I have to admit, I haven't been too pleased with the feedback so far.  I really think people should take a step back, outline what they want to say, and then write it in a very educated manner.  Burning these things out is clearly no way to go.

I propose that every script should be read and then contemplated for no less than 16 days before feedback is posted.

Thank you.

Shelton, that was just shit. Really, really awful. The worst post I have read today, just boring.

Quoted from Murphy Shelton, that was just shit. Really, really awful. The worst post I have read today, just boring.

I hate your stupid face and lilty voice.

Yeah? And how long do you last in Bed then? Hey? hey?

I don't see the point in this thread.  Terrible.  Terribly boring.  Shelton, your grammar sucks, and you live in a black and white world.

See you in 16 days.

This thread is just awful, really awful...terribly boring, this thread is missing so many things.....like a point, just a waste of time.

Quoted from Murphy Yeah? And how long do you last in Bed then? Hey? hey?

Enough to make two kids, virgin wool.

Shelton, you're a s*** poster!

Quoted from The boy who could fly This thread is just awful, really awful...terribly boring, this thread is missing so many things.....like a point, just a waste of time.

The point is behind the point that you've missed.  Have you ever walked down the street and seen a little person, and thought to yourself "Hey, there's a little person" and then kept right on walking, only to find a used hairbrush in the street and say "Hey, there's a used hairbrush"?

It's kind of like that, only when it's all said and done, you try to make a giant weapon that harnesses the sun to blow things up, much like Archimedes.

It may not make the most sense in the world, but it deserves more than some shitty, tossed off response.

Absorb...post.

And that's... one to grow on.

Quoted from Shelton   Have you ever walked down the street and seen a little person, and thought to yourself "Hey, there's a little person"

I LOVE MIDGETS...they are my favorite.....i plan on getting one...they're so cute, i'd give him a stool to spin around on and a big beach ball to see if he can grip onto it with his tiny sausage fingers....so ya...I LOVE MIDGETS!

Quoted from steven8 Shelton, you're a s*** poster!

You wanna take another crack at that one, cowboy?  This thread exists for no other reason than to respond to inane nonsense like you just posted.

Absorb... post.

It can change your life.

Still want me to read your script?

Quoted from Shelton This one's a winner.

This is your one post so far in the OWC.  How much absorbency is involved here?  :)

Okey-dokey.  Kidding over.  Just joking, your cowboy-ness.  Feel free to expunge my junk.

No one has to read my script who doesn't want to.

Quoted from steven8 This is your one post so far in the OWC.  How much absorbency is involved here?  :)

A lot, which you would have realized if you could detect sarcasm.  Would you prefer I bash every script without really commenting on the script itself like your butt buddy?

Quoted from Shelton like your butt buddy?

Quoted from Shelton A lot, which you would have realized if you could detect sarcasm.  Would you prefer I bash every script without really commenting on the script itself like your butt buddy?

Not my buddy, that's for sure!  My posts in the OWC have been positive points about the scripts I've read.  The last thing we need to do is just rip people up without thinking.

I didn't mean to hijack your thread in any way.  I guess I was just letting off some steam about what I've been reading in the OWC.

Quoted from steven8 I didn't mean to hijack your thread in any way.  I guess I was just letting off some steam about what I've been reading in the OWC.

This thread is all about hijacking.  I want to keep things away from script threads.

Can I review OWC scripts in texting-speak?  Because if I don't have to bother to put any thought into anything I might as well be terse.  

Just wanted to CMAP.

! TISC KUTGW.

Quoted from Lakewood Can I review OWC scripts in texting-speak?

Only if you call it by it's proper name of l33tspeak.  If you don't, everyone will think that you're just a 45 year old man with no prospects living in a hotel.

I liked it.

Quoted from Shelton I have to admit, I haven't been too pleased with the feedback so far.  I really think people should take a step back, outline what they want to say, and then write it in a very educated manner.  Burning these things out is clearly no way to go. I propose that every script should be read and then contemplated for no less than 16 days before feedback is posted. Thank you.

LOL! oh... you're serious  ;D

K, I read through this thread.

Shelton, I disagree. My story had issues, people said so and I could see their points. If we're being asked to critique a script would you prefer if we sang its praises without mentioning its weaknesses?

It was my first time posting a script here and if I had to wait 16 days for a response I wouldn't bother. I try to go through all the scripts as deference is due to all the participants. I also use honesty because that's what I want in return.

Quoted from JamminGirl K, I read through this thread. Shelton, I disagree. My story had issues, people said so and I could see their points. If we're being asked to critique a script would you prefer if we sang its praises without mentioning its weaknesses? It was my first time posting a script here and if I had to wait 16 days for a response I wouldn't bother. I try to go through all the scripts as deference is due to all the participants. I also use honesty because that's what I want in return.

But surely you would agree that there are times when things just aren't serious, and your best bet is to take a nice tidy nap on a bed of circus peanuts.  Did you know that they expand to four times their size when put in the microwave?  Now you do.

What if I were to lower my suggestion to 8 days and 2.12 hours?  That's nearly half.  Or what if everyone just told me to go screw myself and left feedback anyway?  Or didn't tell me to go screw myself and left feedback anyway?  I think I'd much prefer the latter, as it would be unkind for someone to tell me to go screw myself, and even more unkind if they told me to go screw myself on a bed of circus peanuts.  Did you know that they expand to four times their size...

Quoted from JamminGirl I try to go through all the scripts as deference is due to all the participants. I also use honesty because that's what I want in return.

Quoted from JamminGirl Sorry, I wont read  this any further.

Is it what you want in return?

ah well... 'tever dude. Leave a comment on my script thread.

I read most of your comments. You seem very bitter and very overbearing for a newbie.

michel, sorry 'bout that but plagiarism and regurgitation bug me. They really do.

If it will make you feel better, I'll read it through. I don't promise to be anything else but honest though.

Quoted from JamminGirl plagiarism and regurgitation bug me. They really do.

You shouldn't go that much see movies. They're full of it, even from great screenwriters. Rather call that "tribute". I would be very proud to be plagiarized (even if I'm not a great screenwriter)

Quoted from michel You shouldn't go that much see movies. They're full of it, even from great screenwriters. Rather call that "tribute". I would be very proud to be plagiarized (even if I'm not a great screenwriter)

Ok, I get it. Honesty is not especially preferred.

Have you read "Taxi Driver"? "Kramer vs Kramer", "Ordinary People" or even "Knocked up"? Those writers went with real situations and real characters. They drew from life instead of "paying tribute".
You're a new writer. You have experienced the world. Your perspective is unique. Trust it. Trust yourself and infuse your writing with your life.
First-time writers like the Canadian women who wrote "Juno" and "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" did that and met with amazing success.

So can you.

Quoted from JamminGirl Honesty is not especially preferred.

Honesty has nothing to do with aggressiveness.

Quoted from JamminGirl You're a new writer.

I'm not.

Quoted from JamminGirl You have experienced the world. Trust yourself and infuse your writing with your life.

I do

Michel, Feel free to rip through my script, guns ablazin'.  

Quoted from JamminGirl Michel, Feel free to rip through my script, guns ablazin'.

If only he knew which one, though.








Everyone should be honest. You have the choice whether or not you want to sound like a bitch when writing your review.

Sean

Quoted from Grandma Bear It is still possible to be nice and encouraging to a writer when reviewing and still point out what needs fixing or doesn't work.

Thank you Pia

Quoted from Shelton and your best bet is to take a nice tidy nap on a bed of circus peanuts.

Are you trying to give me salmonella again, Shelton?  In my napping place?

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Because Jee-Zeus would have wanted it that way.

Is he related to Jee-Hercules?

Quoted from Lakewood Are you trying to give me salmonella again, Shelton?  In my napping place?

Don't go trying to make your furnishings sound more upscale than they are.  I know you sleep on a pile of shredded newspaper.  You're very hamster-like that way.

Quoted from Shelton Don't go trying to make your furnishings sound more upscale than they are.  I know you sleep on a pile of shredded newspaper.  You're very hamster-like that way.

Hey, at least I recycle.  

Kind of like Phil does with his comments.

I'm gonna take a nap in my bed (sorry Shelton) and rest for the rest of my night because I feel my typing will soon as Virgil's in Abyss when he dive deep. I mix my letterw. That wench bored me...

See ya all tomorrow morning, well my morning for others reviews. Cursed jet lag... It's 1:12 over here

See you folks

Update - Dreamscale has been less than impressed with most of what he's read so far.

Tis a sad day indeed.

I joined so that I can recieve honest feedback from others instead of just showing my stuff to loved ones. I made the error in assuming others are similarly motivated.
So since I can't be accused of being the most tactful person on the planet, I sitout the rest of the reviews unless someone specifically asks my opinion.

Quoted from JamminGirl I joined so that I can recieve honest feedback from others instead of just showing my stuff to loved ones. I made the error in assuming others are similarly motivated. So since I can't be accused of being the most tactful person on the planet, I sitout the rest of the reviews unless someone specifically asks my opinion.

I don't really understand what the issue is?  Are you angry that your script isn't getting more reviews, or are the reviews just not as lengthy as you would like?

The one week challenges are a totally different animal, in that everything is anonymous and nobody has any idea of who wrote what.  If it were a normal script that you submitted, with your name on the title page and what not, you could do review exchanges, or just read other's work and ultimately get yours read.

Again, what is the real issue here?

Quoted from JamminGirl I joined so that I can recieve honest feedback from others instead of just showing my stuff to loved ones. I made the error in assuming others are similarly motivated. So since I can't be accused of being the most tactful person on the planet, I sitout the rest of the reviews unless someone specifically asks my opinion.

Can I have your opinion on all of the OWC scripts?


Just kidding.  But honestly the feedback from the OWC is not a good place to start getting feedback from SimplyScript.  

Generally, if you post a script, you will get feedback that is pretty well thought out and constructive.  

With the OWC, you mostly are seeing people that want to read as many scripts as they can as fast as they can to get credit for the reads and see the competition.  That isn't to imply that all of the crit isn't well thought out because you do get some real feedback.  Relax, lay back and see it through.  You've already won by submitting a script in the first place - now it's time to see how the whole thing plays out.  

No the reviews I've gotten are fine. I wasn't looking for compliments, just honesty.
If people prefer to not have me give an honest review, I'll just sit it out is all I'm saying.

Quoted from JamminGirl No the reviews I've gotten are fine. I wasn't looking for compliments, just honesty. If people prefer to not have me give an honest review, I'll just sit it out is all I'm saying.

Nobody knows whether or not they're reading your script or not, so they have no choice but to give you honesty.  This isn't a situation where somebody writes a script to blow smoke up your ass in the hope that you'll read their script, because you won't know which one is theirs either.  It's a little bit much, but hopefully it makes sense.

