points that didn't make complete sense; a static middle; and an overly familiar premise.

Carson recognized the familiar premise, but that it was set apart because the dialogue was so good.

I just know I've read a ton of scripts the last 6 months, and most have major problems. This one holds up well by comparison.

I understand what you're saying and I agree, but what I meant is that when we find out he couldn't be activated, it felt all for nought. It would feel like a cheat or a cop out. At least, I think so.

I'm very particular about my dialogue. Subtext is all well and good (and this was over-saturated with it in parts and under, in others) but if it's not interesting, it may as well not be there at all.

As for the prose, it painted a good enough picture without being too flowery and very little of it couldn't be filmed. Of course, had he used wrylies instead of action lines for his dialogue deliveries, he could've saved a solid 3-5 pages, but people don't really like wrylies.

It mostly made sense but it took so LONG to develop, it just didn't work. The story could get along fine without adding or cutting anything. All he'd need to do is re-arrange the order of some scenes and I think it'd work out.

I disagree strongly with that, but I'm not the one people send scripts to, to be reviewed.

It does. I think anybody should be able to see WHY it was picked up. Mostly because the problems is has can be fixed relatively easily.

This script discouraged me when I heard everyone praising the first act. I was not impressed by it at all. Then when he went on the road I started to get hooked. I really loved how the payoff is so obvious that you don't even consider it.

By the end, it was just one payoff after another, so I do agree that they could be spread out a little more.

Kevin, do you think Norman could be the one to tell him he's been bugged? If his wife knew, then maybe Norman would too.

Cin, that makes sense. It should definitely come around that point in the story. Though I have to admit, I think the whole Norman thing has to be replaced. It felt to me like the writer just didn't have an idea what to do next. I mean how did his wife figure this thing out, and how did she find out about Norman? And then how did she FIND "off the grid" Norman? Apparently the government can't find him, but out little psychologist can. And then it turns out the government really CAN find him. This part of the story dragged and made little sense. Even the fact that Norman wouldn't tell him anything until they slept on things. I hate it when writers do that.

I'll tell you, at the moment I am firmly convinced that to sell a spec script, as an unknown writer, you should do two things: first, have an unforgettable first act, so first 25 pages. I mean, to the point where should almost look at it is if that's your script. If you've wowed the reader by the end of the first act, you're in great shape. If not, you're dead in the water with almost no chance.

The second thing I think you should have is a big turn at the midpoint. Doesn't matter if it's a high or low, just something that really wakes the reader up. A big turn here will drive the reader right through the dreaded second half of second act. Then as long as your ending doesn't stink, you've sold a script!

Disciple did not have that big turn at the midpoint, but it could. Imagine if you have a chip in your head that could turn on and make you an assassin at any moment? And you have no idea how the signal will come. The phone, the tv, the car radio...everything becomes dangerous. Meanwhile, you're in a race to get to the people who control that signal. All the while you're paranoid about everything around you that could carry the signal. And as you don't know when you might suddenly become a killer, other things disturb you too. Things almost become opposite of norm: let's say you pick up a hitchhiker. In the regular movie scenario, we wonder if the hitchhiker is a killer. But now this guy has to wonder if HE will suddenly become a killer. Innocent people around him are in danger, and this terrorizes him, fills every scene with automatic conflict and tension.

That's the script he should have done!

I don't really understand Blonde's perception that this story started slow. I think the success of this script is due to the fact that it starts fast. A lot happens in the opening act. This guy sold his script based on the opening act(or at least used the script to launch a career). IMO.

I didn't think it started slow. I just wasn't impressed by the first act. The only cool part about it is how his steel plates kept the injection from going in. I was still not really that into it. I think the way Roger's relationship with his wife was introduced made me not care about them and not connect with him as much for the rest of the story where he was grieving.

You are correct about the way they are introduced. Which shows the power of first impressions. Excellent point. I noticed that when I read. While eventually we understand why they grew apart as a couple(she finds out he has an assassin chip in his head), because we meet them when they are not close, it greatly reduces our capacity to care. Perhaps that could be addressed with flashbacks from happier times. If there were such flashes, I forget.

