Kind of sums it up for me.

I love this guy! He's awesome.  ;D;D;D

I remember when, not long ago, Oscars was an event. Something your marked on your calendar. Even before I had this crazy notion to be a screenwriter, I never missed the Oscars. If I was working, I rushed home. I’d order a pizza.

For me, the tide turned when they stopped having hosts. Trying to cut back on time cause it ran too long. What??? Fuck, I wanted it to run long! I didn’t want it to end.

Steve Martin. Billy Crystal. Johnny Carson. They were all regular hosts, and they were great. It was like a big roast. Hollywood laughing at the expense of Hollywood, and no one was left out.

Then the music started. The speeches got cut short. Warren Beatty fucked up the Best Picture. Then everyone got political, stood on their soap boxes for their particular causes. Yawn. Who cares anyway about all that shit?

Start by bringing back a tremendous host next year. Start there. And don’t take everything so goddamn seriously.

I don't think the dude could have been more wrong.  

Interests change - Look, beauty pageants used to be all the rage not too long ago - now, no one gives a shit. We all got fatigued with it. MMA has replaced boxing. Old people watch awards shows - young people don't care - they have smartphones to tend to.

THis is just a dude pushing his own political agenda

I've always been interested in the nominations and who won, never cared about the show itself, probably a timezone thing ;-)

Though TBF I don't watch the BAFTA's either.

The Oscars used to be big for me, but I'm also old enough to remember when going to the movies was sort of epic, even if in Sweden. The theaters were bigger and often grand. Then they became smaller in order to make it possible to show more films, which was good I guess too. Thinking back now, some of the screens in those multi-plexes were just a hair bigger than our TVs at home now. It seems to me the movies themselves were bigger too. They did carry you away for a couple of hours. Took you too magical places. Those films could only be made by big studios. Then the computers entered the picture and CGI made things cool, but cheap at the same time. Also, all of a sudden, anyone could buy a decent camera and do all their own editing and voila, produce/direct their own movie. At the same time, writers from all over the world were able to learn how to write screenplays and reach studios. Add streaming services like Netflix and Amazon and now there's a glut of good stuff to watch. There's so much content out there, it's impossible to keep up. Result? There are no real stars anymore. Actors can have the lead in a movie or series, but most people still won't recognize their name or face. Too much of a good thing? End result, no one cares about the Oscars. I don't know, but I suddenly have an urge to go see a movie in a theater. I wonder if there's something really epic playing. Probably not...

Hope you find something good to see Pia!

Theatres still not open in the UK ;-(

Having to make do with my massive TV to watch Nomadland on ;-)

Used to love the Oscars. Big event in our house with popcorn and betting.
Covid wrecked this last one.
It looked like it was held in a shopping food-court.

Anthony H. couldn't even be bothered stayng up and Zooming it in for his best actor gong, which was a definite anti-climax.

Our cinemas are open, but the offerings are a bit Blah.

P.S. Nice to see you Andrew.  ;)

Quoted from eldave1 I don't think the dude could have been more wrong.   Interests change - Look, beauty pageants used to be all the rage not too long ago - now, no one gives a shit. We all got fatigued with it. MMA has replaced boxing. Old people watch awards shows - young people don't care - they have smartphones to tend to. THis is just a dude pushing his own political agenda

Agree. This guy's been posted a few times here and every video is just another riff on the exact same complaint.

I never liked or watched the Oscars, though, so who knows. I'd definitely believe that they're getting worse. The movies sure are.

Quoted from eldave1 I don't think the dude could have been more wrong.   Interests change - Look, beauty pageants used to be all the rage not too long ago - now, no one gives a shit. We all got fatigued with it. MMA has replaced boxing. Old people watch awards shows - young people don't care - they have smartphones to tend to. THis is just a dude pushing his own political agenda

The beauty of life in the differing perspectives, for sure.

From my end, I personally agree with his positions here, in that there is a clear political positioning from Hollywood output. And that output aligns perfectly with a postmodern worldview. It's up to each person to decide if they agree with that being good or not.

Surely there are elements we can all agree on (even when we don't agree with the conclusions the video chap reaches):

- The Oscars has become overtly political at a pace it's hard to believe. It was only the 2000s where Michael Moore was booed. It's moved away from a celebration of film to become yet another organ of the relentless politicisation of every facet of life. Film is supposed to unite. To breakdown barriers and to highlight our commonalities, not our differences which are being exaggerated and presented as chasms impossible to navigate. Surely we an agree the Oscars is not celebrating art > politics right now, or a celebration of what film for everyone. The art.

- We have a relentless focus on the identity of the filmmakers and actors.

This should be pretty easy to agree on. More political, more identity focused.

We can disagree on the merit of the above, but agreeing on those two points should be uncontroversial.

The Critical Drinker's summary is pretty much:

- Stop focusing on the superificial elements > the art
- Pampered, morally imperfect individuals forcing their political opinions on people is tiresome. Pretty sure most of us feel this way when it's relentlessly done in our personal space
- Film is escapism, and content needn't be relentlessly politcial in nature
- The entertainment has become secondary to the messaging

Personally agree with all of the above, and whilst I love a thoughtful, compelling and provocative political film as much as the next person, my biggest gripe with politically-focused output right now is that it's poorly made. It's not attempting to challenge; it's attempting to persuade (at best) or browbeat me into submission (at worst), often offering up opinion as fact.

Anyway, just thought I'd share the video because I love film, care about it, and want a relentless focus only on the art, rarther than sullying this unique medium by soaking it in the culture wars x

Quoted from LC Used to love the Oscars. Big event in our house with popcorn and betting. Covid wrecked this last one. It looked like it was held in a shopping food-court. Anthony H. couldn't even be bothered stayng up and Zooming it in for his best actor gong, which was a definite anti-climax. Our cinemas are open, but the offerings are a bit Blah. P.S. Nice to see you Andrew.  ;)

Likewise :)

I'll try and be more active again, and not just with political stuff!

