Vampires in Sunland by Kevin Albers (kalbers) - Horror - A small town girl goes to LA to visit her boyfriend and to learn more about her estrange mother's death. When she arrives she learns her boyfriend has befriended vampires and her mother's death is part of a sinister plan to lure her into the arms of a dark power. 136 pages - pdf, format 8)

Hey, Kevin.

I just thought I'd give the first page a read. Although I can't say your writing style is bad, I can tell you now it's very over-written. It took way, way longer for me to read it then it should have. I think that might be the reason for the 140 pages of the script? It also seems like the style is trying too hard to be pro...

Cut this down to a lower number and you might get some reads.

Hi all. First off, let me thank anyone who reads even one line of this script! I appreciate your time! Furthermore, I appreciate all constructive criticism and/or comments. This is my second script I've written and do apologize for the 140 something pages. But that's why I'm here.  From what I've read thus far, this appears to be a great community of writers who are serious in both their work and in helping others succeed in creating better screenplays and becoming better storytellers. Thank you once again. I look forward to reading your comments :)

Best,
Kev

Was about to mention the 140 pages but your clearly aware of that. You are right in saying that this is a place to learn from other writers, good and bad. Will give this a read and get back to you with my feed back.

Hello Kevin.

Right off the bat I see you using the dreaded "We" in the action lines.  From the colossal first page, it seems like you have a grasp on how this all will look but all the camera angles and specifics views should be left out.  All we need are the essentials.

Also, your slug, "SMALL TOWN NORTHERN EAST COAST" is pretty much repeated in the action line which follows.  I would suggest keeping that action line and editing that slug.  By the way, I think you meant to say barred window instead of "bared" window.  Small typo but there it is.

If the rest of the script is like this first page, editing out those camera angles should definitely chop this page count down to size.  Best of luck.

I did not realize the royal "We" was a dreaded one; noted.

There may be a few specific camera directions, but I wouldn't say that this is what's filling out pages.

I'll look at all slugs again.

Yes I'll admit I'm probably going to need an editor on this thing for typos and spelling and what have you, they seem to get by me a little too easily.  So I appreciate the help in that department.

Perhaps I write as I would a shot list... I'm going to need to work on that.

Thank you all for your great input. Please keep it coming, I'm here to learn.

What I mean by the "we" comment is that we as the audience can or should be able to see and hear everything in the action lines.  With that, the "we" is already implied and therefore unnecessary and redundant in the action lines.

Using "we" also has a knack for making writing passive so that's I had to bring it up.  Hopefully this cleared up that particular comment.  Keep up the writing, Kevin.

Hey, I totally understand what you're are saying about "We".  I agree about it being redundant. You are right... I should have been more clear with my "Noted" comment.

Thank you, I hope you can read the rest, or more anyhow.

Best, Kev.

I like the opening scene.  Sets the tone, declares concretely that this is a horror movie.  But I stopped reading after the first scene to address some things already brought up here:

I agree it's over-written.  One thing to keep in mind is that a reader doesn't need extraneous description.  It just gets in the way.  As do actions which take long sentences to describe.  I'll throw out an example.  In the script, you write:

Margot begins to convulse with an epileptic fit, she is
thrown to the ground by her violent jerky thrusts.  She
gargles foam from her mouth.

A strong visual, but would be stronger and a smoother read if you were more deliberate and concise in your wording, which in turn would also cut back drastically on your page count.  What you want, and more importantly, what the reader wants, is a smooth, easy read.  You accomplish this by being using fewer but stronger words to pain the picture.  Omit needless or repetitive details; you mention an epilieptic fit, which most people already know involve violent, jerky thrusts (though not all seizures do).  

So, these things in mind, let's take another shot at that action/description:

Margot crashes to the floor in a violent, spasmic fit,
foaming at the mouth.

It's the same thing, but smoother, more concise and half the space.  If you apply that approach throughout the rest of your script -- keeping things clean, simple and tight, giving only enough detail to get the point across and omitting any and every unnecessary, unfilmable detail -- I can see you easily saving yourself a good 15-20 pages, at least.

Also, pay attention to punctuation.  If you present a reader a script which multiple errors in the first few pages alone, they'll more than likely to assume that if the first few pages are this unprofessional, the rest of the script probably is, too.  And they'll stop reading.  And all your hard work will have been for nothing.

Best of luck.  Keep writing. :)

- Lon

GREAT response Lon. Thank you. This is what I need.

I fear however that no one will go beyond the first page and give me insight into story.

