Hi everyone.

With Christmas coming up I was gonna see what screenwriting books people swear by and ones they avoid.

My favs:
"Writing the Romantic Comedy" by Billy Mernit.
"101 Habits of Successful Screenwriters".

I enjoy Syd Field Guide to Screenwriting, Idiots Guide to Screenwriting (I read this again recently. My first screenwriting book when I was a teenager. Doesn't quite hold up many years later ha).

The one book I could never get into is Robert McKee. Probably the opposite of his intention, but 100 pages in and I start to feel really nervous and inhibited.

This Christmas, I'm considering perhaps "Save the Cat" or another Syd Field?

Specifically. Does anyone know of  any screenwriting books which provide you with good action direction?
This past year I've been collecting a lot of action direction (to help break up dialogue):

"He nods. She sighs. He shrugs. He gleams. He frowns.
He blinks. He is taken aback. He looks down... etc."

I was wondering if there was a book out there that could provide me with a short hand?
Few years back, I bought a book on emotions ha. And another two on positive traits and negative traits.

Anyways.
I'll check back on this thread Friday. Have a good week everyone.

"He nods. She sighs. He shrugs. He gleams. He frowns.
He blinks. He is taken aback. He looks down... etc."


You'll get called out for "Directing Actors" in the major festivals/comps for that, just to warn you.

John Truby Anatomy of Story is very good.


The only thing really missing from it is the awareness that you can split the Protagonist (The one who pushes the action) and the Main Character (POV), which is a common problem in these type of books..they all focus on a singular "hero" who is both the Protagonist and the Main Character.


If you're confused by that think of Sherlock Holmes: Holmes is the Protagonist who constantly forces the story forwards, but it's Watson who is the Main Character and offers us his POV into the world




I've got those books on emotions...and their books on settings as well. Quite good, I think.


Save the Cat is OK. Quite basic. You probably need Save the Cat goes to the Movies, as well, to get the extra beats for the other genres. He offers differnt beat sheets for different genres eg monster in the House, Golden Fleece...something i think people don't realise when they discuss his work as they seem to focus on the singular beat sheet he made in the first book.

All LindA Seeger books are great and not overly expensive.

Also enjoyed and got a lot from Robert McKee’s Dialogue but it’s a hard read.

Everybody should start though with Trotier’s “Screenwriters bible”

Quoted from The Dark Horse Specifically. Does anyone know of  any screenwriting books which provide you with good action direction? This past year I've been collecting a lot of action direction (to help break up dialogue): "He nods. She sighs. He shrugs. He gleams. He frowns. He blinks. He is taken aback. He looks down... etc."

This isn't an effective way to break up dialogue, it just adds unnecessary beats. I'm not sure it qualifies for "directing actors" as STF suggests, and there is a place for it on the page, but you should only be using it when it's absolutely necessary, such as responding to a question or reacting to the dialogue, not simply going along with what's being said.

Break up your dialogue with meaningful action or don't bother breaking it up. If you find that leaves you with a bunch of long monologues you have a different problem. Unless you're writing an Aaron Sorkin drama you shouldn't have that much monologuing. Cut it.

McKee's book is daunting for sure. I have a hard copy and the audio book and every time I get into either I discover something I hadn't noticed before. It's super dense and full of excellent advice, and it's no wonder the man can lecture on it for over twenty years and still get repeat customers.

My favourite resource is the Scriptnotes podcast. It has excellent screenwriting advice and tons of useful information about the industry. Having a knowledge of the industry, and also how films are actually made, greatly informs your writing and can inherently make your projects more attractive.

For books, it really comes down to what works for you. Some people are eternally grateful to Save The Cat for teaching them how to write a screenplay. Some say Joseph Campbell is their guru, or Syd Field, or John Truby, or Michael Hague, etc. No one book will tell you everything you want to know, and all of them boil down to essentially the same information presented in different ways. Find which ones speak to you and follow them.

Then, once you've learned what you need and are able to write without them, you'll learn to forget what they taught you and forge your own path. Nobody wants to read a Save The Cat screenplay any more. But I still think there's value in those books and their differing paradigms to give writers a solid foundation to build from. So use what works for you, reject what doesn't, and learn as much as you can until you have the knowledge and the confidence to start writing on your own.

And if that sounds like a lot of work...it is. Screenwriting is HARD. Treat learning about screenwriting like you would any career change. It takes the same amount of time and effort.

How Not To Write A Screenplay -  Denny Martin Flinn

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/50503/how-not-to-write-a-screenplay-by-denny-martin-flinn/9781580650151/

Great book Ren put me on to.