Hope you're well :)

Quoted from Andrew The beauty of life in the differing perspectives, for sure. From my end, I personally agree with his positions here, in that there is a clear political positioning from Hollywood output. And that output aligns perfectly with a postmodern worldview. It's up to each person to decide if they agree with that being good or not. Surely there are elements we can all agree on (even when we don't agree with the conclusions the video chap reaches): - The Oscars has become overtly political at a pace it's hard to believe. It was only the 2000s where Michael Moore was booed. It's moved away from a celebration of film to become yet another organ of the relentless politicisation of every facet of life. Film is supposed to unite. To breakdown barriers and to highlight our commonalities, not our differences which are being exaggerated and presented as chasms impossible to navigate. Surely we an agree the Oscars is not celebrating art > politics right now, or a celebration of what film for everyone. The art. - We have a relentless focus on the identity of the filmmakers and actors. This should be pretty easy to agree on. More political, more identity focused. We can disagree on the merit of the above, but agreeing on those two points should be uncontroversial. The Critical Drinker's summary is pretty much: - Stop focusing on the superificial elements > the art - Pampered, morally imperfect individuals forcing their political opinions on people is tiresome. Pretty sure most of us feel this way when it's relentlessly done in our personal space - Film is escapism, and content needn't be relentlessly politcial in nature - The entertainment has become secondary to the messaging Personally agree with all of the above, and whilst I love a thoughtful, compelling and provocative political film as much as the next person, my biggest gripe with politically-focused output right now is that it's poorly made. It's not attempting to challenge; it's attempting to persuade (at best) or browbeat me into submission (at worst), often offering up opinion as fact. Anyway, just thought I'd share the video because I love film, care about it, and want a relentless focus only on the art, rarther than sullying this unique medium by soaking it in the culture wars x

I think you are misunderstanding my point. For argument's sake (and only that), let's say the Oscars have become more political, left and identity-based.  That is one thing. It is quite another thing to then conclude that the existence of those conditions = ratings plumment. Classical case of confusing correlation with causation.

There are so many other variables that could contribute to decline.

- What I mentioned before about changes in demographics and viewership tastes.
- The Pandemic
- The lack of credible, popular hosts (note - viewership peaked in 2014 when Ellen was the host - And my candidate for the most likely
- The growing divide between what people watch and what is actually nominated. With Marvel, DC, Avengers, Star Wars, animation dominating the box-office - none of the movies that people cared enough to watch are ever nominated and ergo - people to care to watch a show about honoring the films and stars they didn't watch. There used to be some alignment between box office and nominations. Today that is non-existent.

But the dude in the video wants to lay this all off at the feet of identity politics, the culture war, blah, blah, blah. It's like me saying that there was a four-year decline in ratings during the Trump years so I blame Trump.  

And all his horseshit about the political movies Hollywood makes - really - here is the top 10 box office for 2019:

1     Avengers: Endgame     
2     The Lion King
3     Frozen II     
4     Spider-Man: Far from Home     
5     Captain Marvel     
6     Joker     
7     Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker     
8     Toy Story 4     
9     Aladdin     
10     Jumanji: The Next Level     

Yeah - I can see the real liberal agenda here - how are these not exactly the "entertainment" that the dude was calling for Hollywood to make. - And note - it doesn't get any better as you go down the list.

The dude is just spewing his own dogma as an attack against what he views as Hollywood dogma which makes him as guilty as the institution he is railing against.

Quoted from eldave1 I think you are misunderstanding my point. For argument's sake (and only that), let's say the Oscars have become more political, left and identity-based.  That is one thing. It is quite another thing to then conclude that the existence of those conditions = ratings plumment. Classical case of confusing correlation with causation. There are so many other variables that could contribute to decline. - What I mentioned before about changes in demographics and viewership tastes. - The Pandemic - The lack of credible, popular hosts (note - viewership peaked in 2014 when Ellen was the host - And my candidate for the most likely - The growing divide between what people watch and what is actually nominated. With Marvel, DC, Avengers, Star Wars, animation dominating the box-office - none of the movies that people cared enough to watch are ever nominated and ergo - people to care to watch a show about honoring the films and stars they didn't watch. There used to be some alignment between box office and nominations. Today that is non-existent. But the dude in the video wants to lay this all off at the feet of identity politics, the culture war, blah, blah, blah. It's like me saying that there was a four-year decline in ratings during the Trump years so I blame Trump.   And all his horseshit about the political movies Hollywood makes - really - here is the top 10 box office for 2019: 1     Avengers: Endgame      2     The Lion King 3     Frozen II      4     Spider-Man: Far from Home      5     Captain Marvel      6     Joker      7     Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker      8     Toy Story 4      9     Aladdin      10     Jumanji: The Next Level      Yeah - I can see the real liberal agenda here - how are these not exactly the "entertainment" that the dude was calling for Hollywood to make. - And note - it doesn't get any better as you go down the list. The dude is just spewing his own dogma as an attack against what he views as Hollywood dogma which makes him as guilty as the institution he is railing against.

I hear you, and I understood your original post and point.

I tried to cover that, i.e. acknowledging different perspectives, and whether or not it's a good thing that we are seeing increasingly overt political statements is a personal choice.

As for the cause of the decline, there are, of course, a number of metrics that could account for it. No one really knows the answer to that for sure. One such way is to mionitor the drop-off in audience by % versus awards like the Grammys, which could hint at whether or not it's a generational issue.

I agree with the video, and you don't, which is all good.

Just trying to establish some common reality, i.e. an increase in politics in awards and output, plus a significantly increased focus on identity. Again, it's up to each individual to decide if those are good developments or not. We all have our own opinions on that.

In terms of BO, even those films which are hits are full of dialogue about 'white people this, white people that', which mirrors the broader discourse around race, and what's permissible to say, and what's not.

The bigger issue is I'm a centre left liberal, and I detest this stuff. People on the right much more so. Plenty are too afraid to say anything at all. My fear remains that while you may not see what I'm mentioning (and you may be right, and me wrong), there is a significant number who do, many of whom are written off as right wingers beyond saving, but such a claim is more difficult against a liberal like me! Film will inevitably suffer if people are turned off from it because of over politicisation, which is really at the root of the video.

Yes, the guy is being very political himself, but as a reaction to Hollywood, not in instigation. The guy just loves film, and this video is his view on how the current political climate in film is endagering its existence.

