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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board  /  Horror Scripts  /  Step Seven
Posted by: Don, April 6th, 2020, 5:25pm
Step Seven by David C. Lambertson - Horror - A woman in an addiction recovery center must decide if the ghost that haunts her each night is a delusion or a spiritual warning of the fate that she is about to suffer.  111 pages - pdf format

Writer interested in feedback on this work

Posted by: eldave1, April 6th, 2020, 5:33pm; Reply: 1
Okay - so decided to try and stretch my genre experience and ended up with this. Not even sure if I got the genre right - kind of horror. Was trying to write a kind of mash-up between 28 days and Get Out.

Anyway - any and all thoughts appreciated.
Posted by: spesh2k, April 6th, 2020, 5:34pm; Reply: 2
Hey David,

Dig the log line. And I already know the writing's gonna be top notch, so it should be a breeze to read. And I'm bored as shit, probably been reading at least two features a day for the past week. Probably getcha a review at some point tonight.

-- Michael
Posted by: eldave1, April 6th, 2020, 5:35pm; Reply: 3

Quoted from spesh2k
Hey David,

Dig the log line. And I already know the writing's gonna be top notch, so it should be a breeze to read. And I'm bored as shit, probably been reading at least two features a day for the past week. Probably getcha a review at some point tonight.

-- Michael


Wow - you da man!
Posted by: spesh2k, April 6th, 2020, 11:59pm; Reply: 4
All right, David, so I did like it... but not as much as I wanted to. It was a bit of slow burn, which I don't mind. I can appreciate a deliberate pace. Did take a while to get going, but you had a nice end to the 1st act with Maria's suicide. Things did take some interesting turns -- and it made me remember little hints from earlier. With Dr. Malcam touching Natalie's knee, being very touchy feely... all the girls looking the same... and then it got more interesting with the shared similarities between Natalie and Maria and the other girls who mysteriously died.

I'm just not really sure if the ghost angle works or not. It makes sense that there wouldn't be any paranormal stuff happening until after Maria kills herself, but in terms of the overall tone and feel we have with the story in the first 35-40 pages, seeing ghost stuff happening that deep into a film feels a little off. Up to that point, it kinda felt like just a drama pretty much about an addict... then I got a little bit of Girl Interrupted... a little bit of Shutter Island -- the burned groundskeeper who stares at people kinda gave it an uneasy vibe, like an omen of sorts -- but then we get a ghost film 34-40 minutes in. I don't mind plot turns that take us to unexpected places near the halfway point of the story, but, to me, the type of film it became was so much different then what came before it. It almost reminded of From Dusk Til Dawn a little bit -- which I liked. But it goes from a crime story and, at the halfway point, it becomes a bat-shit crazy vampire flick.

I wasn't so sure about a lot of the 3rd act -- Dr. Malcam goes from very calculating and manipulative to a James Bond villain when he's talking to Harley... then he just goes all Jack Torrance on us. And I didn't understand his motivations. I mean, I knew he was a rapist and his motivation was to rape. But going through all these steps to get there, just felt like it would be a lot of work for a rapist. I understand him getting off because of the power it gives him, the way it makes him feel like almost God like, a higher power so to speak... but it's a really specific method and fetish for a rapist to get off to.

Again, not sure if the ghost angle really works. I think maybe that paranormal element was introduced earlier in the story? Maybe with her mother? Instead of just one flashback of the car accident, maybe it plays through her mind or maybe her dreams, haunting her?

And then the conclusion of the story is presented through voice over, which really caught me off guard... I was waiting for the voice over to carry over to Natalie actually speaking to a person, continuing her dialogue. There wasn't any other voice over in the script. Not saying there has to be voice over throughout, but maybe start off with some voice over so that it can be a bookend? If not, maybe have her voice over at the end carry over to an actual conversation with maybe Sharon, telling her what happened to everybody? There is a scene where they talk about meeting up once Natalie got out -- and Sharon says it probably wouldn't happen.

The characters were fine, though I'm not sure if I liked Natalie. I definitely felt sympathy for her. But I didn't like her. And by "like", I mean I didn't find her very interesting. Travis Bickle wasn't very likable but he was super interesting. The strongest character here was Dr. Malcam. He was very powerful, manipulative and commanding and, once it's revealed how he beds these women, I can see these weak, vulnerable souls submitting to him. He got a little cartoonish at the end, which didn't really match the tone of the rest of the story. But it did make for an interesting arc.

The writing was very solid as usual, didn't really have to worry about that. Though sometimes the character descriptions get a little long and make me stop for a moment. But it's also a great way to simulate a beat without saying, "beat" in the description. So not big a deal. Descriptions were smooth, easy to read. And the dialogue was good -- though all the best lines were given to your villain, Dr. Malcam.

Overall, I'm still wondering if the ghost element can really work. I think it could. But I feel that element would have to appear earlier in the story so that it doesn't feel like we're going suddenly from Girl, Interrupted to Sixth Sense a half-hour/forty minutes in. Let's say the film gets made and they market it as a ghost story... but we don't see ghosts till 40 minutes in, that might displease the audience, if that makes any sense.

The subject matter is relevant, so I feel like it has purpose. And it has a pretty strong premise, a strong, very unlikable villain, and the makings of a decent protagonist in Natalie -- though she seemed just a tad one-note in the sense that I just felt bad for her... and that was pretty much it.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this and see where you plan on going with things.

Here's some notes I took as I went along:

PAGE 5 - When Natalie sees Harley's face, maybe her saying, "Jesus!" is a bit much. Maybe a flinch, or she's trying to hide her discomfort -- Harley knows that look and acknowledges it. Makes me not like Natalie a little bit, already. Unless that's what you wanted. We shall see...

PAGE 13 - Malcam replaces the rubber tip, then slides the cane on the desk towards Natalie. -- You repeated this action description.

PAGE 30 - Oh, shit. Reminds me of the scene from The Omen, kinda. But why do they have such easy access to a cliff? Seems like they're almost inviting their patients to jump.

PAGE 40 - I think the apparition can be better described to make it sound creepier, rather than just saying the apparition takes form. Even something like a shadow in the outline of a person... or something like that.

PAGE 41 - Nice little scare, here.

So, they're just allowed to roam free?

PAGE 43 -
NATALIE: It wasn't a dream.
DOCTOR MALCAM: Of course it was. The alternative is an impossibility.

Hmm... I feel like Doctor Malcam is up to something here. So, he's pretty much telling Natalie to submit to a higher power - but he doesn't believe Natalie's visions are possible? I'm guessing the higher power isn't something supernatural?

PAGE 45 - Aren't they worried about family members sneaking in drugs? Security doesn't seem very tight around here, doesn't quite match up to Dr. Malcam's no-nonsense approach.

PAGE 51 - I still don't really have a good idea of what this ghost looks like. Maybe I missed something.

Doctor Malcam feels like an extension of the Judge at the beginning at times... well, given screen time, the Judge is an extension of Doctor Malcam.

PAGE 60 - There's the ghost.

PAGE 69 - So, Harley feels a chill here. Guessing the ghost isn't just inside Natalie's head.

PAGE 73 - Malcam strokes his chin a lot.

RANDOM NOTE: I like how you have a countdown - it ends at step seven.

PAGE 80 - Ugh. What a creep.

PAGE 82 - Very interesting.

PAGE 90 - Geez, Malcam got all James-Bond villain on old Harley.

BOTTOM OF PAGE 90 - DOCTOR MALCAM: Just another addict who relapsed.
Probably could do without that dialogue, we get what's going on.

Meant to mention this earlier, but I really like your steps as on-screen text feels almost like chapters.

PAGE 97 - So, if you don't have sex with Malcam, he kills you? Is this like a ritualistic type thing going on? I understand he's psychotic, but this is such a specific thing to get off to... seems like a lot of work and patience on his part, as far as rapists go. Makes me wonder about his past.

PAGE 99 - Well, he's just gone bat shit crazy at this point.

PAGE 100 - Not sure about this ending.

PAGE 101 - Hmm, would Natalie really get a job again as a nurse? Really, really doubt that. I wouldn't trust her.

THE ENDING - Not sure if ending this with Natalie's voice-over, telling us everything that happened all the rest of the characters. Not saying the whole narrative has to be pushed by voice over, but it just kinda seems out of nowhere.  Maybe if the story began with a voice over, as kind of a bookend? If not, maybe start the ending with the voice over and have it take us to her actual dialogue, perhaps speaking to somebody? Maybe Sharon? After all, they do have a conversation about seeing each other once Natalie got out. And Sharon says she probably wouldn't.

-- Michael
Posted by: Fais85, April 7th, 2020, 12:58pm; Reply: 5
Dave,

Just finished this.

The writing was top-notch as always. I liked how you wrote each scene by squeezing every moment to create more and more drama.

I found two typos...

Page 13 - Malcam replaces the rubber tip... (The sentence is written twice)

Page 67 - "swirls if in his mouth a bit." - Did you mean "swirls it in his mouth a bit"


*SPOILERS AHEAD*


We've seen Malcam watching CCTV footage of Natalie. It means there are CCTVs. When Harley sneaks into Natalie's cottage, it must have been caught on CCTV. As Natalie is the next target for Malcam and he is so much interested in her, he'll definitely spy upon her activities.

It'll be good to remove the scene where Specter and Malcam talk over the phone on Page 33. Let the fact that Specter is also with Malcam in this scandal, revealed layer by layer as it is already getting revealed.

I wasn't a big fan of the climax. Why Malcam was attracted to a ghost? He knows Maria is dead. He would freak out. Of course, you can justify this by adding more drama. Right now, I am not sure how?

Not sure about others, but from the beginning, I had a feeling that Malcam is the villain. It was very clear from his behavior. To create more twists or drama, you may reconsider that by making Malcam a very good guy and shifting all our hate and suspicion towards some other person. i.e. Harley

I wouldn't call this script horror though. It has some horror elements. Sure. But they come too late in the script.

I've read somewhere that whatever genre you are aiming for, you should clearly establish that in the beginning. I always follow this rule for each and every script I write. I know rules are meant to be broken. But, by doing that sometimes the audience feels confused when the movie suddenly shifts the gear and turns into something else.

Overall, it was a nice fluid read. Great job.
Posted by: eldave1, April 7th, 2020, 3:33pm; Reply: 6

Quoted from spesh2k
All right, David, so I did like it... but not as much as I wanted to. It was a bit of slow burn, which I don't mind.l


First, Michael – thanks for the read and the detailed comments – much appreciated.

Just a bit of background  - so, my chosen genres have been Rom/Com, Comedy, Dramedy and straight drama.  Never attempted anything in the horror/supernatural area and thought it was time to stretch a l little bit – hence this effort.

When I started in my mind – this was going to be 28 Days meets Get Out and using the steps of the AA program as a pacing technique. The first go at this was straight psychological horror. Malcam was actually the human incarnation of a demon named “Semyaza” (from the  Book of Enoch, Semyaza is the leader of a band of rebellious 'holy ones' or renegade 'sons of God' called the Watchers, who, because they became consumed with lust for mortal women and entered into machinations against heaven in order to consummate their sinful desires with human females). Plus – he is really creepy looking. There were no ghosts – Natalie was being visited and mentally tortured by that demon during her stay at the center. And again – that demon was Malcam – Malcam during the day – Semyaza after nightfall.  Anyway – wrote that – hated it – shit canned it.

Then I morphed to the ghost. Very long winded way of saying the issue you raise in terms of how haphazard the genre/story for his one is had its genesis in that and I think ergo the problem I need to solve.

After reading your comments, I agree that problem starts  here:  

I'm just not really sure if the ghost angle works or not. It makes sense that there wouldn't be any paranormal stuff happening until after Maria kills herself, but in terms of the overall tone and feel we have with the story in the first 35-40 pages, seeing ghost stuff happening that deep into a film feels a little off. Up to that point, it kinda felt like just a drama pretty much about an addict... then I got a little bit of Girl Interrupted... a little bit of Shutter Island -- the burned groundskeeper who stares at people kinda gave it an uneasy vibe, like an omen of sorts.

I believe this criticism is dead on. I am considering a draft of where Maria is someone who was in the program years before my story starts with Natalie, was a patient staying in the same cottage that Natalie is staying in present day, and who killed herself because of Malcam’s abuse.  That would allow be to move the first haunting to the first night Natalie is there. I think that would better shift the story premise from recovery drama/ghost story to ghost story set in a recovery center.

I may also go back to that original Semyaza horror and try to fix that.

I wasn't so sure about a lot of the 3rd act -- Dr. Malcam goes from very calculating and manipulative to a James Bond villain when he's talking to Harley... then he just goes all Jack Torrance on us. And I didn't understand his motivations. I mean, I knew he was a rapist and his motivation was to rape. But going through all these steps to get there, just felt like it would be a lot of work for a rapist. I understand him getting off because of the power it gives him, the way it makes him feel like almost God like, a higher power so to speak... but it's a really specific method and fetish for a rapist to get off to.



Fair point. This is where it is one of those areas where I am torn between foreshadowing and surprising. In my mind, Yes, I agree, if I show Malcam devolving (maybe he’s becoming a bit of an addict himself, maybe he’s going into town and picking up hookers – whatever) that would better explain how he ends up a lunatic at the end. Conversely, it also ruins any sense of WTF. Always torn on these things. Going to mull this over.

Again, not sure if the ghost angle really works. I think maybe that paranormal element was introduced earlier in the story? Maybe with her mother? Instead of just one flashback of the car accident, maybe it plays through her mind or maybe her dreams, haunting her?


See prior note – yeah, I think your right and if I stay with this story the Ghosting is going to be moved up to around page 12.

And then the conclusion of the story is presented through voice over, which really caught me off guard... I was waiting for the voice over to carry over to Natalie actually speaking to a person, continuing her dialogue. There wasn't any other voice over in the script. Not saying there has to be voice over throughout, but maybe start off with some voice over so that it can be a bookend? If not, maybe have her voice over at the end carry over to an actual conversation with maybe Sharon, telling her what happened to everybody? There is a scene where they talk about meeting up once Natalie got out -- and Sharon says it probably wouldn't happen.

I like this suggestion a lot – thanks.

