Quoted Text Re:  Characer depth...I can't stress this enough: buy some screenwriting books.  I really suggest Lew Hunter and Syd Field.-I picked up “the foundations of screenwriting.”

Any other specific titles?  Prob order some off amazon today.

Quoted Text Re:  Jurassic Park.  No problem!  I love homages.  There are many in my writing.  I was just pointing it out.  I think it's a good choice, and I'd leave it in.

-cool…I’m nervous about it…don’t want people to think I’m ripping it off

Quoted Text Page 45:  How is the cross feminine?

-you know I don’t know…I think that would be the director/costume people job though?  

Quoted Text I'm gonna go off on a tangent here.  The main reason that your characters don't work well is that we don't know enough about them.  Every line, every little action, should be perfectly in a character, and it's not.  Once I've read this much of a script, I should know exactly how each person would react to a given situation.  I have no idea for any of them at this point.  What I would do is write up a really detailed past for each character...really get to know them like they were your best friend.  They should be almost a living entity, and when you throw a situation at them, you know them so well that it's like you're just copying down how they react, because you know there's only one way they would react.  If you can really feel your characters' fears, joys, and hopes, then the audience will too.  I wanna know them inside out.  I want to be able to make guesses about what Cindy's parents and childhood were like.

-hmmm…are we talking a total overhaul of dialogue/action?  Or are certain things each character do out o fplace?

Quoted Text The second thing here is that you haven't really given them much reason to like each other.  Sure, they've all helped each other, but it's almost been out of necessity.  I would give them a gettin'-to-know-you early on in the script so that they really are drawn together.  You have the situations there, danger that should bring them together, but it's not quite there.  I'd up the danger stakes on them a bit so that they really have to band together, work together, and learn to trust each other.

-I’ve played around with the idea of having them all sit at a table eating…asking each other who they were before the collapse…and talk about there past…but people have said that suck…maybe if I have them work together more to overcome the danger I could create that….

Quoted Text I don't think anyone in this script questions anything enough.  A huge crisis like this would leave 99% of the population scared and confused with no idea what to do.  Everything seems so matter of fact with Harris, Cindy, and Jack, and that just doesn't seem believeable.  I think that all you need is once scene where somebody...even two of them...just break down.  Then another tells them to pull together and remember the procedures they've planned.  I think you suffer from Sum of all Fears-itis...a nuclear bomb explodes and nobody bats an eye.  If your protagonists are more scared and less sure of themselves they will subsequently seem more human to the audience and more appealing as central characters.  Take a serious look at how much happened in the short time since they got on the sub with Harris, and then think about how you'd feel having to deal with even one of those things.

-If I could get you to go just a little bit farther…we think alike re: this issue however our timing is different.  Lemme know if you think it works.

Quoted Text Page 58:  I'd cut Stew's quote.  Too many quotes from too many different people...and quotes are something that get old fast.  Although you know what I'd really love to see someone say?  "The treaty of liberty must be refreshed from time to time..."  Hee hee.

-My buddy said the same thing about the quote…it’s the straw that breaks the camels back apparently…time to cut it.

Quoted Text Page 60:  An EMP...dart?  How does that work?  Speaking of which, why doesn't it work? Page 61:  Oh, I see why it doesn't work.  But that's just stupid.  Noone would engineer it that way...great writing here though, by the way.  Still...gotta change it...it's too much of a stretch.

-time for me to explain something in hopes that if I do you can tell me what the script is lacking.  EMP (electo-magnetic pulse) is the thing from 24 that permanently shuts off all electronic devices.  The only way for it to work is on a timer because it shuts off car engines that are electronic…and thus the bike engines.  So the EMP would’ve had to be on a timer to allow the bike enough time to escape…I tried to show it in Cindy’s mumbling…Originally I wrote that the helicopter explodes immediately but thought…that wouldn’t make sense…then the bikes wouldn’t turn on.

Again thanks for the input…20 more pages to rewrite with some great ideas!  Thanks

PS:  Any thoughts on the logline?