Quoted from JamminGirl No the reviews I've gotten are fine. I wasn't looking for compliments, just honesty. If people prefer to not have me give an honest review, I'll just sit it out is all I'm saying.

What makes you think someone isn't being honest?  Just curious.  If you want you can pm me about it.

Quoted from mcornetto What makes you think someone isn't being honest?  Just curious.  If you want you can pm me about it.

:) you're not getting my point. Some people are complaining that I'm being, what, too harsh(?) or something along those lines. Too uppity for a newbie ;)

Quoted from JamminGirl :) you're not getting my point. Some people are complaining that I'm being, what, too harsh(?) or something along those lines. Too uppity for a newbie ;)

I think they are being honest about their perception of you.  But just because some vocal people might feel that way, it is not a reason for you to stop participating.  Everyone contributes in their own way to the board.  That's what makes it the special place it is.  

Why do I get the feeling that this is all related to people taking my very first post in this thread as serious?

The point of a review is to help the writer or at least it should be. You can write a negative review and still be helpful to the author.

People saying scripts are shit and embarrassing should be banned. I have no hard feelings toward the ones saying it but at the same time they are lucky I cannot ban people.

This site is full of amateur writers who come here for help. Honesty (Jammingirl) is the best way to help them as long as you "try" to help. I read a couple of your reviews and think you get the point of help even when you dislike something.

I know people are never going to fix up the OWC entries but the least you can do on something so short is give it a shot. If someone read a feature you wrote and just said "Liked it" you would not be happy.

Mike, your first post read as a joke. It does bring up a good point around the joking.

JamminGirl,

This thread was not aimed at you. I see nothing wrong with what you have said anywhere. It is more about people who seem to think telling someone their script is stupid, boring and shit without giving any reasons why is a constructive and positive thing. That is not you as far as I am aware.

Why do some people associate harsh reviews with honesty and tactful reviews with dishonesty? That doesn’t make any sense and it isn’t true. A review can be harsh and dishonest or a review can tactfully and professionally rip a script to shreds. Honesty or dishonesty in a review has nothing to do with how harsh it is.

Just because a reviewer is harsh doesn’t mean they’re honest.


Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Why do some people associate harsh reviews with honesty and tactful reviews with dishonesty? That doesn’t make any sense and it isn’t true. A review can be harsh and dishonest or a review can tactfully and professionally rip a script to shreds. Honesty or dishonesty in a review has nothing to do with how harsh it is. Just because a reviewer is harsh doesn’t mean they’re honest. Breanne

Exactly, you're going to get bad reviews because some people are new to giving reviews and others just aren't very good at it. I'd hope that the fact that all scripts are submitted as anonymous would lead to more honest reviews since nobody has a grudge or sycophantic need to lie about their reaction to the script. Just don't take it personally, it's only a one week writing excercise.

I wouldn't take the reviews given personally. You have to remember that playing into reviews for some people is their personal perception of the story you're telling. Not every story is for everyone. I've seen this full on on one of my scripts (not an OWC). I had gotten a very, VERY wide range of reviews based on how people view the matieral and the situations of the characters.

It was a drama as well and the opinions ranged from perfection to garbage. Why the range? Well, people who just read through the story liked it because it did have some drama to it, and the characters were decent. People who were more analytical noticed some odd behaviors from the characters in a variety of situations and felt that they tended to be a little too "blind" to what went on, and in some cases only performed for the sake of the plot. Finally, those who had been close to similar situations in their own lives hated it because I failed to represent how such things would really happen.

What does that mean? Reviews are subjective. Even on this OWC, I've gotten ranged from a great to a decent story to garbage. Yeah, Dreamscale garbaged both scripts, but we just take him as a more reasonable version of a guy named Balt who talked about porking chickens in the butt. I'm hoping he wouldn't mind giving me some more details as to why once the anonymous time is over and I can ask directly since he didn't say why he hated it.

Like I said, though, ranges of opinions are common and don't take them personally. It's natural to feel frustrated, but it's all part of the gig. If I took every bad review personally, I'd've quit a long time ago. You just have to take it an get better over it.

I'm tempted to comment on my weird (really weird) OWC comments, but as I haven't read any of the entries yet, it wouldn't be right. I'd also just give mine away, so I'll wait...

Quoted from George Willson a guy named Balt who talked about porking chickens in the butt.

I remember him. At least, Balt had a certain sense of humor.

Balt was honest beyond honest. If you got a compliment from him, it really meant something. I see Dreamscale the same way. He tends to be very critical of what he reads, but if you strike his fancy, he defends you to the death. It's like the ultimate challenge: "I got Dreamscale to like it."

Quoted from George Willson Balt was honest beyond honest. If you got a compliment from him, it really meant something. I see Dreamscale the same way. He tends to be very critical of what he reads, but if you strike his fancy, he defends you to the death. It's like the ultimate challenge: "I got Dreamscale to like it."

Really?  Is that your barometer for success?

Quoted from George Willson Balt was honest beyond honest. If you got a compliment from him, it really meant something. I see Dreamscale the same way. He tends to be very critical of what he reads, but if you strike his fancy, he defends you to the death. It's like the ultimate challenge: "I got Dreamscale to like it."

So he's like the Simon Cowell of SimplyScripts?

Quoted from Shelton Really?  Is that your barometer for success?

No, that's not my barometer of success. Geez, let's try something where there's hope of success at least. Like finishing something. It's a challenge, just like any other.

Quoted from Sham So he's like the Simon Cowell of SimplyScripts?

Sure feels that way sometimes. And like Cowell, when he likes something, you tend to take notice.

Of course, he has a weak spot for horror, so he allows a lot for that genre...

AAAAAAAAH! All this arguing on the review threads is really annoying!

We're members of a screenwriting forum, for Chrissakes! The world economy is crumbling, the planet itself is overcrowded and overheating! And worst of all, Newcastle are going to get relegated.

Life's too short for all this bickering.

Okay, and it's out of my system. It's my mission to read and score every entry - no idea why I'm putting myself through that. Perhaps it's to distract myself briefly from my feature, which I'm starting to worry is very, very boring. Onto the next OWC script!

Good lord!  Is anyone going to stop this back and forth commenting.  Some are calling people "bullies" and yet being a bully themselves.

Dreamscale has always been a stimulator for comments on this site...some people don't get him and even might have a true disliking for him...but I'm going to have to stand in the gap here.  He has been my writing partner on a couple of projects we have done here  on SS (we both live in the same town and time zone).  There have been times he has shared things that I didn't care to hear, but it has challenged me.

I think Dreamscale is a lot like Simon Cowell on American Idol.  People love and hate him at the same time. :) He is often the object of booing,snearing or redicule...but without him the show wouldn't be what it is...and to be honest...he's often quite right.  :)

I think there is some serious personality conflicts going on here that is resulting in childish behavior and it's not all coming from him...

I think Dreamscale should share his thoughts with the writer once they are revealed...IF the writer wants to grow or know what he is basing his comments on.


Now my review....

I like your way of scoring Jon. Good stuff, my friend, good stuff...

(everyone thinks it's all good, happy, positive.... until... : )

You still need a haircut though!

BOOM!

I definitely feel like the back and forth nonsense needs to cease. Seriously, I clicked on Edmund to see what the fuss was about since that thread had four pages of comments, and it turned out to be the same bickering we've seen between Dreamscale and some others that's been going on for a week now (at least). Come on, guys. A script thread is not the time or place and it's way off topic.

Quoted from George Willson I definitely feel like the back and forth nonsense needs to cease. Seriously, I clicked on Edmund to see what the fuss was about since that thread had four pages of comments, and it turned out to be the same bickering we've seen between Dreamscale and some others that's been going on for a week now (at least). Come on, guys. A script thread is not the time or place and it's way off topic.

Read the comments.  It's all about the script.

It was not all about the script. I read what was there, and now it's not. If you want to bicker, this thread is a nice place to do it. It seems this thread was started for that topic, and it would be a perfect to complain about how someone reviews scripts (if you want to) since this thread is entitled "Feedback on the Feedback." It may have started as a joke, but it would at least be topical.

Quoted from George Willson It was not all about the script. I read what was there, and now it's not. If you want to bicker, this thread is a nice place to do it. It seems this thread was started for that topic, and it would be a perfect to complain about how someone reviews scripts (if you want to) since this thread is entitled "Feedback on the Feedback." It may have started as a joke, but it would at least be topical.

Just about everything you deleted was related to someone's threat of giving a line by line review of that script, and that person's failure to follow through on it.

This thread is for general reviews, which have also sucked from some people.  But this was a full fledged discussion, related to that script, that you deleted.

I can appreciate your desire to fight for the the author in regards to the line by line critique promised by Dreamscale. I can also appreciate that he continually failed to provide said critique. However, the discussion never progressed beyond that point, which could have been done in two posts, as opposed to the 30-odd posts that failed to progress the discussion beyond that point, and which started as insults to Dreamscale's review tactics.

I am all for negative feedback since it helps us grow and if there were an iota of something beneficial in all of that, then it would have remained. What's done is done. Move on.

Anyone else think 'Feedback on the Feedback' is actually quite a good title for a script?

No?

Just me then.

I don't really see a problem with Dreamscale's review tactics at all. He's probably the most honest person on here when it comes to reviews and although he may not have pointed everything out in his post, I'm sure he will point out exactly what he thinks is wrong with it in due time. The feedback you get with the OWC is very different than just posting a short, lots of the feedback here has been one sentence replies that don't tell you much compared to the in depth reviews on the shorts board.

Hell, Dreamscale didn't like my OWC entry but no worries, other people did. You can never write something that will please everyone so why do people take things so personally?

ps - I liked Edmund.

Quoted from Brian M He's probably the most honest person on here when it comes to reviews

This is what I find weird.  If you don't give off a mean or negative impression in your review, you're not honest?  

Every review I've ever given on this site has been honest.  It may not be as nasty as others, but, does that make someone more honest than me, or the countless others that have done the same thing?

No Mike, not at all. What I'm saying is that out of all the reviews I've read, Dreamscales's are the most blunt and straight to the point. If he doesn't like it, he say's he doesn't like it.

I know lots of people give very honest reviews, like you and many others. That doesn't make him any more honest than you. I stand corrected.

Quoted from 1987brian referring to Dreamscale He's probably the most honest person on here when it comes to reviews…

Is he more honest than you? He certainly isn’t more honest than me. I’m completely honest with my reviews. If I like something I say so. If I don’t I say that as well. I have no problem with giving an honest review.

Why do you think Dreamscale is honest?

I find it insulting when people (not just you but many others) insinuate abrasiveness equates to honesty. Where in the world do people get that idea? Why on Earth would someone question the integrity of people simply because they’re polite. It’s insulting.