The characters were fine, though I'm not sure if I liked Natalie. I definitely felt sympathy for her. But I didn't like her. And by "like", I mean I didn't find her very interesting. Travis Bickle wasn't very likable but he was super interesting. The strongest character here was Dr. Malcam. He was very powerful, manipulative and commanding and, once it's revealed how he beds these women, I can see these weak, vulnerable souls submitting to him. He got a little cartoonish at the end, which didn't really match the tone of the rest of the story. But it did make for an interesting arc.

I appreciate the comment about Natalie’s likeability – another tough one. The goal was to have her unlikable to start with (i.e., the selfish addict) and have her slowly become a better person. But if you didn’t find her interesting either – that’s an issue. Going to re-examine her character arc/characteristic to see if I can’t develop a greater rooting element.

PAGE 5 - When Natalie sees Harley's face, maybe her saying, "Jesus!" is a bit much. Maybe a flinch, or she's trying to hide her discomfort -- Harley knows that look and acknowledges it. Makes me not like Natalie a little bit, already. Unless that's what you wanted. We shall see...


Agree – good suggestion

PAGE 13 - Malcam replaces the rubber tip, then slides the cane on the desk towards Natalie. -- You repeated this action description.

Fixed - thanks

PAGE 30 - Oh, shit. Reminds me of the scene from The Omen, kinda. But why do they have such easy access to a cliff? Seems like they're almost inviting their patients to jump.

Movie logic? Yeah, I know – had the same thought but thought I could get away with it   Need a solution

PAGE 40 - I think the apparition can be better described to make it sound creepier, rather than just saying the apparition takes form. Even something like a shadow in the outline of a person... or something like that.


Like that.

PAGE 41 - Nice little scare, here.
So, they're just allowed to roam free?

Within the compound – yes. Most centers are like that

PAGE 43 -
NATALIE: It wasn't a dream.
DOCTOR MALCAM: Of course it was. The alternative is an impossibility.

Hmm... I feel like Doctor Malcam is up to something here. So, he's pretty much telling Natalie to submit to a higher power - but he doesn't believe Natalie's visions are possible? I'm guessing the higher power isn't something supernatural?


Confused by your point here

PAGE 45 - Aren't they worried about family members sneaking in drugs? Security doesn't seem very tight around here, doesn't quite match up to Dr. Malcam's no-nonsense approach.

As it turns out they are not. Two of my sisters were in centers like this and they pretty much trusted the families since they were paying big $$$ to cure their relatives so never really suspected of undermining that effort. Converesely, whenever addicts were allowed to go home for visits – they were thoroughly searched u[on re-entering.

PAGE 51 - I still don't really have a good idea of what this ghost looks like. Maybe I missed something.

Yeah,  in the redraft this will be much, much earlier.

Doctor Malcam feels like an extension of the Judge at the beginning at times... well, given screen time, the Judge is an extension of Doctor Malcam.

Didn’t mean for that to happen – they are both people in charge of other people – maybe their voices blended.

PAGE 73 - Malcam strokes his chin a lot.

Fair point 

BOTTOM OF PAGE 90 - DOCTOR MALCAM: Just another addict who relapsed.
Probably could do without that dialogue, we get what's going on.

Agree

PAGE 97 - So, if you don't have sex with Malcam, he kills you? Is this like a ritualistic type thing going on? I understand he's psychotic, but this is such a specific thing to get off to... seems like a lot of work and patience on his part, as far as rapists go. Makes me wonder about his past.

No. Guess this needs work. Up to Maria, Malcam was able to successfully manipulate these women through his exploitation of his role as the healer and the 12-step program – sort of a Stockholm syndrome type of thing. Maria is the first real roadblock followed by Natalie based on the warnings she got from Maria. He is going to kill Natalie anyway because she now knows about his evil past – same reason he killed Harley – but yeah, you’re right – it does get muddled here.

PAGE 100 - Not sure about this ending.

Noted

PAGE 101 - Hmm, would Natalie really get a job again as a nurse? Really, really doubt that. I wouldn't trust her.

Implication was that it was in a new rural small town – i.e, they wouldn’t know about her past

THE ENDING - Not sure if ending this with Natalie's voice-over, telling us everything that happened all the rest of the characters. Not saying the whole narrative has to be pushed by voice over, but it just kinda seems out of nowhere.  Maybe if the story began with a voice over, as kind of a bookend? If not, maybe start the ending with the voice over and have it take us to her actual dialogue, perhaps speaking to somebody? Maybe Sharon? After all, they do have a conversation about seeing each other once Natalie got out. And Sharon says she probably wouldn't.

Like the suggestion here.

Thanks again, Michael – very helpful suggestions.  Much appreciated
Posted by: eldave1, April 7th, 2020, 3:35pm; Reply: 7

Quoted from Fais85
Dave,

Just finished this.

The writing was top-notch as always. I liked how you wrote each scene by squeezing every moment to create more and more drama.

I found two typos...

Page 13 - Malcam replaces the rubber tip... (The sentence is written twice)

Page 67 - "swirls if in his mouth a bit." - Did you mean "swirls it in his mouth a bit"


*SPOILERS AHEAD*


We've seen Malcam watching CCTV footage of Natalie. It means there are CCTVs. When Harley sneaks into Natalie's cottage, it must have been caught on CCTV. As Natalie is the next target for Malcam and he is so much interested in her, he'll definitely spy upon her activities.

It'll be good to remove the scene where Specter and Malcam talk over the phone on Page 33. Let the fact that Specter is also with Malcam in this scandal, revealed layer by layer as it is already getting revealed.

I wasn't a big fan of the climax. Why Malcam was attracted to a ghost? He knows Maria is dead. He would freak out. Of course, you can justify this by adding more drama. Right now, I am not sure how?

Not sure about others, but from the beginning, I had a feeling that Malcam is the villain. It was very clear from his behavior. To create more twists or drama, you may reconsider that by making Malcam a very good guy and shifting all our hate and suspicion towards some other person. i.e. Harley

I wouldn't call this script horror though. It has some horror elements. Sure. But they come too late in the script.

I've read somewhere that whatever genre you are aiming for, you should clearly establish that in the beginning. I always follow this rule for each and every script I write. I know rules are meant to be broken. But, by doing that sometimes the audience feels confused when the movie suddenly shifts the gear and turns into something else.

Overall, it was a nice fluid read. Great job.


Thanks, mate - much appreciated.

I think you make some solid points - I am going to use them all in the next draft. Thanks!
Posted by: spesh2k, April 7th, 2020, 4:36pm; Reply: 8

Quoted Text
I believe this criticism is dead on. I am considering a draft of where Maria is someone who was in the program years before my story starts with Natalie, was a patient staying in the same cottage that Natalie is staying in present day, and who killed herself because of Malcam’s abuse.  That would allow be to move the first haunting to the first night Natalie is there. I think that would better shift the story premise from recovery drama/ghost story to ghost story set in a recovery center.


That's something I can see working pretty well, actually. But I still think there should be something at the beginning -- not necessarily a haunting, but maybe an intense opening scene, perhaps even the actual car accident she was in -- not revealing everything that happens right away, but maybe showing a portion of the car accident -- maybe just the impact, watching her mother fly through the windshield or whatever happens. Then maybe before she is picked up for her trip to the treatment center, she has a nightmare of her mom in the wreckage and maybe she sits up with a grotesque grin. I don't know, just something to set the tone for what's coming, it doesn't have to be a full out apparition. But just a frightening visual.


Quoted Text
Fair point. This is where it is one of those areas where I am torn between foreshadowing and surprising. In my mind, Yes, I agree, if I show Malcam devolving (maybe he’s becoming a bit of an addict himself, maybe he’s going into town and picking up hookers – whatever) that would better explain how he ends up a lunatic at the end. Conversely, it also ruins any sense of WTF. Always torn on these things. Going to mull this over.


There is some foreshadowing there -- with the awkward touching, with his controlling, commanding manner of speaking to Natalie, telling her not to interrupt, etc. Picking up hookers might be a bit much. I'm more so talking about how he's practically frothing at the mouth at the end, swinging axes like he's Jack Torrance. He just seems so calculated -- and his whole method of getting these women to submit to him is so calculated. Him becoming a rapid animal pretty much seems out of character for him. Maybe leave some kind of hint earlier that he could be totally batshit crazy. Maybe he's a neat freak and he has a panicked outburst when something is out of place or something like that. I dunno, just something small as to not completely give away his reveal.


Quoted Text
I appreciate the comment about Natalie’s likeability – another tough one. The goal was to have her unlikable to start with (i.e., the selfish addict) and have her slowly become a better person. But if you didn’t find her interesting either – that’s an issue. Going to re-examine her character arc/characteristic to see if I can’t develop a greater rooting element.


Well, I actually did feel sorry for her, even in the first scene when the Judge is being a complete dick to her. And she could still be unlikable, but I feel like her whole personality is defined by her drug addiction. It could just be something the right actress might be able make work. I was watching "Foot Fist Way" the other day and the main character is such a piece of shit... but he's played by Danny McBride and he's hilarious. So it worked. I don't know.


Quoted Text
No. Guess this needs work. Up to Maria, Malcam was able to successfully manipulate these women through his exploitation of his role as the healer and the 12-step program – sort of a Stockholm syndrome type of thing. Maria is the first real roadblock followed by Natalie based on the warnings she got from Maria. He is going to kill Natalie anyway because she now knows about his evil past – same reason he killed Harley – but yeah, you’re right – it does get muddled here.


I'm sure rapists, like serial killers, have repeated patterns, so it's not that far off. Actually thinking about it since I last commented on it, I've kinda changed my position on this a little bit. He gets a thrill out of the process, similar to the way a serial killer gets a thrill out of the hunt.
Posted by: eldave1, April 7th, 2020, 5:13pm; Reply: 9

Quoted from spesh2k


That's something I can see working pretty well, actually. But I still think there should be something at the beginning -- not necessarily a haunting, but maybe an intense opening scene, perhaps even the actual car accident she was in -- not revealing everything that happens right away, but maybe showing a portion of the car accident -- maybe just the impact, watching her mother fly through the windshield or whatever happens. Then maybe before she is picked up for her trip to the treatment center, she has a nightmare of her mom in the wreckage and maybe she sits up with a grotesque grin. I don't know, just something to set the tone for what's coming, it doesn't have to be a full out apparition. But just a frightening visual.

Thanks, mate

Going to let this percolate in my head during this week and start something next week -  mess around with the variables with the key of moving ghost to the forefront, recovery to the background - we'll see :)

There is some foreshadowing there -- with the awkward touching, with his controlling, commanding manner of speaking to Natalie, telling her not to interrupt, etc. Picking up hookers might be a bit much. I'm more so talking about how he's practically frothing at the mouth at the end, swinging axes like he's Jack Torrance. He just seems so calculated -- and his whole method of getting these women to submit to him is so calculated. Him becoming a rapid animal pretty much seems out of character for him. Maybe leave some kind of hint earlier that he could be totally batshit crazy. Maybe he's a neat freak and he has a panicked outburst when something is out of place or something like that. I dunno, just something small as to not completely give away his reveal.



Well, I actually did feel sorry for her, even in the first scene when the Judge is being a complete dick to her. And she could still be unlikable, but I feel like her whole personality is defined by her drug addiction. It could just be something the right actress might be able make work. I was watching "Foot Fist Way" the other day and the main character is such a piece of shit... but he's played by Danny McBride and he's hilarious. So it worked. I don't know.



I'm sure rapists, like serial killers, have repeated patterns, so it's not that far off. Actually thinking about it since I last commented on it, I've kinda changed my position on this a little bit. He gets a thrill out of the process, similar to the way a serial killer gets a thrill out of the hunt.


Posted by: ghost and_ghostie gal, April 8th, 2020, 8:46pm; Reply: 10
Ahoy Dave,

So I read this at 2 am thanks to my screwed up sleep schedule. ;D

Hmm...I'm certainly not an expert in the business, but I'm part of the public so I'll give my view on it as an audience member.  Vividly written. Nice pacing, some interesting characters, and strong descriptions.  It was an easy read and enjoyable.


Quoted Text
I am considering a draft of where Maria is someone who was in the program years before my story starts with Natalie, was a patient staying in the same cottage that Natalie is staying in present day, and who killed herself because of Malcam’s abuse.  That would allow be to move the first haunting to the first night Natalie is there. I think that would better shift the story premise from recovery drama/ghost story to ghost story set in a recovery center.


Interesting you should bring this up.  

Coincidentally, this too jumped out at me after reading, so I 100% agree!  It adds a bit of mystery, and we (the audience) can watch it unfold with the rest of the story.

And this is going to be howwible nitpicky, and I'll admit, it's more of a personal preference, but it feels like something needs to happen up front.  That doesn't necessarily mean a shocker opening. If the reader doesn't **** his/her pants/panties by page 2 we're lost!  By any means.  

That aside, there's nothing inherently wrong with starting the script where you did, clearly the slower buildup was your aim.  I mean, IMO, horror is in the reaction of the victims, the dread of what's coming next. It's not just about blood and gore and how grossed out you can make the viewer. If you take away the shock factor, is it still frightening?

Do you like chocolate ice cream or strawberry?  I like both!  What a suck a$$ analogy.

So I'm down with your sequence of events/story roll out. But I think there's room to infuse more suspense in the first act (which is where I'd focus if it were my material), at its core something billed as horror must be scary.

So, consider having more of a creepy vibe rippling beneath the surface of almost every scene throughout your first act, like something isn't quite right but you're not sure what it is.   Sure, Natalie’s initial encounter with Harley is creepy.  Also, same goes for her first meeting with Malcam.  But outside that, most of the scenes were too on-the-surface for me.  Now, you did a much better job during the second/third acts.  

Like the real first scared the **** out of me moments when Natalie hurls there remote against the wall and the cottage goes dark - and the ghost made its presence known.

Loved the dialog throughout. Especially Natalie and Malcam.  You create character through dialog very well.

Oh yea, the knife just happens to be under the mattress? How convenient. Does it work, yes, but... you made it waaaay too easy. Just say'n...

Spesh2K made some good points about the ending.  

But alas, on a deep and personal level: I'll skip the details - I think your character work is good and I "got" Natalie entirely. Struggling with her inner demons. I felt all of Natalie's actions felt human - flawed - yet very human.  And since I'm a woman, too, I totally understood her reactions.

