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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board  /  Horror Scripts  /  Lychanthrope
Posted by: Don, December 4th, 2012, 10:25am
Lychanthrope by Will Jonassen - Horror - Revitalizing the werewolf with a new take on a classic genre, and pushing the norm from their current archetypes to something darker and more abstract, this is a story that returns to the metaphor of the dark side of man's soul. While true to the subgenre's rules, it turns, and takes us down the hole by examining the dangers inherent when people fail to communicate and find some harmony in the face of their problems - in the face of a monster. Through the eyes of this small town and a force of nature, insanity, we see the werewolf reborn.    120 pages - pdf, format 8)
Posted by: dethmyke, December 4th, 2012, 1:50pm; Reply: 1
Hello, I've read up to page 16 of your script that's got my attention. I love a good horror story regarding werewolves. What time frame is this story from? it feels like the 80's or earlier. but I love your description in your action lines which to me is on point. Solid writing skills so far. I though there should of been a bit more blood shed in the description of the beast killing its victims, but I'm a gore fan. I will read more of you script later today.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), December 4th, 2012, 6:32pm; Reply: 2
Hey Will, I don't recognize your name, so I'll be brief until you show up.

Lots of problems here, bro..lots of problems.

Title page will turn most off, as it's far from standard.

"FADE IN:" goes on the left side, not the right.

Opening Slug is problematic, and you stay here far too long, meaning your action is not within the "CAMP FIRE" Slug.

Your font is incorrect and will cause most to immediately stop reading.

Not sure why you'd want to bold all your dialogue boxes - incorrect again.

You've got 2 totally unnecessary wrylies on the first page alone - use sparingly and only when necessary.

Finally, you need to turn off those annoying "CONTINUED" on the top and bottom of every page.

If you show up and read and provide feedback to others, you'll get lots of help here.  If you don't...well...then, you won't.

Best of luck.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), December 4th, 2012, 6:35pm; Reply: 3
Will,

First thing that caught my eye was the length, but according to your logline I'm sure you're aware of it.

The logline, by the way, is not good at all. I like the idea of "werewolves are reborn", but other than that you didn't give us anything about a story. Not to mention "to be edited" is not something you want to see on a script. For the most part, don't post your work until it's as perfect as you can make it.

Don't use the giant font on your title page. Apparently this belongs to a production company, but it's tentative? What?

So the script's overall presentation raised some red flags. I've written three paragraphs and I haven't even gotten to the actual script. Make sure your script's presentation is perfect, since script readers are looking for any excuse to stop reading (or not read at all).

So onto the actual script... Like I said, I like the concept, but I was disappointed when I saw all the italics, the right-aligned FADE IN:, CONTINUED at the top and bottom of each page, and all the BOLD headings/character names (which some people like, others don't).

But, on the bright side, the writing is better than I originally thought.

It could use tightening, though. A lotta unfilmables here. How do we know they're local teenagers? How do we know they're on their third date? Only write what we see on film. (And it doesn't seem like an awkward date, IMO.)

"Some of them chat or fool around. The rest are drunk, rowdy, and making a mess. They break bottles and shout at the trees." Could be shortened. Are we paying attention to individual teens chatting, and watching others throw beer bottles, or are we seeing the blur of a noisy crowd around a fire?

And again... "Janey takes in the night before returning. She feels the cold chill of the air and shivers. Behind her beckons the warm, dancing light of the fire, which is obscured by dark trees." You could remove this paragraph altogether. All we see on film is a girl looking over her shoulder. We have no way of seeing her "take in the night" or the warm "beckoning to her."

"Janey turns to him, ready now, and they kiss.
Tommy places soft kisses all over, and she closes her eyes."

What purpose does the second paragraph serve? And how do we know she's "ready now?" Make her grin or something, because otherwise you're telling instead of showing.

Some of the parentheticals are redundant, not to mention they annoy some people. I'd leave out obvious things like "(shocked)" and "(piggishly)". You also used (beat) a lot, which also bugs people. I think it has its uses, but a lot of times it's redundant.

"After a thought, he lets her go to have a look around." You're telling and not showing. Cut this line altogether.

"Something's watching us. I can feel it." A bit on the corny side. Same for ""Let’s get out of here. I’m sorry! We should really just go now."

"In charge, Janey takes off without waiting for his response.
Tommy takes a few hesitant steps, then follows once more." Cut. Instead, something like "Tommy takes a few steps, then follows."

So, like I expected, this 139-page script is overwritten and redundant a lot of times. Not that it's a bad script...I like the concept, and your writing is good-- but it needs to be tightened. Only write what we see on screen; Show, don't tell.

So, I'd like to read another, tightened non-italic draft of this, since I dig real werewolves. It's about time someone brings back a wolfman who doesn't hang out with a sparkling emo.

Good job completing 139 pages, though. Longer than anything I've written. Now, just tighten it.

-Other Will
Posted by: Lon, December 5th, 2012, 1:57am; Reply: 4
^^^ What they said.  You really need to nail down proper spec script format and language and give this puppy another go.  It's a bitch, I know, but you must be dogged in your application of format or your script will be the runt of the litter.  Don't put yourself in the doghouse; bone up on format.

Canine.
Posted by: dethmyke, December 6th, 2012, 2:05pm; Reply: 5
Hello again; I've completed your script which I have to give you a thumbs up on the effort it took in completing a script of 139 pages. With that said, I love the story. Now I'm not the type who's going to point out every error that's made. I'm more into the story and characters. But after reading the script, it felt like I was reading a novel instead. My opinion, you should turn it into a book. You’re going to find on this form that the  well-established critics are going to slice your script with a fine knife.  Some aren’t going to be nice about it.

A couple of things;

1) You need to cut down the pages of your script. The first two scenes is about 16 pages long together which fine if you’re writing a book.

2) There are pages that have action or description lines with no dialog. If this was an action move like Indiana Jones cool, but in horror your dialog has to be as good as the action, they go hand in hand.

2) Your action lines need to be written where the audience can see it what you’re talking about. Most of your lines are descriptive to what the character is either thinking, believes, or their intensions. Those are the type of lines a producer reading your script can't see and most likely place your script in that unwanted pile .

But like I said I love the story. You should think about turning it into a novel.
Posted by: alffy, December 6th, 2012, 4:32pm; Reply: 6
This could be completely useless information but in a 139 page script I expected a lot of dialogue which would actually mean a shorter running time on film but having quickly checked this out there seems to be minimal dialogue throughout the entire script.  This could actually mean the script is even longer than the 2 hour 20 minutes it appears to be.  There are times when you have 5- 6 pages without a single word spoken.  I'm not saying this is wrong but it could indicate that you may be able to trim some pages by working on your action scenes.  At its present length you may struggle for reads.
Just my opinion.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), December 6th, 2012, 5:03pm; Reply: 7
It's way overwritten - probably close to 40%.

It's also very passive.

Where's the writer????????
Posted by: WillJonassen, December 6th, 2012, 5:12pm; Reply: 8
Sorry it took so long to reply, but I just completed the registration for the board, today.

First, wow you guys. I think all of this is the perfect advice, and I'm in agreement with almost all of it, with few gray areas. You all are exactly the kinds of hard-nosed, well-informed, sticklers for format that I was hoping to hear from. I couldn't have asked for a better frame of reference in getting the gears turning again on perfecting what is a new craft for me. Actually, I did ask (sort of), but I received. For sure, I will be looking at other's scripts to help with critique and discussion, as that should help with learning a lot more, making it solid, and for what I'm sure will be great inspiration. I'm actually an animation student, not a film student, trained in a wide range of concepts regarding 2D and 3D animation crossing many applications, with foundations in design, photography, storyboarding, and some screenwriting. Much of how I present characters and action in something geared for film, like this, may be influenced by this background. It definitely is, I'm sure, where I'm considering more squash and stretch type ideas, and probably disconnected from the idea of working with a living actor in some ways. Having exposure to your critiques, and all the work on this site, can do nothing but help, I think.

Let me address the first steps to setting it right, and then I would like to share a little about where this whole thing came from. I have all ready begun making changes along the lines presented above, in all of your posts. I hope to have a highly revised version updated and posted very soon, and have made huge strides so far. I use finaldraft pro ver.8, and actually, the big font and format changes are as easy as a few clicks of a button. I'm all over this one, I promise. In fact, just changing the font from italics to regular reduced the length by almost two pages somehow, just like that. The other changes are - and will continue, I'm sure - to shorten the length even further. There are multiple reasons why it came out so long, and with the format it did, but I will try to address you one at a time.

Dethmyke. Thanks man! I almost think you are too kind, but I'm glad I was able to reach you through the story. So far, you are the only person who has recommended "more gore," where the typical response has been something like, "holy crap, that's really violent." Ha! You may have noticed, I gave to the gore fans a little bit more as the story went on, with things like the wolf's tendency to pretty much want to be dead before he transforms, as for him, these are painful and violent. What's great about your posts, for me, is that you went beyond the first act to take in the narrative as a whole, which is where my real contribution to the thing really lies. I've always been interested in writing something in a novel format, and do think in those terms, often. That said, it doesn't do to have anyone feeling like they should put this script down in the first few pages due to some format issues, and so I need to address Dreamscale and Crookedowl, too. They're right on the money with those concerns.

Dreamscale, Crookedowl, the two of you have single (or double) handedly settled debates that have raged on this screenplay for months, between myself, the concept creator, concept artists, and fellow students. Working my way through the Animation program at school, I came to an impass, and began searching for ways expand my portfolio and prepare for graduation. At the same time, my mom entered into a crisis with cancer, and in the process of dealing with that, losing much, I have been put in a position where I have actually had to initiate a lawsuit against the school. It is for many, many reasons, lost money and negligence, but also a sub-standard education provided, all-around, that does not meet the industry standards of any department. They graduate game-art students who have never heard of texture baking, interior designers who can't get licenses to practice, graphics designers who owe up to ninety thousand dollars passed off to tattoo shops and then written up as having gotten into their career fields, and screenwriters who have never been shown the truest industry standard format for a script. It has turned class-action, as a result, with other students able to make claims as they need to. Still, I began storyboarding for a senior student film, from which I was promoted to Assistant Director. I then became AD on a second senior film, which won awards for writing and best visual effects in the Tampa Film Festival and student showcases. From this, my roommate and I were handed a 90-page werewolf script to edit and play with as we saw fit. My friend and would-be co-writer was so discouraged by the poor quality of this thing, that he stepped down. He has since moved out of state. The concept came from a guy who was sold to us as being a close personal friend of Tom Savini (of dawn of the dead, dusk til dawn fame, currently working with Tarantino, and the reason why the direction of this goes almost to that style at some points. It was originally almost pure girndhouse, and while that's not really my style, I still wanted to reach out to them and blend it where I could), however, that did not to turn out to mean any actual experience or knowledge of this industry on his part, but more of a hard-line insistence that he does. The italics in all of the action lines are a relic of his original, for example, as are many of the format errors. One of my biggest focuses then, so far, has been on totally re-creating the narrative, and clearing up the pretty massive continuity errors, which I still worry could be present in some subconscious way where his original ideas still remain. All along, there has been much about these things that did not "feel" right, and were even gone at points (some old drafts), but remained, ultimately, both to satisfy his wishes for his "baby," and find a middle-ground on these debates, where the opinion was along the lines of, "yeah, it's not standard, but it's my style and I think it could help a speed reader see the important parts better." I do have terrible eyesight, myself, and enjoyed just a few of the bolds where you guys did not, but found the italics to actually be a real hindrance on getting this edited properly. It really messed with the flow in a way that stands out a whole lot, now that I've just put my foot down and am going all the way with trying it how you all have described, here.