I’ve seen abrasive reviews that were of highly questionable integrity. The reviewer just wanted to tear the writer down for whatever reason. Reviews can be unfair whether the writer is anonymous or not. Some writers can’t stand to see another writer succeed. It happens.

The point is that just because a reviewer calls a script a piece of shit doesn’t mean he’s honest. And just because a reviewer isn’t an abrasive asshole doesn’t make them dishonest.


Breanne

Quoted from Brian M I don't really see a problem with Dreamscale's review tactics at all. He's probably the most honest person on here when it comes to reviews and although he may not have pointed everything out in his post, I'm sure he will point out exactly what he thinks is wrong with it in due time. The feedback you get with the OWC is very different than just posting a short, lots of the feedback here has been one sentence replies that don't tell you much compared to the in depth reviews on the shorts board. Hell, Dreamscale didn't like my OWC entry but no worries, other people did. You can never write something that will please everyone so why do people take things so personally? ps - I liked Edmund.

I don't even think he gave my script more than a scan.  This was evident from his review asking what the secret was, pretty much saying it was badly written without making any effort whatsoever at understanding it.  And you know what. I didn't have a single problem with that. My script isn't perfect and I know when a review is a write off and someone hasn't read my script.  I've been in the realm of peer reviews for a long time.

I did however have a problem with his later bravado about being able to go line by line through the script in order to tell us how badly written it was.  Especially because I don't even believe he actually made a real effort to read it the first time.  

I don't expect that my script is perfect.  I wrote it in 8 hours. However, I do take exception to it being called badly written.  It may have some mistakes but I would hardly call the script a write off.

And this is the main problem with Jeff and I've defended him in the past because I believe this.  Jeff is not capable yet of expressing his thoughts about a script in writing.  His criticism comes off as insulting rather than constructive as he intends it to be. This is why Jeff often feels he is the victim in these situations.

So when you say it's ok for Jeff to write these kind of reviews you are actually promoting misunderstandings on the site.  And, more importantly, you are not encouraging Jeff to increase his written communication abilities.

Those are my thoughts on this situation and likely the last I will say about it.  

Quoted from Brian M No Mike, not at all. What I'm saying is that out of all the reviews I've read, Dreamscales's are the most blunt and straight to the point. If he doesn't like it, he say's he doesn't like it. I know lots of people give very honest reviews, like you and many others. That doesn't make him any more honest than you. I stand corrected.

I read this after my initial response above but I still find your view disturbing. Dreamscale is blunt and to the point? Okay. How does that equate to honesty?

I’m not saying he’s dishonest. But when you say a reviewer is the most honest reviewer here and the only reason you can give to back that up is that he’s “blunt and to the point,” I have a problem with that. Blunt and to the point doesn’t equal honesty. It sounds like a backhanded accusation that polite people are dishonest.

Please don’t take this as an attack but comments such as yours crop up every so often around here and seriously, I get tired of hearing this “he’s harsh but he’s honest” shit.


Breanne

Breanne, I said in my last post I didn't exactly phrase what I was wanting to say right.

Every review is honest, or I hope they are. Most of Dreamscale's reviews are harsh, really harsh, which makes it feel better if he writes you a good review. I'm glad everyone on here doesn't follow Dreamscale's review tactics, but every board needs someone like him who's harsh and gets straight to the point.

I was in no way insulting other reviewers, my main point was it was unfair to ask Dreamscale to justify why he didn't like a script with a line by line review when others did simply because of the nature of his reviews. I hope this makes sense.

Quoted from Brian M I was in no way insulting other reviewers, my main point was it was unfair to ask Dreamscale to justify why he didn't like a script with a line by line review when others did simply because of the nature of his reviews. I hope this makes sense.

No one asked. Jeff offered.

Quoted from Brian M Breanne, I said in my last post I didn't exactly phrase what I was wanting to say right. Every review is honest, or I hope they are. Most of Dreamscale's reviews are harsh, really harsh, which makes it feel better if he writes you a good review. I'm glad everyone on here doesn't follow Dreamscale's review tactics, but every board needs someone like him who's harsh and gets straight to the point. I was in no way insulting other reviewers, my main point was it was unfair to ask Dreamscale to justify why he didn't like a script with a line by line review when others did simply because of the nature of his reviews. I hope this makes sense.

Yes it makes sense. And I understand what you’re trying to say although I don’t agree with everything you say. I’m relatively certain every review isn’t honest. I do believe most are however. I do not agree that every board needs someone who’s harsh. I judge the worth of a review by how constructive it is, not by how harsh it is.

I don’t believe reviewers should be expected to write line by line reviews but I do however think that if a reviewer calls a script a piece of shit, he should justify that comment. Otherwise this board would be filled with a lot more such reviews and a lot less constructive criticism.

I have read reviews from Dreamscale I thought were in depth and constructive and I have read others I thought were effectively worthless. I have also listened to his incessant references to his harshness to the point that I’m convinced he thrives on the reputation of being harsh. That leads me to wonder if he isn’t sometimes harsh for the sake of being harsh.

In either case, it has nothing to do with his integrity. But I do believe your comments are benign. So are mine. :)


Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Is he more honest than you? He certainly isn’t more honest than me. I’m completely honest with my reviews.

You're either honest or you're not. There isn't a scale for this sort of thing.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Why do you think Dreamscale is honest?

I truly believe that when Dreamscale called both Memories and Love Is All You Need piles of shit, he was typing exactly what was on his mind the moment he finished reading them. For him to write anything else would be dishonest, so either way, the guy can't seem to catch a break.

Quoted from Sham You're either honest or you're not. There isn't a scale for this sort of thing.

There’s no way to know if a review is honest or not. That’s why I only spoke for myself. You can only judge how constructive it is. “Your script is a piece of shit” is effectively worthless.

Quoted from Sham I truly believe that when Dreamscale called both Memories and Love Is All You Need piles of shit, he was typing exactly what was on his mind the moment he finished reading them. For him to write anything else would be dishonest, so either way, the guy can't seem to catch a break.

How constructive do you consider “Your script is a pile of shit” to be? I don’t find it very constructive.


Breanne


Edit: Just to keep my point clear, I’m not speaking as to the veracity of Dreamscale’s reviews. A script can very well be a piece of shit. I’m speaking directly with regard to the false notion that a review is honest merely by virtue of the fact that it’s harsh.

Quoted from Sham I truly believe that when Dreamscale called both Memories and Love Is All You Need piles of shit, he was typing exactly what was on his mind the moment he finished reading them. For him to write anything else would be dishonest, so either way, the guy can't seem to catch a break.

I am sorry but that is just complete BS.

He might of thought they were a pile of shit but it hardly makes him honest saying so in his review. We are dealing with many different people here in a totally anonymous setting and nobody, nobody has the right to use words like Shit and Turd when describing someones work. These could be new writers, young writers, regulars or newbies. How can anyone call this honest?

He could say he disliked a script without being so pathetic about it, he could be constructive in his criticism at the same time as disliking it. To be honest it would probably be much better if he had just not bothered saying anything.

I cannot understand anybody defending him by calling him honest. That is bollocks my friend. It is not honest, it is just downright rude and insensitive.

GM,

I see we have a very different opinion on the definition of honest.

My definition: Characterized by truth; not false.

Your definition: Marked by or displaying integrity; upright.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. I agree with Dreamscale in thinking those scripts, especially Love Is All You Need, are unsalvageable. I have no advice for the writers because of this.

I just don't see how anyone could have constructive output for a script about skeet-covered potato salad.

Quoted from Sham GM, I see we have a very different opinion on the definition of honest. My definition: Characterized by truth; not false. Your definition: Marked by or displaying integrity; upright. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. I agree with Dreamscale in thinking those scripts, especially Love Is All You Need, are unsalvageable. I have no advice for the writers because of this..

No, my definition of honesty is the same as yours. But we happen to live in a world where tact is often used alongside honest.

I think my wife has a big arse today, but I am certainly not gonna tell her she looks like an elephant. I might tell her her arse looks fat however.

If Jeff were being honest he could have just told the truth and said he disliked the script, calling it names is not honest it is just plain rude.

You really think that being honest means calling someone names?

The real point here isn't whether Jeff is being honest or not.  The real point is how he expresses his honesty in this social situation.  Saying you didn't like a script is expressing your honest opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It is not insulting.   Calling someones script a turd is just plain rude, inflammatory and insulting regardless of how you feel about it.  

I think it was appropriate for him to call it a piece of shit. Absolutely.

Many writers put a lot of effort and time into this challenge and took it very seriously. I am one of them.

So when someone posts a script like Love Is All You Need and gets more readers and comments than others who made an effort, including myself, it's infuriating. This particular writer basically took one big shit on the challenge and nobody seems to care.

And Dreamscale is still the bad guy. It doesn't make sense.

If you don't tell 'em like it is now, they'll just do it again.

Quoted from Sham I think it was appropriate for him to call it a piece of shit. Absolutely. Many writers put a lot of effort and time into this challenge and took it very seriously. I am one of them. So when someone posts a script like Love Is All You Need and gets more readers and comments than others who made an effort, including myself, it's infuriating. This particular writer basically took one big shit on the challenge and nobody seems to care. And Dreamscale is still the bad guy. It doesn't make sense. If you don't tell 'em like it is now, they'll just do it again.

You may think it's appropriate but you are not everyone on this site and you did not write the script.  He isn't talking about your script like that.

Quoted from Sham I think it was appropriate for him to call it a piece of shit. Absolutely. Many writers put a lot of effort and time into this challenge and took it very seriously. I am one of them. So when someone posts a script like Love Is All You Need and gets more readers and comments than others who made an effort, including myself, it's infuriating. This particular writer basically took one big shit on the challenge and nobody seems to care. And Dreamscale is still the bad guy. It doesn't make sense. If you don't tell 'em like it is now, they'll just do it again.

To be honest if that was the only script that Jeff had called names like that then we would not be having this argument. Please do not assume we are just talking about that one script. There are other examples where Jeff could have been honest but instead chose to use hateful language instead.

Nobody, ever has the right to rip into someone elses work like that. It is the first rule of reviewing and if there are people out there that do not understand this simple point then to be honest they should not be reviewing scripts.

In my 18 months of being on this site I have never, ever seen anyone act like this about anybodies work. I am really pissed off about it to be honest. It is not nice to read some of the crap he writes especially when he has just a poor grasp of screenwriting himself and yet feels expert enough to comment on other peoples scripts.

Example.

This is from Jeff's review last week of 'Great White in Great Britain'.

Quoted Text 1)  Opening slug - Not well written at all.  It kind of sets the tone here, and it's not a positive one at that.

That's it, it is not written well. What help is that to anybody? How is it not written well Jeff? You totally neglect to say. And to make things worse, this is the offending slug...