Anywayz - thems some thoughts.  Dug the read - not much I can add at the moment. Hope it helps in some way, good luck with it. :)-A

Posted by: eldave1, April 8th, 2020, 9:22pm; Reply: 11

Ahoy Dave,

So I read this at 2 am thanks to my screwed up sleep schedule. ;D

Hmm...I'm certainly not an expert in the business, but I'm part of the public so I'll give my view on it as an audience member.  Vividly written. Nice pacing, some interesting characters, and strong descriptions.  It was an easy read and enjoyable.



Interesting you should bring this up.  

Coincidentally, this too jumped out at me after reading, so I 100% agree!  It adds a bit of mystery, and we (the audience) can watch it unfold with the rest of the story.

And this is going to be howwible nitpicky, and I'll admit, it's more of a personal preference, but it feels like something needs to happen up front.  That doesn't necessarily mean a shocker opening. If the reader doesn't **** his/her pants/panties by page 2 we're lost!  By any means.  

That aside, there's nothing inherently wrong with starting the script where you did, clearly the slower buildup was your aim.  I mean, IMO, horror is in the reaction of the victims, the dread of what's coming next. It's not just about blood and gore and how grossed out you can make the viewer. If you take away the shock factor, is it still frightening?

Do you like chocolate ice cream or strawberry?  I like both!  What a suck a$$ analogy.

So I'm down with your sequence of events/story roll out. But I think there's room to infuse more suspense in the first act (which is where I'd focus if it were my material), at its core something billed as horror must be scary.

So, consider having more of a creepy vibe rippling beneath the surface of almost every scene throughout your first act, like something isn't quite right but you're not sure what it is.   Sure, Natalie’s initial encounter with Harley is creepy.  Also, same goes for her first meeting with Malcam.  But outside that, most of the scenes were too on-the-surface for me.  Now, you did a much better job during the second/third acts.  

Like the real first scared the **** out of me moments when Natalie hurls there remote against the wall and the cottage goes dark - and the ghost made its presence known.

Loved the dialog throughout. Especially Natalie and Malcam.  You create character through dialog very well.

Oh yea, the knife just happens to be under the mattress? How convenient. Does it work, yes, but... you made it waaaay too easy. Just say'n...

Spesh2K made some good points about the ending.  

But alas, on a deep and personal level: I'll skip the details - I think your character work is good and I "got" Natalie entirely. Struggling with her inner demons. I felt all of Natalie's actions felt human - flawed - yet very human.  And since I'm a woman, too, I totally understood her reactions.

Anywayz - thems some thoughts.  Dug the read - not much I can add at the moment. Hope it helps in some way, good luck with it. :)-A



Thank you so much for your read and comments - truly appreciated, I am very much in alignment with your thoughts.

I started re-structuring the first act outline yesterday. I am going to:

Open with Maria's crumple body on the road at the bottom of the cliff - police presence, coroner et al.

Then - flash forward 4 years to Natalie in Court

Then have her see the ghost of Maria on her first night.

So, yes - definitely need to pop the opening.

Again - all your thoughts are dead on - thanks and be sure to let me know if you ever need a read.  
Posted by: ghost and_ghostie gal, April 9th, 2020, 12:57am; Reply: 12
Y'know, I quite dig your idea.  Secondly, it will help you nail the horror genre quicker.  Methinks it's a must.  Badda Bing Badda Boom. :)-Andrea
Posted by: eldave1, April 9th, 2020, 11:23am; Reply: 13

Y'know, I quite dig your idea.  Secondly, it will help you nail the horror genre quicker.  Methinks it's a must.  Badda Bing Badda Boom. :)-Andrea


Thanks, Andrea
Posted by: Yuvraj, April 11th, 2020, 2:08pm; Reply: 14
Hi Dave,

I have read your short scripts earlier and they were really helpful to me, as I learned a lot. So thank you for that.

This is the first feature of yours I read. It was pretty easy to read and I finished it in a single sitting.

Since I'm relatively new to this craft, maybe my opinion wouldn't matter much but still these are my thoughts that crossed my mind when I finished the script:

1) I don't feel this to be a horror script. I understand that there is a apparition in your story but that doesn't make it fit to be deemed as a horror script. There has to be some really creepy background and a set-up that gives you shivers, some graphic imagery and maybe some jump scares( not much though).

I think this script tilts more towards the drama/crime genre.

2) The thing that got me a bit confused was the character of Harley. Throughout the 1st act he had little to no conversation with Natalie and in the 2nd act he agrees to help her right away. I know that he uncovers the truth about Malcam but then also the resolution between Natalie and Harley seemed a tad to fast. Plus we have almost no background information about Harley besides him once been in the military.

3) The character that bugged me was Adena. All we are given about her is that she is just a blind follower of Malcam and nothing else. There is only one dialog that informs us that she was the first victim of Malcam and that's it. We are never told why she blindly follows Malcam which I suppose she knows is the bad guy. Seriously how couldn't she, she's with him for fifteen years.

4) Malcam came off as kinda odd criminal to me. The fact that he conducts the whole program with his victims to get them to step seven where he manipulates them and then goes to give them a choice. If they don't choose what he wants, he just kills them. He is indeed a very patient criminal.          

5) The main character, Natalie, what I felt was, had a very derivative persona. There were no surprises in her arc and she just came off as a predictable one. I know that she was a selfish and a mean lady at the beginning who goes onto become a better person but that's what every character in a rehab facility written as. There was no uniqueness in her that made her interesting.

Also it is the events/incidents that push forward Natalie in the story not her herself making some mistakes/events/incidents that progresses the story. Like, take the part where Harley involuntarily inspects Maria's Diary and tells about it to Natalie. If it weren't there, Natalie wouldn't have known the truth about Malcam ignoring that Maria's apparition warns her about him( no one believes though). My point is that it is the events that drive our main character forward not the opposite.

6) The twist about Judge Specter been also involved in the crime was interesting one. It took me by surprise.  

Well that is it.  

Maybe my opinion matters to you or maybe not. Who knows......      





  
Posted by: eldave1, April 11th, 2020, 7:16pm; Reply: 15

Quoted from Yuvraj
Hi Dave,

I have read your short scripts earlier and they were really helpful to me, as I learned a lot. So thank you for that.

This is the first feature of yours I read. It was pretty easy to read and I finished it in a single sitting.

Since I'm relatively new to this craft, maybe my opinion wouldn't matter much but still these are my thoughts that crossed my mind when I finished the script:

1) I don't feel this to be a horror script. I understand that there is a apparition in your story but that doesn't make it fit to be deemed as a horror script. There has to be some really creepy background and a set-up that gives you shivers, some graphic imagery and maybe some jump scares( not much though).

I think this script tilts more towards the drama/crime genre.

2) The thing that got me a bit confused was the character of Harley. Throughout the 1st act he had little to no conversation with Natalie and in the 2nd act he agrees to help her right away. I know that he uncovers the truth about Malcam but then also the resolution between Natalie and Harley seemed a tad to fast. Plus we have almost no background information about Harley besides him once been in the military.

3) The character that bugged me was Adena. All we are given about her is that she is just a blind follower of Malcam and nothing else. There is only one dialog that informs us that she was the first victim of Malcam and that's it. We are never told why she blindly follows Malcam which I suppose she knows is the bad guy. Seriously how couldn't she, she's with him for fifteen years.

4) Malcam came off as kinda odd criminal to me. The fact that he conducts the whole program with his victims to get them to step seven where he manipulates them and then goes to give them a choice. If they don't choose what he wants, he just kills them. He is indeed a very patient criminal.          

5) The main character, Natalie, what I felt was, had a very derivative persona. There were no surprises in her arc and she just came off as a predictable one. I know that she was a selfish and a mean lady at the beginning who goes onto become a better person but that's what every character in a rehab facility written as. There was no uniqueness in her that made her interesting.

Also it is the events/incidents that push forward Natalie in the story not her herself making some mistakes/events/incidents that progresses the story. Like, take the part where Harley involuntarily inspects Maria's Diary and tells about it to Natalie. If it weren't there, Natalie wouldn't have known the truth about Malcam ignoring that Maria's apparition warns her about him( no one believes though). My point is that it is the events that drive our main character forward not the opposite.

6) The twist about Judge Specter been also involved in the crime was interesting one. It took me by surprise.  

Well that is it.  

Maybe my opinion matters to you or maybe not. Who knows......      




Thanks a ton for the read and the comments, friend. All very valuable things to consider. I appreciate it.

Posted by: Yuvraj, April 11th, 2020, 11:35pm; Reply: 16
Thank you Dave.

You are very wonderful at your craft. It reflects in your scripts.  
Posted by: eldave1, April 12th, 2020, 10:45am; Reply: 17

Quoted from Yuvraj
Thank you Dave.

You are very wonderful at your craft. It reflects in your scripts.  


How kind. Thank you.
Posted by: eldave1, April 12th, 2020, 11:07am; Reply: 18
Second draft up

Thanks Don.

Posted by: SAC, April 12th, 2020, 3:01pm; Reply: 19
Hey, Dave,

Just saw this now. I’ll get to this soon-ish!
Posted by: eldave1, April 12th, 2020, 4:33pm; Reply: 20

Quoted from SAC
Hey, Dave,

Just saw this now. I’ll get to this soon-ish!


Cool - thanks
Posted by: spesh2k, April 12th, 2020, 4:37pm; Reply: 21
Started reading the new draft -- will give my thoughts possibly later tonight. The notes probably won't be as detailed... I'll focus mainly on the changes.

-- Michael
Posted by: eldave1, April 12th, 2020, 4:40pm; Reply: 22

Quoted from spesh2k
Started reading the new draft -- will give my thoughts possibly later tonight. The notes probably won't be as detailed... I'll focus mainly on the changes.

-- Michael


Thanks, mate.  

If you get a chance, I'd also like you to weigh in on what genre you think this is. I think I mis-categorized as horror - thinking now psych thriller???
Posted by: spesh2k, April 12th, 2020, 4:50pm; Reply: 23
The first draft felt more like a psychological thriller -- it had that tone to it -- but the supernatural element puts it in the horror category by default, as a psychological horror. I know there's exceptions to this rule, like "Ghost Story", which is more of a drama. But the supernatural element wasn't a device used to frighten or scare an audience in that one. Maybe this draft is different -- but I'll definitely give you my thoughts on that after I finish.

-- Michael
Posted by: eldave1, April 12th, 2020, 5:05pm; Reply: 24

Quoted from spesh2k
The first draft felt more like a psychological thriller -- it had that tone to it -- but the supernatural element puts it in the horror category by default, as a psychological horror. I know there's exceptions to this rule, like "Ghost Story", which is more of a drama. But the supernatural element wasn't a device used to frighten or scare an audience in that one. Maybe this draft is different -- but I'll definitely give you my thoughts on that after I finish.

-- Michael


Thanks
Posted by: SAC, April 12th, 2020, 5:27pm; Reply: 25

Quoted from spesh2k
The first draft felt more like a psychological thriller -- it had that tone to it -- but the supernatural element puts it in the horror category by default, as a psychological horror. I know there's exceptions to this rule, like "Ghost Story", which is more of a drama. But the supernatural element wasn't a device used to frighten or scare an audience in that one. Maybe this draft is different -- but I'll definitely give you my thoughts on that after I finish.

-- Michael


Ghost Story, huh? That’s going deep. And way, way back! I believe I saw that on VHS.
Posted by: spesh2k, April 12th, 2020, 5:31pm; Reply: 26
I'm talking about the "Ghost Story" with Casey Affleck from a few years ago.
Posted by: SAC, April 12th, 2020, 5:59pm; Reply: 27

Quoted from spesh2k
I'm talking about the "Ghost Story" with Casey Affleck from a few years ago.


Ah! Gotcha
Posted by: spesh2k, April 12th, 2020, 7:45pm; Reply: 28
All right, David, so I checked out the 2nd draft. I like the changes you made -- this definitely falls into the horror category as a psychological/supernatural horror script. You amped up the scares -- the remote control one was good, which was in the last draft. The face in the window one, which I believe you added in this new draft, was nice.

I also noticed more clues to Dr. Malcam's insanity -- specifically Adena's comment "Be sure to show him your gratitude". So, that was good.

The ghost angle works much better in this draft as we get the ghost stuff starting on page 19. But there are still a few things. You suggest that Natalie's seeing all this MAYBE because of her sobriety -- perhaps the withdrawal has her seeing shit. That's fine. But maybe there should be a history of this, seeing things. But she says it only happens when she's sober.

Also, I do like the newer beginning better, but this is Natalie's story. I really think the story, and her character, would benefit off an opening that includes Natalie's -- I really think the car accident with her mother would be a much better way to start this off. Just the tail-end of it, the moment of impact when it crashes. Or even the aftermath... just seeing a totaled car. Then we see Natalie barely alive inside. She looks to her mother and she's obviously dead, perhaps mangled. Would make for a more frightening visual. And, just a suggestion, to take it a step further and kinda introduce these possible hallucinations earlier, maybe her mother contorts into some creepy way and says something haunting... and maybe Natalie snaps awake. Or she's splashing water onto her face in the courthouse bathroom. I dunno, something along those lines, not exactly like that of course, you know your story better than I do. But it would definitely add that supernatural tone earlier, at least with a creepy visual like that. Not sure if the jumping off the cliff accomplishes that. Even though you intro the supernatural element at page 19 instead of 30, it still feels a little out of the blue. I think it would be better somehow include a haunting visual at the beginning while suggesting that Natalia has a history of delusions.

The whole Maria backstory doesn't need to be, nor should be IMO, the intro. Natalie can ask Harley about this Maria thing. And maybe Harley, who's been there for years, remembers Maria -- perhaps he even found her dead body. Or saw her jump off the cliff -- which can be shown through flashback as he's talking about it. He can also be like, "How do you know about Maria?"

One of the reasons why I think the opening should be the car crash is because that scene where Natalie talks about it feels like there's just so much information crammed into it -- her sister's diary, her sister being molested, the mother not doing anything about it, etc.

Throughout, especially at the beginning, Natalie is always talking about how she doesn't like being touched. So I feel like it should be her who experienced it. I feel like throwing the sister thing in there makes it a bit jumbled when it should be a little simpler. I dunno, maybe Natalie tried killing herself because of all the abuse and her mother is trying to rush her to the hospital (maybe she cut her wrists). And then maybe Natalie is telling her, "Why didn't you do anything?" And that leads to the car crash. I dunno.