I'll think about the logline and get back to you...

Re:  EMP, I do know what EMP is, but consider this:  were they developed specifically for use with the bikes?  If so, it's fair to put them on a timer.  Otherwise, for maximum efficiency in any situation, it would be best to have them on a much shorter timer.  The most extreme situation they could be used in would be, say for example, a CSU comes around a corner fifteen feet in front of you and you have nowhere to go.  You wouldn't want a twenty second timer, even if you do lose your bike.

I see where your coming from...(thinking)  Jack and Cindy don't know what these CSUs are, so the weapon wasn't specially built for the machine...I'm going to go with the EMP was designed for use with the bikes...

Working on that premise...20 seconds is a plausible amount of time to get away from a truck or helicopter if one was on a railbike...do you disagree?

Oh I put my review up on the first 20 pages of Marigold...hope it's what your looking for.  

(we must both have very boring jobs-or maybe I just do...haha)

It doesn't make sense with a helicopter anyway.  There's no reason that the helicopter should be any further away from them after 20 seconds than it was at the time that the dart was fired, since both the bike and the helicopter are moving objects.  Same goes for any sort of car or other transportation device - anything that would be chasing the bike.

For screenwriting books, I really just want to recommend anything by Syd Field again.  The guy is unbelievably helpful.  One little thing I noticed in a book of his I was reading yesterday was "You should make sure that the audience learns things at the same time as your protagonist."  That's what I was trying to say about the paralysis serum.  Since your audience at this point is reading the script, you have to watch that your description doesn't reveal things that the audience doesn't know...unless it's intentional dramatic irony, of course.

Page 62:  "If those CSU's use their deadly forces on us, there'll be no surviving.  If it wants, it can be a lethal fucker."  These two sentences say pretty much the exact same thing.  I'd keep the second one.
I'm not sure exactly how EMP works...perhaps you know far better than I.  But I don't believe that the CSU would be able to detect the threat of an EMP before the device actually activated, would it?

Page 63:  "They hunt in packs.  There'll be more."  This is the wrong characteristic to give the CSUs, I think.  Besides, it's another situation where you have two sentences saying pretty much the same thing.

Page 64:  If Stew is carrying Murphy, then how does he take anything out of his pack?
Again, I don't know exactly how EMPs work, but wouldn't it be mildly unpleasant to have one go off in your hand?  Great action sequence here though.  I don't think you describe it to its full potential, actually.  Make things seem more desperate...maybe the CSU is just about to lock on to Stew when the EMP goes off?  Maybe even it's already hit Stew in the leg and he's lying helpless?  In fact, it could have hit Stew in the leg, he'd be lying helpless, he shows Murphy how to use the CSU, and the second CSU could be just rounding a corner, towering over him to finish him off, when Murphy explodes the EMP.  Sorry though, I'm just rambling.  Ramble on...!

Page 65:  Stew falls to the ground dead?  That's it?  It seems like a total non-event...keep the element of surprise, but give a bit of description of the death so that producers can really say, wow, you know, this could be a great little death scene, emotionally charged, and so on.
Murphy grabs C4 and wraps it around a grenade?  Where is he getting all this stuff?  Just seems like this b ag of stuff is a little too handy.

Page 67:  Cindy would probably just call him Doc...or Hulse.
Just a random idea...setting up the whole harness system is fairly boring screen time.  What if it was something like this:

TEAM SATUS MEMBER 3
How are twelve of us going to fit on two bikes?

Jack smiles.

EXT. RAILTRACKS FIRST CHECKPOINT - LATER

The Satus members are now strapped into (describe the harness system).  They look mildly uncomfortable.

DOC HULSE
You sure about this?

I dunno, something like that.  To get through it quicker.

Page 69:  Umm...that was easy.  Too easy.  Far too easy!

Page 70:  The train, um, crushes both helicopters?  What if the explosion sends one out of control and it crashes, and the tip of the train as it flies through the air catches the other one and pulls it down.  IT should be a little more complex...take some time describing this explosion, because it could be great.