Quoted from Andrew The beauty of life in the differing perspectives, for sure. From my end, I personally agree with his positions here, in that there is a clear political positioning from Hollywood output. And that output aligns perfectly with a postmodern worldview. It's up to each person to decide if they agree with that being good or not. Surely there are elements we can all agree on (even when we don't agree with the conclusions the video chap reaches): - The Oscars has become overtly political at a pace it's hard to believe. It was only the 2000s where Michael Moore was booed. It's moved away from a celebration of film to become yet another organ of the relentless politicisation of every facet of life. Film is supposed to unite. To breakdown barriers and to highlight our commonalities, not our differences which are being exaggerated and presented as chasms impossible to navigate. Surely we an agree the Oscars is not celebrating art > politics right now, or a celebration of what film for everyone. The art. - We have a relentless focus on the identity of the filmmakers and actors. This should be pretty easy to agree on. More political, more identity focused. We can disagree on the merit of the above, but agreeing on those two points should be uncontroversial. The Critical Drinker's summary is pretty much: - Stop focusing on the superificial elements > the art - Pampered, morally imperfect individuals forcing their political opinions on people is tiresome. Pretty sure most of us feel this way when it's relentlessly done in our personal space - Film is escapism, and content needn't be relentlessly politcial in nature - The entertainment has become secondary to the messaging Personally agree with all of the above, and whilst I love a thoughtful, compelling and provocative political film as much as the next person, my biggest gripe with politically-focused output right now is that it's poorly made. It's not attempting to challenge; it's attempting to persuade (at best) or browbeat me into submission (at worst), often offering up opinion as fact. Anyway, just thought I'd share the video because I love film, care about it, and want a relentless focus only on the art, rarther than sullying this unique medium by soaking it in the culture wars x

Agree 110% with all of this. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quoted from Andrew The bigger issue is I'm a centre left liberal, and I detest this stuff. People on the right much more so. Plenty are too afraid to say anything at all. My fear remains that while you may not see what I'm mentioning (and you may be right, and me wrong), there is a significant number who do, many of whom are written off as right wingers beyond saving...

Unfortunately, this is a very real fear. :(

Quoted from Andrew As for the cause of the decline, there are, of course, a number of metrics that could account for it. No one really knows the answer to that for sure. One such way is to mionitor the drop-off in audience by % versus awards like the Grammys, which could hint at whether or not it's a generational issue. I agree with the video, and you don't, which is all good. Just trying to establish some common reality, i.e. an increase in politics in awards and output, plus a significantly increased focus on identity. Again, it's up to each individual to decide if those are good developments or not. We all have our own opinions on that. In terms of BO, even those films which are hits are full of dialogue about 'white people this, white people that', which mirrors the broader discourse around race, and what's permissible to say, and what's not. The bigger issue is I'm a centre left liberal, and I detest this stuff. People on the right much more so. Plenty are too afraid to say anything at all. My fear remains that while you may not see what I'm mentioning (and you may be right, and me wrong), there is a significant number who do, many of whom are written off as right wingers beyond saving, but such a claim is more difficult against a liberal like me! Film will inevitably suffer if people are turned off from it because of over politicisation, which is really at the root of the video. Yes, the guy is being very political himself, but as a reaction to Hollywood, not in instigation. The guy just loves film, and this video is his view on how the current political climate in film is endagering its existence.

First - Grammy ratings down 51%.

Second - are political leanings seem to be similar - I am a moderate for the most part.

Third - we are in disagreement on the place of politics in film and the Oscars, I take no umbrage to the expression of views by actors, directors, producers -  even the ones I disagree with.  That's their right.

There is no rule that requires they are politically vanilla and who is this dude to proclaim that actors and directors need to check their first amendment rights and political views at the door so as not to ruin his award presentation viewing?

Film, actors and producers have always been political because they are made by humans. They glorified war for a period of time and then they chastised it for a period of time. They made fun of gays for a period of time and they elevated gays for a period of time.  They pictured Indians as slaughter-worthy for a period of time and then pictured them as victims of genocide.  etc. effing etc.

So yeah, even as a Democrat, I am not a fan of wokeness and identity politics and think that they can be counterproductive. BUT  I would never have the hubris this dude does to lecture others when it is and isn't appropriate to express their views.  It's not his effing award - it's theirs.  If Brando wants to talk about the plight of the American Indian when he accepts his - cool - whatever. ANd id Heston wants to talk about the greatness of America when he accepts his - okey-dokey. It's the best part of living in a free society.

The Oscars are plummeting for two simple reasons. The church of social justice has destroyed the films and shows it give awards for and thus, the show itself.  Most of the actors are chosen not because they can act, but you know why. We all do. It's a cult and a creepy one.

It's done horrific damage to film and story. And it's mandatory we speak out against it.

Some of you are getting a bit out over your skis on this one, IMO.

Oscar ratings were crappy this year because there were, like, 10 films released last year and pretty much nobody saw any of them.

All of this agenda-mongering is simply the tired flip-side of the already exhausted culture war coin.

Quoted from bert Some of you are getting a bit out over your skis on this one, IMO. Oscar ratings were crappy this year because there were, like, 10 films released last year and pretty much nobody saw any of them. All of this agenda-mongering is simply the tired flip-side of the already exhausted culture war coin.

Yup

Quoted from bert Some of you are getting a bit out over your skis on this one, IMO. Oscar ratings were crappy this year because there were, like, 10 films released last year and pretty much nobody saw any of them. All of this agenda-mongering is simply the tired flip-side of the already exhausted culture war coin.

Got to disagree with you on this one, berty bert.

Surely we can all agree the awards have been overtly political in an unprecedented manner, and analysis of film includes a breakdown of representation like never before.

We can agree to disagree if it's good or bad to see film and awards go that route, and whether or not it has impacted ratings, but surely we can agree on the existence of the phenomena?

Quoted from Andrew Got to disagree with you on this one, berty bert. Surely we can all agree the awards have been overtly political in an unprecedented manner, and analysis of film includes a breakdown of representation like never before. We can agree to disagree if it's good or bad to see film and awards go that route, and whether or not it has impacted ratings, but surely we can agree on the existence of the phenomena?

Hey Andrew, we mostly do agree.  I just don't think it is anything new.

Film and art has always been this way.  You can find plenty of political stuff at Oscars past if you care to look; Brando, Chayefsky, Moore, and others.

Actors have a huge platform, and many have chosen to use it throughout the years.  I would.  And if anybody told me to shut up and act, I would politely tell them to go fuck themselves.

What is new is the former guy taking huge public offense -- treating any public declaration of decency as some kind of personal attack -- and then by extension his supporters adopt a similar stance.  So now instead of the usual background noise it is supposed to be some huge part of the cultural landscape and people have one more thing to get worked up about.