I read to page 35 last night and I think it's been entertaining so far, a lot if mystery surrounding the story but it never comes off as confusing and makes you want to continue. I have to say that I've been impressed so far and enjoyed it.

If anyone has a copy, please send it to reggiebeltran@hotmail.com.

Scriptshadow is pretty rough on amateur so I'm interested what the fuss is all about. Thanks.

Ok - I got the script. Thanks!

I got around to knocking out the first ten this morning...

Dug how the killers were introduced...
One completely emotional based... our wheelchair killer.
The other, completely logic driven... our remote pilot.

That screams to me already these two blokes are primed for conflict.
So, yeah, I'll continue. ;D

Regards,
E.D.

It's worth reading, Brett. not just for what works in the script, but for what doesn't work, and yet doesn't damage the script. If the story was flawless, I think there would be less it could teach us as writers.

This is a solid script and I can see why it sold.  There was a real precision to the writing and the story just kept gaining momentum to the point where you're wondering "how's he gonna end this thing?"  The concept itself is really nothing new, just a mash-up of Manchurian Candidate and Bourne.  But the writer has a definite gift for phrasing and managed to make a well-trodden idea seem fresh.

SPOILERS

I like how the story got moving right away, but I had problems with the logic in that opening scene.  I'n not sure if it's possible to barf up an object like a shiv and if you could, it wouldn't be a weapon where you could hack your hand off with a couple of strikes.  You'd need a hatchet to do what the prisoner did to his arm.

Similar logic issue with the scene where the Arsonist and Nurse attempt to fake the Hero's death.  Why wait until someone shoved a tube down your throat and dump whiskey into you?  Why not just attack as soon as you were ready?  I suppose the answer is it sets up the scene more dramatically, but it was still hard to buy.

Still, the story just kept moving.  One technique the writer used well was the timing of the deaths of some of the key characters.  Usually you can "feel" in these scripts when something bad is about to happen, but this script kept me on my toes.  And it did have a satisfying wrap-up.

Ryan, I agree on the Arsonist and the Nurse scene completely. But ironically, that is what makes this scene work, too. The idea of him sitting there coolly watching is what makes the scene intriguing and is what really tells us something about the determination of the protag.

The lesson for me when I read the scene was that not every scene in a story has to make perfect sense, as this scene definitely does not make sense. That scene probably more than any other sold this script, even though it was illogical.

I did think the story dragged in the middle. My suggestion was to have the protag figure out he had a chip in his own head at the midpoint. That would ramp up the stakes for every scene that followed.

Hey Guys,

Picking this up from page ten this morning...

Some of the descriptions are a real mouthful for me.
Such as this one on page thirteen...

Roger waits in the visitor�s chair, face a portrait of raw,
freshly widowered devastation.

I know what just happened, was that thesaurus explosion really needed?

Did anyone else find Dr. Nethercutt's speeches long winded?
Pages sixteen and seventeen were a bit of a slog for me.

Stopping at the flash drive discovery on page 27 today...
Poor dog having to carry around all that plot without even so much as a thank you!

I wish I got to see Roger and Jocelyn do something together.
The in bed relationship report was fairly irksome and transparent.
Could even generate some feeling watching family vids post mortem.
Something. Anything.

I dig Edmund, even though his moniker is a bit too Robocop for my liking. ;D

Regards,
E.D.

I'll pick this up from page 27 this morning...
So far, I think it's a pretty distilled story.
And that has its pros and cons.
So we'll see what the second act brings...

P. 29
I'm thinking all this Darryl Lee business would make a good opening grabber.
Rather see this great stuff than get the library treatment.

P. 37
And just like that, the Nurse/Arsonist scene derails tons of credibility for me.
Even if it's medically sound, I just don't buy Roger's ace in the nape.
I expect stuff like that from Mission:Impossible tropes, not Manchurian Candidate.