INT./EXT. BOAT OUT AT SEA - NIGHT

Anybody know what is wrong this this? Co's I sure don't.


This is not even one of his hateful reviews, this is just him picking at something without explaining why.

I am not saying that any of us are experts reviewers by any stretch of the imagination but I think on the whole we are honest reviewers without resorting crap like this.

The worst thing is that he is totally incapable of taking it himself and as soon as he feels the pressure on himself he starts crying like a little baby. Unbelievable. How anybody can act in the way he does and not realise what effect his words are having is just hard to believe.

Alright, I get it.

What I don't get is what you guys are trying to accomplish out of this. Do you want Dreamscale banned? Do you want him to leave voluntarily? Or do you just want an apology?

I'm not really seeing an end here.

I don't want to see Jeff banned.  I would honestly like him to take the feedback on board and do what he can to improve his reviews.  

I don't want to see anybody banned. Jeff has had a really active role in the site of late and has been helping to drive things like Script Club. I am sure we can get passed this and move on. But it is a problem and does need addressing before we can.

Quoted from Sham So when someone posts a script like Love Is All You Need and gets more readers and comments than others who made an effort, including myself, it's infuriating. This particular writer basically took one big shit on the challenge and nobody seems to care.

I've never had these kind of reviews.  I can see what all the fuss is about.

For myself, my first review from Dreamscale was very harsh and my most recent review was less harsh.  But still not constructive.  I guess I maybe improving but I blame myself this time as I did my script in four hours, just before the deadline, and really was clutching at straws.  So can't blame the guy.

When Dreamscale likes one of my scripts, I'm sure the rest of the world won't.  Who knows?

All I can say is that if I didn't ignore Dreamscale in the beginning and took it to heart, I probably would have left.  And many of the new writers in this competition may never come back again.

Sigh...I've read 14 of these, and just as I was thinking, "Right, over halfway there, 11 more to go", Don posts more?! How many of these things are there, anyway?

Quoted from JonnyBoy Sigh...I've read 14 of these, and just as I was thinking, "Right, over halfway there, 11 more to go", Don posts more?! How many of these things are there, anyway?

He said "30-ish", so it should be just about done if that wasn't it.

Ok. For some reason, I am GOING to complete my mission to read, review and rank all of the OWC scripts. It can be done. I've done 15 so far...only another 14 to go...(sigh).

Oooooooh!  So this is what we were talking about on the Constructive Criticism thread!  Now it all makes sense!

Well I'll say it.  I know it's not going to happen, but I am all for putting Dreamscale on the Pete Rose list.  I think he does more harm than good around here.  All the fights that have happened in here the last couple months have been instigated by him.  And usually I love a good flame war!  But these are pointless.  I mean, an argument because you don't like the screenplay we're doing in Script Club?  Insulting someone's wife because you don't like the EXAMPLE theme suggested for the One Month Contest?  Save that for threads about whether or not Obama's the Anti-Christ.

As has been said, there's a big difference between being honest and just being an ass.  "You're script is a pile of sh**" is most likely honest, but it certainly isn't thoughtful.  And probably not real helpful to the writer.  "I'll try to make the next draft less pile of sh**ty."  And the funny thing is, for all his "I pull no punches" BS, he absolutely can't handle criticism.  When we did his script in the Script Club, he actually claimed that he was being attacked!  By people who puta little ore thought into it than, THis is sh**.

And I think Giles is right.  The worst part of it is he really doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sorry to keep this going.  I've tried real hard to avoid getting involved.  It's been hard.  Like I said, I like a good flame war, and my will is weak!  But this lseemed iked both the time and the place.  

I can't believe how this thing with Dreamscale has gone on and on...and with some respects...the malicious talk is as harsh as some say his critques are quilty of...it doesn't add up.  

I read both "Memories" and "Love is all You Need" and their offering seemed more like a joke than any kind of sincere effort for the challenge. Tell me really...what could we have possibly said that would help either of these posts?  I can't take them seriously.  I'm not as to the point as someone like Dreamscale, but I felt they were both an insult to the premise of this board.  They were pieces of do-do...is that a little kinder than calling them a piece of Shit? :)  

Forgive me, but the OWC challenges, in my mind is an event and challenge we all look forward to.  It's a time to put our best writing foot forward within the confines of the genre, page limit, time restraint, etc.

To be sure...both scripts mentioned above....whether they are from a newbie writer or someone who has been on the board for some time...both, in my opinion are rubbish. I was lured in based on their soft titles to find that they were actually not worthy of even the pages they were written on.  

Some have written they got a few shits and giggles and liked them....that to me is unbelievable, but I suppose that might have to do with age and gender more than it has to do with anything else.  

Since we're talking about offering the writers constructive criticism, then what good did those positive comments do for the author any more than Dreamscale's or mine or any other person who wrote they thought it was a terd?   If these writers wanted honest criticism, then maybe they might have thought to write something of value or at least written something that seemed like they respected the challenge and was worthy of an honest review...and further more...why are any of you getting upset over what he said about these or any of the other scripts he doesn't like. I think it's clear...that's what he thinks...    

That's like saying anyone who opens their mouth to sing (and obviously can't sing) should just keep singing because some people found it funny or entertaining.  If it wasn't meant to be funny, then that could also be painful feedback because people laughed...  If I'm sincere about singing and I obviously can't sing but still do...then I open myself up for that redicule.  

I know Dreamscale is tough and some may not like that, but I dare say, in trying to get your point across...some of you have become a gang of bullies.  I believe, for the sake of our board that if you have something harsh to say to each other, say it through a PM or an email privately.  

Dreamscale, due to location and time zone has helped me on a couple of our writing projects and while he can be tough...I do know that when he gives you a review he puts time into it and is sincere...maybe his delivery is not the way we would like to see it it, but I don't think you're ever going to get him to change his tune this way...you're just feuling the fire by being harsh yourselves.  His reviews  have challenged me plenty.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...he is entitled to his, good, bad or indifferent...I suppose the same as we are entitled to submit a short in an OWC contest that is going to be subject to some harsh reviews.  

Thinking of banning someone for something we all hold respectfully dear to us, "freedom of speech" is ludicrous!  

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think this is an argument with men behaving like boys...I know there is a dislike of Dreamscale that has been building as I have heard it carry over into other arenas of communication and I don't like that...especially when I respect and appreciate the people and what I am learning here on SS. It saddens me.

Hopefully there is something we can learn from all of this with respect to how we treat each other.  Certainly an additional wrong never makes a right.  

Morgan

"Whether people speak well or ill of you, the main thing is that they speak of you!"

And as it has just been stated in the other thread, these Dreamscale/Shelton/Giles discussions are over.

Go back to reading.

First off, forget all the banning talk. Only Don can do that and it’s pointless to bring it up. Besides, Dreamscale is nowhere near the harshest reviewer we’ve ever had.

Secondly, All You Need Is Love is clearly a joke. There are joke scripts in almost every OWC and there’s no reason to get upset with them. They will probably never stop. And yes, a script can actually be a piece of shit. I think the author of that particular script would probably agree with Dreamscale’s review. He’s probably laughing his ass off right now. I thought the damn script was kind of funny.

Anyway, this board is like a family. A very large one. We’re going to disagree sometimes and sometimes there will be heated arguments. You can’t measure a family by their arguments alone. We have a lot of love here too. So let’s all just calm down and give each other a great big hug.

Maybe if we all just love each other a little more, the world will be a better place. And isn’t that really the point of All You Need Is Love? :)



Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Maybe if we all just love each other a little more, the world will be a better place. And isn’t that really the point of All You Need Is Love?

Well, all the same, I think I'll avoid the potato salad...

Quoted from George Willson Well, all the same, I think I'll avoid the potato salad...

Haha point taken.

It's just a little salty, and I'm sure all the AIDS on it died not long after being exposed to the air.

You guys are wusses.

I would also like to add Shelton to the Pete Rose list.  Thank you.

Quoted from seamus19382 I would also like to add Shelton to the Pete Rose list.  Thank you.

You're welcome, and good luck with your quest.

I don't get all this back and forth about Dreamscale's reviews. I mean, it's just his subjective opinion - harsh or not, honest or not - that's all it is. Take it for what it is - or don't take it for anything. It's totally up to you.

And, I would just like to remind all those who get upset by Dreamscale's reviews, that he wrote Fade To White. So, with that in mind, I really wouldn't get too down if he doesn't like your script.

Quoted from Shelton It's just a little salty, and I'm sure all the AIDS on it died not long after being exposed to the air. You guys are wusses.

Yeah but you didn’t bring the potato salad. That was my dish! And my good Tupperware!

Quoted from Don Yes, all are military leaders.    You get 10,000 points (totally worthless).

And I didn’t know Bugs Bunny was a military leader. I knew he was in the army.


Brea

Quoted from sniper And, I would just like to remind all those who get upset by Dreamscale's reviews, that he wrote Fade To White. So, with that in mind, I really wouldn't get too down if he doesn't like your script.

Look, I'm not a huge fan of Dreamscale's methods of reviewing either, but attacking and belittling him like this isn't really the answer.

Over the past few days several threads have spiraled out of control discussing this, and it really just needs to stop.

While I do wish he would use more tact in his reviews and consider the feelings of the author when he writes a curt review (even though sometimes it's hard to think of them as anything other than an avatar), attacking him in a writer's thread is not the way to handle this.

I really feel like the majority of what's happened over this past week could have been confined to PMs.  (This goes for posts from me as well.)  

In short, this really just has to stop.

Am I belittling Jeff? I'm saying that, before you go balistic over his reviews, read his script to understand where he's coming from (review-wise). If you think Fade To White is golden then, by all means, take everything Jeff says as gospel. If you don't think the script's golden...then don't.

Sniper...it's still a dig...or a "snipe" :)  

We have a lot of productive things to do like review all the 30 something OWC scripts.

It's good to keep a cover on your potato salad at a picnic :)

I've really tried to stay out of this post, but I can't at this point.

Rob, these comments, coming from the writer of "Escape from the Killings Fields" can also be taken with every grain of salt in every ocean.

No need to trash my script in here, is there really?

INT.  GRIFFIN LIVING ROOM -DAY.

PETER GRIFFIN sits on the couch.  BRIAN, the dog, sits on the other end with a martini in his hand.  His laptop lays on his lap.

        BRIAN
  Boy, this one week challenge is
  really getting ugly.

        PETER
  No uglier than the time I met
  Cleveland's family last Thanksgiving.

                                                               INSERT:

INT.  CLEVELAND's HOUSE -DAY.

Cleveland's house is filled with well dressed relatives.  Some are eating.  Some are drinking.  All are gaving a good time.

DING DONG!

Cleveland walks to the front door.

        CLEVELAND
  I'll get it, everybody!

He opens the door.  Peter steps in.  The two smile at each other.

