Mark, you are right. I'm always amazed when people fail to understand why we do what we do in everything. Human nature are our instincts. Some of those instincts are not popular nowadays and we are told we must think differently because, well, it's 2016!!!! We're modern people now! As if DNA changed in the last hundred years.

I think of it like circles. Our first circle is our immediate family. We can have arguments within the family, but we'll definitely stick together against any other family if it comes to that. The circles get wider the further we zoom out. Our city or town against others, as in sports for example. We unite against that other team regardless of our disagreements within our group. Zoom out further then it's your country against other countries Zoom out even further and it's our planet against whatever might be out there.

That's how I think of things.  

As far as this election went, I think everyone voted for what they truly believe would be the best person for the country. We all stick together for the country we call ours. We all want, as you said, pick the winner because it's in our best interest.

Eldave

" I did not have this bad feeling in the pit of my stomach, when Reagan, Bush, etc were elected as - even though they did not share my values and principles, I thought they were sane men of good intent and that their actions and policies - while not mine, would be reasonable.

The sense of uneasiness on my part stems from the feeling that Trump might be dangerous.  I do not think he possesses the temperament and self restraint needed to manage crisis and that his actions will always be rooted in self interest. I think he is border line insane."

Yup. Most conservatives I know share the unease. Many voted third party. I have been an extremely harsh critic of Trump's. His answers to questions in debates and in interviews give the impression of a man who is grossly uninformed and who has not thought deeply about the issues.

My posts have all been focused on exaggerations. Trump may not be in command of all the facts...but he is not Hitler. He may not be politically correct, but he is not about to put non-whites in concentration camps. He's been a lout when it comes to women in his personal life, but so was Clinton, JFK, and many other heroes in politics.

I don't fault someone for voting Clinton. She was much more qualified.

I don't fault someone for asking hard questions about Trump's new administration. I just wish we asked those questions about the last administration too.

The KKK and white supremacists did not elect Trump. Regular people wanting a change did.

So far, the way he has conducted himself as President elect has been very conventional and measured. That doesn't mean liberals should love his picks...do they expect him to pick liberal Democrats? But the government will go on, there will be good things and bad, but not much will change. There will be no genocides or misogycides.

And if we're going to have standards, let's not make it of the double variety, which I am seeing a lot of. Every admin should be granted the same portion of rope with which they can hang themselves if they choose.  

I think you have a rational view up to the point where you post something like this:

Quoted Text This time they are calling a Democrat "sexist" because he has to audacity to challenge Pelosi. Unfreaking believable. This is what I'm talking about! The utter madness of the Left. At the drop of pin, anyone can be called sexist or racist.

All you need to do is get rid of the "They" and "utter madness of the left" and pin those allegations specifically to the pundit making the point and then wa-la - we are in agreement. e.g., It's time to look for a replacement for Pelosi and suggesting that doing so is sexist is inane.  When you broad bush, you put one in position of defending an entire movement versus a specific issue making finding common ground more difficult.

And for me - I don't think Trump won because of racist, misogynistic things he said. He won for despite them because he was correct on two core issues: border security (again - not a wall per se - the concept) and trade agreements. Americans with suppressed wages voted with their eyes - they could see shuttered factories, stagnant wages, dilapidated cities and said fuck it - I don't care anymore about the nuances of globalization or immigration - I'm tired of this shit and want it fixed so I'm voting for the dude that promises to fix them regardless of how he feels about Muslims, blacks. women, etc. That is how he beat both the Republicans and the Democrats. He spoke frankly about two core issues. The other thing he had going for him was he was competing with a terrible campaigner in Hillary. I personally think that Bernie or Biden would have cleaned Trump's clock. But of course - just a wild guess.

Again - I am hoping for the best and will judge based on his actions rather than his tweets. Bill Clinton was the best President in my lifetime and I think he treated women worse than Trump - so that is not a litmus test for me. LBJ was a racist who did far more in terms of civil rights legislation then anyone in modern history. So, I will focus on Trump's actions. I am not optimistic - but I am willing to wait and see.

Not all Italians talk with their hands...but it's still valid and useful to say Italians talk with their hands.

Of course there is no such thing as "liberal" or "conservative" in a way that encompasses people all into one box. By generalizations are useful to the degree there is truth in them.

Conservatives mistrust large government(in the US anyway).

Liberals pine for bigger and more government.

These are not universal truths, but close enough.

There has been a range of behavior with this election that can fairly be applied to a broad group. College coddling their students, cutting classes, providing counseling, and playdo, and lowering flags...this is all symptomatic of a general characteristic that has LONG been associated with the Left. When I was in college in the 80s, they hated the American flag. When college kids worked for me in the 2000s, those that were liberal had parents that wouldn't allow the flag on their property.