Most of the books seem to espouse some form 'system' that you should use, which I don't think helps anyone find their own voice and may be why may Hollywood films seem similar.

Only book I would recommend is Trottier's Screenwriter's Bible as it's great on the nuts and bolts of formatting.

I'd second LC on 'How Not To Write A Screenplay'.  A little more nuts and bolts approach to writing, but it offers a reader's perspective and features a section on writing action/description that a lot of books take for granted.

Writer’s journey - it espouses Campbell put into screenwriting. Excellent.

STORY by Robert McKee.

Ha. I always think of Brian Cox in Adaptation when I think of McKee.

Hmm. Yeah. I might try out Screenwriter’s Bible. Writer’s Journey. I might even just watch more movies and read more screenplays.

With action description, I’m trying to get into the habit of cutting down dialogue and suggesting it through action (whilst retaining emotional clarity). It's amazing how a look or a nod can speak volumes.

So yeah. I’m only doing necessary stuff (someone clutching a comfort item or sneering, etc) as opposed to someone scratching their back for no reason ha or going into exact detail over what the character is doing.

All great suggestions,
Thanks everyone

Don't direct actors in your script = bullshit.

I have never read completely read a screenwriting book.   Maybe that's a bad thing.

- I have used Trottier extensively for format. But that was all Google based search (e.g., how to format blah, blah, blah - and there's an answer. Same for the Screenwriting Bible. I think the key is to know what you don't know and make sure you search for an answer.  

- Read parts of both Save The Cats - hmm. Found the concept of beats informative and interesting. Found the rigorous page placement of those beats downright silly.

- Have listened to McKee on video - not a fan. Found him pompous and uninteresting.

etc. bits here - bits there.

Most of my learning has been for reading scripts, reviewing scripts and comments I received on my own scripts - most notably in places like this one.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Don't direct actors in your script = bullshit.

I agree. "A strained smile" can say a lot. "Slipping hands into pockets" can say a lot. "Slumping in a chair" says a lot. "They laugh, eyes tearing" up says a lot. "Softly shaking his head", etc.

However, I could imagine too much of it would just slow the pace.

This is a very (very)  basic discussion on what I believe they're on about.

http://www.writesofluid.com/5-ways-direct-script-without-actually-directing/

In my experience it tends to go down better if you are more literary with it. You give the action and also some kind of internal process. At the higher end they don't seem to like just actions. I don't know. It's just something I mentioned because you'll find it crops up when you hit semis or finals of bigger stuff and they're really reaching for negatives to count you out.

Oh right. So you’d just have.. e.g.

John looks around, confused.

Something quick like that?

Honestly, mate. I don't know.

The only thing I can say is that the modern expectation is that scripts are entertaining to read and that the readers like these little moments to flow rather than just being static moments and they seem to like you to explain what's going on.

Like : John looks around, confused. Where the hell is Paul?

I'm not being much help, and I wish I hadn't mentioned it tbh! :)

As always: Just grab a load of the best recent pro scripts and see what they do and if what they do makes it read better.

If anything occurs to you...report it back here.

To be honest I can’t help but think we walk a tightrope between the two. I think your example is how I would’ve done it - quick, clean, clear. Safe. You can’t misinterpret it.

With the other method - you’re showing the actions and emotions without telling. But at the same time, a script reader (3pm on a Friday) could easily find “a nod” or whatever ambiguous (in this case you’re better off with John is confused).

It reminds me of that quote, “nobody is stupid but nobody likes to read”.

EDave,

OI agree on McKee. “Dialogue” - I slushed through the book. Excruciating pain. That being said the info was well worth it. ZI did get a lot out, but Seeger is the the best and easiest read.  Her subtext book (short and sweat) is excellent.

Quoted from JohnI EDave, OI agree on McKee. “Dialogue” - I slushed through the book. Excruciating pain. That being said the info was well worth it. ZI did get a lot out, but Seeger is the the best and easiest read.  Her subtext book (short and sweat) is excellent.

Will have to check i tout. I did listen to a part of a podcast with her and liked what she had to say.

I listened to McKee podcast - thought I was listening to CHARACTER OF THE GUY BY THE FIRESIDE AT MASTERPIECE THEATER, SPENT HALF THE TIME LKOOKING UP WORDS HE USED THAT HAD NO PLACE IN CONVERSATIUON AND FINALLY FELL ASLEPP WITH YOUTUBE RUNNING!

THAT WAS CARACITURE NIOT CHARACTER.

Quoted from JohnI I listened to McKee podcast - thought I was listening to CHARACTER OF THE GUY BY THE FIRESIDE AT MASTERPIECE THEATER, SPENT HALF THE TIME LKOOKING UP WORDS HE USED THAT HAD NO PLACE IN CONVERSATIUON AND FINALLY FELL ASLEPP WITH YOUTUBE RUNNING!