Putting on the brakes at page 46 today...

The exposition explosion at the Fusion Center was hard to take for me.
Dialogue was was not overtly verbose, but we don't know these characters either.
I felt like I was doing double duty while catching all the Middle East tap dancing.

That being said, the overall narrative clarity comes through on the page.
Though I'm wondering if Edmund will return...
To me, he's the most dynamic character so far.

Regards,
E.D.

I agree with several of your points, Brett, and there's a profound lesson in that. Had he posted his script here and received these types of reviews, he would have obtained the impression that he wrote a stinker. And yet this script got him signed to a major studio. There has to be a lesson in that.

In some ways, I don't think the script has ever been written that would receive a glowing review from writers. That probably reflects several things: how truly hard this craft is; how great movies probably began as imperfect scripts that are improved at various stages of production; how we writers often focus on what doesn't work instead of what works in a script.

I'm not sure what any of this means, but it's worth thinking about.

Quoted from leitskev

Hey Kev,

Apologies if my thoughts gave the impression I dislike the script.
That's not the case. But that Arsonist/Nurse Kathy stuff was comparatively sub par.
Not having a proverbial tongue cluck until page 37? That's pretty smooth.
The rest is serviceable or better. Perhaps saying this would be more accurate...

Page 37 is the first where I really felt the script stepped on its own feet.
It's a bit of spit in the eye after a fairly smooth ride.
Though I di wonder about the intubating...
I was under the impression being fully cognizant for that would've made him choke.
But I'm no nurse. ;D

Regards,
E.D.

I have a few minutes before work intrudes...
Page 46 is where I left off with all the new Club Fed blokes.

P. 47
I dig Roger's voice mail to Jocelyn.
Right up until the grim declaration about getting justice.
I thought his vulnerable words conveyed all that nicely without the hammering.

P. 50
The crystal meth deal was kooky.
Part of me is wondering if the author's going all Total Recall here at times...
I have my doubts that Roger ever "escaped".

Stopping at 56 this morning.
I feel like the chase is on, but there's a micromanaging kind of feel I get at times...
Some of these supporting details are getting mucho air time.
Was it really needed to see Beau and Ambrose have their little dance?
Seems enough to me the old guard Ambrose would hate the smartphone smart ass.
Why all the posturing and sniper business? I'd prefer a kickstart into their conflict.
And use the time to gives us a peak into the big plot to keep us enticed.

Good move setting a chunk in the B.C.
Producers will like that money saver. ;D

Feels like it's been a while since we the reader learned much new plot stuff.

E.D.

I actually agree with most of your points, Brett, and thought these things myself. And I think the B.C. scene makes almost no sense. If I was producing this script, I'd try to come up with something different.

I also think the story drags around the midpoint. And I think there's an easy fix, which I'll bring up after you finish the read.

I was commenting on how harsh we can seem on even scripts that are generally quite good, and even have led to success for the writer.

What's the B.C. Scene? I read this a month ago.

Quoted from Felipe

What's the B.C. Scene? I read this a month ago.

I'm referring to British Columbia.
Roger's off tracking his lead in that cheap to shoot picaresque area.
It's replete with Deliverance transplants! ;D

Regards,
E.D.

Alrighty then... back to the wilds of British Columbia.
Let's see if those Deliverance types deliver on the stereotype... ;D

P. 61
Meeting the thugs...
Is it just me or is this story "de-foucusing" at times?
Mucho character intros in the second act...
But they're mostly hired hands or cranky bureaucrats.
Typically when the reader spends time with these types...
We learn plot that the protag is not privy to. Where's the plot?
How long has it been since the story pushed forward?
Feels like twenty pages to me, but I could be wrong.

P. 63
The two pages of pure thug exposition didn't go down well.
Especially right after we know the protag has met a key figure.
Methinks I'm getting a tad antsy with this one.