Let me discuss the original, quickly. Ninety pages... a good, solid, effort of passion. Generally, the first thing that stood out to me, is that it objectified the female characters in a way terrible to my values for good film-making, bordering on soft-core pornography. It did not have a three act structure. At all. He had not heard of the three act structure. It had absolutely no conflict whatsoever. He had a general sense that he liked the idea of a sheriff character (originally named "Kelley"), because he saw something like that on True Blood, and he liked the idea that the werewolf also be a crazy killer as a man, because he liked the Joker from Batman. The "twist" of the story, is that even though the sheriff and the reporter characters were always snippy with each other, they were actually married, and around the middle of the movie, we go to their white-picket fence house, with dog and pick-up truck (no joke), and then in the last half, the big conflict is the arrival of some reality tv/monster hunter show from out of town who kind of gets in the way of the reporter's story. The wolfman wants on the show, actually, and makes some deal with the mayor and police chief (yes, the sheriff answered to a police chief... think about that), gets on it, bites a guy, and transforms on national television, but luckily, in the last ten pages, some upstanding citizens decided to reward the sheriff for all his fine service with a gift - sent in the mail - of six silver bullets. Boom, boom, the wolves are all dead. All characters got along wonderfully the entire time, flirting and joking, and everything ended up fine. It was this basic cheesiness that became the hardest thing to cleanse from it, especially in the dialogue, which you have all picked up on, naturally. I did it through visuals inspired by things way outside of the classic werewolf genre and horror pacing, like Wes Anderson's style, the Cohen Brother's type of character depth, and Nicolas Winding Refn (of Bronson, Drive, and Valhalla Rising notoriety) visuals, but it did not always lead to great dialogue, still, as there were some parts that he was adamant about remaining true to. I found I could appreciate that, and tried to give it a pace where the audience might believe they are receiving the norm, and then either just not give it to them, or give it my own take based on my personal life experiences. One example is my choice to get rid of silver bullets all-together, and go with an IED made from silver. Another, is a massive expansion on his scene where he had the wolfman eating ice cream for some reason, and meeting with the reporter to taunt her with all this information he has about the "lychanthrope killer," so he could get close to her. I wrote that as almost a mushroom trip, instead, where he's barely even connected with reality, and their meeting is only in passing... their contact, only creepy and bizarre. Speaking of "Lychanthroops" I can barely even pronounce it. Nevermind the title page, I can hardly even stand the title. It's... indicative of the ultimate problem with this... starting at a fairly low point, and reaching very high with it, where not all of its concepts have attained their full height at this point. I think they can, though.

I should finish with my own thoughts on my most current version, and direct answers to your other questions....       tbc...
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), December 6th, 2012, 6:31pm; Reply: 9
Hey Will good to see you chime in...and in great detail, as well.  Nice.

Hey, listen, first things first...are you writing this as an R or PG13 rated script? If you're going the R route, which I always advise, you will definitely want your readers and viewers to know that right away, meaning, you want some gore, you want some explicit language, and you'll also want some nudity and sex sprinkled throughout.

Not sure if you're aware or not, but the general rule of thumb, which you definitely want to try and adhere to, is that 1 page of text equals 1 minute of film.  It doesn't work on a page by page basis, but overall, if your writing is good, it will ring true.  So, with that in mind, that's why your page length is a major issue currently.  A 100 page script plays out to an hour and 40 minute flick.  In this genre, you really shouldn't be over 110 pages, and most will tell you to shoot for around 90.  But, you need to see this in your head and come up with an idea of how long it should run.

I haven't read it, so I don't know what actual scenes need cutting, but I can tell you just from reading your opening, you're probably writing at about 140% of what you should.  And that really means the way you're writing, the choices you make in deciding to give detail about things, orphans, passage length, etc.

It all takes awhile to get a handle on but for writers who already know how to write, it shouldn't take you too long to figure it out.
Posted by: WillJonassen, December 6th, 2012, 6:39pm; Reply: 10
Also, Dethmyke.... it's not the 80's, but maybe a town trapped in the 80's.

It's pretty neat you touched on that, though. Because I had "Drive," and "Bronson" by Nicholas Winding Refn playing in the background fairly often during some of the deeper parts of this writing, and how heavily influenced by the 80's both of those films are, I wonder if on some level that feeling might have come through? Something subconscious?

It's based on a real town here in Florida, though. Sanford, or maybe some other north-Florida area. It was the original idea-guy, Rick, who wanted it to be in Florida. The other writer wanted Colorado. I ended up actually steering it towards some parts of North Florida as a sort of compromise, and I know the areas well. There really are places like this, cut off from the world, sort of, and just weird. I don't want to give the town a name, though. I don't want to even give the main characters names.

I've seen that pulled off well, before... and I like it. It's intentional, and based on a trend in some more artsy films to just leave it open. In any version of this, there will always be, necessarily, many questions that will not always be answered, unless someone is just in the know of a thing. There are a lot of little easter-eggs as well... lots of little fight-club-esque easter eggs that a viewer might not find for the first few watches, or reader find on a first read through. Others are for security, and others, still, are for the ideas proposed regarding sequel, prequel, and graphic novel concepts. I hope that answers your questions. Thanks a lot for completing the whole thing!
I know that was a marathon read... a ton. I really appreciate that.

Dreamscale: I would have to say this would be an R script, by the way... and that's some good stuff to think about. It's currently full of cussing and violence to a pretty extreme extent in places, that I have actually worried/expected, and even set up to be cut, possibly. The Southpark writers, Tray Parker and Matt Stone, gave the great advice that when dealing with the ratings people, overdo it at first. Go over the top with it, and what they cut for taste, will actually be closer to what you probably really wanted all along.
Just a nugget of wisdom for all to think about.

I do know of the 1 to 1 ratio on pages versus time, and have been wrestling with that mentally... it's almost like I've been working on the shindler's list of werewolf movies, and that's... just no good. No fun, even... (kind of fun, but nonsense, ultimately) I totally agree.... Still, your first tip with the italics, and my tendencey to overuse wrylies as you called them, pushed me over on that ratio, alone, all along. I think in the form you see, it's more like 2 or 3 to 1, and your advice has helped me get it back towards the proper 1 to 1 all ready. I'm going to see where that takes it, push it a little further, and aim to have an update of this match with that better formatting... to "bone up on it," as Lon put it.

Thanks again!
Posted by: dethmyke, December 7th, 2012, 7:37am; Reply: 11
Hello again. I reason why I asked if the script takes place in the 80's is because I'm currently writing a horror / werewolf script called "The Blood Thirsty Winter." That takes place in the 80's. For some strange reason the 80's song "Waiting For a Girl Like You" by Foreigner is suck in my head whenever I'm working on the script. I think werewolf movies that's made in the 80's genre are the best like "Wolfen," "The Howling," or "American Werewolf in London." I hope you write a squeal to this script.
Posted by: dethmyke, December 7th, 2012, 5:42pm; Reply: 12
Hey, from reading your script you're a talented writing. Take a look at my script titled Gingerbread.  I need to make some improvement on it but you'll be able to see what I'm referring to rtegarding action lines.

Another piece of advise is to read other people's scripts. You'll find some really good scripts that help me out to be a better writer.
Posted by: WillJonassen, December 13th, 2012, 7:18pm; Reply: 13
Will do!  

I guess parts of the site were down there for a bit (or was it just me?), but I'm just about finished revising this script thanks to the great advice given by all of you.

I remember having a great English teacher who really left an impression on me that drives me this day, so I would have her to thank if something like this ever goes anywhere. When it comes to perfecting things, I've found that not only being educated, but turning around and trying to re-educate, or teach, is the best way to learn. I know that goes with an old cliche, but it's true. I will be going down as many of the listings of unproduced scripts I find, trying to provide as much thoughtful feedback as I can,
just as soon as I can.

It's funny, but some of the professional, high-level scripts posted on here, like Wes Anderson's "Moonrise Kingdom," can be quite a mess by the hard standards given in most critiques. I realize those are probably early and not final drafts, but it's interesting to see they were all at certain level of "needing work," at some point. Even the best aren't perfect, in other words, but I think that's what gets them pushing on the razor's edge of creativity and originality, that some people confined to rigid formula, only, may not grasp as fully. We can only hope...

Gingerbread, as a title, is certainly fitting for this time of year, and it will be a priority on my reading list, probably in just a couple of hours when I have finsished submitting my new lychanthrope pdf to the admins. Take care, dood!  
Posted by: dethmyke, December 14th, 2012, 8:33pm; Reply: 14
I'm going to read your script again this weekend!
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), December 14th, 2012, 11:37pm; Reply: 15

Quoted Text
A script born out of an original concept simply meant to be edited


This tells me that your script is first draft, Will.  A lot people hear don't want to read first drafts; they just to problematic.


Phil
Posted by: WillJonassen, December 21st, 2012, 1:38pm; Reply: 16
Almost! I meant I was the editor, literally. I was meant to just do grammar, but took over the whole story as it had huge holes. Still, what you first saw before my re-post was about a second draft, or so. I hit that wall as a student, where I really needed that boost to push it to the next level. I've gotta say, between Crookedowl's and Dreamscale's posts, with other's, I think I found that push. Their advice made immediate improvements, all around, and I'm extremely proud of what it's become over just this last week.

I'm glad to say, that the newest version (and most final, probably, that I would like to put on the internet), will be posted in the next series, along with an 8-page short called Pendulum that I've also implemented those tips on... with equally helpful results.

The actual writing process, however, is my own, where Rick's input and opinions were included wherever I felt they could be (with respect to his love of the genre, and his "baby"). It's huge length probably had to do with fitting in so much from two minds clashing. The next you will find to be at a proper length and of more proper format, as best as I could manage.

In the future, of course, I will have a much better concept for what passes as readable on this site, and should be able to achieve those goals, now known, before posting any work. Thanks for the honesty, though!

What do you think of the new log-line? Still too unspecific and theme-driven, or am I getting closer?

Take care, dood, and keep those eyes peeled for the new work, and better log-lines! I'm making the rounds to as many other's scripts as I can get feedback to, as well, and will remain an active participant for as long as I'm able.  
Posted by: Lon, December 22nd, 2012, 6:35am; Reply: 17
Gotta lose the entire script being in Italic, bro.  Courier or Courier New only; no bolds, no italics, etc.  Though some writers have taken to bolding their scene headings; judgment call, I suppose, but traditionally, it's not welcome.

That said, it's still over-written.  You're describing in detail things that don't matter, such as the physical set up and location of each vehicle and character in the opening party scene.  Take a look at the first four paragraphs and strip them down to the essentials.  And watch your SLUGLINES; a CAMPFIRE isn't a location.

EXT. FIELD - NIGHT

A full moon hangs over teenagers partying around a campfire on
the edge of a forest.  Music blaring, kids hooting and hollering,
vehicles scattered about.  Lovebirds TOMMY and JANEY make out
on a blanket near Tommy's truck.


So there are your first four paragraphs distilled down to four lines.  In spec script writing, think broad strokes.  Conveying the general idea and ix-naying the unimportant details.  Let the director stage and block the scene and determine which kids are going to be sitting where and all that.