Leftists are quick to scream racist, or misogynist, or whatever ist empowers their pointing finger. Am I painting broadly? Look at facebook, it's all over the place, and probably with those on your friendlist. It is mine. It's all over those demonstrations everywhere, it's all over the network news, it's in theaters where the VP attends. It's not some isolated incidents. It's part of a broad picture, and it's fair and useful to discuss it that way.

We agree on most of the points. I'm a social liberal, but a libertarian conservative. I was no Trump supporter. I'm sick of exaggerated claims and partisan network news. I'm ok with Fox's bias, but only because it provides much needed balance. Biden would have won, but not Bernie. The country would not have elected someone that radical, old, and naive. Nice guy, though.

Quoted from leitskev Not all Italians talk with their hands...but it's still valid and useful to say Italians talk with their hands. Of course there is no such thing as "liberal" or "conservative" in a way that encompasses people all into one box. By generalizations are useful to the degree there is truth in them. Conservatives mistrust large government(in the US anyway). Liberals pine for bigger and more government. These are not universal truths, but close enough. There has been a range of behavior with this election that can fairly be applied to a broad group. College coddling their students, cutting classes, providing counseling, and playdo, and lowering flags...this is all symptomatic of a general characteristic that has LONG been associated with the Left. When I was in college in the 80s, they hated the American flag. When college kids worked for me in the 2000s, those that were liberal had parents that wouldn't allow the flag on their property. Leftists are quick to scream racist, or misogynist, or whatever ist empowers their pointing finger. Am I painting broadly? Look at facebook, it's all over the place, and probably with those on your friendlist. It is mine. It's all over those demonstrations everywhere, it's all over the network news, it's in theaters where the VP attends. It's not some isolated incidents. It's part of a broad picture, and it's fair and useful to discuss it that way. We agree on most of the points. I'm a social liberal, but a libertarian conservative. I was no Trump supporter. I'm sick of exaggerated claims and partisan network news. I'm ok with Fox's bias, but only because it provides much needed balance. Biden would have won, but not Bernie. The country would not have elected someone that radical, old, and naive. Nice guy, though.

Yes, you are still painting too broadly.

Quoted Text Conservatives mistrust large government(in the US anyway).

Except for the CIA, FBI, NSA, Defense Department, regulations against who you can marry, whether you can smoke pot, have an abortion, stop and frisk, etc. etc, etc. In those any many more cases big government whether it is the size of the budget or the reach of the law are just fine.

Quoted Text Liberals pine for bigger and more government.

Just like conservatives, as a means to an end - not just for the sake of big government. We like bureaucracies, regulations and laws that support the values we hold dear.  

Quoted Text Leftists are quick to scream racist, or misogynist, or whatever ist empowers their pointing finger.

Righties are quick to scream socialists, communist, heathen, etc. etc, or whatever empowers their pointing fingers.

Quoted Text There has been a range of behavior with this election that can fairly be applied to a broad group. College coddling their students, cutting classes, providing counseling, and playdo, and lowering flags...this is all symptomatic of a general characteristic that has LONG been associated with the Left. When I was in college in the 80s, they hated the American flag. When college kids worked for me in the 2000s, those that were liberal had parents that wouldn't allow the flag on their property.

More of the same. Should I associate the Right with the behavior or certain Trump supporters???? What about die fags at military funerals? The Birther movement?  etc. etc.

The point being - for every piece of mud you can slow at the left, there is an equally large and ugly slab of mud that can be thrown at the Right. And at the end of the day when we engage in that practice we never move forward on the issues because we can't see shit from all the mud in our eyes.  

Quoted from leitskev There has been a range of behavior with this election that can fairly be applied to a broad group. College coddling their students, cutting classes, providing counseling, and playdo, and lowering flags...this is all symptomatic of a general characteristic that has LONG been associated with the Left.

Perhaps the increasing corporatization of colleges has led to a "customer is always right" approach to interaction with students, ie., coddling -- an analysis that, to me, wouldn't put the blame solely on the left. My own experience of university (in Canada, though I'm considering U.S. schools) has been that the influence of money is a lot more overt than that of ideology, in the institutional infrastructure. The culture of university, students and faculty, is pretty leftist, for sure. But not so much with the administration, which is the group that is most significantly (unfortunately) shaping education.

On an SS-related note --

The Reagan era coincided with the hands-down peak of the Hollywood action film -- John Rambo, Robocop, John McClane, Riggs and Murtaugh, John Matrix, Harry Callahan, probably some more guys named John...

