Quoted from Grandma Bear Back to the damned shoes I disagree GM. It would simply be shown as not spiffy new shiny shoes, but scuffed and maybe not fitting perfectly... at least to me.

It's a tux, when you rent shoes for a tux you rent shiny shoes. One line of action actually says "shiny rented shoes". Besides, scuffed shoes do not usually mean rented shoes, I have some old tattered shoes that I love to wear and certainly are not rented.

I can't believe the shoe conversation is still going on, but I would have thought this would have been a simple case of everyone understanding this is certainly telling us something (three times!) that cannot be seen on screen and an example of fairly poor screenwriting craft/

Quoted from Dreamscale Shelton...that's like 10 posts on the "rented shoes" now!!!!!

Yeah, ten posts over four words in a 107 page script.  What's the point, really?  Do you think those words didn't help the costume designer?

Maybe you are right there GM. However... I still don't think the shoe thing is something that would win a producer over nor deter them from wanting to shoot the film...

In a way Shelton and Pia are right in that what does it matter? But you have to ask why then if they do not matter did the writer feel it important enough to tell us 3-4 times?

I don't really care about the shoes, apart from the bad writing. I am using it as an example of my major issue with this script and that is weak characters, I mean do I care that this guy wears rented shoes? I know nothing else about him. Who is he? Why does it matter? What if anything was the writer attempting to say about him?

I think that considering he had 13 pages of character development before the knock on the door (inciting incident) that we learned nothing about our character apart from the fact she has knocked back his proposal and his parents live in the middle of nowhere.

If these characters had been properly developed then maybe the fact he rents his tux and shoes would actually mean something.

[quote=me]Maybe you are right there GM. However... I still don't think the shoe thing is something that would win a producer over nor deter them from wanting to shoot the film...[/quote

This is an example....to me at least...of a very novice writer.  Giles and I are right in what we're saying.  There's no doubting that...is there?

To me, it's just something that sings out (once again) that mistakes of this kind are obviously more than acceptable...but why?  Is there really anything in this script that is original...exciting...terrifying...compelling...different?  I don't think so.  Is it so well written that it immediately jumps off the page at you?  And that's coming from a guy that saw the flick at the theater, thought it was well done and "good" overall, and even used it in back and forth in here many times, because of its success.

Back to first impression...it's not at all well done or polished at all.  Smells like total amateur to me (and yes, that's coming from a total amateur!).

Quoted from Dreamscale   Is it so well written that it immediately jumps off the page at you?

No, it isn't, but not very much does.  I sit back, read a script, and if I like it, I like it.  If I don't I don't.  This one falls into the latter, as well as the finished film.  I will mention that while this script is 107 pages, the film was only 85 minutes, including credits.  I'll bet a lot got cut out.

My point is that people need to stop being so goddamned analytical about things.  What everyone assumes matters, and what actually does are vastly different.

Quoted from Murphy Not talking about the film Sandra, the script just says "rented shoes". A classic of example of telling and not showing.

It is, but this was a decision that the writer made and I don't think it was an accident at all, but deliberate.

If the reader picks up on something that's subtle enough, but overt enough to be mentioned 3 times, then they're going to enjoy the irony itself.

What I'd like to know, was what did the basket ball hoop symbolize?

Sandra

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. What I'd like to know, was what did the basket ball hoop symbolize?

The miracle of birth.

Quoted from Shelton My point is that people need to stop being so goddamned analytical about things.  What everyone assumes matters, and what actually does are vastly different.

I really agree with this statement. Well, the second sentence actually. I don't think there's anything wrong with being analytical. I think it's extremely interesting actually and I learn at another level entirely when I go below the water's surface.

But the fact remains that truth in what sells and what people pick bones over in scripts is vastly different.

For myself, when I write, I do it for the intangibles that are inside of the external reality we see and feel and process. The best writing has something "else" inside of it that is besides the devices, the rules/or not as the case may be.