Page 71:  "The boy (from first scene)"...why don't you just give him a name?  That'd be easier.
I guess the mother didn't have anything to say, either good or bad, when Murphy picked up her child.  There's an opportunity for a nice moment here...she could look up at him with sad eyes and thank him for what he's done.  Something like that.

Page 72:  GREAT setup for an action scene.  Can't wait to see how this plays out.
Here's a nifty little trick - for things like driving sequences, did you know you can state the location as:

I/E. TRANSPORT - DAY?

That means you don't have to constantly change from INT. to EXT. and everything reads a lot faster.

Page 73:  "The kid looks twelve".  You said he was 16.

Page 75:  Hold on.  Is this teenage girl holding the weight of herself and Murphy by her arms?
Now she's got him by the boot?  This is one strong teen girl!  For purposes of realism, I'd replace her with a young man.  That's who Murphy would look to for help anyway...he's a Marine!

Page 76:  "He limps around as if he wasn't even shot."  Huh?

Page 77:  Hold on so the helicopter's flying backwards right now at about 60 MPH?
Okay, you're gonna have to describe this transport.  I wasn't expecting it to be able to reverse over two jeeps.  I was thinking...the SWAT van from T2.  
...why would the helicopter land?  By the way, that was Murphy's chance to plow the thing and destroy it.  It shouldn't land.

Page 78:  You're stretching my believability here.  That's some darn good throwing and some darn good shooting...while moving at high speeds...while being shot at.  
Don't say "Murphy forgot to reload."  Say, "The gun clicks empty".  
If the transport is tough enough to drive over jeeps, why don't they just ram the damn copter?

Page 79:  Why is there mesh on top of the transport?

Whew!  What an action sequence!  That was some great stuff...but, honestly, the helicopter hovering doesn't work for me.

More later.

thanks for the comments...I just got back from a trip so I haven't had much time to do any more on Marigold, I hope to get to it on Tuesday...

As I read i must've said "good point out loud" 8 times...

I/E wasn't aware you do that..I will def. take advantage of it.  

I'll respond in full later

Just a suggestion...

You might check out episode two of Bert's Starbuck Starr.  It has a chase scene which is put together brilliantly in terms of description and format.  

Heretic

Re: screenwriting books: thanks for the suggestion, I see what your saying...I took Field's advice and wrote up some character histories...I've gone through and asked myself, does this push the story along or show some "interior" history of the character...I've found myself making some meaningful changes.

re emp: I took artistic license...bascially I made up a fictitious weapon...

"Page 63:  "They hunt in packs.  There'll be more."  This is the wrong characteristic to give the CSUs, I think."

-Why do you think?

Page 65:  Stew falls to the ground dead?   That's it?  It seems like a total non-event

-good point

"Murphy grabs C4 and wraps it around a grenade?  Where is he getting all this stuff?  Just seems like this b ag of stuff is a little too handy."

-oh...you didn't know...it's Mary Poppin's Bag...endless...j/k I'll have to explain/working that out.

'Just a random idea...setting up the whole harness system is fairly boring screen time.  What if it was something like this:"
-didn't even think of that...I got so wrapped up trying to come up with how it work I didnt even stop to think...ummm boring!  good idea.

Page 69:  Umm...that was easy.  Too easy.  Far too easy!
-sorry, please explain?

Page 70:  The train, um, crushes both helicopters?  What if the explosion sends one out of control and it crashes, and the tip of the train as it flies through the air catches the other one and pulls it down.  IT should be a little more complex...take some time describing this explosion, because it could be great.
-thanks good idea...def needs to be expounded.

Page 71:  "The boy (from first scene)"...why don't you just give him a name?  That'd be easier.
-that would make things easier.

Page 76:  "He limps around as if he wasn't even shot."  Huh?
-yeah...ummm...I dunno either.

Page 77:  Hold on so the helicopter's flying backwards right now at about 60 MPH?
Okay, you're gonna have to describe this transport.  I wasn't expecting it to be able to reverse over two jeeps.  

