So far I've posted three scripts on here. Most have liked what I've written but a universal response has been: cut down on verbage...there's too much in the action lines...tighten it up.

I understand the feedback completely but I just have this odd feeling of having to learn how to write all over again.

I've cringed at this because I know how to write tightly constructed pieces.  

I'm wondering if anyone has had a similar experience: in my professional career I have written for newspapers, magazines, broadcast news copy and some commercials. I've written sales proposals and countless P.R. pieces.

I'm also a sports broadcaster. I've written and outlined copy for myself for radio and TV play-by-play broadcasts covering college and professional baseball, hockey and basketball.

That last part is probably responsible for my default mode of attempting to paint a verbal / word picture when I don't necessarily have to in a script.  

I'm discovering that a script is a very different animal from anything I've written. All of a sudden I feel like a person that hasn't written two sentences that make sense before.

Has anyone else ever experienced this? Some of you are really young and this is all you do...some of you have made scripts the focal point of your writing whether it's your career or future or ideal vocation. But have any of you felt like you are having to learn how to write again?

Many, through feedback, gave me some tips on what to look for to edit myself. What are some other keys / rules to do that well? How much am I, as the writer, trusting the reader that they can fill the gaps to what a scene / set piece looks like?

I have a hundred such questions...I'll add more as the thread evolves.

When I writea features, the first drafts are usually 140-150 pages.  One script I wrote was originally 180 pages.  After this, I put the script away for a few weeks to clear my mind of it.  It's easier to edit/shorten things at this point.


Phil

Yeah, I've written monsters before.  Really bulky scenes with small talk and detail which I thought was necessary but really wasn't in terms of driving the script.

I've always imagined reading my script/story at a campfire.  Nobody wants to hear a novel, just a story and I'll go from there.  When I read some heavy action, I can just see some people drift off in my own little world.

Short, sweet, simple seems to be the way of action lines.  Arrive late and leave early seems to work for dialogue.  I actually remember reading a quote by a writer (can't remember who it was) that said, "If you think you've cut out too much, you're on the right track."

In addition to the suggestions above, try this...

Watch a movie and pick a few of your favorite scenes. Now, write those scenes, only describing the actions and dialogue. Not the color of the carpet or anything like that. When you think about writing screenplays as merely describing what we see on the screen, it becomes much easier to not describe how someone feels or insignificant details. Only tell us what's important.

^ Wow.  That IS  a good idea, take this dude's advice.  I'm going to.  *Bows to cinemachado*.

Yeah, 'machado, that would accelerate my learning curve.

Pia, that filter of what we see and what's important is part of what I'm wrestling with. I may need to read some action heavy scenes just to see what's included and what's left out. And, yes, what I've done (and am still doing) is hardly considered "work."

If 'machado read The Reader then I have to thank him for not calling me out directly for having a character collapse "face first on to the light brown carpeted floor"...from a (slinking under my desk now) "tan couch."

I will be sheepishly logging off now...will check back later.

All good advice and a topic I absolutely love.  I'll give more detail later. but for now, let me take Felipe's advice a step further.

A great thing to do is to grab a script...like Scream or Scream 2. read the opening scene.  Then watch the opening scene on film.  Go back and reread the script again.

You'll learn an awful lot if you pay attention and have some understandings of the difference in script and film.  See what's really important in detail and why.  See what isn't...and why.  Understand how the rule of thumb 1 page equals 1 minute of screen time works...and how you have to be careful what you write and how much detail you give to make it work.

Details can be very important.  And, they can be completely unnecessary.  Visual writing is what's key, though, overall.  Create strong, memorable visuals and the details of the scene will come automatically for your readers. It's the mundane, understood, unimportant details that you have to avoid.

Every line should be golden..in some way.  It doesn't have to move your story or plot forward and it doesn't have to be awe inspiring.  It just has to work in some way.  Make your own world and your own characters by making then have life...and reality, hopefully.

You can learn as much from reading Pro scripts as you can from reading piss poor scripts.  The Pros aren't always right, but the shit always smells like shit.  You just have to understand exactly what that smell smells like.

Some great advice given above.  I also like to think of some of my favorite movies, ones that really stick in my mind, and then find the scripts for those movies to see how the writers put it down originally on paper.   Then I'll watch the movie with the script in front of me.

For example, American Beauty is one of my favorite movies, and Alan Ball did a masterful job with that script.  I watched that movie recently with the script open and I was actually surprised at how much verbage he had in some of his action sequences, but it didn't seem over-written.