For a great example of how to write action/narratives, check out Brian Helgeland's script for L.A. Confidential and compare it to the actual film.  You'll see that his action/narratives are about as bare-boned as it gets, yet that didn't prevent the director, cinematographer and set decorator from filling every screne with rich detail -- because that's their job.  Yours as the writer is to tell the story.  You give us the meat and potatoes; let the director worry about how to arrange them on the plate.

Damn.  Now I'm hungry.

Anyway, if you approach the rest of your script with that in mind you'll drastically whittle down that 138 page count, which is WAY too long for a spec script.  If one page of script equals one minute of film, you're talking about an almost two-and-a-half hour long werewolf movie, and you don't have two-and-a-half hour's worth of story here.

Keep at it.  You'll get there. :)

- Lon

EDIT -- sorry, I just noticed you mention that it's still the old script.  Ah, well...
Posted by: WillJonassen, December 23rd, 2012, 2:32pm; Reply: 18
The newer version is up... still recognizing that the writing is more of a novel-like prose, but with way fewer unfilmables and paras, you can see how vastly improved that advice has made it, opening up a clearer narrative and more proper length.
Posted by: Hugh Hoyland, January 3rd, 2013, 2:50pm; Reply: 19
Hello WillJonassen!

I just wanted to update my progress on your script. I'm up to page 20 (Really just started).

Now some people will talk about your writing style as being "overly writen" or to "novel like" or something to that effect. I actually like this style of writing. I call it "cumulative" or using the "cumulative sentence". Dont know if thats what you intend but thats how I read it. I ordered a DVD course in writng from a professor at an Iowa university and this is the style the teacher taught so it works fine for me in a screenplay.  
Now as to the story so far I'm digging it. It starts out with a good and gory Teens/young people getting killed at a party scene. Its a fast start and we dont waist any time getting to it. Sure its been done before, but works fine here IMO. Then we meet the surly Sheriff and his crew and continued menace from a bear. Good stuff. And of course the nosey reporter (wonder what happend there? lol will find out later Im sure)
As I said I'm just now getting into the script so I'll post a full review when I'm done. Just wanted to let you know what I think so far. Keep up the good work.

HGW
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), January 3rd, 2013, 6:28pm; Reply: 20
Other Will, I've seen you popping up around here lately, which is good. Review scripts to get your script reviewed... And writing reviews is a great way to improve your own writing as well.

I already have some notes regarding the first ten pages on my other computer, but I got sidetracked over the holidays. I'll finish this when I get a chance.

All I can say so far is, this is a big improvement from the last draft. Still needs work, but you're on the right track. More notes to come...

Will
Posted by: WillJonassen, January 5th, 2013, 4:07am; Reply: 21
Crookedowl.... I feel I might even be able to still recognize the areas you would personally want to see re-touched, in this. You're advice was/is fantastic, but in my writing and with a work of this length, hitting all those paras and unfilmables just so is like swatting a room-full of flies. One or two of the buggers always get away, and just pop up again.   :)  It's been extremely enlightening, though, and shocking what it did with the length.

Keep in mind, I come from directing and animation experience rather than a pure writer, and it gets so damned hard to meddle with certain lines that I think are part of the essence of the whole. Even hidden double meanings here and there like poetry, and easter-eggs just for people "in the know..." This is tailored to a very specific demographic, in other words. I hope the broad audience might get it and find things to like, but only a very specific - very focused on a certain culture - portion of the audience, will walk out having gotten this thing fully, I think, and that's exactly what I am hoping for. Think... Syd Barrett. Think the old Pink Floyd. Think punk rock. Think Tool. Not for those who don't/can't get it, in a way. In the face of them, but not for them. This script is meant to be jazz, then, where "it's the notes you don't hear," in many, many ways.
Does that help clarify the intent, when judging the product? You're reviews have been great, absolutely.

(PS: on the other works where I see you, which is practically every one, you're my virtual critic now, or news write-up, where you pretty much set the standard for what I'm really about to see. Haha, it's great)

Hugh... man, thanks! I love the impressions you're sort of glancing at so far. You might be the first to be responding to the rhythms and trickery I was trying to employ.

Don't overlook, though... well, the "jazz" thing from above, but also, this is very much as if Wes Anderson and Nicholas Winding Refn had a meeting, with the Cohen Brothers as consultants, and decided to collaborate on a classically true werewolf story, with abstractions like the main characters not having names and so on. Doing that feels right, because in an abstract way, as characters, they are two sides of the same person. The reporter is two people in one, in the reverse (people I really knew). The others represent a general sense of disconnection and uncaring, unempathetic/self-centered stupidity so prevalent in this world. I'd be interested to see if any of those subtleties come out as you go along, or do you really take something else entirely out of it, like to the core werewolf tale or some other social thing? If not that, is the action or arc natural and satisfying? Entertaining? For me, it takes what you know, like teens in the woods, and warps it as it goes, it's my hope. By Act 2, you should see the jazz aspect at work, kinda. Also, it's a bit of a character piece/personality study. I feel like some voice in my head wrote it, really, so I don't know.

A line that appears late in the story, for example, where reporter Melanie James is at the hotel:

"She makes a retching motion - finger in mouth - to the wall. It doesn't react."

Seems like a joke at first glance, and it is (it's a joke just for the crew, almost, being so away from normal), that I laugh at every time. I forget it's there, then come across it, and just laugh and laugh.... but I do feel I literally want to see a shot of the wall on screen, somehow, being a wall and not reacting. I think a talented and eccentric enough actress like a Shannyn Sossamon might pick up on that immediately, and even make a small face at the wall's lack of response. This is because she is such a judgmental person as a character, she would even judge a wall. It's an essential part of her. I could never take that out as silly as it sounds. That's the sort of fine line I'm walking that I hope people might pick up on as they read, or overlook and find something totally different in it.  

It's made to be so subjective, I would not be surprised if ten different people ended up with ten entirely different points of view, and I would absolutely love that result.
Posted by: WillJonassen, January 10th, 2013, 12:02am; Reply: 22
"You... In all things in your life, in every moment lived, are in preparation for something important: your poetry and your writing can not, if it is of any quality, be written to reassure or to entertain. If you have been chosen, living perpetually in a condition of fire, your life's effort now is to create some small part of the Sublime...

Here, if the writer has accepted his or her creativity and goes forward toward a constant condition of inner fire (burning bright), that writer will lose the ability, forever, to remain 'in the moment' (as we say today). Every action, external and internal, every interaction, every emotion, every reaction, will be coldly observed as if by Yeats's stony Sphinx with its gaze blank and pitiless as the sun...

Your parent dies. You hurt. You weep. You mourn. You do and say the necessary things even as your disciplined askesis has you (against your will) coldly taking notes on what the emotion feels like, how others around you react to the death, what the corpse of your parent looks like, how you feel while looking down at it, what voids there are in that feeling, what pretenses, what posturings... Are you the clay or the hand? Both?

You make love. You surrender to physical sensation and emotional connection. But your mind's cold burden of kinesis has you taking notes even as the sensations surround and overwhelm you, even as the emotions wash over you like high waves washing across a black-pebbled beach. What physical absurdities and efforts of the moment?

What held back? What given and what more never given? Thus, we can watch the most nihilistic and hopeless play in the history of human mimetic art. The worst of our fears have been faced and shown baldly and brilliantly: our fate is fickle except for the absolute certainty of loss and inevitable nothingness. And yet, through the art of a man dwelling with his daemons perpetually, we are consoled - even strengthened - by even the hardest truth when written by a hand on fire.

'Men scarcely know how beautiful fire is.'  P.B. Shelley"  

- by Dan Simmons, On Writing -    
Hugo Award winning Author of The Hyperion Cantos


"How, my dear Mary, -- are you critic-bitten
(For vipers kill, though dead) by some review,
That you condemn these verses I have written,
Because they tell no story, false or true?
Why, though no mice are caught by a young kitten,
May it not leap and play as grown cats do,
Till its claws come? Prithee, for this one time,
Content thee with a visionary rhyme..."

-from P.B. Shelley's The Witch of Atlas -
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), February 16th, 2013, 1:50am; Reply: 23
*** SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS! YOU’VE BEEN WARNED! ***

Other Will,

I kinda feel bad for taking so long with my review. I got sidetracked with other stuff… but hey, at least it's here now. The notes get pretty detailed (as far as my reviews go) so I hope this helps.

All right, so I see what you mean about the writing, and how many "overwritten" lines can set a tone to this. That said, there are still some lines that could be shortened without losing the meaning.

See, when I say overwritten, I don't mean descriptive. Overwritten is when you use too many words to say something, causing the line to take up more space than it should. When something like "The body lands in the campfire. She shrieks" is written as "The body lands in the massive bonfire, in the flames. She shrieks loudly, in terror."

Basically, it's when an extra word or two don't add anything to the tone/story/characters etc. You can get the same meaning and vibe without using the "extra" words.

A lot of things like "looks at him with a predatory smile" and "She BURPS in a way only a woman can, with a graceful bounce" are fine when used a few times, as they definitely add a tone. But soon they add up and instead of adding to the tone, they distract.

Another thing that may give the effect of overwriting is the use of long sentences-- "He POPS it open to take a long swig with Janey watching him, but can’t get it all down, and chokes"-- that could be broken down into shorter sentences.

Another thing… An issue I first noticed around the ten page mark. It's just so damn long. Some parts, I lose interest, find myself doing other things. If you look at every page individually… not very much happens. A big thing is the writing, because it's so descriptive sometimes it takes up a lot of room. What would normally be a four minute opening kill becomes eight pages. It takes an entire page just for two characters to say a few lines. The police investigation is three pages of dialogue.

Another good example is the scene on page 18, which is basically a half page description of the police station. Look, I know it sets a mood, but I think we get the idea after the second paragraph describing the interior decorating.

I just feel like less is more when it comes to descriptions. Look at some pro screenplays and you’ll see what I mean. They can be vivid and full of atmosphere while barely describing details like locations and the clothes the characters are wearing. That’s because, the atmosphere doesn’t come from the character’s surroundings… it comes from the character themselves, and the situations you put them in. Tell the story… let us fill in the details on our own.

And, you’ve got some passive writing here and there. “The Sheriff is standing” “He is holding back tears”. These could all be cleaned up, easily.

When you’re sending this out to readers and agents, you want them to read it. And read the whole thing. Which means you have to keep their interest… keep it concise, make sure it’s a quick read, because the quicker they get through it, the better chance you’ll have in actually getting this thing sold/produced. And that’s the ultimate goal, right? If they lose interest and stop halfways through... well...

I don't want to spend too much time on the writing, though, since I've already gone over it before, and you seem to know where you're overwriting. Just keep what I said above in mind.

The length is a bit long for horror, IMO. I'd shoot for around 100-110.

Have you noticed the spacing of this? Looks like your leading is set to "loose" or something. When you compare it to other scripts, the space between each line is slightly off. It's very slight, but take a look at this. It'll cut a few pages at least.

But anyway, I wanted to focus more on story than anything, for once.

First, I think your opening is a bit cliched, and I'm not sure if that's your intention. Couple of teens sneak off in the woods, killed off by a monster… We've seen it before. It's not much of a surprise Tommy is killed.