Also, I'd like to see Adena play more of a role in this, specifically at the end. She's so loyal to Dr. Malcam, it'd be a nice other obstacle for Natalie to overcome. Perhaps Adena even assists him.

Speaking of Adena, there's an opportunity to show that she's in all of this when Natalie mentions Maria in front of her to Dr. Malcam. Even just having Adena give the doctor a look upon mention of the name. Some sort of acknowledgement.

I'm still not completely sold on the ending with Dr. Malcam going off the cliff, walking towards Maria's ghost. Why didn't Maria's ghost appear before him much earlier? Also, it does kinda feel like an easy way out. I feel like Natalie needs to be the one who ends this, not some ghost. And then maybe the ghost appears afterwards and can now be free, or something like that.

I do like the change you made by bookending with voice overs. Though who is Emma? Did I miss something? Was she in the story earlier? I kinda recall her in the 1st draft but not this newest draft.

Anyway, those were my immediate thoughts after reading. Hope they help!

-- Michael
Posted by: eldave1, April 12th, 2020, 8:27pm; Reply: 29
Thanks again, Michael - you're a champ.


Quoted Text
All right, David, so I checked out the 2nd draft. I like the changes you made -- this definitely falls into the horror category as a psychological/supernatural horror script. You amped up the scares -- the remote control one was good, which was in the last draft. The face in the window one, which I believe you added in this new draft, was nice.


Thanks.


Quoted Text
I also noticed more clues to Dr. Malcam's insanity -- specifically Adena's comment "Be sure to show him your gratitude". So, that was good.


Thanks - next draft I'm going to add a little bit more - thinking about having him have an anger management issue - maybe a scene where Harley fucks something little up and he goes way over the top anger wise in the response - just something to indicate he has a hair trigger lurling beneath the facade.


Quoted Text
The ghost angle works much better in this draft as we get the ghost stuff starting on page 19. But there are still a few things. You suggest that Natalie's seeing all this MAYBE because of her sobriety -- perhaps the withdrawal has her seeing shit. That's fine. But maybe there should be a history of this, seeing things. But she says it only happens when she's sober.


Thanks - trying to find a way to get that first ghost scene to page 15 at a min in next version.

I disagree with the Natalie having to have any past illusions here.  Typically not needed for a standard ghost story and I think Malcam dissuading her that is is real due to part of detox is good enough. All I want is for the reader at this point to be guessing a little bit as to whether these are real or not.


Quoted Text
Also, I do like the newer beginning better, but this is Natalie's story. I really think the story, and her character, would benefit off an opening that includes Natalie's -- I really think the car accident with her mother would be a much better way to start this off. Just the tail-end of it, the moment of impact when it crashes. Or even the aftermath... just seeing a totaled car. Then we see Natalie barely alive inside. She looks to her mother and she's obviously dead,


I like that as an alternative - might work. A little torn. It does much better set up a premise for the Court scene - also would be a good place for a VO. At the same time I like the Maria background here as well as it establishes a premise for the ghost - good thought - but i'm torn. will mull it over.


Quoted Text
And, just a suggestion, to take it a step further and kinda introduce these possible hallucinations earlier, maybe her mother contorts into some creepy way and says something haunting... and maybe Natalie snaps awake. Or she's splashing water onto her face in the courthouse bathroom. I dunno, something along those lines, not exactly like that of course, you know your story better than I do. But it would definitely add that supernatural tone earlier, at least with a creepy visual like that. Not sure if the jumping off the cliff accomplishes that. Even though you intro the supernatural element at page 19 instead of 30, it still feels a little out of the blue. I think it would be better somehow include a haunting visual at the beginning while suggesting that Natalia has a history of delusions.


Not a fan of this. I want her to be normal (other than her addiction of course) when she starts the journey. I do agree the earlier the supernatural stuff can start the better.  Responding here sparked an idea - I think I'll have her arrive first day at night - get taken straight to the cottage - have the first hallucination before she tours the facility etc - that would get me to around apge 10 for the first ghost scene.


Quoted Text
The whole Maria backstory doesn't need to be, nor should be IMO, the intro. Natalie can ask Harley about this Maria thing. And maybe Harley, who's been there for years, remembers Maria -- perhaps he even found her dead body. Or saw her jump off the cliff -- which can be shown through flashback as he's talking about it. He can also be like, "How do you know about Maria?"

One of the reasons why I think the opening should be the car crash is because that scene where Natalie talks about it feels like there's just so much information crammed into it -- her sister's diary, her sister being molested, the mother not doing anything about it, etc.


Yeah, I do like the car crash opening as an alternative - just not the hallucination stuff. Definitely going to play around with it as an alternative to see if I like that. Naturally that would nuke the opening suicide scene.


Quoted Text
Throughout, especially at the beginning, Natalie is always talking about how she doesn't like being touched. So I feel like it should be her who experienced it. I feel like throwing the sister thing in there makes it a bit jumbled when it should be a little simpler. I dunno, maybe Natalie tried killing herself because of all the abuse and her mother is trying to rush her to the hospital (maybe she cut her wrists). And then maybe Natalie is telling her, "Why didn't you do anything?" And that leads to the car crash. I dunno.


Interesting and would definitely work. I do lose a plot element though - Natalie's addiction being party fueled by her guilt of not protecting her sister. Hmmm.  No reason they couldn't have  both been abused by the Step Dad ---- that would work.


Quoted Text
Also, I'd like to see Adena play more of a role in this, specifically at the end. She's so loyal to Dr. Malcam, it'd be a nice other obstacle for Natalie to overcome. Perhaps Adena even assists him.


Not sure - In my mind Adena is in on it but would draw the line on the type of violence experienced at the end,  


Quoted Text
Speaking of Adena, there's an opportunity to show that she's in all of this when Natalie mentions Maria in front of her to Dr. Malcam. Even just having Adena give the doctor a look upon mention of the name. Some sort of acknowledgement.


That was the intent of the scene where Adena goes to see Malcam after finding out Natalie had googled Maria - Adena goes to his office afterwards. I'll take a look at that.


Quoted Text
I'm still not completely sold on the ending with Dr. Malcam going off the cliff, walking towards Maria's ghost. Why didn't Maria's ghost appear before him much earlier? Also, it does kinda feel like an easy way out. I feel like Natalie needs to be the one who ends this, not some ghost. And then maybe the ghost appears afterwards and can now be free, or something like that.


I think I'm okay on the ghost not appearing to Malcam thing - I know there's a slight logic issue but it becomes never ending (e.g., why not appear before Adena, Harley, the other women?. The plot point I was trying to drive home is that Maria is not only helping Natalie, she is also using her as a tool to extract her revenge on Malcam.  

Natalie does end it by pushing him off the cliff. But...I kind of get where you're going by having it unassisted by Maria - hmm. Will mull it over.


Quoted Text
I do like the change you made by bookending with voice overs. Though who is Emma? Did I miss something? Was she in the story earlier? I kinda recall her in the 1st draft but not this newest draft.


Thanks for the VO idea - I think I need to add a midpoint one as well.

Emma I was afraid might not land - Emma was her sisters name - that was the irony - she didn't help her sister Emma but she's going to help this addict Emma.  It may be too many pages between Emmas for folks to remember.


Quoted Text
Anyway, those were my immediate thoughts after reading. Hope they help!

-- Michael


Very much so, Thanks a ton.
Posted by: SAC, April 15th, 2020, 10:21am; Reply: 30
Hi Dave,

Read the first thirty last night.

Was a little confused by your use of I/E. I believe why your using it is to minimize unnecessary slugs, keeping it less cluttered. I understand that, if that was the reason. However, it did sort of stop me in my tracks and I reread the passage again, when they were first driving up to the treatment center. And I’m thinking, you’re showing two shots here - them talking in the car, then the car driving through. Like I said, I got that. Still, I had to stop and read again. Maybe it’s a small nit, but it did cause me to stop.

I like Dr. Malcam. He’s genuinely strange, and the way you described his strange smile early on is very telling of who he is. In fact, it’s the first time I ever got a really good indication of who a character is just by describing his looks. Very good.

Your lead (Natalie? Sorry, forgot her name already - that’s not you, it’s me) is well drawn, but a bit vanilla. What I’m saying is I feel she should need a characterization kind of like Malcam or even the gardener with the face burn. I don’t feel she stands out enough, and I realize she’s an addict and maybe that makes her stand out enough. She’s thin from years of abuse, but then again, as you said, so are all the other women there. Personally, I’d like to see that one trait, or physical characteristic, that separates her from everyone else. Basically, a little more color. Maybe she scratches her temple when she’s nervous. Something along those lines.

Otherwise, it has my interest and I look forward to getting to the rest!

Steve
Posted by: eldave1, April 15th, 2020, 10:29am; Reply: 31

Quoted from SAC
Hi Dave,

Read the first thirty last night.

Was a little confused by your use of I/E. I believe why your using it is to minimize unnecessary slugs, keeping it less cluttered. I understand that, if that was the reason. However, it did sort of stop me in my tracks and I reread the passage again, when they were first driving up to the treatment center. And I’m thinking, you’re showing two shots here - them talking in the car, then the car driving through. Like I said, I got that. Still, I had to stop and read again. Maybe it’s a small nit, but it did cause me to stop.

I like Dr. Malcam. He’s genuinely strange, and the way you described his strange smile early on is very telling of who he is. In fact, it’s the first time I ever got a really good indication of who a character is just by describing his looks. Very good.

Your lead (Natalie? Sorry, forgot her name already - that’s not you, it’s me) is well drawn, but a bit vanilla. What I’m saying is I feel she should need a characterization kind of like Malcam or even the gardener with the face burn. I don’t feel she stands out enough, and I realize she’s an addict and maybe that makes her stand out enough. She’s thin from years of abuse, but then again, as you said, so are all the other women there. Personally, I’d like to see that one trait, or physical characteristic, that separates her from everyone else. Basically, a little more color. Maybe she scratches her temple when she’s nervous. Something along those lines.

Otherwise, it has my interest and I look forward to getting to the rest!

Steve


Thanks, mate - much appreciated
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 16th, 2020, 3:54pm; Reply: 32
Hey, Dave, looks like you've been using your lock-down time wisely.  I just came across this and was intrigued.

Let's see what we have here...

Damn, my keyboard is on the fritz, so review to follow...
Posted by: eldave1, April 16th, 2020, 4:40pm; Reply: 33

Quoted from Dreamscale
Hey, Dave, looks like you've been using your lock-down time wisely.  I just came across this and was intrigued.

Let's see what we have here...

Damn, my keyboard is on the fritz, so review to follow...


cool
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 17th, 2020, 11:08am; Reply: 34
So, my girlfriend, Teri, was cool enough to bring me a nice, brand new keyboard home from work yesterday, so I'm back in business.

I read through page 24 yesterday, but couldn't take any notes.  I will summarize my thoughts so far, and try to take more detailed notes today.

There are a fair number of typos I've seen, so you'll definitely want to go over this again with a slow read.

You're a good writer, so your writing here is good, but IMO, it's long winded.  Not much has happened in 24 pages.  Although there has been alot of dialogue, I don't feel anyone's personality has shown through.  This may have to do with scenes playing too long or just characters that don't matter at all, having too much screen time.  For example - the courtroom scene, which plays out about 3 pages and has lots of dialogue from the judge and lawyers, who we'll most likely never see again.

Slugs - for me, your Slugs need work, and it begins right from the very first one.  By including "SOMEWHERE", you're making it  very, very obvious that this is something we'll understand later, wherein a filmed version, we'd have no clue whatsoever.  I also think you're jumping in and out of Mini Slugs a little awkwardly, and I think you know I literally despise using INT/EXT when there's absolutely no reason to.  Whenever a writer uses INT/EXT, they're just being lazy, completely releasing creative control - IMO, that is.

As I said earlier, I feel like the writing here is long winded, which it is, but also playing into the "long feel" is the very slow pace, which may very well be on purpose.  I personally like slow burn scripts and movies, but for me, so far, I'm having trouble staying committed to the story.

Finally, I don't get much of any horror vibe so far.  I do see several movies I'm familiar with in this setup, but the horror just isn't there at all, for me.

I'm going to post this and start back up at Page 25 and I'll jot down any typos I find, as well as my thoughts as I read along.

Hope this helps.
Posted by: eldave1, April 17th, 2020, 11:36am; Reply: 35

Quoted from Dreamscale
So, my girlfriend, Teri, was cool enough to bring me a nice, brand new keyboard home from work yesterday, so I'm back in business.
Hope this helps.


Nice girlfriend! Hats off to Teri.


Quoted Text
There are a fair number of typos I've seen, so you'll definitely want to go over this again with a slow read.


Thought I had gotten through most of those in the 3rd draft - will triple check again - thanks

You're a good writer, so your writing here is good, but IMO, it's long winded.  Not much has happened in 24 pages.  Although there has been alot of dialogue, I don't feel anyone's personality has shown through.  This may have to do with scenes playing too long or just characters that don't matter at all, having too much screen time.  For example - the courtroom scene, which plays out about 3 pages and has lots of dialogue from the judge and lawyers, who we'll most likely never see again.


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Slugs - for me, your Slugs need work, and it begins right from the very first one.  By including "SOMEWHERE", you're making it  very, very obvious that this is something we'll understand later, wherein a filmed version, we'd have no clue whatsoever.  


The vagueness here is purposeful, I don't want the reader or a viewer to have a clue until later.


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I also think you're jumping in and out of Mini Slugs a little awkwardly, and I think you know I literally despise using INT/EXT when there's absolutely no reason to.  Whenever a writer uses INT/EXT, they're just being lazy, completely releasing creative control - IMO, that is.


I like the use of INT/EXT headers for car scenes. I personally think it makes the read smoother. Understand your point - just not for me.  I do need to clean up the minis on the next draft. Thanks


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As I said earlier, I feel like the writing here is long winded, which it is, but also playing into the "long feel" is the very slow pace, which may very well be on purpose.  I personally like slow burn scripts and movies, but for me, so far, I'm having trouble staying committed to the story.


This is one that is a slow burn - but I  certainly don't want it to the point where a reader loses interest.  I am looking at chopping at least five pages from the first act to get to the inciting incident earlier - so I take your point here.


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Finally, I don't get much of any horror vibe so far.  I do see several movies I'm familiar with in this setup, but the horror just isn't there at all, for me.