That, and "he" is the only reason "awful ratings" are a even thing. And getting into a twitter war with the vastly over-rated Meryl Streep lmao.

Now, I do think the "representation" standards are just weird, but would wager the vast majority of film watchers do not know or even care. I am still unsure what to make of this one, tbh.

But mainly, I go back to the original video. Attacking the culture warriors just makes you a different type of warrior. And all of the outrage feels as manufactured as any Hollywood offering to me.

Quoted from Andrew Got to disagree with you on this one, berty bert. Surely we can all agree the awards have been overtly political in an unprecedented manner, and analysis of film includes a breakdown of representation like never before. We can agree to disagree if it's good or bad to see film and awards go that route, and whether or not it has impacted ratings, but surely we can agree on the existence of the phenomena?

I don't think it is so much the "existence" or non-existence of the phenomenon. It's the level of angst and importance attached to it and the proposed solutions to counter it.

FOX News, right-wing radio, Breitbart, etc have been waging a culture war against the Left for decades. Ironically, most of the people getting in a tither because Actor A said Black Live Matter or because a 2nd tier quarterback dare take a knee at a football game are the same people that didn't raise an eyebrow when these same people called Obama a Kenyan born, Muslim, said our elections were rigged, labeled supporters of universal healthcare as communists, etc., etc - effing etc.

And yes - Left-wing media is guilty of the same thing.

I agree that cancel culture is bad (although on the scale of things that really matter in life - way, WAY down on the list). But what I simply cannot understand is how forbidding Actors and filmmakers from incorporating their political views in their work is not the very definition of cancel culture.  What I don't understand is why the same people who want to silence these folks are not just as concerned that Holly Hobby and Chick- Fil A are donating millions to suppress gay rights nd birth control (why can't they just effing sell crafts and chicken and keep their money to themselves!!!! How dare they screw with my arts and lunch!)

Dudes like the one making that video don't want us solving problems - they want to build their tribes. They are the type that are horrified that Clinton got a BJ but not bothered by Trump paying off a hooker. Conversely,  those horrified by Trump's dalliances are not bothered a bit by JFK's.  

Yes, we can all agree that political and social elements incorporated into filmmaking and awards shows. I think that has always been the case (somehow Jane Fonda and the anti-Viernam war activism didn't destroy the Oscars).... But your video dude was not arguing that - he was arguing that they should just shut up.  And that is where his video moves from information to just one more destructive piece of propaganda.

I still think my explanation of why the viewing numbers are down explains it all.  ;) ;D

Quoted from Grandma Bear I still think my explanation of why the viewing numbers are down explains it all.  ;) ;D

Indeed.

Quoted from eldave1 Dudes like the one making that video don't want us solving problems - they want to build their tribes.

You could make the argument that this "dude" is actually calling attention to a tribe that has already been formed.

Different perspectives.  :)

Quoted from bert Hey Andrew, we mostly do agree.  I just don't think it is anything new. Film and art has always been this way.  You can find plenty of political stuff at Oscars past if you care to look; Brando, Chayefsky, Moore, and others. Actors have a huge platform, and many have chosen to use it throughout the years.  I would.  And if anybody told me to shut up and act, I would politely tell them to go fuck themselves. What is new is the former guy taking huge public offense -- treating any public declaration of decency as some kind of personal attack -- and then by extension his supporters adopt a similar stance.  So now instead of the usual background noise it is supposed to be some huge part of the cultural landscape and people have one more thing to get worked up about. That, and "he" is the only reason "awful ratings" are a even thing. And getting into a twitter war with the vastly over-rated Meryl Streep lmao. Now, I do think the "representation" standards are just weird, but would wager the vast majority of film watchers do not know or even care. I am still unsure what to make of this one, tbh. But mainly, I go back to the original video. Attacking the culture warriors just makes you a different type of warrior. And all of the outrage feels as manufactured as any Hollywood offering to me.

Yeah, I'd say the three of us would be broadly on the same page politically, and would likely all pull the same lever at the ballot box.

I do agree that political statements at the Oscars are nothing new per se - in that they have occurred previously - but what has changed is the volume, intensity and arena. So now rather than an isolated actor coming on stage and vomiting their unsolicited opinion on a subject with peers rolling their eyes, we now have multiple winners doing it, political statements in their garments, pre-awards interviews, and wall-to-wall coverage policing for language use and presenters losing the gig for tweets years old.

That's quite different. Both in intensity and volume. I just don't think it's necessarily controversial to agree that the tone of the show is very, very different to, let's say, 5-10 years ago. And it's happened rapidly.

I don't think we get anywhere on the debate as to whether or not that has caused the ratings drop, but it's important to agree on that basic tenet so any discussion happens with a common reality. That lack of base is what hampers much political debate today: people are not even agreeing on basic facts before debating outcomes and policies.

Glad we agree on representation guidelines. It's begging for ignorant stereotypes to be written, which means bland, boring scripts. To enshrine x and y in diversity is forcing writers to clearly define a 'minority', meaning we get cookie cutters of a 'minority' (and reinforce ignorant, ironically racist belief 'minorities' are monoliths, yet whites can be diverse of thought and action), rather than fluid writing that encapsulates the actual rich diversity of individuals who happen to have a certain skin hue. Unless there are specific cultural baselines in the scripts, we should be writing compelling characters, and with the 360 degree nature of the individual, it can be played by any race.

These guidelines will give way to the absurdity that writers only write for their race and gender, and then gives way for further debasing of acting with only straight people playing straight people, etc. We have already seen this silliness, and giving people pushing these ideas an inch and they'll definitely take a mile.

It's crucial to protect the art, which we all agree on!