I'm guessing you're trying to make a self aware horror film-- the Scream of werewolf films-- but the thing is, this scene isn't ironic enough to seem self aware at all. It's like you played it straight, made a totally serious scene.

But, I thought the body flying into the fire was a nice touch. And I liked how you took it farther than just "two teenagers killed". The monster attacking everyone was unexpected and well done, IMO. It's just the very beginning that's been done to death.

I still advise against using CUT TO after every scene, like I said with your Pendulum short. It does have its uses (I'd leave it there on the first scene, when you cut to the forest-- has a nice effect there) but sometimes you need scenes to flow. When you're writing a fast-paced chase, you want your scenes to flow together so we breeze through them. We don't want the chase noticeably broken up. For example, when the monster is chasing the teenagers. Instead of writing CUT TO, just write new slugs for separate scenes. You could even use mini slugs.

The police investigation just after the attack could be considered a common slasher trope.  Opening kill, police investigation, establish protagonist. Again, this has been done, and it's not "ironic" and self-aware enough to work, IMO.

On a more technical note, I think it's a little confusing to call him "JANSEN” for dialogue, but "The Doctor" in action lines. Might get confusing… makes it look like they're separate people. (And later, he’s “Doc Jansen”).

The thing about the length of the investigation is, we already know there’s a monster. When the cops are saying things like “I wonder what that was...” “Nothing could throw a car like this!” there’s no suspense for us because we already know that it’s a werewolf. There’s no “I wonder what did this!” “I can’t wait to find out!” We know what’s going on. There’s a werewolf. So cut some of the dialogue... make sure they aren’t just talking about things we already know. Or worse, they’re trying to solve a mystery we already know the answer to.

Maybe the investigation uncovers things we missed during the opening. They figure out a body’s missing. Someone’s still alive. The monster drank all the beer. I dunno... Something. Anything that we don’t already know from the opening. “They threw this car!” Yeah, we already saw that happen. It’s not a shock. Surprise us.

I like the hunting scene, though. I was actually not sure what was going to happen… Are they going to find nothing? Is the beast there? Will it get them, or will they escape?

Still, I think you need a scene between the cop investigation and the hunting scene to establish some sort of protagonist. At this point we still aren’t clear who we’re rooting for, which made me feel a bit emotionally detached from this. Maybe add some sort of quick scene between these… introduce some sort of protagonist, a hero. Right here, we’re at page 15 and there’s no sign of a main character.

(I’m a little further now, and I’m getting the feeling the sheriff is the protag… but maybe I’m wrong. As it is, there isn’t enough backstory or character development on him to really be sure. Also, he doesn’t have a name… just The Sheriff, which makes it harder to really empathize with him.)

Damn!! The bear!! That’s fucking cool!! You get a chance to inject a little more “horror” into this without resorting to fake-out scares. Plus, it raises the question… is there really a werewolf out there, or was the bear the killer all along?

But wait a minute, so they run into a bear chewing on a human leg and they just laugh it off and walk away? There’s a severed leg sitting there! What are they doing?!

I also liked the scenes of The Man. Plus the song choice, Nature Boy. Very cool.

But like I said before. You've got a really cool story and some really good scenes on your hands... but the writing itself is just too much. Occasional descriptions are fine, but describing every little thing makes everything almost blend together. Things are so bogged down in details, basic actions aren't clear. Details blend together, and it's hard sometimes for me to visualize what's happening "on screen."

I’m sorry, man, but I’m out at page 30. I’ve got a lot of other scripts in my queue, as well as my own scripts to write. But most of all, this is just too much for me to wade through. It’s not bad by any means, just… way too much. The plot isn’t slow, it’s the writing. I will admit, the read got a little smoother by page 16 or so (after the bear scene), but it’s still not quick enough. It seems like simple dialogue exchanges are streeeetched out over multiple pages. And when it comes to horror especially, this should have been a breeze to read.

Still, this isn’t bad by any means, and you’re nowhere near some of the other shit around here, so good job. You’ve got some really good ideas here, stuff that I could definitely see as a real movie. It’s just that this needs another rewrite, I’m afraid.

I’m looking forward to that too (if you do plan on doing another draft). Really. You’re willing to actually learn and improve your work, and those are the kind of writers I tend to want to help.

So, I hope this does help.

Will
Posted by: dogglebe (Guest), February 17th, 2013, 5:37pm; Reply: 24
Will, what is the line spacing set as in this script?  It looks like 1.5, instead of one.  If you bring it to one, this script would drop to eighty pages, or so.

UPDATE

I'm reading this script and finding it overly-detailed and slow-paced.  The opening sequence (the party and massacre) just went on-and-on for me.  You could probably cut the first twenty pages down to ten opages.

I do like your characters, particularly Bobby.  His Barney Fife-esque personality seems well devloped and it brings a lot to the character interaction.


Phil
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), February 17th, 2013, 9:09pm; Reply: 25

Quoted from dogglebe
Will, what is the line spacing set as in this script?  It looks like 1.5, instead of one.  If you bring it to one, this script would drop to eighty pages, or so.


Wow.... it does. I checked by copying to Word, and while it isn't exact... it's around 80 pages. And thanks to the overwriting, you're basically looking at a 70 page story padded to 120. Which isn't good.
Posted by: Hugh Hoyland, March 2nd, 2013, 6:59am; Reply: 26
Hey Will!

Update:

Sorry about the length of time for a full review but life sometimes gets in the way of reading! lol

Either way I wanted to let you know I havent forgot about it and I'm almost finished and will post my thoughts shortly (I hope!). I will say so far so good.

And again your writing "style" doesnt bother me that much, it reminds me of cumulative style.

HGW
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 6th, 2013, 9:21pm; Reply: 27
I'm sorry for my absence. Death in the family and resulting chaos...

Looking back to these times, I wonder if at least some of the  over-detail in my writing wasn't some product of my extreme mental escapes into these created visions... it could be, maybe?

WOW on the spacing... what a f-up... but oh well. I'm on it... My eyesight is utterly terrible by the way, so I do all my writing with my screen super-magnified to the point, I guess, it just slipped right by me.

Bare in mind guys, too, that once again, my experience is with Directing.

It does help when you point these things out about the pure-writer's point of view, and I'm glad people are finishing it, but when talking details (and in a world where animation/vfx are increasingly blurred with classic film), some of these lines you point out as extemporaneous are direct nods to certain crew departments, and written from my direct experience with the available technologies. Animator first. Director and Storyboarder second. Screenwriter third.... that's been the order of my training.

A person going into this writing not knowing design concepts, for example, may not see a word like "warm," as something seen on screen. But it is, in fact, a direct reference to the color temperature, and therefore specific to lighting and filter. It refers to yellowish and redish based hues, and if worked into the prose correctly, is an efficient way to perhaps tell one reader about mood and action, depending, at the same time someone in set-design and/or camera will immediately note the color tone reference. I've placed many of these types of lines in here. Many many...

It's a valid argument that a writer may not need to consider this when selling a piece, but again, I'm not a writer. I've been a Director and an Animator. I've made my best attempts to work these types of things into single, double-meaning lines or sentences as much as possible. So, while on some of your points you are right and make a lot of sense, on just a few, you have honestly missed the subtlety there (and it's not really your fault, but my training in other parts of a film crew at play, and about who I wish to communicate to). That's just one such example.

Another, I should say, is that this thing is full of easter eggs. I did it for security, and in each act, there are no less than three easter eggs. I'll clue you in on one: There is a line in this script that is literally just the title of a Sonic Youth album, "The Destroyed Room," which I worked into the prose in a very particular way. I knew I would be publicly posting all over a long time ago (It's since been in the Wildsounds LA contest, and got some nice reviews but didn't win), and in case it was taken/stolen, or I hadn't gotten it's protection together correctly, I would have a legal basis with which to argue my being the original writer.

I highly recommend this practice.

To sell it as a writer of your own type, of course, I would need to effect the exact changes you all have mentioned, absolutely.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 6th, 2013, 10:41pm; Reply: 28
To your narrative comments Crookedowl? I might be able to help clarify some points... and this was on an earlier response, basically, but it was long so I will rephrase. When this thing landed in my lap it was a collaborative effort. It came as a 70 page thing that had nothing going for it at all. It had no less than TEN SPELLING errors on the first page alone, and I was simply asked to edit it. Format is one thing, but spelling? Man, it needed help. When editing, some huge plot holes came forward. He had a sheriff basically ripped off from television answering to a Mayor like some Law and Order episode, for example, when Sheriffs work for a county and not a city. Just one of many.

There probably still are some as a result of this, in a way, because trying to fill them all was like a game of wak-a-mole... I had to really, reallllly, realllllly get "creative" as they say, by which I mean higher than two kites. And mushrooms. I wrote half of this thing on mushrooms, the other half being reworks of my collaborator's beginnings, the "third half" going back to my original task of editing.

Things really "streeetch" out a hell of a lot, I can tell you, when being payed a visit by one of our little green and fungal friends. But if you WATCH such a movie on such an occasion... perfect. You want to go on a meandering journey like frodo - not take a roller coaster ride, per say.  

I then had to get creative in my discussions with my counterpart. I began to add and change things. To be blunt, his fiance left him at that time and he completely gave up on life. He stopped even participating, but after long talks, it was decided that if this was going to get done then I had to do it myself, and any monetary deals would be negotiated with him later in fairness to his coming up with the concept. He then stepped down after losing all confidence and changing gears.

It was definitely sad, but that's why I push this how I do... for him.

This may help answer, that yes, the first ten pages are a direct assault on the cliched werewolf opening, because when he tried it first he did it in a literal way, not understanding its cheesiness, and I wrote the monster to SMASH the scene. I still almost get a kick out of it, but does it lack in self awareness? I just don't know, honestly, but I'll take your word for it. It's my own opinion that it gains its awareness very shortly, and that the audience is meant to be left just as unaware as the characters themselves are, at those moments - only becoming self aware when the characters become self aware, I mean. I think...  

I didn't even make the title! ha...  I kinda want to burn it... and I think if you look very closely, where the story is going up and down in sense and DEPTH, you might see what are his ideas versus my ideas, because I respectfully wanted to include SOME true spirit from his original at the time. Yet, his characters had no depth at all. I had to completely rework them and all of the intertwining material from my own, true life experiences with people.

The Man was not in his original version - a perfect example, and I'm glad you like him, because he's mine. Originally, the Sheriff and the Werewolf both had awful names... so awful that I just removed them all together, and went with an old trick of connecting them as Protagonist and Antagonist by making them the only primary-level characters without names. You see, on a subconscious level, doing this makes The Sheriff and The Man actually two parts of the exact same person... myself in each of them... and while extremely nuanced in its execution, once noticed, the connection between the two becomes obvious IMO.  

Bear was mine, too, so thanks. So far you've put down everything my roommate came up with that I tried to shape into anything, and have complimented all of my own ideas lol (technicalities not included, but that's okay and exactly what I needed).

Are they late in coming? Yes... but while this film may be horror, it is actually based on Wes Anderson scene pacing, now, which I'm sure you realize is extremely abstract. My version of the rework from the original is an abstraction on cheesiness, met with brutal, blunt violence, and the characters developing from my real life. It's Wes Anderson and Riffen's "Bronson," meets a cheesy, awful werewolf story. That said, to establishment of the protagonist? You couldn't know, but would easily in the story-boarding phase, that The Sheriff's introduction as the protagonist would (and can) be established by a simple low-angle (or worm's eye view) shot, highlighting his large and "heroic" presentation in his very first moments on screen. That's just how that sometimes works imo... as an experienced story-boarder, that's sometimes just part of what we have to interpret later.  