Yeah - others have said so as well and I may be writing between genres - I have never written a horror and this was meant as a way to get me into that. I think I miss the true horror mark and ended up with a quasi-one. Eventually, I;ll have to decide the best way to go.


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I'm going to post this and start back up at Page 25 and I'll jot down any typos I find, as well as my thoughts as I read along.

Hope this helps.


Certainly does - thanks again.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 17th, 2020, 12:42pm; Reply: 36
As I go...

Page 25 - The Wrylie - "in unison" is not at all necessary, as the dialogue block itself "ALL THE WOMEN" makes it redundant.  There have been so many Wrylies already.  IMO, very few are really needed and/or effective.

Page 27 - "looks towards" - you've done this before, but IMO, this should be "looks toward".  Neither is "incorrect", but in the states, "toward" is the preferred word.

Page 28 - The INT/EXT here is incorrect.  This entire scene is "seen" from inside the room, so no need for the EXT.  This scene here is also overwritten - you're literally telling us stuff we should understand.

Page 31 - You're using "DUSK" several times in a row in your Slugs.  IMO, "CONTINUOUS" would be better, especially when you transition from EXT to INT, as it's literally happening right after - it's continuous.

Another interesting thing I'm seeing over and over is how you're so blatantly trying not to use "is".  Here, you use "Grace's".  Is it technically wrong?  No, it's not, but you're definitely not gaining anything by doing this, and to me, it starts to look strange, the more I see it.

Page 36 - "moving is hands..." - "moving his hands..."

"Something ain't right here." - Obviously, you know how I feel about asides such as these, and you've been peppering your script with them, but this one really stands out, as it's so obvious that you're telling us something important, in case we missed it.

Page 37 - "Sharon notices that Natalie did quite take this is a joke." - Something is wrong here - I don't get it, as written.

Page 38 - When you use a POV, you have to "RETURN TO SCENE".

Page 40 - "An in an instant," - "And?  Not sure what this is supposed to mean.

"reach the car" - "reaches the car"

Page 46 - Ah!  The return of Judge Specter!  Interesting.

Page 48 - Is the Ghost of Maria the same character as the Ghost of a Young Woman?  If so, there's an issue, as you now have 2 different character names set up for 1 character.

Page 56 - OK, we're half way done here, and I have to comment about the flow and pace - it's very, very slow.  Very little happens...very little happens that's different from day to day.  We're watching very detailed, but dull events take place page after page, and the horror is just not here, for me at least, sorry to say.

"EXT. PACIFIC OCEAN - MALIBU BEACH - DAY" - This isn't right, as we're not in the ocean, we're on the beach.

I need to go run some errands for the weekend.  I'll be back to finish this later today.

Posted by: eldave1, April 17th, 2020, 2:29pm; Reply: 37

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Page 25 - The Wrylie - "in unison" is not at all necessary, as the dialogue block itself "ALL THE WOMEN" makes it redundant.  There have been so many Wrylies already.  IMO, very few are really needed and/or effective.


I'm okay with it as it denotes at the exact same time


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Page 27 - "looks towards" - you've done this before, but IMO, this should be "looks toward".  Neither is "incorrect", but in the states, "toward" is the preferred word.


Either term is correct - you're right - , but after re-looking I think I towards does sound better - thanks


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Page 28 - The INT/EXT here is incorrect.  This entire scene is "seen" from inside the room, so no need for the EXT.  This scene here is also overwritten - you're literally telling us stuff we should understand.


Don't agree here - not entirely seen from the inside. Don't think this 1/2 page is over-written at all.


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Page 31 - You're using "DUSK" several times in a row in your Slugs.  IMO, "CONTINUOUS" would be better, especially when you transition from EXT to INT, as it's literally happening right after - it's continuous.


Like that suggestion


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Another interesting thing I'm seeing over and over is how you're so blatantly trying not to use "is".  Here, you use "Grace's".  Is it technically wrong?  No, it's not, but you're definitely not gaining anything by doing this, and to me, it starts to look strange, the more I see it.


Torn here - I take your point - I think I prefer the absence of the is. Do understand that others don't.


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Page 36 - "moving is hands..." - "moving his hands..."


Thanks

"
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Something ain't right here." - Obviously, you know how I feel about asides such as these, and you've been peppering your script with them, but this one really stands out, as it's so obvious that you're telling us something important, in case we missed it.


Yeah, we disagree - I think it adds tone to the scene. I picked it up from other scripts that I liked.


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Page 37 - "Sharon notices that Natalie did quite take this is a joke." - Something is wrong here - I don't get it, as written.


I'm okay with this - I think it is clear.


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Page 38 - When you use a POV, you have to "RETURN TO SCENE".


Yep - thanks!

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Page 40 - "An in an instant," - "And?  Not sure what this is supposed to mean.


She had a resolute look on her face the sec before - meant to imply it was forced - that might be better - thanks


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"reach the car" - "reaches the car"


thanks


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Page 48 - Is the Ghost of Maria the same character as the Ghost of a Young Woman?  If so, there's an issue, as you now have 2 different character names set up for 1 character.


We did not know it was Maria earlier - that was discovered


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Page 56 - OK, we're half way done here, and I have to comment about the flow and pace - it's very, very slow.  Very little happens...very little happens that's different from day to day.  We're watching very detailed, but dull events take place page after page, and the horror is just not here, for me at least, sorry to say.


No apologies needed - looking for your honest reaction


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"EXT. PACIFIC OCEAN - MALIBU BEACH - DAY" - This isn't right, as we're not in the ocean, we're on the beach.


Correct - thanks


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I need to go run some errands for the weekend.  I'll be back to finish this later today.


Cool -thanks much for your efforts
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 17th, 2020, 4:26pm; Reply: 38
Starting up again...

Page 60 - 4 Wrylies in a row?  These just don't look good...don't read well.  I don't see how they are necessary.

Page 80 - "Harley putting away tools. He fills a sudden chill, rubs his arms for warmth." - You do this alot - Subject followed by a verb ending in "ing".  You omit the "is" to try and get around the sentence being passive, but it doesn't work that way.  Why not just write, "Harley puts away tools"?  Also, "fills" should be "feels".

Page 81 - Here it is again, and really, it's on every page several times.  "Adena providing a warm smile..."

Page 84 - On Page 83, Nat put the journal in her nightstand before Adena came in.  Now, she somehow has it to give Harley, which doesn't make sense.

Page 86 - "She pats the towel against her face as he opens..." - "she"

"BEDROOM" - Even though it's a Mini Slug, you never want to begin with dialogue.

Page 89 - "Harley talks to Natalie without looking at her keeps his face pointed at his work." - missing a comma after "her".

Page 92 - Not sure why all of a sudden, you're using this "BACK IT and BACK AT for these Slugs.  It doesn't matter that these are all quick cuts, no reason to change the Slugs.

Page 93 - "Malcam has one on the screen..." - missing "eye"

Page 94 - OK, ummm...how can I say this?  All of a sudden, Malcam is sounding like one of the James Bond villains, the way he's talking to Harley.  I don't buy it.  I also don't buy that Harley couldn't take care of himself in this situation a little better, or at least put up a fight.

Page 95 - "You have more brains then I ever gave you credit for Harley." - You need a comma before Harley.

Page 97 - "He reaches in the medical bag, retrieves the plastic bag of OXYCODONE PILLS confiscated from Natalie on her first day." - There's absolutely no way anyone would realize the bag was Natalie's, in a filmed version.  Nor would anyone know what the pills were, exactly.

Page 99 - "We coordinating..." Missing "are"

Page 105 - Why the INTERCUT now?  You've had similar scenes going back and forth before, but now you you use INTERCUT?  I don't get why.

Page 106 - "She claws at Malcam’s forearms with trying to claw him with her nails." - Something's way off with this sentence.

Page 108 - "I was lucky enough to get a job at small town hospital." - Missing "a" after "at"

Page 109 - "Natalie reaches her a modest, used sedan. She enters it." - "a" shouldn't be here, but the whole passage is awkwardly phrased.

"SMALL TOWN DOWN ROAD" - Not sure what this means?  Why is "DOWN" part of this?

"Natalie at the wheel as she drives down the main street of small, rural town." - Awkward and missing "a" after "of"

Page 110/111 - You first name Emma Frail Young Woman, then we find out her name is Emma.  Once again, in your writing software, you have an additional character now.  No reason not to name her right away, as Emma.

The end.

OK, so you told a complete story here and wrapped everything up nicely.  There's talent here for sure.  You've included themes throughout and they work pretty well.

This isn't horror, though.  I'd say it's far from horror.  The scene near the end when Malcam goes a little crazy has horror elements for sure, but that's really about it.  The paranormal stuff about Maria's ghost is not horror, nor is it horrific.  No way should this be labeled horror.

Characters - not much character to any of the characters, when you really think about it.  Natalie does go through changes and realizes alot more about herself than she ever probably did, and that's good and impressive, but in terms of character, she's pretty dull.  Everyone is, really.  There's no one here to really like or root for, although I was rooting for Natalie, but I also knew she would survive.  She's just not a memorable character, or one that is likeable, just based on who she is and how she acts and reacts.

Biggest issue for me is the repetitive nature of the story and plot.  It's the same thing over and over and not much happens of interest throughout...until the actual story becomes clear.  There are only several scenes I want to remember, and they're all near the very end.

If I wanted to get picky, I'd also add that it's pretty far out there that Judge Specter and Dr. Malcam would have this "agreement" - there would have to be an awful lot more we're not privy to for this to be believable, but hey, I get it...it's a movie and many times, this is the way it is, so no big deal here.

On that same note, I'm not sure why Dr. Malcam would even want to engage in such activities.  These are all junkies of some kind.  No one was mentioned as being attractive, all are most likely "addict looking" - skinny, bad skin, bad physical shape, etc.  Other junkies may find this attractive, but a Doctor?  I don't think so, but again, I'm being overly picky here, so no big deal.

To me, this is a mystery with some thriller aspects thrown in.  In any mystery, at some point, you need to reveal what's been covered up, and at that time, you have the choice where you want to go with it.  If you want this to be horror, you need to go there much sooner and much harder.  In the finale, I'd have Adena included, and make that scene play out MUCH longer!  Needs more excitement.  needs more action.  needs more horror.  Maria's ghost should probably play a much bigger role in Malcam's (and Adena's) demise, and I'd make that part more horror, too.

I do like your wrap up, showing Nat in her new life and her VO's.  I actually liked her alot more in the last 2 or 3 pages than I did the entire script.

Those are my thoughts and notes.  Hope it helps.
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 17th, 2020, 5:16pm; Reply: 39
Quoted Text
Page 37 - "Sharon notices that Natalie did quite take this is a joke." - Something is wrong here - I don't get it, as written.


I'm okay with this - I think it is clear.

Dave, reread exactly what you wrote - I think "did" should be "didn't"  Know what I'm saying?
Posted by: eldave1, April 17th, 2020, 6:51pm; Reply: 40

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Starting up again...

Page 60 - 4 Wrylies in a row?  These just don't look good...don't read well.  I don't see how they are necessary.


You know me. I''m Wrilie Coyote


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Page 80 - "Harley putting away tools. He fills a sudden chill, rubs his arms for warmth." - You do this alot - Subject followed by a verb ending in "ing".  You omit the "is" to try and get around the sentence being passive, but it doesn't work that way.  Why not just write, "Harley puts away tools"?  


Agree on this one with the is.


Quoted Text

Also, "fills" should be "feels".


Thanks


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Page 81 - Here it is again, and really, it's on every page several times.  "Adena providing a warm smile..."


Agree here - changing to provides


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Page 84 - On Page 83, Nat put the journal in her nightstand before Adena came in.  Now, she somehow has it to give Harley, which doesn't make sense.


Corrected - thanks


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Page 86 - "She pats the towel against her face as he opens..." - "she"


Got it - thanks


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"BEDROOM" - Even though it's a Mini Slug, you never want to begin with dialogue.


Normally agree - not here. I thought the sudden dialogue from Malcam was worth it.


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Page 89 - "Harley talks to Natalie without looking at her keeps his face pointed at his work." - missing a comma after "her".


thanks


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Page 92 - Not sure why all of a sudden, you're using this "BACK IT and BACK AT for these Slugs.  It doesn't matter that these are all quick cuts, no reason to change the Slugs.


I just liked the way it read that way - I understand your technical point.


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Page 93 - "Malcam has one on the screen..." - missing "eye"


Thanks


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Page 94 - OK, ummm...how can I say this?  All of a sudden, Malcam is sounding like one of the James Bond villains, the way he's talking to Harley.  I don't buy it.  I also don't buy that Harley couldn't take care of himself in this situation a little better, or at least put up a fight.



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It is supposed to be a sudden change. He's not the man we thought he was. Others have commented with the same issue you have so I am going to have to believe I did not quite pool that off.  I'm going to add a few scenes earlier to show more of a crack in his facade.

You may have a point on Harley - let me mull that over.  


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Page 95 - "You have more brains then I ever gave you credit for Harley." - You need a comma before Harley.


thanks


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Page 97 - "He reaches in the medical bag, retrieves the plastic bag of OXYCODONE PILLS confiscated from Natalie on her first day." - There's absolutely no way anyone would realize the bag was Natalie's, in a filmed version.  Nor would anyone know what the pills were, exactly.


I'll make it a little green bag :)


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Page 99 - "We coordinating..." Missing "are"


thanks


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Page 105 - Why the INTERCUT now?  You've had similar scenes going back and forth before, but now you you use INTERCUT?  I don't get why.


I like to shake it up?? I'm actually okay with how I handle it in both areas - I think both ways work fine in context of the scenes.


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Page 106 - "She claws at Malcam’s forearms with trying to claw him with her nails." - Something's way off with this sentence.


Yep - thanks


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Page 108 - "I was lucky enough to get a job at small town hospital." - Missing "a" after "at"


thanks


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Page 109 - "Natalie reaches her a modest, used sedan. She enters it." - "a" shouldn't be here, but the whole passage is awkwardly phrased.


Fixed - thanks


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"SMALL TOWN DOWN ROAD" - Not sure what this means?  Why is "DOWN" part of this?


Fixed - thanks

"
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Natalie at the wheel as she drives down the main street of small, rural town." - Awkward and missing "a" after "of"


Agree on both counts - thanks


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Page 110/111 - You first name Emma Frail Young Woman, then we find out her name is Emma.  Once again, in your writing software, you have an additional character now.  No reason not to name her right away, as Emma.