        CLEVELAND
  Hey Peter.  Happy Thanksgiving.

        PETER
  Hey Cleveland.  I just wanted to swing
  by and wish you a Hap--

Peter looks around the room.  His eyes open up, surprised.

        PETER
  Look at all the coloreds!

Everyone turns and looks at him, angrily







Phil

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I find it insulting when people (not just you but many others) insinuate abrasiveness equates to honesty. Where in the world do people get that idea? Why on Earth would someone question the integrity of people simply because they’re polite. It’s insulting. I’ve seen abrasive reviews that were of highly questionable integrity. The reviewer just wanted to tear the writer down for whatever reason. Reviews can be unfair whether the writer is anonymous or not. Some writers can’t stand to see another writer succeed. It happens. The point is that just because a reviewer calls a script a piece of shit doesn’t mean he’s honest. And just because a reviewer isn’t an abrasive asshole doesn’t make them dishonest. Breanne

Breanne, you seem to think that if someone points out plagierism that means they're abrasive. or as you so delicately put it, an abrasive asshole. I hope the irony is not lost...

Quoted from mcornetto I don't even think he gave my script more than a scan.  This was evident from his review asking what the secret was, pretty much saying it was badly written without making any effort whatsoever at understanding it.  And you know what. I didn't have a single problem with that. My script isn't perfect and I know when a review is a write off and someone hasn't read my script.  I've been in the realm of peer reviews for a long time. I did however have a problem with his later bravado about being able to go line by line through the script in order to tell us how badly written it was.  Especially because I don't even believe he actually made a real effort to read it the first time.   I don't expect that my script is perfect.  I wrote it in 8 hours. However, I do take exception to it being called badly written.  It may have some mistakes but I would hardly call the script a write off. And this is the main problem with Jeff and I've defended him in the past because I believe this.  Jeff is not capable yet of expressing his thoughts about a script in writing.  His criticism comes off as insulting rather than constructive as he intends it to be. This is why Jeff often feels he is the victim in these situations. So when you say it's ok for Jeff to write these kind of reviews you are actually promoting misunderstandings on the site.  And, more importantly, you are not encouraging Jeff to increase his written communication abilities. Those are my thoughts on this situation and likely the last I will say about it.

Your response is that of an intelligent man.

Quoted from JamminGirl Breanne, you seem to think that if someone points out plagierism that means they're abrasive. or as you so delicately put it, an abrasive asshole. I hope the irony is not lost...

Maybe you should confine your comments to what I actually said and not what you guess I seem to think. I have no idea what you’re talking about. And I suspect you don’t either.

But if you have a problem with what I seem to think, maybe you should learn what I actually think before you shoot off your mouth.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson The point is that just because a reviewer calls a script a piece of shit doesn’t mean he’s honest. And just because a reviewer isn’t an abrasive asshole doesn’t make them dishonest.

Are you saying that the above statements aren’t true? Are you saying that calling a script a piece of shit is evidence of honesty? Are you saying that being an abrasive asshole is evidence of honesty? Because all I said in the above quote is that that isn't true. If you disagree then please address that issue. I made no comments regarding plagiarism.


Breanne

Yes!  I'm getting excited and riled!  I think I'm about to witness my first SS chick fight!

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Just remember these words of wisdom: Because Jee-Zeus would have wanted it that way.

Did you point out examples of my abrasiveness or was this flippant comment enough?

Your quote was directly in response to something I said in the news forum. Service.

(An aside: I'm quite put by the fact that quotes within quotes are not allowed by the programming here)


Please don't assume that you know what I understand and what I don't.

Quoted from JamminGirl (An aside: I'm quite put by the fact that quotes within quotes are not allowed by the programming here)

We're working on it, and it should be up and running not long after Tron gets back from vacation.

Quoted from rc1107 Yes!  I'm getting excited and riled!  I think I'm about to witness my first SS chick fight!

How come you don't contribute more? LOL! ;-)

Quoted from rc1107 Yes!  I'm getting excited and riled!  I think I'm about to witness my first SS chick fight!

No, you missed that yesterday. I got out-chicked in the end I am sorry to say.

Quoted from JamminGirl Please don't assume that you know what I understand and what I don't.

No assumptions here. And I have no idea why you’re making that statement.

I’m going by what you said. I have no idea how you got that I find calling someone on plagiarism means they’re abrasive. I made no such comments. From my standpoint, you just pulled that out of your ass.

Quoted from JamminGirl Did you point out examples of my abrasiveness or was this flippant comment enough?

Why would I need to point out examples of your abrasiveness? I’ve made no comments regarding your abrasiveness. Again you’re just pulling stuff out of your ass. Honestly I think you’re paranoid.

I deleted the post since it bothers you. But perhaps in the future you should try and refrain from saying things that will bother you to see quoted.

Now that I’ve deleted something that obviously bothered you at the time but you didn’t say anything, can we get back to how you concluded that I think someone is an abrasive asshole for calling someone on plagiarism? I’d really like to hear how you arrived at that conclusion.


Breanne

I am a happy little cloud, who used to be filled with rain, but alas.  No more.

Quoted from Grandma Bear I've been around for a long long year... and it seems to me most of the arguments happen early in the year and spring here at SS.  I found that weird. When spring is here fighting is the last thing on my mind. C'mon people. Show each other some love... or I might get annoyed. Yes, that was a threat!  ;-)

I tried to smooth things over. Didn’t work. Sorry.

Quoted from mcornetto How come you don't contribute more? LOL! ;-)

I'm back on the boards for a little while.  It's good to be back, actually.  I've missed it.  I'll have to leave again for a few months in the near future (no internet access where I'm going), but after that, I'm back for good.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson No assumptions here. And I have no idea why you’re making that statement. I’m going by what you said. I have no idea how you got that I find calling someone on plagiarism means they’re abrasive. I made no such comments. From my standpoint, you just pulled that out of your ass. Why would I need to point out examples of your abrasiveness? I’ve made no comments regarding your abrasiveness. Again you’re just pulling stuff out of your ass. Honestly I think you’re paranoid. I deleted the post since it bothers you. But perhaps in the future you should try and refrain from saying things that will bother you to see quoted. Now that I’ve deleted something that obviously bothered you at the time but you didn’t say anything, can we get back to how you concluded that I think someone is an abrasive asshole for calling someone on plagiarism? I’d really like to hear how you arrived at that conclusion. Breanne

Hilarious. Since you failed to point to a specific example(of my supposed abrasiveness) I used the point( being discussed) that elicit the particular response from you. Plagiarism.

I really am not in the mood for a tit for tat with you so let's end it here with this:
You don't seem to get the irony of calling someone an abrasive asshole as abrasive.

The End.

Quoted from JamminGirl I really am not in the mood for a tit. The End.

I don't like that story.

well I got two attached to me an' that's enough. :D

Overall, I've been pretty satisfied with the feedback that my entry has recieved. Some have been short, others have been extremely well thought out, and all have been helpful to some degree...Sort of like getting a test back with the teacher's corrections, thinking "Damn! I should have known that"....

I think every one should feel it that way. Usually, thats' what happens. But this time I feel that some persons will have to settle accounts with others who think the sun shines out their a***e.

Quoted from JamminGirl You don't seem to get the irony of calling someone an abrasive asshole as abrasive.

No, you clearly don’t understand my point. All I said was that abrasive doesn’t equal honest. That’s pretty clear. Keep thinking about it. It’ll eventually sink in.

Quoted from JamminGirl Since you failed to point to a specific example(of my supposed abrasiveness) I used the point( being discussed) that elicit the particular response from you. Plagiarism.

Again, why would I point out a specific example of your abrasiveness? And why are you asking me to? I said nothing to you until you brought up the remark about plagiarism.

What does “the point (being discussed) that elicit the particular response from you” mean? That’s completely incoherent. These types of nonsensical sentences are what’s causing the problem here.

I think you must have realized how foolish your plagiarism comment was because you still haven’t addressed the real issue. Why would you think my saying that abrasiveness doesn’t equal honesty somehow means I think someone is abrasive for busting someone on plagiarism? You just pulled that out of your ass.

Quoted from JamminGirl I really am not in the mood for a tit for tat with you...

Clearly you were in the mood for it or you would have just kept your mouth shut. I suggest from now on when you have nothing of any substance to say or you just want to pull nonsense out of your ass that you just keep your mouth shut.


Breanne


Edit:

Quoted from JamminGirl The End.

I hope you really mean this. I don’t have anymore time to waste indulging you in your paranoid fantasies. So if you’re really done, then good. I look forward to not having you waste anymore of my time.


Brea

Coooooooooooool Piiiiia...

I'm curious what the plagiarism issue is all about.  Did I miss something here?  Who plagiaized who, and in what context?

Dreamscale gave it to me... cheater... LOL

Quoted from Dreamscale I'm curious what the plagiarism issue is all about.  Did I miss something here?  Who plagiaized who, and in what context?

The best I can figure it out, Jammingirl decided that my assertion that “abrasive doesn’t equal honest” somehow translates to that I believe people who bust writers for plagiarism are abrasive.

In any event, it makes no sense. First off, I don’t think busting someone for plagiarism has anything directly to do with abrasiveness. And secondly, I don’t care if someone is abrasive when they bust someone for plagiarism.

So I asked Jammingirl to explain her position. She could not.

Quoted from JamminGirl The End.

Guess we’ll never know. Probably better off, though.


Brea

Breanne, why don't you get a life and rest the argument?

Shelton,

sorry I couldn't find with one. With two..... Too many

Then

AAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!


Everybody, I truly apologize for my part in this train wreck of a OWC. Yes I could have gone about things differently, but if I was to be really honest with you I would have to admit that yesterday morning I was having lots of fun. But, it is not fair to drag the whole site down with me and of course I feel bad about that.

This site used to be a fantastic place to come and discuss writing, scripts and films with like-minded people. But recently I have just got so sick of the bile and vomit that is being spewed around the place that I was unable to resist jumping in. And yes, I am not oblivious to the fact that I am hardly innocent in that regard but when somebody pisses me off they piss me off.

I hereby promise that I will not allow one person to ruin my experience of this site and thus will not allow my frustrations spill over onto the rest of the board, no matter how much fun I am having.

Dreamscale, you had not reviewed my script so there was nothing personal there, besides I am a big boy and can take anything anybody wants to throw at me. Others however are not, just keep that in mind when throwing around words like turd and shit. Move on from here and become a better reviewer and I promise I will leave you alone. Actually I will just ignore you but I think that is good enough.

I will be trying to stay away for a while, I do have some writing to do.

Quoted from JamminGirl Breanne, why don't you get a life and rest the argument?

Hey Jammingirl, it’s true I let you get under my skin. I allowed myself to be drug into all the arguing and bickering. I should have been more professional than to allow that.