Shot angles can establish much in the subconscious, but are definitely one thing even I know not to include in a screenplay. They're just a mess.

I would want to see this be between 1:30 to 2 hours long as a result, on screen... at LEAST... all breaks from horror conventions completely beside the point. Your spacing point complicates this, errrm, against the desired 1:1 ratio, of course. Still, it's Moonrise Kingdom and Life Aquatic and Bronson and Drive... not American Werewolf in wherever. Pretty much. I think fans of the former would like this movie a lot, especially once it's gotten to the meat of the second act and they realize what kind of ride they are really on (more stuff like the bear, but all about character, ultimately).

I like the part where you wonder about the leg, lolol... that's too funny. I guess you're right on that, overall... just an interesting and unexpected interpretation.

The line, "The scene is beginning to attract flies..." ?? A direct nod to the basis of his original writing. I didn't want to murder his work, per say, but it could be so difficult to work with sometimes, some of the overall strangeness of this work is the result of a blending with the cheesy and the deadly serious (my own), which results in the sum total being something like a horrific mushroom trip - with a werewolf.

I won't argue that the opening scenes are the weakest and always have been... rather than remove the original, I focused on their interactions in the investigation as pure character development as we watched how they first get along with one another, and establishing the hint of old conflict between the reporter and the Sheriff - as well as some loyal friendships, too. We see who's who, there, but not yet why they are who they are... That was my way of trying to make it valuable, but my true work (purest in getting away from the original until coming back to the bar-fight scene, and this is why it seems so random) begins at Act 2 around the transition to the sheriffs office.... In fact, I place plot point one as being the scene where Mel and the Sheriff meet in the interview room, and you see their true, deepest natures towards one another come out. After about page 25 or so, it literally becomes like a different movie.... it does a complete 180 in tone, I mean, and as a result of an intentional but confined thinking.

I tried to keep that spirit going, while still being forced by circumstance to come back around to the first draft of awfulness that it began its life as... Does that makes sense of it a little for you all?

I hope that helps clarify, and thanks for all of the great technical and experienced advice from you all.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 6th, 2013, 10:50pm; Reply: 29
Hey Will, I wondered where you went. Glad you're back, and I hope things are going well... or at least better than they have been. Sorry to hear about your loss.

Nice to hear your explanations for the script. I didn't realize how damn clever some of this stuff is... "The scene begins to attract flies". That's hilarious. As well as the wolf metaphorically... or literally... tearing through the previous writer's scene. Wish I could come up with that kinda stuff.

I can see where you're coming from about the directing angle. Personally, I think of myself as a writer, first and foremost, but I have made a few short films and I plan on shooting some of my stuff on my own. So, I can appreciate the extra visual details you added. My only problem with them is that, IMO, sometimes there are so many details things get tedious and hard to follow. If you think it's fine, that's all right... I won't keep repeating my problems with the writing.

It's weird, in the months since I first read this, how certain things have stuck with me. The thing I remember most  -- it's something I mentioned in my review -- is when the man gets in his car and drives away while the Grace Slick song plays. Everything came together for me at that part. I could see it on screen perfectly. It's weird, I didn't even finish the damn thing and I still can't forget that part.

Anyway, if you revise this sometime, let me know. Have you written any other features? I'd like to read more of your work.

Take care.

P.S. Thinking of this as a Wes Anderson-type movie helps. Also, I loved An American Werewolf in London.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 6th, 2013, 11:38pm; Reply: 30
Hey man! Sh!t, you're fast... I was barely even done.

Look, without the opinion of someone who considers only the writing, my own would be utterly worthless... and obviously, missing the spacing is just horrendous of me. Besides that, I think my brain IS just about ready to attack the fat of this thing, because it has now been so long since I've seen it, myself, I will likely see it under a very different light.

I'll clue you in on the scene you like, btw... I took the mushrooms in the forest, but they kicked in when I got in that car ride with nature boy... and I definitely mean "I," because I practically lived this thing out as a result of my immersion and getting whacked completely out of reality. Then I just wrote it.

I cleaned it up the next day when sobered a little.... but honestly, even though it totally was apart from any normal script-writing by far, the very first draft of that sequence was so abstractly poetic, I actually hold it up as one of the best things I've ever written in my life. It couldn't stay in that form at all.. it was utterly bonkers... but it kept enough of that spirit to have remained impactful even to myself.

I haven't actually done much else with Lychanpoops except your cut to's and basics since those days, but instead have jumped head-long into some actual novel writing, and between my day job and that, this has just been sitting in my folder. When I get immersed, I get immersed. I'm barely even conscious that it's 2013 right now (it is, right?), in fact...

But such is life...

I loved American Werewolf in London, too, to be truthful and get away from my sarcastic humor, but for this... I had the exact same sense that I had seen everything I was looking at before, found I couldn't go with the "self-aware" scream or Cabin in the Woods thing (as those are loveable but too recent), and so I just hit it with as much badassery as could be fit into that beginning without making my old roommate cry about my points on continuity and plagiarism...

But thank you, thank God and Baby Jesus and all the Baby Saints, that you recognized the actual cleverness behind just a few of the things I did IN LIGHT of the actual reality behind it's creative problems - because I thought I had gone insane with the disappointment no one could know those things - and which you couldn't know off-hand unless told. While some are for security, just a few I have been biting my nails all this time just for anyone to uncover and recognize as intentionally and outwardly in the face of some specific things. This thing is written in Punk, basically, almost, as a whole. But I believe on-screen things would work quite differently regarding those, especially when once again redone to make any final sort of shooting script... I had no idea, however, how much of an effect that temperment of mine would have on people's even wanting to complete the first act (when my pure work is in Act's 2 and 3 especially), and that has actually been very illuminating, overall.

I don't know if I would want to post any perfect, perfect perfect, script out in public, though, until the day of reckoning on it, if that ever comes.

Hey thanks again, and same to you man.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 7th, 2013, 12:18am; Reply: 31
(SPOILERS AHEAD) A few other of my very own, favorite additions, came close to the later half of the work, but few quite like that car ride till the end, which (SPOILER REMINDER) is based off of greek tragedy and not necessarily happy, actually, but ready-made for a sequel though probably pretty contentious if anyone reads it... some people will hate it, and some people will cry, and some might think it's just right, idk... but this is one where the wolf definitely gets away.

Since you didn't finish.

One convention it absolutely follows out of homage to this genre is that another person is bitten and becomes a wolf. Someone relateable, but no one we like deeply... someone we might be jeleous of, in fact... HE is done for, but who in the town (besides us) knows there were two? Possibly three or more out there in the world, in fact. It leaves a lot to hint and questions unanswered, just as many as asked, but while some people hate those, some people gain a lot of imaginative activity of their own through watching them. The selfishness of Melanie and all the friends she manipulates pretty much gets everyone killed... and that's my ex in a nutshell... at one point, her redneck informant wants to take things into his own hands and passes out guns and bombs to all the receptionists and stuff, and as soon as he leaves the room (my favorite single moment) someone triggers something and all you see is red paste splatter the windows from outside. Red paste that used to be receptionists. No one makes it, red-neck standing in abject terror of his own rash dumbness. Rather than political or topical, my hidden messages are all ones of interpersonal selfishness and ignorance inherent in our social conditions.  

I'm someone who loves LOVES "Prometheus," for example, even though it's against in reviews and sales, but I love it because the entire movie is almost a direct (and literally referenced) allusion to Friedrich Nietzsche's "The Will to Power," and other of his works. It stands that philosophy versus the modern day advances in science and genetics since the time of his writing about the Ubermensch. Things have changed, and we don't necessarily understand, basically. It's a movie that's anti-fascist, anti-corporate, anti-getting too far ahead of ourselves, and pro-human-spirit in truth (the real 'over-man' turns out to be the girl who can put herself through the surgery machine and still kick ass, for example, not the old guy who thinks he is - the example of Nietzsche's concept of how the overman SHOULD look, though, is quite literally rendered in every detail as the giant humanoid Man-alien, guy, as well as his race's obvious connection to ancient myth and legend..), and it's all done through the presentation of the character's inner struggles, at once. Like.... NO ONE knows that (that's why it's understood so little, or for mixed up reasons), but Scott went ahead and made it anyway, because it's genius and poignant. I don't think I'm that good... but in terms of depth and hidden message, that's my goal whether it makes money or not. I just want to slap the world in the balls, if not jiggle them just a little.   :D Daintily.  

Who's the real ubermensch in Lychanthrope, then? Well... both having no names and therefore truly being the same person, metaphorically, The Sheriff and the Man are both equally protagonist and antagonist as a result, each deep within themselves... and what we watch is the inner struggle of one trying to find out the answer, and one already knowing it more than well. It's selfishness that is left as the true antagonist, then, in here. That's my own assessment.

One viewer might see it as the Sheriff, and fully argue for his side. Another viewer might see it as Wolf/Man, and fully argue for that. I want that, I think.
I'm almost glad you couldn't tell or decide yet, under that light, because one isn't really supposed to except in their own heart. In other words, I wanted a narrative unique in that you decide the conflicts, yourself, based on your own projections, and who is what is all your choice, alone. It's ideals and concepts that are actually at odds, in this. It's for that reason (and in spite of some of the longer dialogues among others, but which when spoken aren't tooo bad on length, sorta), the wolf actually receives almost NO dialogue at all, except for a couple lines from a Bob Dylan song, "Man of Constant Sorrow."  


(RE-SPOILER)
I think the most creative element I personally added to this work is the kill/delivery method for silver. The original had the town awarding the sheriff with an antique revolver and silver bullets as a reward for his service, just conveniently before, oh! he's gotta use that now.... there was this reality show thing in addition, and I couldn't. I just couldn't...

In mine, it's smash a car into the jewelry store, steal all the silver you can grab, tape it to a claymore mine you got out of a "Saw"-like booby trap you found earlier (because the wolf is actually a vietnam vet, his backstory being that he became infected in the jungle with his sarge, and was used in rampages there against enemies while placed on all sorts of drugs), strap the silver to the mine, and run full force at the monster to a point you know you can blow the heck out of it. That's my other favorite part.... My sole focus will be to rework things just to bring people THERE, to that point, and then see how they feel...

Hope that didn't ruin too much, though.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 7th, 2013, 1:03am; Reply: 32
Definitely impressive you put that much thought into this. Especially considering it's horror, a genre that's constantly getting shallower.

I mean... that's a lot to think about. Some of this is going over my head -- I'll tell you that right now.

And that actually didn't ruin it for me. If anything it makes me want to pick it up again. But I'll wait, if you're going to rework this soon.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 7th, 2013, 1:41am; Reply: 33
To give a little background for knowledge's sake, and so you might recognize it in other films (because he's influenced almost everything that happened in the 20th century, historically, and remains well regarded among the educated elite), Nietzsche's philosophy began as one of nihilism (he coined that term, meaning 'f@ck-it, annihilate everything you think you know), where after losing one's connection to god for some reason, one feels no more connection to right or wrong and lives as if nothing in the world matters. His book "Beyond Good and Evil" notes this fully. He then expanded by saying that this world is set up in a master vs slave mentality by nature (he said by nature, but lived in an era when they hadn't discovered the atom or even genetics), and that some people deserve to have the right to enslave others based on their superiority. Later, the nazis would take this idea to the fullest extreme (every SS man was required to carry one copy of Will to Power or Thus Spoke Zarathustra on his person at all times, in fact, along with mein kampf), and some groups to this day literally still follow this thinking. Any sociopath who wants to lord over someone else, basically.