P. 68
Again with two more pages of thug small talk on the jet. Meh.
And that's after the key plot guy told the protag to sleep.
No sleep. Plot now. I'm a desperate protag out for revenge.
Why the delay? These last ten pages have felt very standoffish.

Stopping at page 74 today...

I wasn't impressed with Norman's exposition.
Seems odd to me the way he unravels the plot in a linear manner.
He's not scared, not a hint of paranoia.
This thriller's mid section feels too relaxed for my taste.

But overall the writing is clean and the pages move along.
Tyler can certainly keep the format flow going.

E.D.

Quoted Text

This thriller's mid section feels too relaxed for my taste.

Yup. And there's an easy fix, I think. I'll wait til you finish to run it by you.

Well, I better get this one wrapped up...
I'm interested to hear some development suggestions.
Picking up from page 74 this morning...

P. 78
Doesn't make much sense to me the wolfdog would stay quiet.
His master is downstairs with all that ruckus?
That animal would be alert barking like crazy IMEO.

P. 80
The knife fight here feels particularly overwritten.

P. 82
It's borderline laughable Ambrose & Arroyo chat about cash and loose ends...
While the target is getting away! Seriously?

P. 88
Feels off to me Ambrose returned to D.C. so quickly.
He could've commandeered Norman's truck back to Deliveranceville.
And more thug banter at the ball game. Bleh.

P. 91
The old distract the thug with an elevator stunt didn't go over well with me.
Felt very Die Hard-sih for a script that's channeling it's inner Manchruian Candidate.

P. 92
This straightforward office attack feels foolish to me.
Why not follow the guy home and get him where he's vulnerable?

Stopping at 94 today...
Is it just me or does it feel like the script gets more overwritten as it goes along?

I wonder if the logline contest it was sprung from is responsible in a way...
The contest sponsor would work on ten page chunks with the author.
But it seems to me they super polished the first act more than anything else.

To be continued.

E.D.

I didn't take notes when I read it, and that was 2 or 3 months ago. I don't recall if the beginning was more polished, but I think that's the way with most scripts. For one thing, as we all write on word processors, we continuously polish the early parts of a script as we write.

Another issue, one I am struggling with now with a script, is the challenge of tying up loose ends to finish a script. It's a lot easier to create the loose ends than it is to tie them up. I remember thinking he wasn't real sure how to wrap this baby up. The scenes at the end seemed rushed and a little like a 007 spoof.

I don't think the logline contest would have much impact on the writing. I suspect, not know, just suspect, that the sponsor would have little or nothing to say about the writing itself. These guys really focus on story at that level.

A note on the success of this script and what it's meant for the writer: it seems the script one that contest last year, but then didn't go anywhere. It was when he paid Carson for coverage, and Carson fell in love with it, that it took off. So the writer owes Carson big.

But it's worked both ways. The discovery of this script has really changed Carson's life too, so the script must have impressed some important people after Carson brought it to the public's attention.

I'm not sure what overall lesson to take. The script has its imperfections, many of them Brett astutely points out. But then, I've read a lot of optioned scripts this year, and most of them are seriously flawed as well. Maybe if we think about scripts as the first step in the process towards a film, a process that will include many revisions by producers and directors, it helps. Producers are not necessarily looking for something that will be filmed as written, but something that can be turned into something profitable with development.

For example, the famous Assassin/nurse scene here. It's not realistic, even kind of silly. But to the popcorn crowd, it would also be kind of cool. Something they would remember and talk about.

I think he keeps the story basically moving. While it drags a little in the middle, it doesn't die. I think he has a sense of pacing. And he is a new writer, so he probably will improve quite a bit. The whole process of watching the journey of this script and the writer has been interesting.

Quoted from leitskev

I don't think the logline contest would have much impact on the writing. I suspect, not know, just suspect, that the sponsor would have little or nothing to say about the writing itself. These guys really focus on story at that level.