Now while I'm in the "Less is More" camp, I think there is definitely a place in some instances where you have to paint a picture for everyone, and the only way to do that is to be a little more descriptive in your action sequences.

I'm glad you stopped by Dreamie and will look forward to what else you'll post on the subject. I think the difference between script and film is an area I'm pretty ignorant of at this point. I also read your comments on "Mermaid Manifesto" and gulped when you posted that is was a "mistake" to post a script on the site before it is ready. I would have posted "oops" as a reply but it wouldn't have been clear the post would have been about what I've posted. It's clear to me now that I was guilty of that.

If there's a kangaroo court in SS then I hope you all are merciful and take in account that I'm relatively new here.

Thanks as well, Hawk. American Beauty is one of those where just enough time has passed to where that script and film would not have been in the front of my mind. I wasn't wild about that movie actually but recognize how it packed a punch and left an indelible impression. I'll look forward to breaking that down...

Not everyone writes the same.  Because some people prefer minimalism doesn't mean you are required to write that way.  Feel free to tell your story in your own words with your own voice.

What's important to remember is write down what's important.  You'll never go wrong if you write something down that's necessary to tell your story.  The hard part is recognizing what the important bits are.  

I understand this question completely - I was there about 6 months ago then all of a sudden something clicked and I had a light bulb moment, but this only happened due to countless criticisms on one script.

The first draft was 110 pgs but had too much description (people were 'nice' because they could tell I was a newb).  

Second draft was around 105 pgs - not good enough - still too much description.

Third draft was round 100 pgs - critisism backed by feedback from competition - still too much - "What?? Really??"

Finally a light bulb moment - dropped another 5pgs in the complete rewrite. It all comes down to that moment where you realize what your doing wrong.  Even had someone ask me if I had paid someone to rewrite it, which I thought was a huge compliment :) (Thanks again to all that helped - you know who you are:))

Examples:

1st draft - CAMERA DESCENDS from a sunny blue sky to an eventful Beach.
               Waves CRASH, TEENAGERS are sun baking, CHILDREN are playing
               in the water, throwing Frisbees and making sandcastles. A few
               ADULTS are sitting on the sand, talking and watching their
               children.

2nd draft - CAMERA DESCENDS from sunny blue skies to an eventful Beach.
                Waves crash. Children play pleasantly. Teenagers sun bake. Adults sit,  
                talking among themselves.

4th draft (can't find the 3rd) - Blue skies. Teenagers sunbathe. Adults watch their  
                children play in the water.

Might not be perfect, but hey, it's an improvement. You'll know when it hits you - you just 'get it'. :) Good Luck!

I'd have to agree with Cinemachado.

Taking a scene from a movie, writing it as you think it should be done and then comparing it to how it's actually written in the script, gives you the opportunity to analyse where you're going wrong.

I've done this for several scenes from one of my favourites, Get Carter, and it's amazing how much writing you don't need to actually do.

Kip.

It takes practice. Write and aim for 2-3 lines max.

Keep reading scripts. A good script I've learned from is Gilroy's Bourne. Read it and watch the movie - you'd think it would be 200 pages but he gets it to about 100 pages

Off on a business trip.

I'll respond later.

Hey Ed,

Some sound advice from everyone – overwriting is something that everybody struggles with at first because we know no better. The important thing to remember is to stick to what’s fundamental to the story.

If your character has long dark hair and you go on to describe this then great. But does the character having long dark hair really matter to the overall story or is it filler.

This is a difficult skill to master because we all want to set-up characters, build the atmosphere of a scene or choreograph a fight to what we imagined it to be.

But we have to remember that we want the reader to skim through the pages and never get bored or let have their mind wander. Long overwritten action will do this and that’s when you get the feedback about being cutting down on the verbiage.

A way to do this is not only tighten the action but break it up and start a new paragraph with every new action. Remember that white space is your friend and looks nice when reading a script.

But I also want to agree with Michael that not everyone writes the same, you can overwrite but you have to be a very good writer to do it.

Best of luck to you.

On another note:

Quoted from CrusaderVoice I'm glad you stopped by Dreamie

I think we found Jeff’s new nickname! ;D



Mmmm, comfortable. Are you as flexible and soft, Jeff. Hope you took a Dreamie on your business trip. ;D

I can hit the right page numbers, but I am an OVER WRITER too. :) I've even been told that about my emails!

I'm doing better...but I think I will always be called an over writer. I can live with that, but I'll continue to get out the Lizzie hatchet to trim trim trim :)

You are NOT alone :)

Thanks PY, even if you did make me / us feel like addicts that will always be fighting this (then again, I did title the thread that way).