Yeah. he is a snooze fest

Starting out, I liked Save The Cat. As Rick mentioned, you need his second book because he doesn't go into enough detail about his genre groupings. The website is also useful as it breaks down the beats of major films.

But Truby's The Anatomy of Story is on a whole different level. I cannot recommend it enough, along with his audio recorded classes on genre. They are quite expensive but worth every penny imo.

On a related note, would anyone be interested in doing a group thing where we pick a movie every couple weeks and everyone breaks down the structure of the film?

Thought it might be cool to see the story beats laid out based on whatever "system" people are using. I know for me personally, it would help motivate me to study more films.

Just a (hungover) idea. Any interest?

Quoted from MarkItZero On a related note, would anyone be interested in doing a group thing where we pick a movie every couple weeks and everyone breaks down the structure of the film? Thought it might be cool to see the story beats laid out based on whatever "system" people are using. I know for me personally, it would help motivate me to study more films. Just a (hungover) idea. Any interest?

There is a thread for just that thing you're talking about, James, somewhere... Script Club, was it called? Perhaps Pia can point me in the direction of the ongoing thread, or I'll find it later. SSers would review, analyse produced pro scripts.

Quoted from LC There is a thread for just that thing you're talking about, James, somewhere... Script Club, was it called? Perhaps Pia can point me in the direction of the ongoing thread, or I'll find it later. SSers would review, analyse produced pro scripts.

Oh, I hadn't seen that. And I just realized there's also the Script Reviews thread which already kind of serves that purpose. But I only want to do it if others agree to ramble about the script and not just me lol. Anyways, I'm going to bed. I'll see if any of this makes sense in the morning.

Here's the link to one of them:

https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-screenwrite/m-1435353310/s-0/

There have been more.

You could get one going, see if any takers.

Good time for it seeing as there are no challenges for a while. :)

Quoted from LC Here's the link to one of them: https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-screenwrite/m-1435353310/s-0/ There have been more. You could get one going, see if any takers. Good time for it seeing as there are no challenges for a while. :)

Thanks, I'm surprised I haven't come across this before. Seems like they must have died out at some point. Maybe it can be resurrected, but probably not during the Holidays.

Perhaps one day a hero will rise up, return the Script Club to its former glory, and restore the realm.

Quoted from MarkItZero Thanks, I'm surprised I haven't come across this before. Seems like they must have died out at some point. Maybe it can be resurrected, but probably not during the Holidays. Perhaps one day a hero will rise up, return the Script Club to its former glory, and restore the realm.

During the holidays is the perfect time. You can get the McGuffin you need to complete your quest, then afterward take it back to the store under the Extended Return Period policy.

Quoted from FrankM During the holidays is the perfect time. You can get the McGuffin you need to complete your quest, then afterward take it back to the store under the Extended Return Period policy.

You can't quest for a McGuffin, let alone return it for store credit, without allies. Right now they're hiding in the woodwork like termites. Spraying with Raid might help...

Quoted from LC How Not To Write A Screenplay -  Denny Martin Flinn https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/50503/how-not-to-write-a-screenplay-by-denny-martin-flinn/9781580650151/ Great book Ren put me on.

This was the first screenwriting book I read and is still my favourite. I highly recommend it.

Save the Cat is kind of essential reading just so you know about it but please don’t follow it as gospel. So many writers have and we’ve ended up with thousands of similar scripts which are pretty much ruined because they’ve forced their inciting incident to happen on page 25 or something like that. The golden rule for me when following the advice from a book on screenplays is how successful in their writing career they have been. Blake Snyder made a lot of money from selling around 12 screenplays in the late ’80s and early ’90s. These include Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot, Blank Check, and Nuclear Family. The first is a terrible film, the second two I’ve never heard of. I’m not sure they were ever produced.

So Blake found a successful formula for selling scripts that worked on a few studios thirty years ago, and yet his method is supposed to be the best way to go about it now? WTF?

Anyway, good books to read about the business in general  I recommend are:

Adventures in the Screen Trade and Which Lie Did I Tell by the now dearly departed William Goldman

Tales from The Script by Peter Hanson

As for Robert Mckee I have a lot of time for the man. Just look up his career! His books are hard to get through but I was lucky enough to attend his three day Story seminar and he really knows his stuff. Some people don’t like his politics or opinions but I loved it. I wrote a blog about the seminar if you fancy a read.

http://mark-renshaw.com/robert-mckee-story-seminar-london-2018/