I apologize to you for anything I said that was mean spirited. I don’t agree with you. Hell I don’t even understand half of what you’re talking about. But as I look back over my posts, I have no doubt some of my comments were meant to incite you. Mostly because I felt you were inciting me. But without a doubt I incited you a few times. And for that I publicly apologize and you can have the last word with the “get a life” comment.

With that, I would like to publicly apologize to everyone, and I mean everyone, for my behavior. I’ve got a lot of work to do so I’m off. I hope everyone just cools off and everything can get back to normal soon. Me, I’ve had it until things calm down. :)


Breanne

Too bad this thread cannot be locked.  People obviously have a lot to say on this, and another thread would invariably pop up, so this is as good a home as any for the detritus, I suppose.

This is some of the loopiest crap I have ever read.  Looks like a few people are trying to wind up their feuds, and that is good.

If nothing else, please let this absurd "plagiarism" argument drop.  It makes no sense at all, and people are supposed to call out plagiarism anyways.  It is just about the worst offense you can commit around here.

As for the name-calling and accusations, it is just weird.

I am not Dreamscale's biggest cheerleader, but he contributes, and if having a big ego is a crime around here, we simply do not have enough stockades for the overflow.

If there is some message Dreamscale is supposed to take away from this public flogging, he has surely absorbed it by now -- that, or he never will.

And if Dreamscale put his name on his OWC script and some people acted with that knowledge, that is Dreamscale being a knucklehead and floating conspiracy theories is also absurd.  You just need to suck that one up, Jeff.

This thread will not be locked for now, but

*  Direct name calling will be deleted from here forward.
*  Arguments about plagiarism that seem to have originated from Mars will be deleted from here forward.
*  Other stuff might be deleted at the whims of the moderator.  We can do that, you know.

Pia mentioned that there seems to be an annual meltdown that occurs in the spring.  She is right.  It has been thus for many years.

And it is always very strange.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I would like to publicly apologize to everyone, and I mean everyone, for my behavior. Breanne

Don't Breanne. We all know you and we love you just the way you are

Michel 8)

Quoted from bert *  Other stuff might be deleted at the whims of the moderator.  We can do that, you know.

I think this is a fantastic opportunity to get to know your friendly neighborhood moderators and their styles.

We could also talk about the rules of screenwriting.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Hey Jammingirl, it’s true I let you get under my skin. I allowed myself to be drug into all the arguing and bickering. I should have been more professional than to allow that. I apologize to you for anything I said that was mean spirited. I don’t agree with you. Hell I don’t even understand half of what you’re talking about. But as I look back over my posts, I have no doubt some of my comments were meant to incite you. Mostly because I felt you were inciting me. But without a doubt I incited you a few times. And for that I publicly apologize and you can have the last word with the “get a life” comment. With that, I would like to publicly apologize to everyone, and I mean everyone, for my behavior. I’ve got a lot of work to do so I’m off. I hope everyone just cools off and everything can get back to normal soon. Me, I’ve had it until things calm down. :) Breanne

:) good on ya!

This not from Mars, so I believe, as it's the only instance I've seen of where plagiarism was mentioned:

Quoted from JamminGirl LORI (15) is an artfully bedraggled burnout kid. I know you love the "JUNO" script but did you have to copy Diablo Cody's description of Juno to the 'T'? Sorry, I wont read  this any further.

This came from a review of 'Riverside Afternoon', And truly, if the exact description from a screenplay was swiped, I'd say that falls into the realm of plagiarism.  I've never read or seen Juno, so I have no idea.

Yes, that was lifted from Juno.  Mystery solved.  Thank you, Steven.

Now, with a brief, stern wag of my finger to the author of "Riverside Afternoon", we move on.

OK. I did write Riverside afternnoon. As you all know, English is not my first language. I did what I could to write a decent screenplay, translating my precise vision of the film in English words. I know language barrier is a additional problem to me. I actually did'nt write anything in English for about one year and I did it in one day.

I just borrowed 4 words from a script because in the rush it was the best way to describe the character. IMHO it wasn't plagiarism. Surely an hasty stupidity.

I think a lot of people knows me around here and knows my previous work. I NEVER plagiarized anyone in my life. How can some abrasive little &@%#£ can destroy a script she even never read. She admitted. I'm really pi**ed to be treated as an underdog writer for a stupid 4 words description, but I have more serious problems in head to discuss with someone who can't help arguing with everybody around.

Michel

Bert, I didn't put my name on the script, and I don't see where it is available either.  Someone mentioned that when you "right click" on the title, it shows up.  It doesn't for me.  I don't know how Giles became aware of this information.  It seems to me that he was told by someone else, after he reviewed it positively.

I also don't know why,minutes after he deleted his review and rewrote it, that Hig came out of nowhere, calling my script a waste, or whatever his words were and said it was written by me, and that he wouldn't read it and advised others not to as well.  It's been a bashfest ever since.

As I said earlier, smells like floating, dead carp to me.

I too apologize to each and everyone that has been affected by all this back and forth nonsense.

I also apologize to the writers of the 5 scripts that I reviewed very poorly and insensitively.  I mean that.  There was no reason for me to be like that.

I run OWC for fun. I never guessed there could some KGB agents among the reviewers. This is the first OWC I run for one year. The last one was Halloween and the carved pumpking. I did several before but the mood wasn't the same. I'm deeply desappointed to feel the way I feel right now. By chance, some old friends still wander around and their welcome cheered me up. But I don't if I'm going to stick around.

Quoted from michel I never guessed there could some KGB agents among the reviewers.

So now the thread turns into "Screenwriter’s Anonymous".

[Plagiarism alert:  Joke stolen from Cornetto]

Please do not beat yourself up over this, Mical.  The transgression was small, and your reputation precedes you.

But it is not a KGB thing, either.

It is a tiny lesson to everyone:  Somebody out there, somewhere, will always catch you.

Never, ever do it.

I hope the one who commited all this should be happy? She had a good night. Apologies from Breanne. Mea Culpa from myself. Who will be the next?

Quoted from Dreamscale Bert, I didn't put my name on the script, and I don't see where it is available either.  Someone mentioned that when you "right click" on the title, it shows up.  It doesn't for me.  I don't know how Giles became aware of this information.  It seems to me that he was told by someone else, after he reviewed it positively.

From the properties of DownUnder.pdf

That doesn't show up when I right click on it.  What am I missing here?  I only have "General" in properties.  What did I do wrong?  And why did Hig post about it being from me?

Michel, let it go.  It's no big deal.  It is a good lesson, as Bert said, though.

Yeah, leave it to the other computer geek to know about properties. Yes, boys and girls, your program defaults the properties to the user info you registered it with. This is why I changed my properties prior to saving. Of course, I checked my properties after saving and the damn thing chnged itself back, but I didn't much care after that.

Right click on the pdf and go down to document properties. Pretty easy.

This has been amusing, you know. It's funnier than Pia trying to write a romance or Mike dabbling in horror. Funnier than trying to convince an X-Box owner that Metroid Prime is better than Halo. Funnier than Paris Hilton trying to say "no." ...d'oh...

Oh, and borrowing a description of a character from the screenplay is plagiarism? Oh, dear Lord. Please can we drop that one?

OK, now I get it.  Right click on the actual opened PDF.  This is obviously an issue and takes away all the integrity of this anonymous challenge.  I had no idea...and will not use it going forward either.  Too bad that's not the case for others in here.

Quoted from George Willson It's funnier than...Mike dabbling in horror.

Oh c'mon!  At least go with a genre I've never written.  Sci-Fi is safe.

Quoted from Grandma Bear That was actually a spoiler I didn't really enjoy...

Then don't use it. I never do. I know about it, and so I tried to ensure my script woudln't have my name on it.

Quoted from Shelton At least go with a genre I've never written.  Sci-Fi is safe.

I think I could safely say funnier than nearly anyone writing sci-fi. That's a freakin' dangerous genre to dabble in just because of how crazy it gets. Producers with no money always go horror or sci-fi, and sci-fi is expensive to do right. They really shouldn't.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go watch Plan 9 From Outer Space.

EDIT: Okay, I lied. I actually just put on Tol'able David from 1921.

Really surprised how how some of the best entries aren't getting any attention...ike "Sweetie".  C'mon guys and gals, give it a read...great shit!  Not mine, so no reason other than trying to get it some well deserved attention.

It's being totally ignored for some realy odd reason.

I paid Jeff $20 to say that.

Jeff you said you would post it in two threads, not just one. Get on it mate...

Quoted from Tommyp I paid Jeff $20 to say that. Jeff you said you would post it in two threads, not just one. Get on it mate...

That's $14.58 USD.

I thought you said you'd hook me up with a a chick with giant melons like Flower?  I don't need the $20...I need those melons!!!!

How about some of the scripts that have been relegated to the second page? I'm dissapointed. I was looking forward to actually getting feedback.

Yo...Jammin'...just reply to the PM's I've sent you, and let me know what you're looking for...

Quoted from Dreamscale And why did Hig post about it being from me? .

Because after I made a post on it, steven08 (I think? his post was deleted...) yelled at me for only saying it because it was dreamscales script.

Thats why.

I don't know enough about these science boxes to right click links and all that stuff.

Quoted from Higgonaitor Because after I made a post on it, steven08 (I think? his post was deleted...) yelled at me for only saying it because it was dreamscales script. Thats why. I don't know enough about these science boxes to right click links and all that stuff.

Higgi, that's not what I said at all.  I thought you were upset because of Dreamscale's reviews and were taking it out on others.

Hmmm, you seemed to know it was my script, as did a few otehrs whose posts mysteriously vanished before my eyes.

Those dead carp keep rising to the surface.  Fishy...very fishy...

Let it go.  Now.

I just want a few of the folks in here to come clean, like Sir Giles did.  Is that so wrong?

It's truly a mystery.  Kind of like that great old Dio song from the BIG 80's.

Quoted from Dreamscale I just want a few of the folks in here to come clean, like Sir Giles did.  Is that so wrong?

Yes.  If they didn't come clean by now, they won't.  Let it go and refrain from throwing yourself under the bus.

Yesir, mast'r Mike.  So sorry, sir.  Yur right as always.  Wouldn't want to injur m'self undr that big ol' bus.

Sooy, mast'r.  Please, please, my bad...

Quoted from Dreamscale Yesir, mast'r Mike.  So sorry, sir.  Yur right as always.  Wouldn't want to injur m'self undr that big ol' bus. Sooy, mast'r.  Please, please, my bad...

Wow.  Do you really try this hard to be an asshole?  No wonder I got 57 PMs in support.

ooooooo FIGHT! THUMB WRESTLE!!!! (or rock paper scissors, don't REALLY mind...)