You’re giving me hope ‘wings. I just hope it clicks for me as fast as it did for you (and thanks for the examples…especially of a beach scene for those of us in the wintery North American Midwest).

I’m all for not writing as much Kip. It’s a broadcasting rule too…we get into trouble (verbally and otherwise) when we start talking too much. It's easy to ramble or start talking in circles. It sounds like the same thing applies I just have to figure it out on paper.

Coop, I think you hit on something. I want to have the reader picture what I’m seeing. I need to have the reader engaged, however.

Is there a degree to which I shouldn’t even worry about the finer details of what a scene looks like other than to set tone / emotion? Do I just tell the reader where we are if the thing ever gets produced then the technical people / director fill in the blanks?

I’ve never heard of the “Dreamie” product before. You show me this AFTER Christmas?!

I forgot to add this:

Michael and some other added that there are different styles of writing and perhaps mine may lend itself to being a little wordier than others.

I get that. However almost all of the feedback I've received has pointed out that my verbage has been excessive. Both 10-pagers I wrote had feedback that said the piece could have / should have been 5-6 pages pieces. And most of these people liked the core of what was there. I can see where the feedback is accurate and I'm inclined to side with those who have more experience and are more informed than I on this art.

Again, it's an odd feeling when I read it and think "I should know better." For me, this is like knowing how to drive a car but now attempting to fly a plane.

Quoted from Kip I'd have to agree with Cinemachado. Taking a scene from a movie, writing it as you think it should be done and then comparing it to how it's actually written in the script, gives you the opportunity to analyse where you're going wrong. I've done this for several scenes from one of my favourites, Get Carter, and it's amazing how much writing you don't need to actually do. Kip.

I took this philosophy to the feature length level.
The first script I ever wrote was based on a produced screenplay.
But I reworked the narrative to improve some shortcomings.
That helped me learn how to rewrite something that needs work.

The very first draft was 146 pages.
The last one was 101.
Still telling the very same story, but weaning off that overwriting.

Without those lessons, my voice on the page wouldn't have developed well.

Regards,
E.D.

Luckily, unlike alchoholism, there is successful recovery from overwriting.

Hi.  My name's Mark, and I'm a RECOVERED overwriter.

I don't know where to start.  I guess it was when I was a kid, and me and Stephen would get together after school.  I'd read his stories.  Some were 500 pages long.  Some were over 1,000.  Stephen was deep into the life.  I tried to be like him, but I just didn't have the gift of bullshit, nor the patience for it.

And even though I'm on a different route than Stephen King, he was still a huge influence for me, and that's why my early scripts were about 120-130 pages long when there was only about 80 pages of story.

Yes, Stephen King is arguably a little more popular than I am, :-), but I'm still very early in my career and eager to tell some great stories.

I still try to write some prose every now and then, but screenwriting is a lot more suitable medium for me because I hate bullshitting in stories.  I like to get in and out, tell the great story, leave a great impression, and get started on the next one because it's been crawling around inside my head.

Early on, I was very influenced to write my screenplays much like novels, because that's all that I had read at the time.  (And when I did come across scripts, they were always SHOOTING scripts, so when I tried to use them for a resource or guide, I was still doing it wrong anyway.)

When I finally came across here and read some of the better scripts on SimplyScripts, it helped me realize what I was doing wrong.  And, although I haven't really done this much because I hate being influenced by what I read or see, (like Stephen did to me when I was younger), but when I read some pro scripts, I'm learning a lot more on what to cut down on and what to focus on.

It's all patience and practice and learning how to streamline your descriptions.

I've told you, (I think on both your threads), I really don't mind overwriting, as long as it adds some delicious detail or a great atmosphere to the story, or puts a CLEAR picture in your head.  But, from what I remember about 'The Reader' and 'Can't See a Thing', all's your descriptions needed was streamlined.  You already had an atmosphere in 'Can't See a Thing', and you already had a delicious story in 'The Reader'.  I'm a firm believer in the best way to teach editing is by examples:

Quoted from The Reader ALEX, 25, leans over his printer that sits on a small desk. The printer hums as it spits out printed paper. He pulls a cell phone from his pocket as he picks up the paper and looking at the page dials.

ALEX, 25, leans over his printer as it spits out paper.
He picks one of the sheets up and dials a number off it.


See how you described the action in 41 words and 4 lines, while I described it in 24 words and 2 lines, without losing any image or any of the story.  It streamlines the information to the reader's head.