Quoted from eldave1 I don't think it is so much the "existence" or non-existence of the phenomenon. It's the level of angst and importance attached to it and the proposed solutions to counter it. FOX News, right-wing radio, Breitbart, etc have been waging a culture war against the Left for decades. Ironically, most of the people getting in a tither because Actor A said Black Live Matter or because a 2nd tier quarterback dare take a knee at a football game are the same people that didn't raise an eyebrow when these same people called Obama a Kenyan born, Muslim, said our elections were rigged, labeled supporters of universal healthcare as communists, etc., etc - effing etc. And yes - Left-wing media is guilty of the same thing. I agree that cancel culture is bad (although on the scale of things that really matter in life - way, WAY down on the list). But what I simply cannot understand is how forbidding Actors and filmmakers from incorporating their political views in their work is not the very definition of cancel culture.  What I don't understand is why the same people who want to silence these folks are not just as concerned that Holly Hobby and Chick- Fil A are donating millions to suppress gay rights nd birth control (why can't they just effing sell crafts and chicken and keep their money to themselves!!!! How dare they screw with my arts and lunch!) Dudes like the one making that video don't want us solving problems - they want to build their tribes. They are the type that are horrified that Clinton got a BJ but not bothered by Trump paying off a hooker. Conversely,  those horrified by Trump's dalliances are not bothered a bit by JFK's.   Yes, we can all agree that political and social elements incorporated into filmmaking and awards shows. I think that has always been the case (somehow Jane Fonda and the anti-Viernam war activism didn't destroy the Oscars).... But your video dude was not arguing that - he was arguing that they should just shut up.  And that is where his video moves from information to just one more destructive piece of propaganda.

As I just wrote to bert, there are two discussons here:

1) Can we agree on increased politicisation and focus on representation; it's a rapid spike in politics versus years gone by
2) The merits of that and the merits of the video.

On 1) my feeling is you're reluctant to agree on it fully because it is like giving ground to the Breitbart types. I don't think agreement on obvious and in front of our eyes developments is anything but recognising reality. It's not tacit agreement with the position of another to say, yes, there's obviously an increase in politics and a focus on representation.

As for 2), The Academy is producing a show where politics is at the centre of it. The awards nominations and winners are clearly influenced by it (hence the sudden spike in diversity in winners - not bad in and of itself, but clearly an outgrowth of the social pressure, which serves to embolden and intensify the pressure further).

It doesn't sound like we will ever agree on point 2, and what has caused the catastrophic ratings drop. I do feel you're misrepresenting the guy's video, though. He isn't arguing for artists to silence themselves politically, he is arguing against the shoehorning of trite political statements in every movie, and especially so when it's superfluous to the plot. He is arguing against the awards ceremonies making statements that alienate huge swathes of its audience, and he is warning of the blowback for the industry.

Much of his ire is actually against the shoehorning of politicial messaging in popcorn flicks, and highlights how muh of it is corporate $ focused anyway. Saying and ticking the right boxes to bask in the glow of the social media echo chamber. And he is arguing that this shifted focus moves away from the principal goal of entertaining the audience, and the result is poorer moviemaking. Much of this is directed towards popcorn flicks.

As for freedom of speech, we all know that if an actor had the audacity to be so public with Republican views (let's say anti-abortion), they'd be drowned in negativity, and calls for their cancellation. I don't agree with the pro-life stance, but appreciate it's an opinion, and someone should be allowed to voice that opinion, but that I really don't want to see it at the Oscars.

Ditto for calling the US - and West by extension - a racist, white supremacist patriarchy. Again, that's an opinion, but it's an opinion treated as fact by its adherents and they are forcing this opinion on people at awards and through film. Many disagree with that opinion, and dislike being told they're morally defective for disagreeing with this opinion, and don't want to watch a three hour show that riffs on that opinion.

So there is a double standard, and it ruins the show. As for the white supremacist narrative being weaved into film itself, it just makes for shitty work. Why? Because the filmmakers are making the 'message' primary and the entertainment secondary. Great filmmakers don't do that. They are focused on story religiously, and tease out complexities and nuance through story, not with on the nose dialogue and narrative to lash out at political foes.

It's not right wing to hold the view that the white supremacist narrative is BS. I think we need to recognise that, and try to disentangle the politics from the ideas whilst amplifying the need for moderation and reason.

I'd recommend watching more of his videos, because viewed in isolation, that video can be seen as purely political (it is in part political itself), but his broader work reveals the nuance.

And it also comes down to a simple question: if film is clearly corrupted by an ideologial moral panic, at what point is criticism of that fighting for film rather than engaging in the flip side of politics?

Quoted from Grandma Bear I still think my explanation of why the viewing numbers are down explains it all.  ;) ;D

:)

Quoted from Andrew And it also comes down to a simple question: if film is clearly corrupted by an ideological moral panic, at what point is criticism of that fighting for film rather than engaging in the flip side of politics?

I think, briefly, this stabs at the heart of what I also see and what I was trying to say.  Though I might argue that "clearly" feels like too strong a word in this context.

This seems largely a debate for those who follow film a bit closer than most -- artists arguing in circles amongst themselves -- while the general public that just likes to watch movies remains blissfully unaware of all this hand-wringing behind the scenes.

What has changed, I also agree, is the intensity and volume of opinions -- facilitated by the brave new world of social media in which any crackpot espousing virtually any opinion can now find a broad audience. I doubt I have to tell you who I am primarily looking at here.

So now it serves as one more wedge amongst "the tribes" to entrench themselves in pools of outrage they would have little noticed or even cared about in the past.

Save the Seuss and Potato-Head über alles.

It's exhausting.  I've no more answers than anybody else.  It is just the place where we find ourselves now.

Quoted Text 1) Can we agree on increased politicisation and focus on representation; it's a rapid spike in politics versus years gone by

Yep

Quoted Text 2) The merits of that and the merits of the video.

The video was trash - more later.

Quoted Text On 1) my feeling is you're reluctant to agree on it fully because it is like giving ground to the Breitbart types. I don't think agreement on obvious and in front of our eyes developments is anything but recognising reality. It's not tacit agreement with the position of another to say, yes, there's obviously an increase in politics and a focus on representation.

You're wrong. I am not reluctant to agree on it. It has zero to do with my point.

As for 2), The Academy is producing a show where politics is at the centre of it. The awards nominations and winners are clearly influenced by it (hence the sudden spike in diversity in winners - not bad in and of itself, but clearly an outgrowth of the social pressure, which serves to embolden and intensify the pressure further).

Who the fuck knows. At this point total conjecture on your part as to the outcome. That is unless you can tell me which specific nomination or win was the result of this evil? What you are concluding here is that the diversity of nominations is the direct result of people ignoring talent and instead making nominations and winners based on the actor's race. Could it not be possible as well that the nominations are now more diverse because race is not a disqualifying factor???

Quoted Text It doesn't sound like we will ever agree on point 2, and what has caused the catastrophic ratings drop.

No - we won't. I don't know. You don't know. Video dude doesn't know.