Quoted from Dreamscale I just want a few of the folks in here to come clean, like Sir Giles did.  Is that so wrong? It's truly a mystery.  Kind of like that great old Dio song from the BIG 80's.

Tyler thought that Steven said you wrote the script.  I know this because I had a conversation with Tyler shortly after he made that post.  It was a misunderstanding on Tyler's part due to what Steven wrote.  I thought that Stevie had written it, I even told Tyler that, and it wasn't until much later that I found out it was actually yours.  End of story.

We've taken care of everything
The words you hear, the songs you sing
The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes.
It's one for all and all for one
We work together, common sons
Never need to wonder how or why.

Look around at this world we've made
Equality our stock in trade
Come and join the Brotherhood of Man
Oh, what a nice, contented world
Let the banners be unfurled
Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand.

Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
We have assumed control.
We have assumed control.
We have assumed control.

Michel, you may be right...KGB...or something even worse...

Quoted from Dreamscale Yo...Jammin'...just reply to the PM's I've sent you, and let me know what you're looking for...

How do PMs work on this site? I don't see a blinking envelope or anything...

Quoted from JamminGirl How do PMs work on this site? I don't see a blinking envelope or anything...

Upper right corner.  Will tell you how many PMs you have.

Upper Left for me.  You'll see this:

You currently have 10 (0 new) private messages.  

Only it will say how many YOU have, and how many are NEW in the parenthesis.  Then you click on the words 'private messages', to get to them.

Quoted from Shelton Upper right corner.  Will tell you how many PMs you have.

Hey thanks! I still didn't see it so I figured if I clicked on my handle it might take me into my account. It did. Turns out I had two PMs unbeknownst to me ;D

Quoted from Grandma Bear I'm picking scripts with the fewest reads first. And I don't check who wrote them first either...

Which means you might end up checking mine soon then? It's stuck on page two below a few...

Quoted from Dreamscale We've taken care of everything The words you hear, the songs you sing The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes. It's one for all and all for one We work together, common sons Never need to wonder how or why. Look around at this world we've made Equality our stock in trade Come and join the Brotherhood of Man Oh, what a nice, contented world Let the banners be unfurled Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand. Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation We have assumed control. We have assumed control. We have assumed control.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, I know this one! It's 2112 by Rush. Very end of the song. I have, like, three versions of this silly song ranging from 8 and a half minutes up to 21 minutes (probably 21:12, but I didn't look just now).

This may not be the time or place for this question, but when do the writers get revealed?  You stupid jerks!

Quoted from seamus19382 This may not be the time or place for this question, but when do the writers get revealed?  You stupid jerks!

Hahah.

I think this weekend?

Quoting Rush?  God, you guys are old farts.

And, yes, Dream I commented on your script only because I knew you wrote it.  And you want a confession because it's always all about you.

I would have never read the script once I hit the name "Nicole Kidman".  I only commented because I knew it was your script. Mostly because you were purposefully hurtful and callous to just about everyone you commented on.  A condescending know-it-all who can barely tie his own screenwriting shoes.

What's really fascinating is that like most bullies you acquire toadies. People have been praising your honesty -- he's like Simon Cowell.  It's a pretty good comparison. Simon Cowell's comments have little to do with karaoke contestants and everything about self-promotion and hearing himself speak.

I like music!  I also like finding songs and associating them with people.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN3hVL6vzxM

I'm not going to respond to this shit anymore.  Doesn't do any good for anyone.  You'll have to play alone today, little boys.

Quoted from Lakewood Quoting Rush?  God, you guys are old farts.

Old? Hm, I don't know about old, really. I listen to a little of everything, just like I watched a film from 1921 last night and one from 2008 on Saturday. While things have release dates, we have access to everything like a timeline we can pick stuff off of to visit anywhere in the last 100 years.

Sure, methods and people change, and you can't always use the same methods, but storytelling and music is eternal using the same basic structures for centuries. They'll likely never change. You just find a new way to do the same thing that's always been done.

Quoted from George Willson Old? Hm, I don't know about old, really.

Yeah, but clearly you have a mullet, right? ;D

While I do remember when Achy-Breaky Heart was a hit, I grew up in suburbia, where mullets have never been in style.

Ahhhhh yes, mullets, acid washed jeans and high top Reeboks.  It's a surprise that didn't cathc on.

I've got hammered in this OWC.

I'm better when I take my time.  Not sure if I want to be revealed.

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  We all realize how hard it is to put something together in a week.  A less than spectacular OWC does not make you a moral failure or a bad human being.  We will mock you mercilessly though!

Quoted from seamus19382 A less than spectacular OWC does not make you a moral failure or a bad human being.

It's true.  I would say that everyone on here has had at least one OWC get totally panned, myself included.

Now I just need to get reading AND giving fair, detailed responses.

Quoted from jayrex I've got hammered in this OWC. I'm better when I take my time.  Not sure if I want to be revealed.

I think the problem is that sometimes people read other responses before they respond. Not even the reviewers are daring to be original it seems.

People use your own opinions please.

Quoted from JamminGirl People use your own opinions please.

What she said.

Quoted from Shelton What she said.

There goes Mike again.  Can't speak for himself.  Always agreeing with the opposite sex.  Funny, that same avatar you have happens to be the same picture of you that appears in my Fourth Edition American Heritage College Dictionary under 'whipped'.



:-)  What's up, by the way?  Long time no see.

Quoted from JamminGirl I think the problem is that sometimes people read other responses before they respond. Not even the reviewers are daring to be original it seems. People use your own opinions please.

Yes!  Find something in those TWELVE PAGES that no one else noticed!

Quoted from rc1107 There goes Mike again.  Can't speak for himself.  Always agreeing with the opposite sex.  Funny, that same avatar you have happens to be the same picture of you that appears in my Fourth Edition American Heritage College Dictionary under 'whipped'. :-)  What's up, by the way?  Long time no see.

Since we're on the subject of avatars, when did you join the hippie commune?

Nothing new here.  Just eatin' oranges and makin' IDs.

Quoted from seamus19382 Yes!  Find something in those TWELVE PAGES that no one else noticed!

I think the point there is that there are a lot of people bandwagonning their reviews off of others instead of writing their own. I write what I want to say before looking at the other reviews. Why would I repeat information? Because the more the writer hears the same thing, the more likely it is to be true. If everyone just says "me too," what has anyone learned, including the reviewer?

Yes, reviewing takes practice too. Write your own words and then look at everyone else's. I agree with a lot of what I didn't write, but that doesn't mean I have to write that I agree with it after I've saved my comments.

Quoted from George Willson I think the point there is that there are a lot of people bandwagonning their reviews off of others instead of writing their own. I write what I want to say before looking at the other reviews. Why would I repeat information? Because the more the writer hears the same thing, the more likely it is to be true. If everyone just says "me too," what has anyone learned, including the reviewer? Yes, reviewing takes practice too. Write your own words and then look at everyone else's. I agree with a lot of what I didn't write, but that doesn't mean I have to write that I agree with it after I've saved my comments.

I get what you're saying.  But again, in twelve pages there really isn't a lot to critique.  And if you're writing a review, and particularly a negative review, I'm not sure that pointing out the same things over and over is really helpful.  Just my opinion.

Quoted from Shelton Since we're on the subject of avatars, when did you join the hippie commune?

Ever since the ratio became 4 girls to 1 guy is when I hopped on that John Sunshine on My G*ddamn Shoulders Denver Bandwagon.

Quoted from JamminGirl I think the problem is that sometimes people read other responses before they respond. Not even the reviewers are daring to be original it seems. People use your own opinions please.

Okay, so you suggest that people read a script, form an opinion about it but as soon as they realise someone else has mentioned the same thing they should disregard their first opinion and come up with something else. Is that really an honest review?

If one person tells me my slugs are wrong and nine people don't I am gonna assume my slugs are fine. If ten people tell me my slugs are wrong I might start to think I am doing something wrong.

If something is wrong with a script then it is wrong, there is no point not mentioning just to be different. That also of course goes for things that are good about a script.

Quoted from JamminGirl I think the problem is that sometimes people read other responses before they respond. Not even the reviewers are daring to be original it seems. People use your own opinions please.

No offence JamminGirl, but I have just read your response to 'Down Under' where you quoted Lakewood's review in your own review and added this...

Quoted from JamminGirl I agree. It took a while for the script to move forward.

Not much more to say on that really.

Quoted from Grandma Bear The OWC's used to be fun. This one isn't!  :-/

Agreed. Although, I have to think it's all been worth it just for Gary's Hitler thing.

Quoted from JamminGirl People use your own opinions please.

Sorry... :(

Some people doesn't know all this is for fun. There's nothing to win. However, some of us lost their cold blood.

We're nothing, just some aspirant writers. For God's sake, let's not forget this!

Quoted from Murphy No offence JamminGirl, but I have just read your response to 'Down Under' where you quoted Lakewood's review in your own review and added this... Not much more to say on that really.

I read down under before I made a comment and if u read my review, apart from agreeing with lakewood on that singular issue, I echoed no one. I liked that the writer went with a tv magazine POV but the 'kidman is crazy' beat was repeated.

No point coming back to me JamminGirl, I am not looking for a fight. My point was clear enough.

Despite what you may have read over the last few days we are not really here to be judging each others reviews, just let people get on with reviewing however they feel is best and we will all get along great and learn something from it.

I know I sound hypocritical on that but in my case I had a stone in my shoe that needed taking out, I have already apologized for doing that so publicly. I can understand that somebody new to the site might think this is the norm - but it is not.

Just review scripts in your own way and let people review in their way. As long as everybody can do this without being unreasonable and rude in what they say then we do not have a problem.

lol! I don't fight. No need to explain to me. I was responding to your comment directed at me.

I remember the first one when less than a dozen people submitted and I think they were all very much regulars and not anonymous. We did enjoy it. But it was also new and no one knew what to expect from anyone else. Phil came up with a topic based on a contest he'd seen done in NY, and we all went with it. There were no joke entries, and I believe all (or most) put forth a solid effort.

Maybe everyone's gotten jaded with the whole process and think they can do it that much better. The thing is that this was never a complex exercise. It was always really simple in nature and just supposed to be a "see if you can do it" sort of thing. Now, there seems to be something to complain about. But like I said what seems like a long time ago in another thread, you are in no way obligated to participate or read or anything. I haven't always liked the topics that have been presented, and my response was to say nothing and not enter it if I didn't come up with anything.

This site is a group of people who enjoy writing. We read each others' work and comment on it. There's a lot you can learn from not only writing your own scripts, but reviewing others. You can see what that other person did differently, whether good or bad, and unlike watching movies where your comments mean nothing, here you can tell the author and they can potentially get something out of it.