I think the writer was touching on these levels with the "borrowed" theme. Now I'm curious if any of this came through in the movie.

Sandra

I thought the length of the script was way longer than it needed to be too. I was very surprised at the page amount especially since the film wasn't that long.

What I would like to find out though is why this script ended up in the top 300 out of 7000 scripts submitted. Was the rest of the scripts really that bad???

Ahhh, thank you Sandra, another of my issues that I noted...

Bertino used the words "basketball goal", which, by the way, is far from an ordinary description of a basketball hoop, or whatever you want to call it.  Again, he did this more than 3 times, and I thought it was so odd...and wrong.

It represented nothing, and was improperly labeled, yet, for Sandra (at least), it meant something.  Crazy!

Shelton, why should we be so God Damned less analytical?  When it comes to reviews of our own scripts, people are insanely analytical...as they should be.  C'mon.

What do you mean by that?  Let's pick this thing apart...both positive and negative...see what works, and what doesn't work.  I think we've already proven that at least 2 things that are technically incorrect, have worked for several people, just based on a read only basis, cause they'd never know what they're getting from the read.

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. I think the writer was touching on these levels with the "borrowed" theme. Now I'm curious if any of this came through in the movie.

Not at all, I just think the writer was trying to be clever and instead of just saying "shoes" said "rented shoes" and by mistake repeated it 3 times.

Maybe the basketball hoop was to remind us that James grew up in this house and had fond memories of it. Or maybe the writer just happened to live next door to a house with a hoop and decided to stick it in his script.

If the writer really was going for some symbolism then it missed the mark completely and is wasted on such a one-dimensional character like James. I actually do not believe that there is any symbolism here at all, I think he just wrote stuff and there is nothing more to it.

Probably should move on from the shiny rented shoes now but I disagree that is was unimportant, Not maybe the shoes themselves but as an example of clinical and an uninteresting writing style they served a purpose in the discussion.

I think a lot of things didn't come through in the movie.  Especially concerning the masked people.  In the script, the masked people have depth.  In the movie they don't.  If a came away with anything from this script it was a better understanding of the masked people.  Too bad 99% of the people who watch this movie won't be reading the script and won't have this added understanding.

Quoted from Dreamscale Ahhh, thank you Sandra, another of my issues that I noted... Bertino used the words "basketball goal", which, by the way, is far from an ordinary description of a basketball hoop, or whatever you want to call it.  Again, he did this more than 3 times, and I thought it was so odd...and wrong. It represented nothing, and was improperly labeled, yet, for Sandra (at least), it meant something.  Crazy! Shelton, why should we be so God Damned less analytical?  When it comes to reviews of our own scripts, people are insanely analytical...as they should be.  C'mon. What do you mean by that?  Let's pick this thing apart...both positive and negative...see what works, and what doesn't work.  I think we've already proven that at least 2 things that are technically incorrect, have worked for several people, just based on a read only basis, cause they'd never know what they're getting from the read.

Ok, now a pile of posts on a basket ball goal/hoop thingy. It has to mean something or he wouldn't have written it in.

How about? Life is a game. Or rust isn't a good sign.  

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale Shelton, why should we be so God Damned less analytical?  When it comes to reviews of our own scripts, people are insanely analytical...as they should be.  C'mon. What do you mean by that?  Let's pick this thing apart...both positive and negative...see what works, and what doesn't work.  I think we've already proven that at least 2 things that are technically incorrect, have worked for several people, just based on a read only basis, cause they'd never know what they're getting from the read.

What I mean by that is that the "rented shoes" and "basketball goal" being referenced in the script have nothing to do with whether it worked or not. It didn't have anything to do with the finished film, and frankly, it sucked.

Would showcasing those shoes and goal make me think otherwise?  Probably not.

Is the story engaging? Not really.  Are people wondering why the reasoning behind Kristen turning James down wasn't revealed?  Yes.  Was it necessary to show that?  No.  It was fairly obvious in my mind.

It's things like that we should be discussing.