Quoted Text I do feel you're misrepresenting the guy's video, though. He isn't arguing for artists to silence themselves politically, he is arguing against the shoehorning of trite political statements in every movie, and especially so when it's superfluous to the plot. He is arguing against the awards ceremonies making statements that alienate huge swathes of its audience, and he is warning of the blowback for the industry. Much of his ire is actually against the shoehorning of politicial messaging in popcorn flicks, and highlights how muh of it is corporate $ focused anyway. Saying and ticking the right boxes to bask in the glow of the social media echo chamber. And he is arguing that this shifted focus moves away from the principal goal of entertaining the audience, and the result is poorer moviemaking. Much of this is directed towards popcorn flicks.

Totally wrong - read the transcript of the video. Here is just the starting gem.

More and more people used their time on the podium to push their hastily concocted political opinions. comment on the social issues of the day and of course rail against the orange man for some cheap applause.


So, it is not just actors expressing political views.  They are illegitimate views.  They are hastily concocted and only done for cheap applause and to attack Trump.

this kind of unwelcome political diarrhea all went hand in hand with demands for nominees to be picked based on their demographic makeup rather than the quality of their work


So, it's not legitimate views - it's diarrhea. Got it. And their goal is to solely pick nominees based on their race. No room there for thinking - to not exclude nominees based on their race???

I goes on and on - read the actual transcript. It's not that they are just expressing political views - it is that they are expressing illegitimate ones.

Quoted Text As for freedom of speech, we all know that if an actor had the audacity to be so public with Republican views (let's say anti-abortion), they'd be drowned in negativity, and calls for their cancellation. I don't agree with the pro-life stance, but appreciate it's an opinion, and someone should be allowed to voice that opinion, but that I really don't want to see it at the Oscars.

So what if you don't? Then don't watch. And yes the industry is heavily left leaning. So??? You don;t think that Wall Street and the energy industries are heavily right leaning???  You don't think the evangelicals on TV aren't? Should we tell them to go away? My view is that regardless if they are 100% Birch Society or 100% Marxist - it doesn't change their right to be.  Is there some grand list somewhere that shows which industries must be neutral??? Is is just movie making?? Please, what are the ones that are to remain silent?

This kinds video is just one more tired version of just shut up and dribble.

Quoted Text Ditto for calling the US - and West by extension - a racist, white supremacist patriarchy. Again, that's an opinion, but it's an opinion treated as fact by its adherents and they are forcing this opinion on people at awards and through film.

You meant they're expressing the opinions - not forcing them - right??? Was there someone forced to read some diatribe at gun point that I was not aware of?  

Quoted Text Many disagree with that opinion and dislike being told they're morally defective for disagreeing with this opinion, and don't want to watch a three hour show that riffs on that opinion.

Then.... they can turn it off.  That is the solution. What is not the solution is to demand that Actors and Producers shut-up so video guy can enjoy his awards show.  

Quoted Text So there is a double standard, and it ruins the show. As for the white supremacist narrative being weaved into film itself, it just makes for shitty work. Why? Because the filmmakers are making the 'message' primary and the entertainment secondary. Great filmmakers don't do that. They are focused on story religiously, and tease out complexities and nuance through story, not with on the nose dialogue and narrative to lash out at political foes.

First - again - turn it off. And second what films were not made because of this evil??? Again - just check the top box office films of 2019 - ya really think those were left-wing agenda films - or were they merely,, as always - what Hollywood thought they could make money off.

Quoted Text It's not right wing to hold the view that the white supremacist narrative is BS. I think we need to recognise that, and try to disentangle the politics from the ideas whilst amplifying the need for moderation and reason.

Nor is it left-wing to believe that the white supremacist narrative is legitimate - right?

Quoted Text I'd recommend watching more of his videos, because viewed in isolation, that video can be seen as purely political (it is in part political itself), but his broader work reveals the nuance.

No. I watched it. I read every line. IMO it's horsehit. I don't need to listen to more.

Quoted Text And it also comes down to a simple question: if film is clearly corrupted by an ideologial moral panic, at what point is criticism of that fighting for film rather than engaging in the flip side of politics?

Is it?? Which films were corrupted by a moral panic?? Again - please look at the top 100 box office from 2019  and let me know which one or more that were - than I'll assess that film.  

It ain't all that complicated to me.

Actors and Producers are people.
People have a right to an opinion
People have a right to express that opinion - right or wrong
Perople have a right to not listen to them.

What this dude wants is for his entertainers to shut up and dribble. And I highly expect from his diatribe, he doesn't share that view when it's on the flip side.  That makes him just more toxic noise.

Quoted from eldave1 Yep The video was trash - more later. You're wrong. I am not reluctant to agree on it. It has zero to do with my point. As for 2), The Academy is producing a show where politics is at the centre of it. The awards nominations and winners are clearly influenced by it (hence the sudden spike in diversity in winners - not bad in and of itself, but clearly an outgrowth of the social pressure, which serves to embolden and intensify the pressure further). Who the fuck knows. At this point total conjecture on your part as to the outcome. That is unless you can tell me which specific nomination or win was the result of this evil? What you are concluding here is that the diversity of nominations is the direct result of people ignoring talent and instead making nominations and winners based on the actor's race. Could it not be possible as well that the nominations are now more diverse because race is not a disqualifying factor??? No - we won't. I don't know. You don't know. Video dude doesn't know. Totally wrong - read the transcript of the video. Here is just the starting gem. More and more people used their time on the podium to push their hastily concocted political opinions. comment on the social issues of the day and of course rail against the orange man for some cheap applause. So, it is not just actors expressing political views.  They are illegitimate views.  They are hastily concocted and only done for cheap applause and to attack Trump. this kind of unwelcome political diarrhea all went hand in hand with demands for nominees to be picked based on their demographic makeup rather than the quality of their work So, it's not legitimate views - it's diarrhea. Got it. And their goal is to solely pick nominees based on their race. No room there for thinking - to not exclude nominees based on their race??? I goes on and on - read the actual transcript. It's not that they are just expressing political views - it is that they are expressing illegitimate ones. So what if you don't? Then don't watch. And yes the industry is heavily left leaning. So??? You don;t think that Wall Street and the energy industries are heavily right leaning???  You don't think the evangelicals on TV aren't? Should we tell them to go away? My view is that regardless if they are 100% Birch Society or 100% Marxist - it doesn't change their right to be.  Is there some grand list somewhere that shows which industries must be neutral??? Is is just movie making?? Please, what are the ones that are to remain silent? This kinds video is just one more tired version of just shut up and dribble. You meant they're expressing the opinions - not forcing them - right??? Was there someone forced to read some diatribe at gun point that I was not aware of?   Then.... they can turn it off.  That is the solution. What is not the solution is to demand that Actors and Producers shut-up so video guy can enjoy his awards show.   First - again - turn it off. And second what films were not made because of this evil??? Again - just check the top box office films of 2019 - ya really think those were left-wing agenda films - or were they merely,, as always - what Hollywood thought they could make money off. Nor is it left-wing to believe that the white supremacist narrative is legitimate - right? No. I watched it. I read every line. IMO it's horsehit. I don't need to listen to more. Is it?? Which films were corrupted by a moral panic?? Again - please look at the top 100 box office from 2019  and let me know which one or more that were - than I'll assess that film.   It ain't all that complicated to me. Actors and Producers are people. People have a right to an opinion People have a right to express that opinion - right or wrong Perople have a right to not listen to them. What this dude wants is for his entertainers to shut up and dribble. And I highly expect from his diatribe, he doesn't share that view when it's on the flip side.  That makes him just more toxic noise.