-that was cop out...gotta change it.  I thought it be cool but, it won't work with how the transport interacts with helicopter and that's my favorite part.

Page 78:  You're stretching my believability here.  That's some darn good throwing and some darn good shooting...while moving at high speeds...while being shot at.  

-that was intentional...I wanted people to be like...ugh! classic action movie...then head fake NO RELOAD!  Does it work?

Jaykur

I think of the CSUs as mindless drones.  They respond with equal force...they're like the Borg.

"Hunt in packs" makes me think...intelligent, plan things, work as a team...a thinking individual that realizes the benefit of a group effort.  It bestows too much consciousness on them, I think.  They're scarier (to me) if they're just sort of faceless and mindless, and would as soon kill you as help you cross the street.  

Alright it looks like every review before nailed the problems. One thing is the CSU, you can describe what it looks like on paper, but things such as alternate fire showed be shown  to the audience. They won't know that stuff from the description you gave.

My best advice is to read a lot of scripts. The way you write makes it very confusing and vague. You'll give too many descriptions where not needed. (THE BEginning battle)

Such as the beginning fight:
I have trouble believing that a bunch of young, marines would be ready to lay down their lives slaughtering their own people. They're weren't a ton of marines from the sounds of it. Not all people in the military are brain washed, gung ho soldier boys. You also decribed them so much only to have them trampeled a line down.

In addition I don't think a commander would really give a speach to all his men letting them know that they dont have enough ammunition to silence the crowd and after it all the marines still be pumped.

A lot of your characters go off in monologues. I found it to get very tetious and at times I felt like I was getting a civics lesson.
You have the idea to present a shocking vision of the future here. You can put your polictical views in it. But many times your very abprut about. Your characters are speaking their political views. But the way you reveal things is very plain.

An example of an interesting way to show how you believe things is wrong in the our governtment is Good Night and Good Luck. Clooney took history that could easily mirror our present day situation (depending on how you look at it).

thanks for the read Tony...I appreciate your feedback...just for reference did you read the most recent script or the original?

"The way I write is confusing and vague:" please explain...is it the way I describe action?  Is there a specific example  you'd like me to check out so I can emulate it.  I 've read lethal weapon, and die hard, I didn't think my descriptions were too far different from theres, I'm not saying I'm as good, but I didn't know I was being confusing or vague and would like to fix it.

As to the civcs lesson (sociology but that's doesnt matter), my goal is to give a short one during the classroom scene, just to be sure the audience understands the premise on which my screenplay is based.  

Re; political views, could you expound?  I'd really like an example of the abrupt political views I inserted because those were never my intention.   Whether or not I'm a republican/democrat, I hope is unclear from the writing.  

I'll have to see Good night and Good luck thanks for the suggestion.

I read the original version, I'll try and reread it but I've been so freaking busy sorry if I don't for a little while.

My wording was poor when I gave you feedback I apologize. What I meant by confusing and vague was many of the things didn't make sense in the original. I remember one line about the main characters leaving the white house and then a chinese helicopter is heard coming. This is very nitpicky of me but the audience wouldn't know what countries helicopter was it was. At the time I read it I probably could think of more examples.

Like I said I have to go back and reread it since you said you did revisions.

I actually thought it was a very intelligent idea putting a classroom scene in. And I enjoyed how you talked about marxism.

Regardless of my political views or yours claiming Michael Moore fabricates documentaries is a little blunt. I did laugh. Thinking about it again I think it's a fine comment.

I'll be sure to reread your script since it's been over a few weeks and now I cannot even support my arguements.

I'll try to send them in  sooner this time....

Page 82:  I don't think the thing with the pilot having low gas is necessary.  I think it's cooler without that little bit, actually.

Page 83:  I think the fighting between the two pilots is a little unnecessary.  For one thing, it's best if the Chinese pilot dies when he hits the plane, because that makes the American pilot cooler.  For another, the audience has no stake in that particular fight since they don't know the characters.  I'd cut it.