It may sound tedious, but when you apply this method to every single action, you will be surprised how fast your story will flow, especially on a feature.  Not to mention it keeps in time with 1 page = 1 minute of screen time, which is VERY important when it comes to production and figuring out the budget.

Quoted from The Reader Alex takes a pen from his desk and writes as he listens on the cell phone. EXT. DOUG’S HOUSE - DAY Alex walks up to the front door of a small house located on quiet street. He rings the doorbell and a second later Doug appears as he opens the door. Doug, 30, offers a warm smile behind a dark beard.

Alex writes the address down.
EXT. DOUG'S HOUSE - DAY
A quiet neighborhood.  Alex walks up to the front door and rings the doorbell.
DOUG, 30, with a three-day beard growth, smiles at him.


Yours:  56 words and 7 lines.  (Excluding the slug)
Mine:  29 words and 3 lines.  (Excluding the slug)

I was able to cut those descriptions down by more than half without losing any of the story.  (I liked having it a quiet neighborhood to contrast the horror inside the house, and Doug's smiling being a relief that someone else is finally there.)


Hopefully, you get my drift from just those few examples.  Like I said, there's nothing wrong with detailed descriptions and visuals, just make sure you're focusing on the right details.

Hope this helps some, Ed.

- Mark

Quoted from CrusaderVoice If 'machado read The Reader then I have to thank him for not calling me out directly for having a character collapse "face first on to the light brown carpeted floor"...from a (slinking under my desk now) "tan couch." I will be sheepishly logging off now...will check back later.

I hadn't read it. I just pointed those things out because they are very common in overwritten scripts.

Mainly because people tend to think that screenwriting is similar to novel writing. It's very different. In fact, I would say it takes a completely different skill set to be a good novel writer than it does to be a good screenwriter.

I don't have the vocabulary to be a novel writer, so here I am. =D

Not much to add to a very useful SS thread and I totally agree on keeping things tight, but...

....one thing I am learning, slowly, is that one day you may to have to impress a reader, normally a consultant etc, and persuade them that your script is the dog's bollocks. They need to believe in your story, your structure and amongst other things, you as a writer.

Sometimes they hate over writing, sometimes they love embellishment. What enriches, what takes away - a fine balance.

So, choose your moment to "go over board"(wrong phrase but let's use it for now), as a quality, full description at the right place- there are aren't many of them - will help the read, make you look a stronger writer etc. Still work in progress for me, but as they say, there are many rules and no rules. Know when to break them...if only it was that easy.

All the best

That's a very good point. You can't always be so short with your words.

For example, if you were writing a love story about a couple torn apart, and they finally meet again, you probably should do more than:

They run to each other and kiss.

Take these moments to describe their passion and things like that.

Think of it in terms of the movie again. Whenever you picture something as a big moment in your story. Make it a big moment in you writing... if you want.

Totally agree with Reef Dreamer.

Some scenes just deserve more detail than others IMO.  Usually I think those scenes tend to be around the midpoint, the climax or the inciting incident.  Those critical checkpoints in your script where each action or word feels significant is where I think it's fine to indulge in some detail.

Your writing should still flow forward at a brisk pace but sometimes I think it's okay to slow it down a bit at those kinds of scenes with some nice details.  Cinemachado stated an example which I feel is spot on.

I think you've got more than your fair share of well rounded feedback here, Ed. I think all of it's worth considering. But in the interest of helping you improve, I'll say this...

Learning how not to overwrite takes time and practice. I still do it from time to time but I've grown much more wary of it and have gotten quite good at scaling back excess. That takes an eye for what excess is, first and foremost, which takes time to develop.

A good way to practice writing more economically is keeping track of how many lines you're using and how many words you're using in each line. The rule of thumb is 4-5 lines per paragraph but 2-3 is always preferable. You might have a paragraph with four lines that works fine as is but if you can find a way to cut it down to three, all the better. If the last line of your paragraph only has a handful of words in it, as opposed to half a sentence, that's usually a good opportunity to tighten up, even if you've already got 2-3 lines.

I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to cut down your writing if the writing already works. I have read scripts where the writing has been sparse to a fault. What I'm saying is you should always be looking out for this kind of stuff.

All that said, I think it's okay to overwrite first drafts. Not to say you should try to overwrite but it's always better to have to scale something back than to have to fill something in. Ultimately, it's more good practice for the long run.

I've been unaware of MoviePoet, Pia. Thanks! I'd even had MP referenced to me a couple of times but I didn't know what it was.