It is very clear, my technical approach is severely flawed. And I hope that this is all that is needed to make for a good script. Tightening lines, correcting punctuation, typos ect. I agree I would never send this off to an agent, producer, etc... without these errors corrected. And I do need help in this area badly so please continue with the comments.... but I must pose the question, will anyone read beyond the first page? Is the 140 pg too daunting? I know I'm new on here and its only been a couple of days so maybe my fears are too premature. But I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Perhaps it is too early for me to have placed this on here.

I'll keep this version on here, but I'm going to start  streamlining this script from a technical stand point. I hope its easy to upload revisions on here.

Thank's everyone for your comments, please keep them coming. :)

Much appreciated!!

Quoted Text I fear however that no one will go beyond the first page and give me insight into story.

Unfortunately, a terrific story isn't worth anything unless it's told well. It takes effort to read a good script and a lot more to read a bad one. I'll try and give this a go, but if I have to slog through 140 pages, it might take me a few days.

Your best bet is to do a rewrite. Fix the errors mentioned and upload the second or third draft. If that draft is closer to 100, then you may get some readers.

140 is too long for anything, especially a horror. Horror scripts, at their best, are shorter than 100 pages. It depends on the specific story, but it better be a damn good one to go beyond 100.

Quoted from KAlbers GREAT response Lon. Thank you. This is what I need. I fear however that no one will go beyond the first page and give me insight into story.

Unfortunately that's pretty much how it goes on sites like this.  Members approach a new writer's script with the same mentality as a professional reader.  Which means the script has ten pages to impress them and if it doesn't, they quit and move on.  I'm just as guilty of this as anybody.  Hell, a lot of pro readers will actually flip through your script before reading a word of it and if they see too many huge chunks of text -- typically an indicator that the script is over-written and/or the writer doesn't grasp the concept of a clean, tight script -- even that's enough to make them not bother.

New writers need to understand that this is pretty much how the biz works.  Whether you're querying an agent, a prodco, an actor or what have you, this is what usually happens.  If they're not convinced you at least have the basics of writing down before page ten, your script quickly finds its way into the "no thanks" pile and the reader simply opens up the next script in line.

So what you do is take all this stuff, apply it to your script, fixing grammatic/format/structure errors, then re-submit your script.  With all those "physical" errors taken care of, there's nothing to distract from or cloud the actual story you're telling, and that's when the good stuff happens.  That's when you get comments on character arcs, dialogue, story structure, etc.  The REAL insight you're looking for.

So give your script another pass, tighten it up, work on the errors pointed out thus far, leaving a reader nothing to stumble over during their journey into your story, then re-submit it.  

You'll be glad you did. :)

- Lon

Also, KAlbers, have you reviewed scripts yet?

We regulars want to know that you're going to give to SS what you take out. The site only works if everyone reviews.

I read the first page and wowzers. Definitely does not follow the one minute per page rule. It's an exciting opening but nothing we haven't seen before. Usually, patients aren't allowed to have anything with them. You also don't follow the "Write what can only be shown" rule. A lot of the script is unfilmable.

I printed it out and went over with a red pen. I hope you don't mind. You probably will.

I can't get the picture to show up here, so you'll have to go to the Flickr page.

http://flic.kr/p/dw2bV1

Hey, thank you for your input... I guess I've been going about this the wrong way... but hey, that's why I put this on here, to get your wisdom and advice, thank you... I'll continue to refine the script, and resubmit.

ABSteel: don't force yourself to read this all the way through if it's too much to digest, but if you can get as far as you can, I still would love to hear your comments.  And yes I comment on other scripts. I may not have the expertise on technique but I offer what I can. I have been reading short scripts but will try to tackle a feature to be fair.

Thanks again,
Best, Kev

Wow, I don't mind at all, this is great and way more than expected, appreciate it!
Sorry,  but what can not be filmed in this scene, if you can give an quick example, it will help me recognize other such lines.

Thanks again!!

I actually didn't look to see if you had reviewed anything. I apologize.

The opening scene and the car scene feel like they're in two different scripts. The car scene is written very well. Great dialogue. The action is a bit clunky in the beginning, but then it flows and when the cop comes, bam! it's clever and jumps off the page. There's conflict in the dialogue and in the action, which is very hard to do. Most people let their dialogue carry the conflict, which is what you don't want.

Now rewrite that first page to be like that car scene, and you've got yourself two great scenes instead of one.

"She once was beautiful but now, looks 20 years older than her age, death warmed over. "

That's not something that can be filmed. How does the audience know she's only 36 but looks 56? Emaciated, frail, skin and bones is a better description than "death warmed over".

First pages and main character introductions can be more flexible with this rule than other pages and characters, but it's good to know what you're doing.

Another smaller example is "in a robe and hospital garb". From that angle, we can only see the robe. We don't know what, if anything, is underneath, so it would just be "in a robe".