Page 84:  Murphy saying simply, "He's dead" has a lot more power than "...shot by a CSU."  It's short and sweet.  

Page 85:  "Jack looks incredibly sad..."  I'd say that's kinda weak description.  What if he looked crushed or devastated.

Because we're moving into what looks like the third act, I'm going to stop here, because I won't be able to finish tonight.  I'll read the entire third act tomorrow.

thanks.

Hello All

I've rewritten this a couple times, the newest version is posted, I've also rewritten the logline:

FOREFATHERS; an action-thriller about American economic collapse, and Lieutenant Colonel Walter Murphy’s struggle to hold together the pieces of our once great nation.

The catastrophe did not come from above or below, it came from within.  American citizens have taken to the streets in the most violent riots this country has ever experienced.  Sensing weakness, foreign militaries begin to test the dying empire’s fraying borders.  Murphy must protect two members of Team Satus, a top secret government organization charged with the task of securing and reconstructing American infrastructure, if our nation is to have any chance at survival.

If you'd like to do a script exchange, I'd gladly read your stuff in return.  Please just let me know what you'd like me to check out.

Page 99:  Murphy "roles" over.  Easy mistake to make.
The Cindy/Murphy exchange is great!

Page 101:  Oh good, sarin gas!  However, as I understand it, sarin gas is a weapon that is usually used by terrorists, perhaps because it is relatively easy to make?  Either way, I don't think the US government uses it.  Would probably be...well, I'm not sure.

Page 102:  I don't get what you're going for with the phone ringing and Harris hanging it up.

Page 105:  Can you intern at a prison?

Page 107:  Hahah.  I think you can just say in the action that Cindy translates the question.  No need to have her speak gibberish.

Page 109:  This scene isn't going to work with Cindy translating the whole thing.  I think it should turn out that he can speak English, which is also good because he's already tried to deceive them once.
To me, this is too much.  I have much more sympathy for the soldier in this scene than for Murphy.  I think he should probably just point his gun at his crotch.

Page 110:  Yeah, this whole thing is far too mean-spirited.  Doesn't fit into the tone of the film, if you ask me.

Page 115:  The Saudi soldier pulls a fire alarm.  Shouldn't a missile silo like this have a better warning system?
Whoa whoa.  The description of the jets nearly shooting them is way too short.  This is a perfect place for some buildup...will they make it or won't they kind of thing.  This all just seems too abrupt...like you know exactly what you want so you're rushing through it.

Page 117:  Yeah.  You're really rushing through all this stuff.  Sometimes there are four ideas in one sentence.  Slow it down - give us a clearer picture.

Page 119:  This was all for "naught", not "not".  

Page 120:  "The classic slow clap"...I wouldn't describe it this way.  Leave out classic.  Seems...I dunno, unprofessional.

Umm...Murphy's wife?  Too much.  Way too much, in my opinion.  And unnecessary.  Murphy's character is such that he can end the same way he started.  I think so, anyway.

I think there are problems with the third act.  The stakes aren't nearly high enough.  They basically have no problem getting into the silo, and from there, it's a simple matter of browbeating two poor Saudi's (and killing one of them) before killing millions of innocent Asian civilians.  I mean, do they have to shoot missiles into the city?  That's far worse than anything that any of the bad guys have done, as far as I can tell.  I don't know.  I think character sympathy goes out the window the second that Murphy shoots the soldier in the crotch, and disappears forever.  Sure, they're happy at the end, but they did just nuke a ton of civilians.

The last ten pages were great, I thought.  The climactic speech was different from what I was expecting for this story, but it works perfectly, along with the twist.  I thought all that stuff was great (until Murphy's wife showed up).

But yeah.  Really, I just think there needs to be a ton more buildup to the launching of the missiles.  I think we should see the ships approaching American soil, and I think we should have Murphy, Jack, and Cindy get split up and be engaged in gunfights, barely making it in time to launch the missiles.  Maybe a scene where the Chinese ships destroy an American vessel on the American borders.

I'll mull it over in my mind and post again soon.