Mark- those examples did help and hopefully serve as help to others who happen to be reading this (if nothing else, hopefully I can be a shining example of how NOT to do something). Congrats on your recovery by the way...I hope I make it to the "other side" of this where are  you.

James, my first drafts will all likely be over-written...I'm comfortable with that but not comfortable or skilled at knowing how to edit yet. Like 'wings post, it will likely take three or four attempts (at least) at chopping what I have down but I need to develop an instinct for where to apply the scissors.

When I saw what Reef posted (and the responses to that had some great examples), my first thought was actually: if there's a place for embellishment in a script, should (for this stage of my writing) that come through a character's dialog? Given, of course, that situation would need to fit the character and circumstances. Does thinking that way keep one from writing a paragraph of action lines?

Crusader I din't mean to make you feel like an idiot. *sigh*  I'm just saying it's something we all struggle with at one time or another.

I have managed to write leaner over the year I've been doing this, but I'm still in need of learning how to tell the story with less words.

Work work work...practice...get feedback...work some more :) You will improve ...

Have to say this is something I have constantly battling with and have found there's a needs for a balance.

After much feedback from SS members I found myself cutting back my action lines  sooooo much, that the overall feel of the scenes where a bit dull.

Sure cut it back and only show descriptions that are relevant to the story though not at the expense of the read.

Read as many scripts as you can and this will give a feel for the writing.

A prospective producer reading your screenplay will look at the tightness of the writing, as well as the choice or words and their relevance to the story being told, the critical part is the story though, you can write the best written screenplay if the story "Sucks" you're wasting your time.

Get the story right first, then fix the writing.  

Alex

I agree with Angry Bear - MP could be the magic pill. You get your story on 8 pages then you cut all the unnecessary until it's down to 5 - great discipline.

I'm an under-writer but not the clean, lean and mean type but the kind Bill and Felipe are talking about. I say things in the most boring way, omit all the descriptions (not because they are not needed but because I'm simply not good with them). So I'm the one fleshing out my story, characters, action, descriptions in the end. And I do that all the time, with every script. I think being an over-writer is lesser of a problem, under-writing is worse.

PY- you didn't make me feel like an idiot. That feeling comes natural to me.

Alex, it's good to know that the process doesn't have to come all together at once. In starting this process, "story" is all I have. Getting it on the page the right way is a problem.

khamamamama, the thought of writing shorts for MP or anywhere seemed like a stretch for me a few months ago. I'm not one of those people with 100 story ideas in my head nor one that can just conjure up something quick. But I went through subjects / topics for SS OWC and went through the MP site yesterday for the first time. Sometimes I had nothing, but sometimes I could see and hear some things that might have worked. I hope to take a swing at some of those over the next few months. Writing the two shorts I did turned into a valuable learning experience (this thread being one of those).

Adding to Alex's comments - I agree that you can't make your script devoid of all prose. You'll have a script with people "turns to..", "shakes head" , "scratches nose", etc and it becomes robotic. You need to infuse it with some prose, but the trick is to find where, when, why, how much...

Adding a little spice to a character's introduction is advisable, but how much prose should you devote to it? Key emotional scenes deserve some prose. Highlighting key plot points... I'm still learning all this but it comes down to practice and reading lots  of scripts.

MP is great for practicing the basics. Shorts are great for practice. When it comes to features, that's when you have to put it all together. Story, structure, pacing, prose, etc... that's what makes it hard.

Quoted from kingcooky555 Adding to Alex's comments - I agree that you can't make your script devoid of all prose. You'll have a script with people "turns to..", "shakes head" , "scratches nose", etc and it becomes robotic. You need to infuse it with some prose, but the trick is to find where, when, why, how much...

My rule of thumb primarily pertains to industry readers.
The low level gatekeepers to the bigger industry folk.
The goal...  Make it obvious enough so even a dumb reader enjoys the script!. ;D

To that end, I tend to explain certain critical parts of the tale.
And that's when I tend to lay on the prose to make sure my point gets across. :)

A writer I consult/associate produce for tried this recently.
And suddenly, we started getting better notes from readers.
And that gets our producer excited, which means he'll want to send it out soon!

If you're an unknown actively peddling your wares, this philosophy can help you.
Make sure even STUPID READERS get you! ;D

Regards,
E.D.

Hey, damnit...none of the Dreamie shit...unless it's coming from one of the fairer persuasion, as in female.

I sill want to add some stuff and will ASAP.  Been away on business.

Write what you have to say.

Shawn.....><








<<<---------------------<<

Quoted from Ledbetter Write what you have to say. Shawn.....>< <<<---------------------<<

You freak!!!!!!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D