This is no longer productive.

Have a good one, mate :)

Quoted from bert I think, briefly, this stabs at the heart of what I also see and what I was trying to say.  Though I might argue that "clearly" feels like too strong a word in this context. This seems largely a debate for those who follow film a bit closer than most -- artists arguing in circles amongst themselves -- while the general public that just likes to watch movies remains blissfully unaware of all this hand-wringing behind the scenes. What has changed, I also agree, is the intensity and volume of opinions -- facilitated by the brave new world of social media in which any crackpot espousing virtually any opinion can now find a broad audience. I doubt I have to tell you who I am primarily looking at here. So now it serves as one more wedge amongst "the tribes" to entrench themselves in pools of outrage they would have little noticed or even cared about in the past. Save the Seuss and Potato-Head über alles. It's exhausting.  I've no more answers than anybody else.  It is just the place where we find ourselves now.

Yeah, that's it. We don't really know the answers (and the answers are many shades of grey if they even do exist), and sensible dialogue stripped of emotion is hard to find. And the media profits off that sweet spot of emotion > reason. There is also a burgeoning industry profiting off the media being lazy and rejecting nuance by complaining about it (which is where The Critical Drinker likely sits). All the while we get no closer to making progress on anything of note.

Agree that the public at large are less engaged, but do think there's increasing recognition of a change in tone in output and awards. And most have very little time for politics in day-to-day and don't want to have to discuss it and face it relentessly. That's where I personally believe the Oscars have overegged it, and we are seeing a decline in interest. Made worse by the messaging coming from people who preen as morally superior but lack the bona fides to justify it.

Anyway, I myself am now guilty of being overly political, so will dive in and read some scripts!

Quoted from Andrew This is no longer productive. Have a good one, mate :)

Well, if productive = agreement. Then yep, Have a good one.

Quoted from Zack You could make the argument that this "dude" is actually calling attention to a tribe that has already been formed. Different perspectives.  :)

Without a doubt, the tribes have been formed. Not sure how many times I can say it - but I don't disagree with the premise that there is wokeness, political correctness or whatever term of art you want to mention in some films and in Hollywood in general. It is a left-leaning entity.

What I disagree with is a) that means they should shut up and not express their views, and b) there is some nefarious evil behind their agendas.  i.e., people can be wrong with the best of  intentions. Right or wrong, they could be pursing their agenda because they simply think it is the right thing to do.  

And finally, I disagreed with that is why the ratings drop. I think it is more likely they dropped because of a) the Pandemic, b) the ever-growing divide between box office movies and quality movies  c) changing demographics - could very well be that awards show on your grandparent's thing - not the up and coming generations' thing, and d) everything that Pia said.

I think we can all agree - now that Aunt Jemima is off a bottle of syrup, America has been cleansed of its racist past - forever.

Quoted from eldave1 Without a doubt, the tribes have been formed. Not sure how many times I can say it - but I don't disagree with the premise that there is wokeness, political correctness or whatever term of art you want to mention in some films and in Hollywood in general. It is a left-leaning entity. What I disagree with is a) that means they should shut up and not express their views, and b) there is some nefarious evil behind their agendas.  i.e., people can be wrong with the best of  intentions. Right or wrong, they could be pursing their agenda because they simply think it is the right thing to do.   And finally, I disagreed with that is why the ratings drop. I think it is more likely they dropped because of a) the Pandemic, b) the ever-growing divide between box office movies and quality movies  c) changing demographics - could very well be that awards show on your grandparent's thing - not the up and coming generations' thing, and d) everything that Pia said.

Sound logic. Not sure we fully agree, but that's okay. :)

Quoted from Zack Sound logic. Not sure we fully agree, but that's okay. :)

all's good

Felt compelled to actually watch this video. I don’t think he’s got it all down to a science that the political leanings of some of the movies, and more specifically the Oscar speeches of certain actors, are the cause for the supposed down slide of Hollywood. He sounds more like a man who’s just tired of listening to the politics creeping in. I’ll admit I give an eye roll when an actor goes on about his leanings. Personally, I want to hear the actor thank his mom or his dad, the filmmakers who believed in his dream. But no matter what they say, I don’t think it’s the cause for the ratings drop. It may add a slight drop in certain demographics, but certainly not enough to do much damage — think rigged election.

It’s be interesting to go back and see where the Oscars had its best ratings v when they began slipping and take into account the movies, actors and directors who were nominated that year, not to mention who was hosting.

We have a pandemic. Movies of the past year or so weren’t spectacular, sweeping spectacles. No Spielberg, Scorsese, Cameron, PTA, etc. I don’t know all the names out there, but I guarantee you have the younger versions of those guys making movies right now, still in their cinematic infancy.

Streaming inhibits the grandeur of it all as well, I feel. Video guy was right about the escapism of the movies and, at their best, they whisk you away to a different place for two hours, leaving the theater feeling like you had just taken a great journey. It’s hard to get that same feeling, IMO, sitting on your couch. It’s an event, going to the movies. A mini vacation of sorts. At least it was to me. And I feel that the Oscars shows of the past reflected that in their excessiveness.