Is the Trump era gonna mean a whole new slew of all-American tough guy Hollywood heroes, or what?

Trump is apparently too smart to be bothered with Intel briefings. Putin's probably like "Don't worry. Donald. When something comes up I'll give you a call. Until then, just chill baby."

When W took a trip to his ranch, the media never failed to complain about Presidential vacations while there were important issues facing us.

Obama golfed and vacationed more than any President by far...yawn.

It's like this on every issue. If this intel briefing stuff involved a Democrat President, it would be not noticed, and if noticed it would be spun this way: "President seeks a diversity of opinion". We'd hear stories about how many times American intel got it wrong(WMDs, ISIS, Libya, Ukraine). We'd be reminded how the CIA got JFK into the Bay of Pigs.

I visit Politico every day. It's a good representation of the mainstream media. And it now feels like Breitbart over there, only from the other side. CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN...all the same. Every issue related to Trump is given some dark spin.

Much of it is fake news spun with bits of truth.

Middle America is on to this. The regular media is

a) monolithically liberal. There's no balance. The liberal agenda is shoved down everyone's throats whether you agree with it or not. And if you don't agree, you must be one loathsome person. Let's not quibble over just what "liberal" means. There are degrees and shades, but the media is liberal on social and government related issues.

b) this monolithic media is not innocent. There is an element of echo chamber, yes, where people share the same assumptions and beliefs...but it's more than that. There are paid flacks all over the media planting stories. It's not some centralized conspiracy, but there are plenty of groups like those run by Soros that pay reporters to plant and spin. These exact same techniques were used by the Russians.

Quoted Text When W took a trip to his ranch, the media never failed to complain about Presidential vacations while there were important issues facing us. Obama golfed and vacationed more than any President by far...yawn.

Highly inaccurate. Bush has the record and by a long shot.

http://samuel-warde.com/2016/01/hey-conservatives-lets-compare-obama-and-bush-vacations/

Quoted Text It's like this on every issue. If this intel briefing stuff involved a Democrat President, it would be not noticed, and if noticed it would be spun this way: "President seeks a diversity of opinion". We'd hear stories about how many times American intel got it wrong (WMDs, ISIS, Libya, Ukraine). We'd be reminded how the CIA got JFK into the Bay of Pigs.

I do not think they would be praising him/her. I do think their umbrage would be more tempered - tamer.

Quoted Text I visit Politico every day. It's a good representation of the mainstream media. And it now feels like Breitbart over there, only from the other side. CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN...all the same. Every issue related to Trump is given some dark spin.

No - Politico is not a good representation, IMO. I think you are over stating it. I watch all of these. My view:

CBS, ABC, NBC - lean left.

CNN - money whores who lean anyway that can get eyes on their set but certainly would prefer to have villains on the right. Probably - inadvertently as it may be - played a huge part in Trump getting elected. They liked the ratings. Long winded way of saying they are idiots regardless of the issue. I do agree that when they do have serious people, they tend to lean left. More so then the major networks.

MSNBC - Might as well be a part of the Dem party

FOX - runs the GOP

Radio - Right wing propaganda.

Quoted Text Much of it is fake news spun with bits of truth.

I would say it is real news spun with opinion.

Quoted Text Middle America is on to this.

Middle America isn't "on" to anything. They simply voted for the candidate that they thought would best address their needs.

So - I do agree that the mainstream media leans left and there is a degree of hyperbole in rump coverage. However, their are plenty of right leaning outlets for folks to get their information. I do not believe there is a left wing media conspiracy anymore than I believed Hillary's vast right wing conspiracy. I believe folks on both sides need to tap the brakes a bit and wait to see what actual programs and polices come from a Trump presidency.

Quoted from leitskev Middle America is on to this. The regular media is

Yeah, the same Trailer Park Patriots that sought to elect what stephen king so properly referred to as "a motley crew of Plunder Monkeys" this side of The Great Fortune.

Exxon is essentially running foreign police and Goldman the economy.

Hope you enjoy $8 a gallon at the pumps .

on vacations: is the final word on this from a website called Liberals Unite?

"took 879 days of vacation, including 77 trips to his Texas ranch"

Is W moving WH business to his Texas ranch the equivalent of Obama bike riding on Martha's Vineyard? The Bush ranch became more like Camp David...a place where heads of state came to meet Bush.

None of that happened at Martha's Vineyard. Those were pure vacations.

Though his vacations don't bother me. Nor does his constant golfing. I believe the President should be making the big decisions, not slaving over detail.