Hey Kev,

Yeah, loose ends are slippery buggers...
That's why I put them on index cards and pin them down on cork boards. ;D

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2012/02/screenplay-review-disciple-program.html

There's a section in the article that details the process...
After getting selected from the logline list, there's a bit of development for the winners.
And that included polishing the script ten pages at a time.

I could be wrong, but that's just how this script feels to me.
Very smooth first third, but the brew's gone bitter for me as it unfolds.

E.D.

Sprinting to the finish today.
It's raining out, so I've got no excuses.
Fill that morning workout with some Manchurian Candidate mayhem instead.
Well, hopefully...

P. 96
Here's what I was afraid of...
Pages of exposition culminating in mindless automatons.
The laziest outcome completely devoid of character conflict.
One of the most compelling aspects of Manchurian for me was the CONFLICT.
The struggle to retain one's identity in the face of subversive adversaries...
Where even your mother will objectify you for her own agenda!
To me, that's what drives Frankenheimer's film so well...
And that film's protag is an INSIDER fighting his way through the condition.
The Disciple Program is all about an OUTSIDER learning a story that killed his wife.
The premise leaves so little room for internal character conflict.

P. 103
This is one of the oddest unfilmables I've ever seen...
And trust that it took longer to describe than it did to transpire.

Take a sledgehammer to that fourth wall why don't you? ;D
It's like Shane Black hijacked the script for two seconds.

P. 107
This all feels too sedate for my tastes.
There's little to no visual punch on the page...
Why aren't we seeing flashes of what Roger did as his life unravels?
The torment, anguish... the suffering. It's all truncated through exposition.

P. 108
I don't buy that Roger walks away without asking the question...
Why does Horace help Roger? But our protag just walks away...
Doesn't even bother asking the question. That rings false to me.

P. 111
Fuch's line here is my favorite in the entire script...
Because if I was a speck on the
horizon and you were standing at
the CIA�s doorstep, they�d shove
you aside to take a shot at me.

Succinct. Uses metaphor. Demonstrates some humor. Nice.

Finished.
There's one thing I haven't touched on so far during this read...
The script's act structure... I never felt the story had a third act.
If the second act was bubble gum...
The author stretched it out over the entire rest of the story.
Never felt higher risks or intensified stakes at all.
Sure, we got some fairly horrifying news, but...
The sense of urgency stayed constant throughout.
Roger didn't have to stretch himself or do anything he hasn't done before.
I never felt the uptick that an impending climax should bring.

That and Edmund was by far the most interesting character.
And he got an unceremonious and vague death just for being cool.
First act smoothness aside, I wouldn't follow these Disciples to a bus stop.

E.D.

Quoted Text

Never felt higher risks or intensified stakes at all.
Sure, we got some fairly horrifying news, but...
The sense of urgency stayed constant throughout.

Yes! And this is where I think he has an easy fix:

Roger(is that the protag's name? I forget) should discover around the midpoint that he has the chip in his head. Yeah, the writer wants that for his big third act twist. But think of what it would do for the stakes and the urgency. In every scene, Roger will be terrified that the killer inside him will be turned on. He has no idea how the signal will arrive. By phone, by radio broadcast, over the TV. Everything is a threat. He has to stop those in control as soon as possible, or God knows what they will make him do.

To me, if he did this with the story, the whole thing is super charged right at the mid point. Right when it needs to be.

He can still have the twist at the end where he finds out he was the one who killed his wife.

I've learned many things from watching this script's rise. But what has impacted me the most and changed the way I look at scripts, and film, is the potential power of the midpoint. We tend to look at the turn into two and into three as the two big hinges on which stories turn. I think this makes us neglect the midpoint, which I think could be more important in many stories.

We all tend to want to put our big memorable twist near the end. Maybe Hitchcock did that to us. And I love those stories too. But that is not the only way to build a railroad.

If you have one big twist, why not consider moving it to the midpoint? There can still be a clear turning point at the end of two. But the thing that kicks us in the ass and brings us back to the edge of our seat...that should come at the midpoint. And if you do that, you can avoid the dreaded black hole at the second half of the second act. This script is a perfect example, I think, of how that could really save a story.