Normally would agree - don't here. The fact that her name is Emma is purposefully confused till she intros herself and is the set up for Natalie's line later - i.e., Emma was the same name of the sister she failed to protect.


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OK, so you told a complete story here and wrapped everything up nicely.  There's talent here for sure.  You've included themes throughout and they work pretty well.


Thanks



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This isn't horror, though.  I'd say it's far from horror.  The scene near the end when Malcam goes a little crazy has horror elements for sure, but that's really about it.  The paranormal stuff about Maria's ghost is not horror, nor is it horrific.  No way should this be labeled horror.


I can appreciate that. The first draft of this thing involved a real demon (no ghost) and it really sucked - it was my effort to write my first horror. Turns out - not quite my thing.  So  agree that this isn't exactly any genre - some drama. some thriller, some crime. some horror.  


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Characters - not much character to any of the characters, when you really think about it.  Natalie does go through changes and realizes alot more about herself than she ever probably did, and that's good and impressive, but in terms of character, she's pretty dull.  Everyone is, really.  There's no one here to really like or root for, although I was rooting for Natalie, but I also knew she would survive.  She's just not a memorable character, or one that is likeable, just based on who she is and how she acts and reacts.


I don't agree here except for as it relates to Natalie. But a I do appreciate your frankness. Anyway, IMO Doctor Malcam is a distinct character. Harley and Grace as well. Even Adena.

Natalie is a bit - hmm, your average addict I guess.  Having had several in my family I know that they are unlikeable (unless they are Arthur - who I loved).  You are not the only one that things her character is blah though. So I certainly will mull this over.


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Biggest issue for me is the repetitive nature of the story and plot.  It's the same thing over and over and not much happens of interest throughout...until the actual story becomes clear.  There are only several scenes I want to remember, and they're all near the very end.


Torn here especially as it relates to the evil of being repetitive. Let me start out by saying it is. It is a series of:

- Natalie working one of the steps (group meeting, journaling, etc.)
- Natalie hears, sees a ghost
- Natalie talks to Malcam who brings her back to reality

Although the the above steps are repetitive, I believe they are also escalating in severity and consequence. And - what story of this type isn't this way.

Quiet Place - they make a sound and monsters appear. Rinse and repeat a dozen times.

Get Out - they show a slice of normal like - or is it?? Rinse and repeat

Any Slasher movie - dumb fuck gets in a dumb situation - gets slashed - rinse and repeat.

So, to me precise, if you were bored by it - I don't think it is the repetition per se, it is the subject matter that is repeating.  That I can appreciate - hope that makes sense.


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If I wanted to get picky, I'd also add that it's pretty far out there that Judge Specter and Dr. Malcam would have this "agreement" - there would have to be an awful lot more we're not privy to for this to be believable, but hey, I get it...it's a movie and many times, this is the way it is, so no big deal here.


Agree


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On that same note, I'm not sure why Dr. Malcam would even want to engage in such activities.  These are all junkies of some kind.  No one was mentioned as being attractive, all are most likely "addict looking" - skinny, bad skin, bad physical shape, etc.  Other junkies may find this attractive, but a Doctor?  I don't think so, but again, I'm being overly picky here, so no big dea
l.

Two things here -(1)  they are there for quite a bit and are getting back into shape (2) this isn't about physical attraction - it's about exercising power.


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To me, this is a mystery with some thriller aspects thrown in.  In any mystery, at some point, you need to reveal what's been covered up, and at that time, you have the choice where you want to go with it.  If you want this to be horror, you need to go there much sooner and much harder.


Agree


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In the finale, I'd have Adena included, and make that scene play out MUCH longer!  Needs more excitement.  needs more action.  needs more horror.  Maria's ghost should probably play a much bigger role in Malcam's (and Adena's) demise, and I'd make that part more horror, too.


Not sure here - food for thought though


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I do like your wrap up, showing Nat in her new life and her VO's.  I actually liked her alot more in the last 2 or 3 pages than I did the entire script.


Thanks


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Those are my thoughts and notes.  Hope it helps.


A ton, mate - much appreciated. Yeoman's work. Don't hesitate to hit me up for a read should you ever need it. Thanks again!
Posted by: eldave1, April 17th, 2020, 6:53pm; Reply: 41

Quoted from Dreamscale
Quoted Text
Page 37 - "Sharon notices that Natalie did quite take this is a joke." - Something is wrong here - I don't get it, as written.


I'm okay with this - I think it is clear.

Dave, reread exactly what you wrote - I think "did" should be "didn't"  Know what I'm saying?


Only took me three times - but I get it now - thanks
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 17th, 2020, 7:51pm; Reply: 42

Quoted from eldave1


Only took me three times - but I get it now - thanks


HA!  My Dad always used to say to my Mom, "Sometimes I look, but I don't see".  I use the same line to Teri...way too often.  LOL!!!
Posted by: eldave1, April 17th, 2020, 8:02pm; Reply: 43

Quoted from Dreamscale


HA!  My Dad always used to say to my Mom, "Sometimes I look, but I don't see".  I use the same line to Teri...way too often.  LOL!!!


We are getting old, mate
Posted by: Dreamscale (Guest), April 17th, 2020, 8:10pm; Reply: 44

Quoted from eldave1


We are getting old, mate


We are, but I've been saying that for many years...all the way back to my first wife (and only wife, actually), when I was in my 20's.  LOL!!!

Posted by: ajr, April 19th, 2020, 8:26am; Reply: 45
Hey Dave,

I started this a while ago and finished it last night, and I wanted to let it wash over me...

So there's no disputing your talent. You are like a master craftsman - we can hand you some material and some tools, and you're going to make a fully functioning piece out of almost anything.

I tried not to read the comments here and I made a few notes as I went so first, here they are:

- why lead with the flashback?
I was confused with the death which seemed out of nowhere. Was it Natalie? Was the SUPER incorrect and it was supposed to say 4 years EARLIER? On the 2nd read it made sense.

- page 14 - would she have been able to get to an addiction facility with hydrocodone in her purse, and in her pant leg?
Honestly, I'm not sure. Would she be allowed these private possessions in a court-remanded stay? Would her purse be searched upon admission?

- page 18 - 19 - first signs of what appears to be a unique personality in Natalie - dovetails with the arrival of Maria's ghost.

- page 21 - Macalm's speech about the homogeniety of the women - I know this is necessary for one of your plot devices (more on that later), however it struck me as odd.

- page 53 - it was interesting that Macalm cured Natalie of her pain; is he a legit healer? Was her ankle really a crutch?  Good work here.

- page 79 - given what Macalm is up to, is it realistic that these women would be allowed to search the internet, regardless of the level of supervision? Macalm has a camera trigger on his file drawer... would he not have a keystroke program installed on the computers?

- How did Macalm know about her mother's accident? I don't think it was ever explained. Was there a file on Natalie? Had she ever shared that with anyone?

- Why is Natalie the only one Maria is interested in? Oh now I see - same cabin, near the cliff. Then begs the question - was that empty for 4 years? No other reports to Macalm of ghosts. Or was Natalie the first one with no family to occupy?

So this recovery center is essentially a rape mill. Macalm is unhinged, Adena is a willing participant, having been raped 15 years earlier, and Harley, though having recovered here and having stayed on for years, is none the wiser. Except it's not rape, because Macalm gets the women to willingly submit at Step Seven. Which is an interesting psychological twist.

Except Grace kills herself, as did Maria 4 years earlier. Did Grace have family? I'm not sure it was mentioned. I know Sharon has family, Maria did not, and Natalie does not. Grace freaks out before leaving, and Sharon does not. So was Sharon raped? Or does she willingly submit?

I'm not sure I buy the supposition that waifish 30ish drug addicts are more prone to rape because they have no family to complain to. That's a tough sell. That's not the only resource for rape victims. It's probably the last resource for rape victims. Or, are you saying that this profile - young addicts with no family, are more prone to the brainwashing of Macalm? If so then I don't understand the "family" distinction. You go to great lengths to set up family as a plot point. If the latter, then the presence of Sharon, and the rest of the girls with family (re; the outdoor BBQ which Natalie is jealous of), does not fit.

Not sure I'm making any sense here... but I'm looking for continuity in what I see as a major plot point. In addition, Specter's participation is never defined. He puts a whole lot on the line to feed Macalm these women. And how would the public defenders not be aware of Specter's proclivity if this has been happening for years?

So I would definitely not categorize this as a ghost story. The ghost is an intrinsic plot element for the woman who eventually brings this ring down. It's part GIRL, INTERRUPTED, part SLEEPERS (the Bacon-DeNiro movie where the kids are abused), with supernatural elements.

Not sure what to say beyond this other than you've weaved a story together with decent plot elements. I would hyper-focus on a method of storytelling that matches what you want to say with this piece, and get the pre-convention out of the way, about wanting to tell a ghost story. In fact, your logline mitigates against this - it sets us up for a ghost story that we are not delivered. Of course Maria is not a delusion, otherwise we wouldn't have a film. You give that away on page 1 when Maria is killed, a necessary device to "turn her into a ghost."

If you can focus on the evils of opiod addiction, and spend more time with Natalie before she's locked up (we learn more about her in the FORWARD when she ministers to the elderly lady as the nurse than we do in all the preceding events) so that we identify with her, and really dig in to Macalm as a male Nurse Ratchett stuck on THE ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU, I think you have a pretty decent cautionary tale to tell. And perhaps Macalm's designs can be MORE sinister? The rape, which is not a rape but a submission, followed by selling the women into slavery. That is a plot device that would dovetail with not having family, because then there would be no one to look for these women...

Sorry for the ramblings and sorry if I've misunderstood anything here, it's early, and the 2nd cup of coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Hope this helps, and good luck with this.

AJR


Posted by: eldave1, April 19th, 2020, 1:56pm; Reply: 46

Quoted from ajr
Hey Dave,

I started this a while ago and finished it last night, and I wanted to let it wash over me...


How funny, - I just finished up my notes on your script and came across this - great minds :)


Quoted Text
So there's no disputing your talent. You are like a master craftsman - we can hand you some material and some tools, and you're going to make a fully functioning piece out of almost anything.


Wow, that's kind of you - thanks.


Quoted Text
- why lead with the flashback?

I was confused with the death which seemed out of nowhere. Was it Natalie? Was the SUPER incorrect and it was supposed to say 4 years EARLIER? On the 2nd read it made sense.


Wanted to have something a bit more riveting in the opening then the Courtroom scene.


Quoted Text
- page 14 - would she have been able to get to an addiction facility with hydrocodone in her purse, and in her pant leg?


Yeah - I'm pretty familiar with this topic having put two sisters through rehab.  They sneak shit in all the time and in every way imaginable.  


Quoted Text
Honestly, I'm not sure. Would she be allowed these private possessions in a court-remanded stay? Would her purse be searched upon admission?


Not sure which draft you read - but in subsequent versions I moved the contraband to the cane.


Quoted Text
- page 21 - Macalm's speech about the homogeniety of the women - I know this is necessary for one of your plot devices (more on that later), however it struck me as odd.


Thanks, I'm actually debating that with myself right now - not sure it's even needed.

-
Quoted Text
page 53 - it was interesting that Macalm cured Natalie of her pain; is he a legit healer? Was her ankle really a crutch?  Good work here.


Thanks - not a healer like a sorcerer - but mind control wise - yes


Quoted Text
- page 79 - given what Macalm is up to, is it realistic that these women would be allowed to search the internet, regardless of the level of supervision? Macalm has a camera trigger on his file drawer... would he not have a keystroke program installed on the computers?


That's a good point - hmm.  I like the keystroke idea here very much.


Quoted Text
- How did Macalm know about her mother's accident? I don't think it was ever explained. Was there a file on Natalie? Had she ever shared that with anyone?


It was on her moral inventory that simultaneously printed in Malcam's office. In the prior version he was actually holding a copy in that meeting - maybe I need to go back to that.


Quoted Text
- Why is Natalie the only one Maria is interested in? Oh now I see - same cabin, near the cliff. Then begs the question - was that empty for 4 years? No other reports to Macalm of ghosts. Or was Natalie the first one with no family to occupy?


Good point. Can I lay down my movie logic trump card :) Hmm. Will mull it over.


Quoted Text
So this recovery center is essentially a rape mill. Macalm is unhinged, Adena is a willing participant, having been raped 15 years earlier, and Harley, though having recovered here and having stayed on for years, is none the wiser. Except it's not rape, because Macalm gets the women to willingly submit at Step Seven. Which is an interesting psychological twist.

Except Grace kills herself, as did Maria 4 years earlier. Did Grace have family? I'm not sure it was mentioned. I know Sharon has family, Maria did not, and Natalie does not. Grace freaks out before leaving, and Sharon does not. So was Sharon raped? Or does she willingly submit?

I'm not sure I buy the supposition that waifish 30ish drug addicts are more prone to rape because they have no family to complain to. That's a tough sell. That's not the only resource for rape victims. It's probably the last resource for rape victims. Or, are you saying that this profile - young addicts with no family, are more prone to the brainwashing of Macalm? If so then I don't understand the "family" distinction. You go to great lengths to set up family as a plot point. If the latter, then the presence of Sharon, and the rest of the girls with family (re; the outdoor BBQ which Natalie is jealous of), does not fit.


What I was trying to convey is that there were selected women Malcam would prey on. One, they had to have no family. The thought being he could more easily assume a father figure/influencer type role (kind of a stockholm syndrome thing) and his risk exposure would be less. So while he just treated most of the women - selected ones he preyed upon.


Quoted Text
Not sure I'm making any sense here... but I'm looking for continuity in what I see as a major plot point. In addition, Specter's participation is never defined. He puts a whole lot on the line to feed Macalm these women. And how would the public defenders not be aware of Specter's proclivity if this has been happening for years?


You are - Specter's role is defined though. He's paid to send women meeting a certain profile there. Not sure the PD's would be aware of this or that it doesn't make sense that they were not.


Quoted Text
So I would definitely not categorize this as a ghost story. The ghost is an intrinsic plot element for the woman who eventually brings this ring down. It's part GIRL, INTERRUPTED, part SLEEPERS (the Bacon-DeNiro movie where the kids are abused), with supernatural elements.