You also do the opposite: You describe stuff that hasn't been described. One second, she's wearing a robe and presumably pajamas, and the next they're ripped. Does the shadow rip them? Does she thrash so violently that she rips them? What happens to her clothes?

You need to stay consistent. You first describe the shadow as a shadow and then you describe it as a shadow like figure. Which is it? You really need to clean up the first page. This scene shouldn't be more than half a page long.

Another question that deals with clarity. Does she stare off, out the window, or at the full moon? Or does she stare off and the full moon is in the shot too?

Ahh, okay. Yes I see your point. ABSteel, I will keep this in mind when tightening. I think some discrepancy in description is due to overlapping rewrites of scenes... I'll need to make sure to clean this up and fix it.

See to me these are still visual elements but I think I understand why they are not good visual elements. It is lazy writing. I assume when I write that a character is in a robe and hospital garb, that I set up her wardrobe for the scene, but I guess this is not correct. And Yes I should write her clothing is torn by the shadow.

I guess I meant she stares out the window at the full moon, but for simplistic sake I'll probably change it to she stares out the window. The full moon is not needed.

Awesome, thank you!!

The full moon links us to the car scene, so it's good to keep that in.

Here's how to do that dissolve, by the way.

Her milky white eyeball -

MATCH CUT TO: (formatted on right hand side)

EXT. BUS STATION PARKING LOT - NIGHT

A FULL MOON overlooks a beat up old car with steamy windows.

Does that make sense? And since you're matching two objects, it's a match cut and not a dissolve.

Hmmm, yes that makes sense.  Thanks.

Hey do you have any scripts on here? I would love to read one.

Last Date with Jessica:http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/Jessica2.pdf
Souvenir: http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/SOUVENIR-steel.pdf
Graduation: http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/Graduation.pdf
Agnes: http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/AGNES.pdf

All are short scripts. I haven't been able to write a feature yet. ABSteel is my pen name, and I wrote Agnes for class, so I used my real name. I wrote Jessica first, then Souvenir, Graduation and finally Agnes. All except Graduation have been filmed.

Enjoy :)

Thanks, I look forward to reading them. :)

Kevin, welcome to SS.  It's quite amazing there are now 23 posts on your script, all over Thanksgiving Weekend.

I've read all these posts and see your concern about peeps reading your script.  Well...you've got 17 total posts and 9 of them are on your own thread.  Quid Pro Quo, brother...seriously.  It's the way it works, and you need to jump in.

So, I'll throw out a few thoughts, and I don't mean these to be harsh or mean, just real, so you know.

First off, your logline is pretty bad, including a typo, and that's always a big red flag waving around.

So, then I open your script, and what do I find?  Well, your FADE IN is on the wrong side, so that would have to be Strike 1.  Yeah, I know, that's kind of crappy, and lots of Europeans seem to do this as well, so...OK, I'll overlook that.

We'll overlook the logline and the FADE IN.  We're OK so far.

After the FADE IN comes the first Slug, and it's 2 lines, which you never want to do, especially not to start your script out.  That's Strike 1.

Your first passage starts with "With see...".  That's not good.  Strike 2.

What it is we see isn't very interesting, and it's followed by a completely worthless aside, which I loathe.  Stri...OK, not fair.  I'll go on.

The 2nd passage is...well...it's not good...at all.  There's like 6 mistakes here at a minimum, including incorrect punctuation, "us" reference, unfilmable, misspelling, and the final strike - the fact that all the stuff you intro'd in this room failed to include the 1 thing you now refer to - a chair that Margot is sitting in.  You used 3 almost full lines to describe the room and everything you wrote of didn't come into play.  Know what I'm saying?

I did scan ahead and I see lots and lots of problems and issues.

I honestly think if you read some scripts in here, you'll see things that work, things that don't work, and maybe you'll start to realize why.  And you can always ask questions.  Seems like you've got a great attitude, so that's half the battle.  Start posting wherever you can so peeps get to know you.  It will help.

Hope my words make sense and aren't viewed as being overly harsh.

Take care, man.

Dreamscale, you didn't think the car scene was much better than the first?

I didn't make it to the car scene.

The way you start out is so important.  This had major mistakes on all of the first 10 lines, and for me, that lets me know exactly what I'm in for.

I don't mean to be a dick, but that's how I honestly feel.

Alrighty then.

Okay, well I'm definitely learning on this site... Some with a harsher tone than others. But That's good, all is welcome.

Dreamscale: I'm a little confused with your comments, I get the gist but not the point. If you've read all the comments, you should know that you bring nothing new to the discussion other than sounding angry and offended by my writing. My apologizes. I realize I'm not a pro. That is why I'm here, perhaps this is not the right forum to learn how to better myself as a scriptwriter?