In his later life, he completely reversed this and felt sorry, but it was too late... his last philosophy, from before he went completely insane and was forgotten for a time, was the one that inspired Fight Club from the ground up... he expanded on his earlier thinking that some day there will come an over-man, or ubermencsh in german, after human evolution has run its course - and he will be superior, still, but ONLY because he is creator of not just his own values in the absence of any other, but also all he touches. With no power, he still can do so with rationality and inner strength beyond all normal reasoning. And though no one can defeat the overman, regardless, it's in his grasp to win especially while not forcing, not forcing it upon anyone. He will do it by Will of Creativity rather than power, only... almost as if making his own universe (like in Akira) because "It's only when one has lost everything that he is free to do anything," as Fight Club said, but Friedrich said first; when all is erased, the only way to fill the void is to create oneself within it. The coming of the truly creating human spirit, basically.

I would make the argument, in fact, that almost everything you think you've learned about life through film in the last century, especially the great of great in horror and scifi, is in some way - even if indirectly - all rooted in the works of Friedrich Nietzsche. How many horror films have been based on H.P. Lovecraft work, like The Thing and Alien? So many... so so many... even Stephen King has said he would be no one without Lovecraft; but H.P. Lovecraft directly quoted Nietzsche in almost every single story he wrote, just slipped inside of action lines and dialogue (Take H.P.'s "man of truth," and "beyond good an evil" lines in his story The Silver Key, for example, the latter a book title, the former from Will to Power). It works like that, and down and down the line...

This is the essence of what Prometheus based some of its characters on, too, to wrap up my reference citation. Take the old man who clearly thought of himself as over-man, yet like the nazis and the typical course of that same line - and into modern times in many groups - still cannot get around their constant grabs for power and selfishness; with the other characters being models of pure modern science, which actually places humanity on a much more small and humble level. There's a new way of thinking on the horizon, where nothing in this universe can be created or destroyed (a natural law of matter and energy), and so all that we call creative is really communication of some form, and that takes us back to a philosophy of empathy rather than the self. True Empathy=total connection to all others. It's as if Scott asks the audience, "Which do you choose? Here's what I think..." and I think that's.... almost absurdly genius. It's the precursor to the philosophy of a new age. Which we need. Also the aliens were badass.

I think horror is perfect for this, or any moral lesson... Psychologically, you traumatize the audience when you show them violence whether they like it or not, think they feel coldness or not. That coldness and fear, both, are signs of the body going into shock. When the body goes into shock, the brain becomes easily manipulated - extremely open and malleable. You can then plant just about any suggestion into the mind as you please. This is why thrill-kill movies actually are pretty dangerous in horror to the viewer, when they leave nothing, but also why sometimes the moral lessons we learn from them stick with us the longest. If you have a real moral lesson, nothing beats horror to just ram it into someone's brain with.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 7th, 2013, 2:41am; Reply: 34
Wow.... never seen horror analyzed that way. Interesting stuff, man... seriously.

I think I just learned a lot from your post. I always thought about horror (and other genre movies) as being fun entertainment that could occasionally be social commentaries (like George Romero's films). But I never thought about using them to express anything very deep or meaningful. And I guess it's because most horror films don't; That stuff's usually left for dramas.

I definitely agree about violence and disturbing stuff sticking with you the longest. Some of the most vivid childhood memories I have are of things like that. They're also some of the most interesting memories.

But I'm not entirely sure what you meant by thrill-kill movies being dangerous for audiences... You mean like movies inspiring real life violence? Not sure I'm with you on that, but I do think a lot can be learned from some movies.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 7th, 2013, 1:41pm; Reply: 35
Okay, that makes sense. Wasn't exactly sure what you meant about thrill-kill movies. I don't think movies cause violence, either -- there's a quote from Scream, something about how movies don't make psychos -- they just make psychos more creative. And I think that's true; You'd have to be a pretty sick in the first place to do some of the shit people blame movies for causing.

And I agree that some films can leave viewers feeling "cold". But personally? Movies don't bother me. I haven't seen Hostel, but I can appreciate movies that seemingly have no value, if only for their writing and directing. This may not be the best example since it's not really a torture film -- but I thought Wolf Creek was fantastic, but it doesn't really have anything to say. I guess what I'm trying to say is, movies don't affect my mood in a negative way so themes and morals have never really been a big factor in what I think about a movie. I judge them mainly on technical aspects... writing, directing, acting... etc.

Because I don't think horror films have much to say, for the most part. I'm mainly talking about slashers here. The genre was originally a sort of made to be -- or at least they said so -- a warning for taboos. Teenagers drink and have sex, and then "pay the price" by being killed by a guy in a mask. The clever virgin is the only one to make it out, obviously. But I think it's gotten to the point where nobody really tries, or cares, about saying anything. Cabin in the Woods, the new Texas Chainsaw, the Evil Dead remake... hell, even the original Evil Dead... they're just pure exploitation. There's no real message there, but IMO, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Now real life kill videos... yeah, those are disturbing. And that's something totally different. The thing about movies vs. real life is, movies can show disturbing stuff but still have an important message. Real life... if something's bad it's bad, and there's really no getting around that. A video of a hobo dying while people ignore him has nothing positive to say. There's nothing you could get out of that. But a movie exploring the topic could be meaningful.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), September 7th, 2013, 2:00pm; Reply: 36
Hostel, Hostel 2, and Wolf Creek are easily 3 of my all time favorite movies.

It's easy to say they're pure exploitation or have nothing to say, but tehn again, if you want to, you can easily read a whoile bunch of different things into them - there's no need to, IMO, though.

Movie are entertainment, pure and simple.  Many don't need a message, theme, or deep meaning, whioch may or may not actually even be there.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 7th, 2013, 2:14pm; Reply: 37
True. Something I sort of dislike about literature analysis -- sometimes there isn't a message, but people make up their own meanings for things. Sometimes things are exactly the way they seem. The curtains are blue because they're blue, not to represent the sadness of the protagonist's mother or something.

I don't worry about themes in my own work. I've never make a conscious effort to write a specific theme, since they usually come naturally anyway. I heard Wes Anderson does that.

I need to see Hostel sometime.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), September 7th, 2013, 4:36pm; Reply: 38

Quoted from crookedowl
True. Something I sort of dislike about literature analysis -- sometimes there isn't a message, but people make up their own meanings for things. Sometimes things are exactly the way they seem. The curtains are blue because they're blue, not to represent the sadness of the protagonist's mother or something.

I don't worry about themes in my own work. I've never make a conscious effort to write a specific theme, since they usually come naturally anyway. I heard Wes Anderson does that.

I need to see Hostel sometime.


I agre completely with everything you said here, Owl.

And yes, you need to see both Hostel and Hostel 2.  For what they are, they're the pinnacle...easily.  They're not meant to appeal to the masses, but if you like what they're about, you'll love them.  They work on a level that's truly hard to accomplish.

Posted by: WillJonassen, September 8th, 2013, 12:38pm; Reply: 39
I remember you bringing up those points before, Dreamscale (and nice to see you again), and still consider them completely valid. You back yourself up with your particular point-of-view - you bring a very real and understandable side of the market to light in your opinions of it, as both a viewer and a creator - you are not at all alone in your thinking, but representative of an entire segment of the population who see things in a very similar light.

One thing you're talking about, I think, is people's psychological projection onto things that aren't there, and that's absolutely true. It's very different, however, when something is blatantly quoted and referenced in one work to another, such as in the specifically cited works of Nietzsche passed into Lovecraft passed into many other things - and simply looking into interviews from later creators often confirms these realizations. Sometimes, indeed, they discredit them.

And Nihilism IS a message. Sometimes, saying life has no message IS still a message. Or the message. Sometimes, having no point is the point, and so such logic always twists around on itself. Maybe, that's why some deep part of me actually likes your way of just saying, "Forget it, enjoy the movie!"

For my own part, I find that seeking it greatly improves my own ability to get those creative gears turning.

Granting this, there are other segments who feel like some of the most successful filmmakers and writer's of all time still inject some message, even if hidden and personal, into their work in order for like-minded people (since how many writers are lonely souls looking to reach out anything to anyone?) to be able to uncover and relate to. Or maybe they look to change things up in the world and find no other way of doing it than the subtle. Or maybe that's just how sometimes ideas are pulled out of the ether and then reassembled into something more manageable that is ultimately for entertainment value.

On Evil Dead: You could be right, but on a totally message-free side note - That's a directly, 100% Lovecraft inspired movie. Lovecraft is the writer who FIRST created and brought into our entertainment consciousness the Necronomicon... That was all H.P.'s idea, 1920's-30's, and though it has been taken and re-used often (some people even believe it is a real book that actually exists), H.P. Lovecraft invented the Necronomicon out of thin air, and H.P. Lovecraft was an ardent follower of Friedrich Nietzsche's... so I stand by my saying, sometimes the hidden message is simply a philosophy of nihilism, which is a codified and known thought-system, but that such messages can often be markedly deep.... even in what appears shallow... even if subconsciously projected out of thin-air by the writer/viewer's life experience. Again, in something like Fight Club, when in film/book, both, it directly quotes the man, then the connection is obviously obvious - not projected.  

I, myself, am like one of those Lovecraft types. I haven't spoken to a single person apart from the odd fellow down at the convenience store, 1am-3am usually, irregularly, for MONTHS. And that's not uncommon for me, at all. I may never go back among people too far. Ever again in my life. However, what calls like an incessant buzzing always in the back of my brain is the idea that some communication with the outside world must be achieved before I die. I've already almost died more times than I can count.

I would RATHER die flat-out, right at this very instant, than not place a message in what I leave behind to this world. In a personal way, I cannot understand those who would not... and in my investigations of at least some writers (and often, my own favorites) they shared in much of this same lifestyle and mindset as my own. For me, that gives me nothing but confidence that some messages can be left successfully, and passed down far through time to other minds... some of whom might be saved by certain themes and learned morals. In a way, it touches on the beginnings of storytelling, where human survival/history-keeping/educational/social-development/etc depended solely on the moral of the story.  

For sure, your best point is that they don't HAVE to be so. They don't have to be made so, or looked at so... it's just that, on occasion they are. And I find that interesting.

Going back to the spacing issues, Crooked, I looked into my version of FinalDraft Pro 7 and the spacing is indeed set to 1.   Just 1    so I'm looking into how/why that may have changed or been affected by the pdf format, or what I can do to make sure the pdf matches the original settings. It's getting somewhat technical for me, but I'm working at is almost as I type this, and being such a mystery, I'll be sure to pass on any relevant technical information I might find...
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 8th, 2013, 1:01pm; Reply: 40

Quoted from WillJonassen
Going back to the spacing issues, Crooked, I looked into my version of FinalDraft Pro 7 and the spacing is indeed set to 1.   Just 1    so I'm looking into how/why that may have changed or been affected by the pdf format, or what I can do to make sure the pdf matches the original settings. It's getting somewhat technical for me, but I'm working at is almost as I type this, and being such a mystery, I'll be sure to pass on any relevant technical information I might find...