Yeah - I'm really lost as to what to label this -


Quoted Text
Not sure what to say beyond this other than you've weaved a story together with decent plot elements. I would hyper-focus on a method of storytelling that matches what you want to say with this piece, and get the pre-convention out of the way, about wanting to tell a ghost story. In fact, your logline mitigates against this - it sets us up for a ghost story that we are not delivered. Of course Maria is not a delusion, otherwise we wouldn't have a film. You give that away on page 1 when Maria is killed, a necessary device to "turn her into a ghost."

If you can focus on the evils of opiod addiction, and spend more time with Natalie before she's locked up (we learn more about her in the FORWARD when she ministers to the elderly lady as the nurse than we do in all the preceding events) so that we identify with her, and really dig in to Macalm as a male Nurse Ratchett stuck on THE ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU, I think you have a pretty decent cautionary tale to tell. And perhaps Macalm's designs can be MORE sinister? The rape, which is not a rape but a submission, followed by selling the women into slavery. That is a plot device that would dovetail with not having family, because then there would be no one to look for these women...


Fair points here - others have had similar views. I am going to try a straight drama - no ghost version - of this as well.


Quoted Text
Sorry for the ramblings and sorry if I've misunderstood anything here, it's early, and the 2nd cup of coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Hope this helps, and good luck with this.

AJR


All helpful stuff, Anthony - much appreciated
Posted by: ajr, April 19th, 2020, 2:08pm; Reply: 47
My pleasure, Dave. And sorry to hear that you had to go through that with your sisters. That does answer a question for me, though, that I usually ask everyone who sits down to type out a feature, which is - why did you write this?

For me, that's what you have to zero in on, because it comes from a place of raw honesty, and it's what you know. I don't know that you have to fully exclude Maria as a ghost. Maybe the idea here is to spend a little more time with Natalie up front, set her up as a heroine worth rooting for, and somehow have her find out about Maria's death 4 years earlier. Maybe even have flashes of an apparition, which still serves your narrative - is Natalie crazy, or does this woman exist, and was she in a sense murdered at this facilty? That preserves the alliance between Natalie and Harley, as they bond to discover more about Maria, which I thought was worthwhile.

Best of luck with this, I hope you turn it into a winner -

AJR
Posted by: eldave1, April 19th, 2020, 3:41pm; Reply: 48

Quoted from ajr
My pleasure, Dave. And sorry to hear that you had to go through that with your sisters. That does answer a question for me, though, that I usually ask everyone who sits down to type out a feature, which is - why did you write this?

For me, that's what you have to zero in on, because it comes from a place of raw honesty, and it's what you know. I don't know that you have to fully exclude Maria as a ghost. Maybe the idea here is to spend a little more time with Natalie up front, set her up as a heroine worth rooting for, and somehow have her find out about Maria's death 4 years earlier. Maybe even have flashes of an apparition, which still serves your narrative - is Natalie crazy, or does this woman exist, and was she in a sense murdered at this facilty? That preserves the alliance between Natalie and Harley, as they bond to discover more about Maria, which I thought was worthwhile.

Best of luck with this, I hope you turn it into a winner -

AJR


A lot of food for thought there - thanks, mate
Posted by: SAC, April 21st, 2020, 8:25pm; Reply: 49
Hey Dave,

Didn't read comments so I might repeat stuff.

I took a few random notes as I read early on so I'll start with those.

The interrogation after Grace died was a big missed opportunity for tension, especially with Adena watching.

Natalie's self loathing was powerful. I hate myself and I hate you are very short sentences, but the came across very strong. It hit home in regards to Natalie's character.

I love the "step interludes" in blue. Well placed.

In spite of all the weirdness going on around her, Natalie does seem to be improving.

Page63/64 - Maria's ghost coming thru the tv and Natalie's reaction. Both seem a little awkward here. One, Maria coming thru the tv doesn't seem to be the way she would go, not to mention it's very cliche.

And Natalie's reaction seems a little over the top. At this point I can see Natalie building some sort of strange kinship with Maria as opposed to being terrified.

If you do continue to go this way, I would expect Maria's appearance to be much more frightening and unnerving than just an appearance on the tube. This time it caused Natalie to pack her stuff and try and escape, so the initial scare should be worthy of that kind of reaction.

Ok, those were my random notes from a few days ago.

I actually did read one of your responses to a post, and you said you were tinkering with the idea of leaving the ghost out of it entirely. Not for nothing, I was thinking the same thing. You have a drama/psychological thriller here. The ghost aspect seems a little out of place and I don't think it works as well as you want it to.

I do like the set up, and I don't mind slow burn. As long as there is a really good payoff. I think you have a decent payoff, but not a great one.

My biggest issue is Malcam. I just don't buy that the reason he's doing all this is because he wants to get laid.

Nurse Ratched was a great antagonist, although she had no rhyme or reason to be as nasty as she was. Like the Joker, she worked as a villain just because she was drawn so well. Here, you give a great set up of Malcam, but you don't follow through on it. He has no back story, no past for Natalie to uncover. Maybe he is the way he is because something from his past made him that way. I don't know.

Just me, but I would go way over the top with Malcam. He comes to a gruesome fate, give him a reason to deserve it other than the fact he was a weird horn dog who rapes women. Don't get me wrong, rape is pretty damn bad, but you know, we wanna entertain here.

I don't think you put Adena to good use as Malcam's sidekick. She could be a lot meaner, too. A lot more sick and twisted, if that's the direction you want to go in.

I think Harley's demise was too easy. He was a bad ass Marine. I'd like to see him doing some bad ass Marine stuff to Malcam before he bites the dust.

That aside, I like your epilogue, so to speak, as we see Natalie getting on with her life. It's a nice closing that leaves us with some hope for Natalie.

Overall, I enjoyed it and it was a good read, but it needs more punch and character development, imo.

Steve
Posted by: eldave1, April 22nd, 2020, 10:53am; Reply: 50

Quoted from SAC
Hey Dave,

Didn't read comments so I might repeat stuff.

I took a few random notes as I read early on so I'll start with those.

Steve


First - thanks for the read and the comments - much appreciated, Steve.


Quoted Text
The interrogation after Grace died was a big missed opportunity for tension, especially with Adena watching.


I like that note - yes, that has a lot of potential in it, Thanks.


Quoted Text
Natalie's self loathing was powerful. I hate myself and I hate you are very short sentences, but the came across very strong. It hit home in regards to Natalie's character.


Thanks


Quoted Text
I love the "step interludes" in blue. Well placed.


Was wondering how that was going to come across - glad it worked for you


Quoted Text
Page63/64 - Maria's ghost coming thru the tv and Natalie's reaction. Both seem a little awkward here. One, Maria coming thru the tv doesn't seem to be the way she would go, not to mention it's very cliche.


In terms of cliche - yeah, I get that - but not sure if all ghost scenes are not cliche to some extent. I'll mull that over.


Quoted Text
And Natalie's reaction seems a little over the top. At this point I can see Natalie building some sort of strange kinship with Maria as opposed to being terrified.


Disagree here - I like the attempted escape


Quoted Text
If you do continue to go this way, I would expect Maria's appearance to be much more frightening and unnerving than just an appearance on the tube. This time it caused Natalie to pack her stuff and try and escape, so the initial scare should be worthy of that kind of reaction.


Got it


Quoted Text
I actually did read one of your responses to a post, and you said you were tinkering with the idea of leaving the ghost out of it entirely. Not for nothing, I was thinking the same thing. You have a drama/psychological thriller here. The ghost aspect seems a little out of place and I don't think it works as well as you want it to.


Definitely going to right a no-ghost version of this - I think I can still have Natalie suffering some delusions and I the attempt at horror was an exercise by me to try to explore a genre I have not written in before - my strength is straight drama/thriller and that is I think the best home for this ultimately.


Quoted Text
I do like the set up, and I don't mind slow burn. As long as there is a really good payoff. I think you have a decent payoff, but not a great one.

My biggest issue is Malcam. I just don't buy that the reason he's doing all this is because he wants to get laid.


You among several others have that issue - I tried to convey that this is really more of an obsession with power - but I don't think it landed.  I have a very drafty version where Malcam is doing this to experiment with his own concoctions of addiction recovery drugs and he is using the ladies as a test lab. I am going to explore that route.


Quoted Text
Nurse Ratched was a great antagonist, although she had no rhyme or reason to be as nasty as she was. Like the Joker, she worked as a villain just because she was drawn so well. Here, you give a great set up of Malcam, but you don't follow through on it. He has no back story, no past for Natalie to uncover. Maybe he is the way he is because something from his past made him that way. I don't know.


Not sure I agree here - Nurse R had no backstory by way of example.


Quoted Text
Just me, but I would go way over the top with Malcam. He comes to a gruesome fate, give him a reason to deserve it other than the fact he was a weird horn dog who rapes women. Don't get me wrong, rape is pretty damn bad, but you know, we wanna entertain here.


Got it


Quoted Text
I don't think you put Adena to good use as Malcam's sidekick. She could be a lot meaner, too. A lot more sick and twisted, if that's the direction you want to go in.


No, I want her like a cult follower - hope that makes sense


Quoted Text
I think Harley's demise was too easy. He was a bad ass Marine. I'd like to see him doing some bad ass Marine stuff to Malcam before he bites the dust.


SOmeone else has mentioned that as well - I'll take another look


Quoted Text
That aside, I like your epilogue, so to speak, as we see Natalie getting on with her life. It's a nice closing that leaves us with some hope for Natalie.


Thanks


Quoted Text
Overall, I enjoyed it and it was a good read, but it needs more punch and character development, imo.

Steve


Thanks, Steve - greatly appreciate you taking the time

Posted by: khamanna, April 22nd, 2020, 12:16pm; Reply: 51
Hi Dave,

Just finished reading it, wasn't a task. As usual whatever you post is a breazy and captivating read. I didn't take notes but will give you my overall impression and few thoughts.
I wasn't so curious to see what happens to Natalie at the beginning. Not untill her story started to unveil and it happened only during the sessions. So, that was much later in the story.

At the beginning you focus on the judge. I thought he was an interesting character. Later you connect it - he sends the victims to Malcam. I thought you'll tell us why since you started getting into it. But I understand its not important to the story.
so, about that, I think you could cut a little of judge at the beginning, since he's not that imortant. And still give us his motives behind providing Malcam with those women.

At the beginning I'd want to learn little more about Natalie. Something to get me going and wanting to follow her story more closely. A little bit of her story.

I really really liked her story here and the way it unveiled. At first she regrets the car accident and thinks her mother's death is her fault. Then it's her sister - this is genious. And I really liked the group settings.
Maybe you could show her at another rehab and how it never helps. Maybe some of the story could be unveiled there. Thinking of the way it started (minus the very first scene) - court is expensive to produce. Other than the court scene it's extremely low budget. Maybe you could strive to keep it extremely low budget thriller.

The very first scene for me is not fitting here. That might be just me though. It has a victorian feel to it which is not fitting with the rest of the script.

About Maria. I kind of resented her as a ghost from the very beginning. Then I started thinking it was Malcam playing a trick on Natalie. I wish it was that. Otherwise it's just a help out of nowhere. The fact she got Natalie her journal doesn't agree with me also. Then there's another journal, Graces. I'm thinking too many journals.

So, Harley's help is also way too sudden. I'd like to see more of a backstory here. Maybe he was in love with Grace. Or Maria. Something more.

And lastly I wish there was no sexual surrender and Malcam was never lusting these women. Maybe he wants them for something bigger. His helpers. I wish he was completely and utterly insane. He's kind of freeing women - in his head. Or something. Anything more sophisticated than sexual surrender.

It had ups and downs. I really liked the part where he healed her.

The googling Maria Bennett part was hard to buy into btw. Would they let them google at all...

The part where Natalie wanted to escape because she saw the ghost again was hard to believe to. She's kind of taking off. Also, the name made me think it's the ghost of Saint Maria. I wish it was a different name at least.

I also wish there was more of a friendship between Natalie and other women. They don't confide in each other at all otherwise and then Grace suddenly warns Natalie to stay on her guard. And Grace was dismissed, I wonder how that happened. Is sexual satisfaction once all he wants?

I also wish there was more struggle from Grace. I mean more proactive struggle.

I also missed Adena at the end. She should be helping Malcam I'd think.

Sorry for not taking detailed notes.
Posted by: eldave1, April 22nd, 2020, 1:08pm; Reply: 52

Quoted from khamanna
Hi Dave,

Just finished reading it, wasn't a task. As usual whatever you post is a breazy and captivating read. I didn't take notes but will give you my overall impression and few thoughts.
I wasn't so curious to see what happens to Natalie at the beginning. Not untill her story started to unveil and it happened only during the sessions. So, that was much later in the story.


Thanks so much for reading and your comments. Much appreciated.


Quoted Text
At the beginning you focus on the judge. I thought he was an interesting character. Later you connect it - he sends the victims to Malcam. I thought you'll tell us why since you started getting into it. But I understand its not important to the story. so, about that, I think you could cut a little of judge at the beginning, since he's not that imortant. And still give us his motives behind providing Malcam with those women.


Yes - I agree here and am probably getting rid of him as a plot driver in the next draft. I think the court scene can be whittled down to a page.


Quoted Text
At the beginning I'd want to learn little more about Natalie. Something to get me going and wanting to follow her story more closely. A little bit of her story.


Others have also commented that they wanted to see more of an arc. Always torn on these - i.e., how much time does someone spend on the backstory in the beginning vs. getting the story started. A hard balance to strike.


Quoted Text
I really really liked her story here and the way it unveiled. At first she regrets the car accident and thinks her mother's death is her fault. Then it's her sister - this is genious. And I really liked the group settings.


Thanks.


Quoted Text
Maybe you could show her at another rehab and how it never helps. Maybe some of the story could be unveiled there. Thinking of the way it started (minus the very first scene) - court is expensive to produce. Other than the court scene it's extremely low budget. Maybe you could strive to keep it extremely low budget thriller.


Not sure about that in terms of showing prior rehab failures - I do think it makes sense - a lot of sense actually - to have more scenes where she is talking to her current rehab sisters about her failed attempts in the past - now that you mentioned it - that is really missing - thanks.


Quoted Text
The very first scene for me is not fitting here. That might be just me though. It has a victorian feel to it which is not fitting with the rest of the script.


I like it - I think it gives folks to keep in the back of their mind through the first act.