Also it seems you have issues with more than just my script? But, with the activity of the posts them selves? Makes me believe you came in with a loaded gun, ready to shoot it down, before giving a fair chance to someone's work. Maybe I'm just reading into things here, so I apologize. If you do have issues and I'm doing something wrong, can you please be more clear, so I don't step on other people's toes. This is not my intention.

I stand corrected, you did bring something new, the issue of my logline, I will see if I can improve that. Thank you!!

Best, Kev

To be honest, I didn't read your logline all the way through.

It's messy and includes too much information. Narrow the logline down to the main story. Protagonist has a goal and the antagonist creates conflict, and then the end happens. That's the basic logline formula, but there are many different ways to write one.

No preloaded gun, Kevin.

I think if you read what I said again, you will see new information there, other than just the logline.

My main point is that you need to read other scripts and provide feedback, and if you're wondering why more aren't reading your script, there are 3 big reasons why - it's Thanksgiving weekend, it's poorly written and ridiculously long (and overwritten), and you don't really deserve reads because you're not reading others.

Sorry if I come off harshly.  Sometimes I guess I'm like that.

Dreamscale,

I have been reading other scripts on SS and writing comments, it's the first thing I did when I joined. I understand the concept of give and take. I may not have the same expertise that you may have, but I write what I can. And honesty without harshness does exist in criticism. Harsh tones, will cloud your point as chunky wording will cloud the story.

You seem to have a great deal of expertise, I wish you could share that with someone who clearly needs it like myself.

You also misunderstood the question I ask about my script, or you kinda did anyhow. It wasn't "why aren't people reading my scrip?"  It's for those who do, are they going to bother going past the first scene? Or is the script so over-written and chunky that no one will bother? (by the couple of really good answers I got) I thought this was clear.  It was a question of what am I to expect on this forum, so that I can make a plan to improve upon this process.

I've read some of your reviews and you really do seem to know what you're talking about, I wish you could pass some of that wisdom my way. But perhaps my draft is too green for that.

Best,
Kev

Kev, I saw a recent review from you and that's great.  Exactly what I'm talking about.  Your comments were even well conceived.  SS likes peeps like you, so keep on keeping on.

The peeps that get the reads and the help are those that go above and beyond, and/or just seem to have a really good attitude.

I always want to help and I think I gave you lots of good advice.  I don't have a problem with you, man.  If you have any questions on what I said, just ask.

Since the topic of the logline came up, here's what a typical logline needs to be effective:

1. Main character/ protagonist
2. That character's goal
3. An obstacle to the character achieving that goal (this could be an antagonist or a personal flaw)
4. What's at stake; what the character stands to lose, or what negative outcome may occur if they fail in their goal
5. 30 words or less.

Bonus: the hint of an ironic twist, if there is one.

Personally I think loglines are great practice.  It teaches the writer to be expedient and concise, enabling them to deliver all necessary information in a short amount of space, and in a dramatic, attention-grabbing fashion.  If you can write a good logline, it will only improve how you write your screenplay.

My two cents.

Lon, I'll take your two cents any day! Thank you! I am going to work on my logline.

Jeff, thank for your time in reading the script. I will review your initial comments again. I'll try my best to tidy up the script, correct the errors and perhaps we can revisit it again in another draft. Thank you!!

I'm happy to have found this site!! :)

Hey Kevin. I just started reading your script. I saw vampire and clicked onto it. I have only gotten a few pages in, so I really have no input yet. I can say though that I read through this thread to see what others have said. And so far i can see what they are saying about some things being over writter. However, I love the over writing. I know it may not be industry norm or accepted, but I always prefer a lot of description. I love to visualize what I am reading. Maybe that is why I like reading books.

See, you and I seem to be the same. Over writing. The one script I recently finished, well, I seem to have over written a lot. I didn't think it was a problem since I believe in showing detail. But I guess it isn't all that necessary when script writing. I am still going over my script trying to figure out where to cut out the access.

I am new to all this, so I don't if I can give as good a review as the seasoned pros. I may only be able to let you know if I like the story, can follow it, and what not. I hope I can be of some help as I need to really start reviewing other scripts here so I can get mine posted and commented on.

The one thing I do want to ask everyone though: how important is it that we start WE SEE in the description? I know I have seen shooting scripts (online anyway) where the descrition gives camera direction and what is being shown on screen (usually stating WE SEE or THE CAMERA PANS THE SKYLINE, etc...). I thought it was not needed and shouldn't be done until the director/producer/writer get a shooting script copy together.