You might want to check the leading and make sure it's set to "regular" and not "loose".
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 8th, 2013, 1:09pm; Reply: 41
Believe it or not, it's actually set to regular...  Maybe I should try "Tight?"  


I'll say this on Hostel... it's utterly terrifying. When it comes to working what they're about, for sure with what Dreamscale said, they do just what they set out to do and then some. You'll f-ing piss yourself. I am right now just thinking about it...


Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 8th, 2013, 1:34pm; Reply: 42
That could work...

I don't know why it's doing that. It's weird.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 8th, 2013, 1:41pm; Reply: 43
I feel like it has to be something to do with my Adobe reader settings, where I transfer it to pdf., perhaps, or something to do with the way I'm storing/importing or whatever kids are calling it these days... but I would never have known what was being carried over into here, as a result, without that keen observation. So SOMETHING is going on... I'll keep working at it.


I missed the slasher-film thing... they vary. Freddy, a monster who can take many forms and attack you in your dreams is based on "Nyarlathotep" and "Cthulhu" stories by H.P. Lovecraft. Jason, an unkillable juggernaut who comes from the water, some mysterious force passed down in his bloodline from a decrepit and degenerating evilness isolated in the backwoods, is based on "Dagon" stories by H.P. Lovecraft. Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the naive group coming upon psychotic degenerates without any rhyme or reason to their being, too, based on... I don't know which specific elder god's cantos (there are many)... but certainly Necronomicon stories that relate the exact same order of events almost exactly, scene by scene... House of 1,000 Corpses even more so, with that Doctor thing underground and influencing all of the evil events (perhaps there is some "Re-Animator" in there, and re-animator itself is one of the few actual lovecraft tales just directly made). It was Lovecraft's goal, too, to humble the shallow but egotistical masses.

The corrupt definitely go down, and the know-it-all's don't know it all's.

I think, one of the very few subgenres within horror that is not part of the direct lineage of H.P. Lovecraft is that of the Zombie movie... those were a creature and had a way of being actually very original to Night of the Living Dead and all their ilk. The other exceptions are, of course, those that connect with more ancient myth and legend like the werewolf/vampire types, or anything of a similar tradition. Still others, are the snuff-film types that are human vs. human, not supernatural, and much more contemporary - a number of which were earlier mentioned and perhaps original in their want to break away to something new.

The Thing was based on "At the Mountains of Madness," by H.P. Lovecraft, almost a complete rip-off (still brilliantly shot and characterized as an homage), but I assure you, "At the Mountains of Madness" is SO much more... freaking AWESOME. It's incredible. Alien? Those are based off of the Night Gaunts of multiple Lovecraft stories, particularly in "Dreamquest to Unknown Kadath." Every single Stephen King work was at least inspired by if not related to Lovecraft, too, as on the back of the Necronomicon there is actually a quote from King in gold letters, "Lovecraft opened the way for me, as he opened the way for others before me." I could go on and on and on.... if you don't already know these things, of course.

And these are all documented connections, not projections or speculations. Most can be verified in his biographies, or in interviews from later horror masters.

The problem is: H.P. Lovecraft stories are themselves so epic and huge in scope, that it would take a budget and technology beyond, way way beyond, even that of something like Avatar to even come close to making them. It's thought that a true version of "At the Mountains of Madness" would cost as much $200 million or more, and anything less would not capture the story. Cthulhu the same. Most of his best... just way out of sight, and so his devoted following can only really pay homage or take inspiration.

The point being: If you have never read an H.P. Lovecraft story.... DO THAT... Go buy the "Necronomicon Collection" and "The Eldritch Tales" at the store RIGHT NOW, lol, and get that in your life immediately. You will not be sorry, at all, especially if you enjoy the art of the short-story.

  
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 8th, 2013, 2:31pm; Reply: 44
Oh yeah, I'm sure there's some mythology behind many slashers. But sometimes I'm not sure it was really intentional... like in the case of Jason. The writer, Victor Miller, was inspired after seeing Halloween. And if I remember correctly, Freddy Kruger was based on various news articles and a stranger Wes Craven saw out his window one night when he was a kid. Same for Texas Chain Saw... Leatherface was based on stories Tobe Hooper's grandparents told him about real life cannibal Ed Gein. (Funny thing, some actually say TCM is a social commentary. It's a black comedy for sure, but I don't really know what part of society it's really commenting on.)

But yes, you could definitely interpret them as drawing influence from literature. It can make them more interesting for sure. But I don't know if the creators really had Lovecraft in mind when they were writing. And if they didn't, is it even correct or worthwhile to analyze them as such? I really don't know. I think some films don't set out to say anything, and that's okay.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 8th, 2013, 2:35pm; Reply: 45
Now this is kind of interesting, and sort of related. I don't know if you're into exploitation films, but I think they're fun. Switchblade Sisters, The Mighty Peking Man, Street Trash... films made for cheap back in the 70s and 80s for drive in theaters. According to Jack Hill (who wrote Switchblade Sisters), back then if you approached producers with an idea for a film, they'd give you a genre to work in. Maybe you wanted to make Hamlet or The Purloined Letter, whatever. So the producer will say, "set it in New York and make it a crime film about pimps". In the case of Switchblade Sisters, Jack Hill set out to make Othello, but they told him to to make it about a female gang.

So yes, I agree that some films draw influence from previous stories. Sometimes it's the movies you least expect.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 8th, 2013, 2:41pm; Reply: 46
Oh worthwhile?

Halloween I hadn't even thought of, shitte, and that puts a spin... more to discover... and I'll say I realize that with as complicated a thing as creativity is, most things all also come from multiple influences and points of view... many different directions at once... because here a person (or many in a team/crew) who all have entire lives worth of influence to fit into just a small space on a screen, and still the need to be original at the same time, must conglomerate nothing into something. It helps to pull from history.  

In some ways, what H.P. did for those films you mentioned is not just inspire the characters, but culturally open the minds of the masses to prepare the way.

H.P. Lovecraft did not see success in his life in large part because he was tossed aside as being too dark and evil. That his stories seemed so real and yet were not anything to do with God, but elder gods and ancient aliens and dark forces, he was thought quite literally to be an agent of the devil... but as time went on, passed his life once people slowly recognized his brilliance, it became much more acceptable to have these types of books and movies at all.

If he hadn't been born and writing, right then, there's a very good chance you might never have heard of some of your favorite filmmakers, in other words, because they would have been much more suppressed/oppressed. There's also something to looking at "How high the bar is set" when looking to become truly great or remembered. History repeats itself in cycles, so at least connecting and understanding a lineage to something can put one on a good footing, or tell them which way to go if they want to do something opposite and truly new. Sometimes, we have an idea we think is really original and then it turns out, no, even though you never heard of it it's been done before. That's something to avoid, especially.

Plus Lovecraft is like magic... I saw the world in a whole new way after knowing my place against his influence, that I didn't even know... don't like them today, for example, but loved all their early albums - so many Metallica songs are named after Lovecraft stories like "Ride the Lightning" and "The Thing that Should Not Be." Even watching SouthPark became more rich as a result of knowing Lovecraft, because they use his stuff ALL the time. Tool. Countless other rock bands, shows, books - not just movies at all. It's like the world I knew before Lovecraft was all a lie and a trick... and now it's a little bit less so.

And so what makes it worthwhile to me, is that by examining the flow of events and messages as a "zeitgeist," the way some people call it, leading to where the mind of the culture (or a targeted part of it) might be at this very moment... it helps me discover my audience and how I can reach out to them. It helps me discover myself, too, and what my own art means to me and might mean to others in the future. One can only guess how his work might be interpreted, though, and so it lastly helps me focus what interpretations I can into what I desire them to be, for later. What I have discovered so far? Shallow, and uncaring of larger things. Nihilistic. Dis-compassionate and un-empathetic. Uneducated, and enjoying being so - therefore ignorant, literally of a mind to ignore what that mind feels like. A people each for their own self. No soul. Money is god and king. Materialistic. Synthetic. Cold to the point suicide becomes an almost pleasant idea. That's the... audience. To me. To me, the audience represents the enemy of all things born of the light.

It's just a pit of sorrows, to me, sitting out there in those seats. It's like Mos Eisley space-port out there...  "A more wretched hive..."

Help me Obi Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

And when it comes to connecting Lovecraft to things, it's much about relaying credit to a poor genius who saw no success in his life, but deserves a heart-felt thankyou from us all - even if in spirit. He himself wanted to do the same back to Poe and Robert Blake, in terms of creative (not philosophical) credit.        

It's just about awareness of a great master, probably one of the greatest who will ever live.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 8th, 2013, 3:05pm; Reply: 47
It's like wondering how a car engine works but never knowing, and just being glad that it does... but when the day comes you hear about gasoline and what that is, suddenly, the whole machine makes sense. It still works like it did and would have anyway, but you just sit back and go, "Oooooohhhhhh... I see."


H.P. Lovecraft is the electricity in our light bulb.

He's the strings inside the piano.

He's the ocean around the fish.

If you're happy that a light-bulb just works, and go no deeper, then we can all be glad that you're just a happy and content person.

But H.P. Lovecraft should never be forgotten. If society crumbled tomorrow... I would make it my job to protect his works with my life, and pass them to my children with the exact same task that they must do anything possible, and nothing else, to make sure those books survive. No joke, and I'm not alone...



Quoted from crookedowl
I don't know if you're into exploitation films, but I think they're fun.




On exploitation films? Yeah... I totally love the idea, but they are something I know much, much less about... and it's because I find them rare and/or hard to come by with my limited means. Of course, it's something I would wish to look into for pure knowledge and experience sake - but to the process you mentioned about how they are made, that's got to be one of my favorite aspects of it for the quality of sheer, random FUN.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 8th, 2013, 4:40pm; Reply: 48
Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't trying to discount Lovecraft or anything -- I just said I wasn't sure if every one of those screenwriters were consciously influenced by his work. Not to say he didn't influence them in some way... and apparently in a very significant way.

It's like Citizen Kane. To me, that's the film that changed the way other movies were made. And even if someone today hasn't seen it, or -- gasp -- dislikes it, their movie will still be influenced by it in some way.

And the part about Lovecraft making society "ready" for modern horror isn't something I thought about at all. I can definitely appreciate that. Nothing is worse, to me, than a society that holds artists back and waters down their work. That ruined a lot of great works, particularly films. So anyone who paves the way for more creative freedom is a hero in my eyes.

And don't worry, I'll check out some Lovecraft ASAP. Unfortunately my local Target doesn't carry any (but they did have the Hostel movies).
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), September 9th, 2013, 1:25am; Reply: 49
Reading WAY TOO MUCH into films that were about exactly what they were about.

Seriously...end of subject.

I don't mean to be an ass or anything, but it is what it is and you are going way too deep here.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 9th, 2013, 1:37am; Reply: 50
Reading into what? I was mainly talking about Lovecraft's influence on storytelling. Some films are what they are, but everything gets influence from somewhere.

Discussing a writer's influence on a specific genre as a whole and reading into individual films are two different things.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), September 9th, 2013, 9:03am; Reply: 51

Quoted from crookedowl
Reading into what? I was mainly talking about Lovecraft's influence on storytelling. Some films are what they are, but everything gets influence from somewhere.

Discussing a writer's influence on a specific genre as a whole and reading into individual films are two different things.