Quoted Text
About Maria. I kind of resented her as a ghost from the very beginning. Then I started thinking it was Malcam playing a trick on Natalie. I wish it was that. Otherwise it's just a help out of nowhere. The fact she got Natalie her journal doesn't agree with me also. Then there's another journal, Graces. I'm thinking too many journals.


Hmm. In terms of the journals - that is pretty standard fare for all folks in rehab centers.  Maria's motivation was supposed to be less about helping Natalie and more about seeking justice/revenge for her demise.  Hmm.  Maybe he haunts Malcam??? Spitballing here.


Quoted Text
So, Harley's help is also way too sudden. I'd like to see more of a backstory her. Maybe he was in love with Grace. Or Maria. Something more.


I don't know - The point was it was sudden because of the mysterious journal drop in the maintenance building. ie.., I had him purposefully reluctant.


Quoted Text
And lastly I wish there was no sexual surrender and Malcam was never lusting these women. Maybe he wants them for something bigger. His helpers. I wish he was completely and utterly insane. He's kind of freeing women - in his head. Or something. Anything more sophisticated than sexual surrender.


Point taken - am working on alternative motives (Steve - above had a similar note)


Quoted Text
The googling Maria Bennett part was hard to buy into btw. Would they let them google at all...


Typically they do -  I'm pretty familiar with the protocols here - hat set up is not unusual.


Quoted Text
The part where Natalie wanted to escape because she saw the ghost again was hard to believe to. She's kind of taking off. Also, the name made me think it's the ghost of Saint Maria. I wish it was a different name at least.


Noted


Quoted Text
I also wish there was more of a friendship between Natalie and other women. They don't confide in each other at all otherwise and then Grace suddenly warns Natalie to stay on her guard. And Grace was dismissed, I wonder how that happened. Is sexual satisfaction once all he wants?


See above - I think I can get there by using your idea regarding talking about past rehab experiences more


Quoted Text
I also wish there was more struggle from Grace. I mean more proactive struggle.


Grace is purposefully weak minded - I could see getting rid of her - but not really flipping her personality wise


Quoted Text
I also missed Adena at the end. She should be helping Malcam I'd think.


Several folks agree with you here


Quoted Text
Sorry for not taking detailed notes.


These were great, Kham - much appreciated.
Posted by: khamanna, April 22nd, 2020, 1:22pm; Reply: 53
My absolute pleasure, Dave!
Posted by: SAC, April 22nd, 2020, 4:27pm; Reply: 54

Quoted from eldave1

In terms of cliche - yeah, I get that - but not sure if all ghost scenes are not cliche to some extent. I'll mull that over.

Your job to make it not cliche, right!  :D



Not sure I agree here - Nurse R had no backstory by way of example.

Well, that’s what I meant. She was such a great character. Malcam needs to be that way too. Currently he’s reading a little thin. Beef him up.




No, I want her like a cult follower - hope that makes sense

yeah, that makes sense. Just feel she could propel Malcam’s ideals to a new, and sinister, level.




Thanks, Steve - greatly appreciate you taking the time.


My pleasure, Dave!

Posted by: Yuvraj, May 18th, 2020, 6:55am; Reply: 55
Hello, Dave,

Read the latest draft.

Man I gotta say this was an engrossing read. Well-written as well.

Handling the same story in a different way feels a lot different in a sense.

Some observations:

1) The same problem I faced before, I didn't cared for Harley much. No backstory for us to empathize for him.

2) One more thing I noticed was the relationship between Natalie and other women. It was not less but at the same time not more for me to suffice.

3) Again, Adena felt just like a prop. She's just there to die at the end.

4) I'll again emphasize on Malcolm. He's an odd criminal. Lots of patience.

5) I certainly felt a bit different about Natalie this time. I felt a bit attached to her.

6) Glad that the twist related with the Judge is there.

7) I'll say this again, it is the events/incidents that push forward Natalie in the story not her herself making some mistakes/events/incidents that progresses the story. It's a bit of a let down.

But overall, the writing was as lucid as ever.

Hopefully, these things make any sense. If they do it's great.

Good luck.

( If you are willing, then I do like to have a few suggestions (from your own experience) about writing a feature. Since I'm amidst of writing one, my very first, 9 pages (not great, I know, lol). Hope to hear from you.)
Posted by: eldave1, May 18th, 2020, 11:50am; Reply: 56

Quoted from Yuvraj
Hello, Dave,

Read the latest draft.

Man I gotta say this was an engrossing read. Well-written as well.

Handling the same story in a different way feels a lot different in a sense.

Some observations:

1) The same problem I faced before, I didn't cared for Harley much. No backstory for us to empathize for him.

2) One more thing I noticed was the relationship between Natalie and other women. It was not less but at the same time not more for me to suffice.

3) Again, Adena felt just like a prop. She's just there to die at the end.

4) I'll again emphasize on Malcolm. He's an odd criminal. Lots of patience.

5) I certainly felt a bit different about Natalie this time. I felt a bit attached to her.

6) Glad that the twist related with the Judge is there.

7) I'll say this again, it is the events/incidents that push forward Natalie in the story not her herself making some mistakes/events/incidents that progresses the story. It's a bit of a let down.

But overall, the writing was as lucid as ever.

Hopefully, these things make any sense. If they do it's great.

Good luck.

( If you are willing, then I do like to have a few suggestions (from your own experience) about writing a feature. Since I'm amidst of writing one, my very first, 9 pages (not great, I know, lol). Hope to hear from you.)


Thanks for you feedback and read, mate - truly appreciated.

Go ahead and PM me with the questions you have regarding writing a feature. Be glad to help.
Posted by: Yuvraj, May 18th, 2020, 12:50pm; Reply: 57

Quoted from eldave1
Thanks for your feedback and read, mate - truly appreciated.


No problem.


Quoted from eldave1
Go ahead and PM me with the questions you have regarding writing a feature. Be glad to help.


I know it's too much to ask, but will it be OK if I gmail you the story outline and (just started) script? Then you can suggest me the steps to follow.

If it is OK with you, kindly mention the gmail ID of yours.    
Posted by: eldave1, May 18th, 2020, 1:03pm; Reply: 58
Yep.

I will PM you my email address.
Posted by: Yuvraj, May 18th, 2020, 1:06pm; Reply: 59

Quoted from eldave1
Yep.

I will PM you my email address.


thank you.
Posted by: Kirsten, June 17th, 2020, 8:15am; Reply: 60
Hi Dave,

I'm still working on my thoughts on this but here are some errors I spotted.

Pg 5 fullstop after grounds.
Pg 7. Take most OF your meals.
Pg 18. Space between…. and  points
Pg 37. Didn’t quite take this AS a joke.
Pf 43. Slumps down IN her chair. Not IS her chair.
Pg 67. Space between Adena  grabs.
Pg 79. transcendental Meditation.. lower case m.
Pg 82. Wasn’t going to be the last. Not wouldn’t.
Pg84. Hunting knife, not night.
Pg 92. Snatches them out OF the air.
Pg 94. KeepS his eyes locked
Posted by: eldave1, June 17th, 2020, 10:01am; Reply: 61

Quoted from Kirsten
Hi Dave,

I'm still working on my thoughts on this but here are some errors I spotted.

Pg 5 fullstop after grounds.
Pg 7. Take most OF your meals.
Pg 18. Space between…. and  points
Pg 37. Didn’t quite take this AS a joke.
Pf 43. Slumps down IN her chair. Not IS her chair.
Pg 67. Space between Adena  grabs.
Pg 79. transcendental Meditation.. lower case m.
Pg 82. Wasn’t going to be the last. Not wouldn’t.
Pg84. Hunting knife, not night.
Pg 92. Snatches them out OF the air.
Pg 94. KeepS his eyes locked


Thanks much, Kirsten - appreciated
Posted by: Kirsten, June 27th, 2020, 2:05pm; Reply: 62
Okay Dave,

Sorry this took a while.. This is my first feature critique, so it maybe bad...:)

A lot of good things have been pointed out already. So just take what makes sense and disregard the rest.

The writing was great and it was an easy read, nice job!

I agree with you about getting rid of the ghost. I personally think it would work better as a psychological/thriller. It issues seem to be the wrong genre and the somewhat passive protagonist and the slightly 'cartoony/bondy villianous' antagonist. The pacing and writing and scene changes are all great...

I found this the other day and it spoke to me, so maybe this will help if you do go the horror route.....https://storygrid.com/secrets-of-the-horror-genre/

You have some intense drama in here in regards to Natalie's therapy with the Doc and the depth of her issues. The therapy sessions are great! I even learned a thing or too. Her admitting to her true guilt was powerful.
Question…. Is it implied that Natalie was sexually abused as well? Her not liking being touched, desperately trying to get out of the cavity search?  

I agree that Nat's character doesn't drive the story enough.
She is battling her inner demons in therapy, but there's not enough of a battle between her and the Doc. She becomes Nancy Drew, which is fine if it's a mystery. The Doc needs to throw more crap at her that's based on his insanity and she needs to keep making stupid choices once the crap is thrown, based around her flaw. Then hopefully she makes the right ones and saves herself from him. It just comes across that she is learning her lesson through therapy and not predominantly with the conflict/battle with the insane Doc..

She/we find out through the journal that he is a rapist..... for me this big revelation comes across as too passive. Maybe she needs to witness this with another girl, horrible as it sounds, instead of us and her being told through a journal???

I did find it odd that Natalie is a nurse, yet she has trouble with strangers? Is this because she has become fearful of people due to her drug addiction? Could she make a point somewhere in the story where she is upset that her drug addiction has made her go into herself, turning her into a fearful and mistrusting person?

"ADENA
There are exceptions of
course...It’s
for your protection.

NATALIE
From what?

A CELL PHONE ALERT is heard. Adena removes a smartphone from
her robe pocket - eyes the screen.

ADENA
Doctor Malcam is available now."

I liked what you did here.... subtle way of letting us know she needs protection from the Doc....:).

Anyways, have you decided yet if you will drop the ghost??

Looking forward to the next installment... :)

Cheers Kirsten




Posted by: eldave1, June 27th, 2020, 5:06pm; Reply: 63
Thanks much for the read. Kirsten - truly appreciated.

I found the link you shared very interesting. Thanks.


Quoted Text
Question…. Is it implied that Natalie was sexually abused as well? Her not liking being touched, desperately trying to get out of the cavity search?  


Yes - exactly. In earlier drafts, I had this topic in one of the counseling sessions - sacrificed at the altar of page count - I think I need to bring it back.

Thanks again - a lot of good notes to digest.
Posted by: Kirsten, June 28th, 2020, 6:05pm; Reply: 64

Quoted from eldave1
Thanks much for the read. Kirsten - truly appreciated.

I found the link you shared very interesting. Thanks.



Yes - exactly. In earlier drafts, I had this topic in one of the counseling sessions - sacrificed at the altar of page count - I think I need to bring it back.

Thanks again - a lot of good notes to digest.


Posted by: Kirsten, June 28th, 2020, 6:10pm; Reply: 65
Well there was my attempt at doing the quote thing... dang it.....lol :) :)

Anyways you are welcome Dave, and yes I think it would be powerful to get her to admit to her molestation somewhere later, something the insane Doc does to make her blurt it out.
Posted by: eldave1, June 28th, 2020, 7:19pm; Reply: 66

Quoted from Kirsten
Well there was my attempt at doing the quote thing... dang it.....lol :) :)

Anyways you are welcome Dave, and yes I think it would be powerful to get her to admit to her molestation somewhere later, something the insane Doc does to make her blurt it out.


You almost got the quote thing right - you just did to type afterward :)

Posted by: Kirsten, June 30th, 2020, 7:01pm; Reply: 67
Yeah, I think I've figured out what I'm doing wrong... :)
Posted by: eldave1, June 30th, 2020, 7:06pm; Reply: 68

Quoted from Kirsten
Yeah, I think I've figured out what I'm doing wrong... :)


Nice!
Posted by: spesh2k, December 11th, 2020, 1:53pm; Reply: 69
Hey Dave, nice to see this in the Amateur offerings on Script Shadow -- best of luck getting to the semi final round!

-- Michael
Posted by: eldave1, December 11th, 2020, 3:55pm; Reply: 70

Quoted from spesh2k
Hey Dave, nice to see this in the Amateur offerings on Script Shadow -- best of luck getting to the semi final round!

-- Michael


Thanks. Michael - but alas - it does not seem to be getting any traction - okay with that as I know it still needs work (in fact, working on a redraft now).

I had Nun The Wiser in but had to pull it as I signed a shopping agreement for it and didn't want the conflict.

The nice thing is that there are two other writers that are in there (one this week and one that made it right off with a dramedy) that I had given detailed notes on a few months back - so it;s kind of cool to see them progress.

Rooting for Honey Mustard - I actually think this is in Carson's wheelhouse.

Posted by: spesh2k, December 11th, 2020, 5:52pm; Reply: 71

Quoted from eldave1


Thanks. Michael - but alas - it does not seem to be getting any traction - okay with that as I know it still needs work (in fact, working on a redraft now).

I had Nun The Wiser in but had to pull it as I signed a shopping agreement for it and didn't want the conflict.

The nice thing is that there are two other writers that are in there (one this week and one that made it right off with a dramedy) that I had given detailed notes on a few months back - so it;s kind of cool to see them progress.

Rooting for Honey Mustard - I actually think this is in Carson's wheelhouse.



I'm sure it will get some traction, still has the whole weekend. Cool to see Brett on there, too, this week, I know he's SS alumn.

Congrats on Nun the Wiser! That one's a standout for sure! Good road trip flick!

We'll see about Honey Mustard, I think he'd definitely be on board for the first 60/70 pages, not sure how he'll feel about the ending. We'll see! Either way, I'm gonna try my damnedest to get that one made eventually.

Congrats again, man!

-- Michael
Posted by: eldave1, December 11th, 2020, 5:57pm; Reply: 72

Quoted from spesh2k


I'm sure it will get some traction, still has the whole weekend. Cool to see Brett on there, too, this week, I know he's SS alumn.

Congrats on Nun the Wiser! That one's a standout for sure! Good road trip flick!

We'll see about Honey Mustard, I think he'd definitely be on board for the first 60/70 pages, not sure how he'll feel about the ending. We'll see! Either way, I'm gonna try my damnedest to get that one made eventually.

Congrats again, man!

-- Michael


Thanks,  dude
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