Video guy sounded like the politics was ruining this experience, and I don’t agree with that at all. The pandemic fucked it up this year. Marvel keeps dumbing it down, and that’s not to say I don’t like superhero movies - I do. But the gravy train is definitely turning to the proven film demographic they know will make money. Less risk, more upside. More dollars. Less dramas, thrillers, comedies - ie, human connection.

First up, for next year, get a damn HOST!

Yes, get a host! Or even a double-act. Do a song and dance number, mix in the comedic montage with film clips, crack some silly jokes. Run all the film clips for the nominated films and the actor's performances. Hollywood is glitz and glamour. Hopefully when things return to normal all these things will make a comeback.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Steve about the wonderful escapism that is watching a movie in the cinema, sitting in the dark for a couple of hours and being taken away on a fantastical journey.  

At the end of the day, whether or not we agree with the video, everyone here cares about film and is passionate about it.

My main gripe is to see film for the art and not through the prism of politics and representation, and I think this hits the nail on the head.

Quoted Text He sounds more like a man who’s just tired of listening to the politics creeping in.

Also, agree on the cinema. Many are prematurely calling the cinema dead.

If anything, I think the pandemic will underscore exactly how important and satisfying that experience is.

I've long expected Netflix to get involved in a cinema, and now fully expect them to gobble up a chain at some point for distribution.

I think the politicization of film, currently, is nothing more than a knee jerk reaction brought upon by the residue of the climate from the past four years or so. Unlike Twitter, where trends come and go and are forgotten about within the space of a day until the next trend, this seems to be sticking a bit longer.

It’s like inclusion. That’s all well and good, but when someone says we need more women or more black screenwriters well, you can’t just pick a screenplay based on race or gender. It still has to be a damn good script, so... Same goes with movies and actors. Not inclusion for inclusions sake.

Look at Dolly Parton. Who knows what her political leanings are? No one. She goes out and entertains to everyone, and she’s beloved. And rightly so.

In the end, who really cares what video guy says? It’s his opinion. He entitled to it. We’re not entitled to listen if we disagree, and it certainly doesn’t mean he’s right.

If we can turn a blind eye to things for a moment, let it be movies. Let the escapism work it’s magic. If Susan Sarandon or Mark Ruffalo is going to make you do anything more than just an eye roll, then the problem most likely is yours and yours alone.

Quoted from SAC Felt compelled to actually watch this video. I don’t think he’s got it all down to a science that the political leanings of some of the movies, and more specifically the Oscar speeches of certain actors, are the cause for the supposed down slide of Hollywood. He sounds more like a man who’s just tired of listening to the politics creeping in. I’ll admit I give an eye roll when an actor goes on about his leanings. Personally, I want to hear the actor thank his mom or his dad, the filmmakers who believed in his dream. But no matter what they say, I don’t think it’s the cause for the ratings drop. It may add a slight drop in certain demographics, but certainly not enough to do much damage — think rigged election. It’s be interesting to go back and see where the Oscars had its best ratings v when they began slipping and take into account the movies, actors and directors who were nominated that year, not to mention who was hosting. We have a pandemic. Movies of the past year or so weren’t spectacular, sweeping spectacles. No Spielberg, Scorsese, Cameron, PTA, etc. I don’t know all the names out there, but I guarantee you have the younger versions of those guys making movies right now, still in their cinematic infancy. Streaming inhibits the grandeur of it all as well, I feel. Video guy was right about the escapism of the movies and, at their best, they whisk you away to a different place for two hours, leaving the theater feeling like you had just taken a great journey. It’s hard to get that same feeling, IMO, sitting on your couch. It’s an event, going to the movies. A mini vacation of sorts. At least it was to me. And I feel that the Oscars shows of the past reflected that in their excessiveness. Video guy sounded like the politics was ruining this experience, and I don’t agree with that at all. The pandemic fucked it up this year. Marvel keeps dumbing it down, and that’s not to say I don’t like superhero movies - I do. But the gravy train is definitely turning to the proven film demographic they know will make money. Less risk, more upside. More dollars. Less dramas, thrillers, comedies - ie, human connection. First up, for next year, get a damn HOST!

Good assessment, IMO

Hi guys,

So, I just spoke to Hollywood and have some bad news for you.

Anyone who shares the same views as evil fascist video guy should consider themselves cancelled.

Anyone who argued against evil fascist video guy yet conceded to some of the points he made should also consider themselves cancelled.

And anyone who didn't fervently argue against evil fascist video guy and remained quiet are the most cancelled of all, because silence is violence (or something like that).


Be well.

Didn't watch The Oscars. I swore off them maybe 2-3 years ago. Too long, too boring, never funny, and surprisingly not even cringey enough to hate watch.

That said, I honestly think The Oscars bombed due to COVID. Theaters largely haven't been open, first and foremost. The places where they have been, people might not have felt safe/comfortable going anyway. I also think a lot of people assumed movies as we know them were effectively cancelled in 2020 (myself included) and might not have even sought out ways to see them where they could, hence movies don't get as much word of mouth during Oscar season. Plus there're so many options for entertainment right now, a lot of folks have simply drifted away from movies (again, myself included -- I didn't even notice until it'd already happened).

Not to mention I don't think the general public have heard of a lot of the nominated films. I had an interest in Sound of Metal because it was co-written by Derek Cianfrance and I know a little bit about the band it's based off of, but for everyone else, it's gotta look like just some rando Amazon original. Nomadland, I hadn't heard of til my friend wrote me about it, and it looked too dull/schmaltzy for my taste, so I passed. Promising Young Woman caught my interest but perhaps no one else's. Even then, the theaters haven't been open in DC, so I had to wait til it was available on Amazon for a decent price.

And the rest, I barely know anything about (except that one joint everyone thought Chadwick Bosman would win).

I haven't even mentioned the woke stuff yet, and I won't comment on it other than to say that clearly some people genuinely hate it and won't watch Hollywood movies, let alone the Oscars, because of it. Agree or disagree, it is what it is.

Not surprised at any of this, quite frankly.

Quoted from Pleb Hi guys, So, I just spoke to Hollywood and have some bad news for you. Anyone who shares the same views as evil fascist video guy should consider themselves cancelled. Anyone who argued against evil fascist video guy yet conceded to some of the points he made should also consider themselves cancelled. And anyone who didn't fervently argue against evil fascist video guy and remained quiet are the most cancelled of all, because silence is violence (or something like that). Be well.

Well said, Max - made my morning:)