Sorry, Will...not you.  I was a bit schlammied last night and posted this after I read a much earlier post by Will.

These discussions on influence are fine and I didn't mean for this post to come off like it probably did.

Posted by: WillJonassen, September 9th, 2013, 10:14am; Reply: 52

Quoted from Dreamscale
Seriously...end of subject.

I don't mean to be an ass or anything, but...


I understand that you aren't trying to be, bro, and I believe me when I say that I think you're great for your very own reasons.

But this is a site that is often, often, referred to students taking classes in script-writing in a college setting. Simply Scripts is listed many time in the course syllabus as a resource and study-guide, but just as much for examples of what not to do as for what works. They are encouraged to think about these things, it is often the subject-matter of the very classwork and required to know on tests, and etc., etc., so why censor or censure it's discussion in any way?

We're talking about young people who are full of all sorts of their own ideas about what they would like to make of themselves in life, and many of those ideas can be different than your own. Does that mean they'll all see success? Of course not, but that does not mean there is only one way to do OR think about these things. Some will think your way and absolutely hate the classes, in fact, for the same reasons you hate it, but to make it through with a grade those people just have to grit their teeth, I guess. You could hear a few of them moaning in the back, in fact, and even at really famous guest speakers from places like Pixar/ Dreamworks/ LucasArts that we've had visit (and you would expect them to be all-ears for), but most of that type (your type) just failed out. For everyone else, it's extremely fascinating from top to bottom.

I, myself, have been one of those students, and am thoroughly trained and successful in my area with award winning Short Films, such as "Mobius," By Ben Hammond, which one Best VfX in the Tampa Bay Film Festival in 2011, and the F8 challenge in 2012, and "America, I" by Heidi Garcia which is still currently running the circuits (on which I was Assistant Director and minor editor and Lead Story-Boarder of both), and working with producer Charles Box Jr (Sarah Silverman's former agent and you can see him on my facebook - a former Marine, too, I've enjoyed many lunches with him) who has his own film "In the South" in Cannes just this year, and on THIS VERY SCREENPLAY, "Lychanthrope" was made with at least some small input and help by TOM SAVINI (who I think might likely be one of your own heroes) He helped write the Bar-Fight scene in the second act, and is actually promised the part of the long-haired biker, Neil, as a result of his helpful interaction - if it does anything, but it's not made in that vein except for possible optioning. Tom is personal friends with the other original co-writer, going way back, and I literally have Tom's personal email right here. It's sitting right over there on my desk, and if I want to call Tom, all I have to do is give one of his buddies and publisicts Rick a holler, that is if he's not too busy getting hammered and having waffles with Qunetin. Quentin Tarantino. I've been extremely modest about my business connections throughout this with you. My make-up guy Allen goes and hangs out with Clive Barker, a Florida Resident also, on weekends. My Vfx guy just got hired by Weta Digital, which you see in the credits for darn-near everything these days... Internships and passed joints with people you wouldn't believe, or who've come and just slept on my couch for a few days. etc etc. On and on. Certainly, it's had something to with the good stuff I keep around the house, but that just makes conversation, often, even deeper.

I could go on and on and on, man, about the things and people I've met, known, and worked with.

Am I some big-shot? Hell no. These guys treat me just how they should, as the kid. But they're also great and extremely intelligent guys and gals who take things really seriously. They're extremely well spoken and educated, WELL-READ especially, and they'll talk about anything and everything often, and that's how and why they are successful. Big, open, minds.

Do you really want me to sit here and bullet point out you a list of all the outrageously legendary people who out-right disagree with you on every level? I could just cross-check Imdb for us and take up even more hours of all of our time - or continue formulating and developing my own creative ideas to share like I was doing! Let's seeee... Scorsese, Scott, Aronofsky, Cohens, Anderson, Refn, Hitchcock, Ramero, Gilliam; are all just some off the top of the head influences who went into THIS script, and have all kinds of depth going on behind them.

(And Crookedowl? Will 1? In the point you made about not really thinking about it AS you write? You're not wrong. When I considered it, I didn't really think about all those things either when writing this, actually much more just about memories of my life experiences while searching for interesting moments. It was built up on a moment to moment basis - same for those who helped make this script or had input to scenes. But I think what happens is those things still wind up coming out, or even being injected after-the-fact in the editing/polishing process for depth of content, when studied later in some class maybe, too, and I think it comes from just how the writer's who are most educated and smart almost can't help not just having it flow into their work because it's like muscle memory. Knowledge of things like philosophy, art, history, or whatever is inside the writer, will simply just flow out because that's what they have experience in most).  

Dream, you habitually come through people's pages and tell them what to think about this industry, but not once, ever, have you mentioned your own educational background. Not once ever have you mentioned any accolade on the academic end that I am coming from, to relate. I'm sorry, man.


It's one thing to present your opinion that you think you have one preference to movie watching and analysis, and it's another thing entirely to tell people what to think and do, let alone demand that they see it your way, let alone demand a conversation be cut short... for what? Your own annoyance? F that, bro. No one in the entire world cares about your annoyance levels except you... that's the hallmark of narcissism. OF COURSE you would like those movies with no content, because self-satisfaction is the hallmark of narcissism, pure and simple. Yes, this industry is full of people like that. We talk about people like you in class, in fact. But it's not completely full.

I'm TRYING to QUIT SMOKING CIGARETTES HERE!!! Aaaeeaaaaarrrroooaaarrggggggggg

And you have competition in the form of new students who will be giving you a massive run for your money (no pun intended) as there are some people who don't give two sh!ts about money or fun on the creative side (for those thing's sake alone even if the outcome still results in fun), but take the entire experience as piece of fully realized art, in and of itself, beyond all notions of money and time. Movies get churned out constantly like on a factory floor, but do you know which movies get taught about in school's and classrooms 50 years down the road? NOT the kinds of ones you are talking about. Have you been to school for screenwriting?

Maybe there are as many as ten students in every class who hear all about the old classics, and they hear the Professors and guest Lecturers from all over talk about why and how they got their starts, and those kids look up to them. The best of those who are able to hold a conversation with such guests show their salt, and are passed up the ladder a bit just like I managed do be handed along, and very nicely. Lucky, that was, but it also just came from being myself in many ways. And they related.  

It's often, almost always, about some deeply life-changing message that got into their heads and pushed them into film-making. And then these kids say, "Hey, maybe someone will remember my name in 50 years, too? And maybe some kid sitting in a room like this those 50 years later will have their lives changed, also, and become the next great themselves?" Or something along those lines.

But they come here to a site like this that is put in a reference section of the class, and they look to gain an understanding of their audience, and while you may be part of a true portion of that audience that they will have to deal with, you aren't even close to being representative of the whole, and you especially aren't representative of the creative side. This is nothing but discouragement, and not normal, but in a directly unfair and self-biased way on your part.

Is there fast money to be made when going for the quick regurgitation or thrill-ride of entertainment? Sure. But trust me when I say they take the time out of their lives to discuss the deeper things, too, because that separates certain individuals apart from being merely successful or known, from being legendary. They put reason behind what they do, and deeper meaning, sometimes literally just for, specifically, so some academics in the field can break it down in much later years and give it great critical acclaim as well as (or on top of) monetary success. For some people, it's about reaching minds and hearts just as much (or much more) than it's about reaching adrenaline glands.

One point of argument we had before, as example? There not a single, ONE SINGLE, person in the industry working in the academic/educational/critical side of MY school, and not ONE SINGLE STUDENT in my entire school (which has for a long time been well-regarded as a recruitment center for the best, Full Sail, but even going back to my Art Institute [less respected but in some ways larger] days it was also like this there) who thought anything about the movie "Avatar" was okay, from a film standpoint, and it's ONLY positive mark is in the vfx side and budget thrown at it... it's still left as a footnote in most CLASSROOMS, because among professionals, it's considered an awful F@cking movie. And it is. It fails to meet standards on so many levels, from plot, to some of the worst dialogue ever put on screen besides maybe Battlefield Earth.

And only people who have no idea what they are talking about and have never gone to school for it think otherwise, like sticking the short-bus kids on a roller-coaster with a missing track, and then not telling them about gravity.

That's what I think of your side on this debate.

And I think that about almost every one of your opinions, truth be told. So you don't ever have to click on such a conversation again, and if you see one, you can restrain your selfishness and remove your hand from the keyboard unless you can present the case/opinion in a citeable and unbiased (not telling as if you're the only person on the planet) way. You make kids, I'm not joking, want to cry and be completely discouraged with your negativity, and who do not deserve to be treated in that manner, or even be exposed to it at the stage they are in their education, with the directions they are going regarding the above.

Thanks


I won't be back for a while, because I've learned what I need to learn in class, honestly, from reputable experts and backed up by industry talents, and this site in general represents such a small, biased, and uninformed cross-section of the audience that it's almost not even worthwhile except to know that it exists, make technical comparisons, and to have a protected source of citation material for certain scripts that are unproduced or for fun. My final word at least to Dream, on this, is that there is no one way to do or think ANYTHING on this planet.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), September 9th, 2013, 10:29am; Reply: 53
To each their own, always.  You are correct.

Sorry to upset you so deeply. Not sure how I did, but I obviously did.  My apologies.
Posted by: WillJonassen, September 9th, 2013, 10:44am; Reply: 54
Because the kids man.


The crying children.


With broken dreams.


Bathing in their own tears and murdered hopes, now.


I also literally just now saw the part about your drinking, and I myself have not had a cigarette in about a week (which I am regretting most thoroughly, but sticking to because my mom died of cancer since last we talked), and that's the long and short of it, but still the essence of my point on how these discussions come from class, or my ideas do, as the heart of my contention.


I'll say this is opposite of my other, though... My ma didn't even open the first page of this script. I handed it to her a while back when it was clear she was running short on days, but felt I had to warn her about some of the violence and drug references, and she didn't even open it as a result. It was my sense that it was the best way she could get to know me on a deep level, too, for exactly those reasons and more, because she sincerely never did. It also may have been a source of "hope," I thought, because I'm not the marrying type and what-not... and you know moms. I'm only sharing that sob story to say that while I may have called your view-point single-minded, it's competitive and contends itself as a genuinedly real part of the industry... that OTHER is nothing more than CLOSED-minded, and I think, far far worse for this industry and world.

And at least you aren't like THAT.


I'm a Story-Board Artist by trade. I spend much of my time reading scripts from that standpoint, and trying to interpret what will go from words and into little picture in square panels. Line by line, page by page, scene by scene, sequence by sequence, act by act, I need to see everything that will help me form that picture - what will go into the little box next to the picture about what sounds are taking place during that moment - what will go in the box under that one about any dialogue taking place - what will be written underneath as the general description of action and character motivation. The only step up in terms of creativity in that process is working with the Director to decide what shots will look like (often having already scouted a location and come home with photos to reference) and which way the camera will move with little arrows. Those aren't in-script, but come very soon after. I go about all of the reading I can in that way, but of course it's much easier to have the writer/director in the process, if you aren't that yourself. This script was a collaborative effort, but in this version here, also a fun means to try to put myself in another's shoes that addresses some of the short-falls I too often see when trying to story-board other's work.

That's my real angle. The rest is just purely academic.
Posted by: crookedowl (Guest), September 9th, 2013, 11:40am; Reply: 55
It's all right, Jeff. I didn't take it personally.

And I'll see you around, Other Will.
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