The ending felt rushed and didn't really make much sense. Convenient at times. And yet the script made this guy's career. Why?

Because people make up their minds on a script LONG before the end. So heavy artillery used there are largely wasted. The battle is mostly decided in the first act. For a spec script by an unknown writer to have a chance, the first act has to blow the reader away. If it does, he will read on just to make sure the script doesn't fall apart, as many do. The script will have a lot of credibility going into the second act with the reader, a perfect time for "fun and games", story B, or whatever. But then something BIG has to happen at the midpoint to reinvigorate the read. If it does, the script is sold. The second half doesn't matter.

I've only had 2 people contact me about producing features of mine. And both times, the reader did not read the second half of the script! Granted, these were not big producers or even close to it, but I suspect they still give evidence to how it often works. If the reader is going to be excited about a script, he either is or isn't by the midpoint. If he isn't, the script has no chance. If he is, you've already won, unless something really awful happens to the second half of the script.

That's what I've taken away most from The Disciple, and it doesn't even have the big midpoint, ironically. But it got me thinking.

Finished up on this yesterday and I really enjoyed it on the whole. I found most if not all the characters were well drawn up, memorable and the dialogue throughout was excellent.

There were some brilliant scenes, the opening with Jocelyn and Edmund was great, as well as when Nurse Kathy and the Arsonist met their fate. The metal plate was an inspired move and that whole scene was so tense.

Also enjoyed the drone coming into play in the last scene to kill off the Doc who seemed to getting away but definitely agree with Carson�s review about this coming into play earlier in the script.

Yes I agree about the middle act being a bit slow especially with such a great first act and the �you get some sleep, we�re talk in the morning� part, which was not good and felt out of place but apart from that�I had no problems. One of my favourite scenes was the exchange between Ambrose and Arroyo on the jet, but in truth, I loved all dialogue in this script.

One thing I would say is the exposition was good IMO, every new bit of information given shed more light on the plot and built the story to its conclusion, it never felt like the author threw it in because the story was lacking and needed something. Every plot point came at the right time for me and I have to say that I was surprised by the reveal of Roger being his own wife�s killer.

A very enjoyable script and I can see why this was so well thought of and got picked up.

For anyone who didn't know. No doubt Scriptshadow played a big role as we all know. Is anyone thinking about doing the Amateur Friday?

http://www.deadline.com/2012/05/universal-buys-the-disciple-program-as-mark-wahlberg-vehicle/

Ghostie

So Universal won the bidding rights. That's great but...

...Mark Wahlberg to star? Don't know about that.

It was a good script and will be fantastic to see it on the big screen.

The story of this script's sale is awesome on several levels.

1) it was a spec script. Granted, the idea stemmed from a contest where they give you the log, but that actually had nothing to do with it's being discovered. It's still a spec.

2) the writer had no industry connections, and did not live in LA.

3) the writer did not have an agent when the script was discovered. Granted, Carson Reeves ended up kind of like an agent with his blog.

4) it's not a perfect script. It's not bullet proof. But it has enough of what studios are looking for.

This is not an impossible industry. If...if...one can write a script that will make a good movie, the odds are they will find work. EVERYONE thinks they can write a great script, and the reality is it's very, very hard. But if you can in fact write one, the odds are better than you think.

One other thing that should encourage people. I remember reading in the interview with Carson that the writer had sent Carson a script a year before, paid Carson for coverage I think. Carson did not care for the script. We all know script opinions are subjective, but what was clear was that Carson felt the writer had really grown in that year. So the key is to find the time and the energy to keep writing. Hopefully this success story fires everyone up!

Quoted from leitskev

Nice post, Kev

I agree that this should encourage or like you say fire everyone up. This was a spec script from a author with no connections although Carson Reeves did help in it's journey no doubt.

What matters most here is that it shows if you have a good enough story which is sellable then there is always a chance and I like the idea of that. :)

Good on Tyler Marceca.