I'm just talking about a media double standard.

As for the networks, they sometimes make an effort at balance. But you have to understand the effort is only at an appearance of balance. There is not one single non-Democrat in the room where the news is made. CNN would not insist on calling Breitbart "white nationalist" every chance they get if there was one conservative there to point out that Breitbart is not that. Breitbart has sued over that characterization, and if they were actually white nationalist, they would embrace that. I have my issues with Breitbart, and certainly some people will find some of their headlines offensive, but they are no more white nationalist than the average city cop on the beat.

As for $8 gas...come on, can we at least try to understand events? Obama's first energy secretary called for increasing gas to $10 a gallon! Obama said he approved, but it must be done gradually. The ENTIRE liberal establishment is committed to fighting climate change...and the most important strategy called for in that is lowering CO2 emissions. That can only be done through higher prices.

Gas prices came down for one reason: fracking(and similar shale recovery techniques). Those are things most of the Democrats, and all liberals, oppose. We had cheap energy under Obama only because fracking, which had been under development for years, finally came to fruition during his administration. It had nothing to do with him. Nada, zip, zero. If it would not have harmedd him and the Dems politically, he would have done more to stop fracking and increase carbon taxes, all with the goal of raising the price,

There are things Obama did well, and things he didn't. Same will be true for Trump. Let's at least keep our feet grounded in what is really true and isn't.

Quoted from leitskev CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN...all the same...

Indeed.  But when every "reputable" news agency except Fox is telling you the exact same thing -- give me credit for the quotation marks   -- and then Fox gleefully serves as the only safe-space for Trump to spout off unchallenged -- I think you need to call that what it is.

It is not "balance" -- it is propaganda.

And with all the uproarious discussions today -- and I will not address their real or imagined veracity -- what are the top stories on Fox?

The "look over here" tweet about the F-35, and the "irrational" Green Party recount.

Nary a peep on today's top news driver.  I contend that Fox is not news.  It is entertainment for the choir.

Actually, I think it's fair to bring up Fox News.

I would begin by asking you to imagine the state of affairs without Fox. The way things were before, when literally every single headline and story came through a liberal filter.

Now back to Fox: Fox is the necessary balance that tries to counter ABC, PBS, NBC, CNN, Wapo, NYT, and all of the local networks.

It would be unhealthy if all we had was Fox News and similar. But Fox plays an essential role in balancing what the other networks do more slyly, which is to push an agenda.

Everything on there right now is in the news. Russian hacking, the Taiwan phone call, the silly vote recount.

I mean no one questions that Fox has a conservative agenda. Have you ever met a conservative who questions that?

Have you ever met a liberal who accepts that the regular media has a progressive agenda? I have followed CNN closely since the election(I follow CNN anyway), and the anti-Trump agenda is stunning. I turned it on during lunch yesterday and 2 guests were calling for the election to be done over! The very same people who hammered Trump for weeks for questioning the election now want pointless recounts(an attempt to prevent those states from voting in the electoral college) and they are saying this election is illegit because of Putin. Man, I guess they say double standards are better than no standards(this remark is directed at CNN)

Quoted Text on vacations: is the final word on this from a website called Liberals Unite? "took 879 days of vacation, including 77 trips to his Texas ranch" Is W moving WH business to his Texas ranch the equivalent of Obama bike riding on Martha's Vineyard? The Bush ranch became more like Camp David...a place where heads of state came to meet Bush. None of that happened at Martha's Vineyard. Those were pure vacations. Though his vacations don't bother me. Nor does his constant golfing. I believe the President should be making the big decisions, not slaving over detail. I'm just talking about a media double standard.

There are a zillion sites where you can find this info. Your assertion was factually incorrect and I was just pointing that. Like you - I don't care. Eisenhower golfed more rounds than any other president my a long shot - thought he was a good President regardless.  

Quoted Text As for the networks, they sometimes make an effort at balance. But you have to understand the effort is only at an appearance of balance. There is not one single non-Democrat in the room where the news is made. CNN would not insist on calling Breitbart "white nationalist" every chance they get if there was one conservative there to point out that Breitbart is not that. Breitbart has sued over that characterization, and if they were actually white nationalist, they would embrace that. I have my issues with Breitbart, and certainly some people will find some of their headlines offensive, but they are no more white nationalist than the average city cop on the beat.

The networks do lean left - not as egregiously as you think - but they do. They mostly lean ratings. With FOX and MSNBC being two exceptions - both are tragedies in terms of journalism.

And every time you start a sentence with - what is wrong with liberals - or "what liberals think." it makes me cringe. IT does not further discussion. It retards it.