Why say the same thing more than once? Well, think of it like a rejection. When rejections are sent, those who send them don't confer with anyone else in the industry. They send their own letters with their own (minimal) opinions, and the author can pile these letters together to see if there's a theme to them. The reviews should do basically the same thing.

Should you repeat what someone else said? Of course! If I don't see repetition in the comments, I figure person A had that opinion and no one else agreed so it's not worth changing. If several people write the same thing, I know there's something to it.

So take this whole challenge thing and any that follow (if they do, considering how negatively this one has spun) with a grain of salt. We're here to have fun and learn something, and if you don't feel that you can do that in this environment, then perhaps this isn't the right place for you. I have yet to sell a screenplay and I've written probably 60 of them from shorts to teleplays to feature lengths. I don't know it all, nor will I pretend to. I feel like I can still learn something, and I enjoy the comraderie of fellow writers who are struggling to make it as much as I am.

So let's stop attacking each other and actually get back to writing and reading and getting something out of this awesome site that Don continues to provide for us. At no charge to us, I might add, so I'm not complaining.

I think when we all review we try to add something else, different thoughts, rather than repeat over and over.  But there's no harm in agreeing with comments that have gone before.

The main point is, less of the ditto's and more of the constructional reviews.  Highlight a spelling mistake, point out the slugs, a different take on the montage, etc...

I want to learn from my peers like everyone else and I'm not learning from reading, "...this is crap/pointless..."

And so, I want to learn from the season pros on this site.

Reading other reviews on other people's scripts are also important where hints & tips have been mentioned.

I just hope this seasonal spring disorder gets behind us as this is the first one I'm experiencing.

I guess I'm not the only one regular who starts to be disappointed by the turning of the OWC. Like some of my friends before, I'm fed up of those pointless fights.

Quoted from Don (...) Please read THE RULES before you post.  Trust me, it will make for a happier experience. THE RULES 1. This discussion board is privately run for the discussion of screenwriting, movies, music and poetry.   We reserve the right to:     a. turn down any application to post for no apparent reason,       b. kick anyone off for violating the rules of the board,     c.  kick anyone off for being a jerk (or jerkette as the case may be),     d. kick anyone off for no apparent reason. 2. Be Civil 3. Do not be disrespectful of other members, do not put down other members of the board, do not attack or encourage other to attack a member of the board. (...) 11. When reviewing a script, you should back up negative comments by citing evidence from that script about which the comment is being made.  And never make a negative comment about a person. In a nutshell.  Be cool.  Be respectful of everyone on the board.  I reserve the right to ban anyone for not following the rules above OR for just being a jerk.  I also reserve the right to ban anyone without a warning or explanation.  It doesn't matter how much you have posted or whether or not you are a moderator (who thankfully have been pretty good about setting the example on the board). So, If you have hang-ups about the rules, here and only here is your forum to complain. Don

Quoted from George Willson So take this whole challenge thing and any that follow (if they do, considering how negatively this one has spun)

I, for one, hope that the challenges do continue.  I understand that there's been some controversy going on, but I've enjoyed greatly some of the stories that have come out of this challenge so far.  True, I didn't like a couple of them as well, but I've stated facts why I didn't like them.  The ones that I have liked, I've really enjoyed and probably never would have gotten the chance to read them ever if Phil hadn't chosen this theme and genre.

I think these challenges are definately a good thing and a great exercise and great for this site.  Imagine how many stories we might be robbed of if the challenges cease to continue.  Imagine what experience we may lose ourselves by not pushing to meet a deadline or pushing an idea that's not ours into a new, creative way.

There's not any other sites you can do things like this on and get such a diverse multitude of comments.

What do you guys mean? This OWC hasn’t been any fun?

I loved the variety of stories. Where else can I find scripts about talking squirrels, jizz on the mayo, Edmund the talking horse’s ass, or someone getting his creativity off by giving us Hitler’s entry video? Nowhere for this admission price!  The reviews of my story and others were mostly spot on or I could see their point if I squinted my eyes just so. The reviews were thoughtful, funny, annoying, one note, but so are scripts and most importantly us. I’d like to have a drink with you guys if we could ever agree on a beer.

And Pollyanna moves over so the new guy can sit down.

Can you imagine how much of a shit storm this would've been if the genre was comedy?  Seriously.

I strong recommend that this thread be locked as well as any other threads created in the similar vein.  And then every can just shut the f--- up.

Seriously.


Phil

You can tell Phil's mad when he starts repeating himself that that....

Quoted from Murphy You can tell Phil's mad when he starts repeating himself that that....

that that?

what are you mad about?


Phil

Soooo....the next challenge won't be a feature-length comedy?

;D

Oh it should be! That would be the best. Let's do it. Feature length comedy!

Everytime I see your avatar I'm picturing Ricky Gervais( Which is the point really, right?) commenting on the board.

Hahaha that's pretty funny :)

I just put him up there because he's my... well idol... to be honest. Can I be honest? Yeah? He's my idol, sue me! What ya gonna do, ya know? Right?

Haha the stuff I write is influenced by him a bit, I like to hope. To write something like The Office would be amazing. How good is it?! Aaannnddd I'm rambling again.

Anyways :)

What he does, I think, is write on the tiny, miniscule hum-drum everyday situations that come accross as hilarious to the person outside looking in. But he's a niche. Kinda like Larry David or Jerry Sienfeld. That's his own brand.

I've already started my elevator script.

Quoted from dogglebe that that? what are you mad about? Phil

Touché

We're almost to the end of the anonymous part of the challenge when the writers will be revealed. Without revealing my script, I do have a comment. I've gotten some comments on there being little suspense, the secret being so obvious, etc. Interestingly, though, the biggest secret in mine is buried in subtext and never spoken at all directly. Also interestingly, no one has commented a single word about it. Sure, the obvious has been brought up, but no one at all has even mentioned the actual secret. Maybe that's my fault as the writer, but I also wrote mine kind of like you would watch it. Nothing exists in the description without it being named or shown directly. I've gotten some flack over that too.

Well, apparently my secrets aren't as obvious as some think. The secrets everybody thinks are obvious are the ones I gave you. My main character has an entire layer of backstory that can be dredged up if you consider it carefully. It might also explain his motivations that people had some trouble with...

Hm... I didn't get a whole lot of credit, but then it's not as easy to read as "All You Need Is Love" either. Fascinating...

I read and commented on 31 so far.  I bashed 4 or 5, and went back and reread 2 of those, and posted new, better, more detailed feedback.

Yeah, weird OWC for sure.  I'm sure lots of the problems were caused by me, and I apologize for that.  It was never my intention.  I was quite harsh out of the gate, and I shouldn't have been.

I've still got a few to go but I've done more than half so far. I will finish them all by this weekend, even the p*ss taking ones.

It is kind of a bummer that you read and review 30 odd scripts but only get a handful of reviews for your own entry. Maybe it will change over the weekend when the names are revealed but I'm a little disappointed so far.

Because I didn't do ANY school work over break, I'm a bit behind this week and have had very little time to read any of the OWC scripts.  Rest assured I'll read at least 15 this weekend.

Sorry guys! (And girls)

At least I'm tan, right?

Hi Brian, good for you if you have read them all, just remember though that there is no expectation that you will. At least half of these scripts were probably written by people who do no read, what usually happens in busy OWC's is that people will try and read a few, often a good idea to read one for every review you have had. And then once the names are announced catch up on the regular contributers ones.

Once the names are revealed you will probably get some more reads.

I thought after a week we start guessing the authors and that it's not until later that their identities are revealed.

I was able to get a good number of reviews in this weekend since I was home for the holidays and now that my last paper has been turned in I'll try to catch up on all of the rest tonight. Hopefully as others have said, some of the reads/reviews will pick up once the identities are revealed.

Quoted from Brian M It is kind of a bummer that you read and review 30 odd scripts but only get a handful of reviews for your own entry. Maybe it will change over the weekend when the names are revealed but I'm a little disappointed so far.

Brian, when the names of the authors are revealed, I encourage everyone to take note of the authors who had time to submit an entry but found no time to read so much as one submission.

Then -- never, ever read anything submitted by these OWC parasites.

You get some every time, and they always tick me off.  This time, looks like you got quite a few.

I never expected everyone to read everything, that would be too much. I'm only trying to get through them all before the names are revealed so I can take a guess on who wrote what. That's the fun part in my opinion.

I was just saying because, as Pia mentioned, a lot of the reads are coming from people who are not taking part in the OWC. I do agree that a lot of the scripts are probably from people who are not regulars at this site and don't post on the boards though.

It'll be interesting to see how many new faces showed up for this OWC.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Just an observation... 32 scripts were entered, but the average number of reviews seem to be near 10 or 11 with some getting a lot more, but not necessarily more reviews, just banter. That also includes some people reading that did not enter even enter. Quite different from previous OWC's.  Just MHO of course...

Looks my motivation run back tonight (it's 00;37 PM) I understand why some ahave give up.  that's why I do my best to slowly review before MKIA comes around. Sometimes we dojn't need to close our eyes and pretend nothing happen. I'm not sure I will be here , or at least run, if things are not slow donnw (soory for the typos, regarding my sleeping pill)

MIchel 8)

How come certain on the reviews appear not in the recent posts section?

Okay...I guess it's confession time.  I wrote "Love is all you need".  It was kind of an experiment.  Would a script that had no thought or effort into it get more reads than one that did based on page count?...and the answer...as I guessed... was yes.  I wrote it in like 2 min drunker than shit at the time of its announcement and never looked back, but I knew when I did this it would get the most comments....kinda sad.  There are a few good ones here that don't have even half the reads because they are 12 pages long, most people seem to be into page count than quality.  I wasn't gonna ever admit to writing this but when I saw I got 3 times as many reads as most others I  figured I'd fess up, I  didnt even submit this with my name on it, but 31 replies...Jesus Christ, I wasn't expecting that with 30 or so entries.  There are some good ones in this entry and I hope they get the same amount of reads.  Never go by page count is my best suggestion, chances are if its less than 2 pages the writer didn't really give a shit, my script is proof.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Cheers dude! I think you proved a sad point! Btw, I read some good ones too, but I only read those with the fewest reads...

Did you mean views, or replies?  If you meant replies, you must have read mine, as it was near the bottom on views, and tied with the others at 10 for the lowest in replies, yet you did not review mine.   :'(

Quoted from Grandma Bear I picked the ones I read by looking at replies. I chose those with the lowest reviews/comments. Just trying to be helpful/supportive... However, the tone of some newbies complaining about comments turned me off. I quit reading. I will read more once the writers are revealed. Even those who caused a ruckus if they are regular contributors to the site.  :-)

Oh shiite!  My sarcastic post came off as whiny.  Sorry 'bout that!   ;D

Everyone is free to read and review what they wish.  I certainly haven't got them all.

Quoted from The boy who could fly Okay...I guess it's confession time.  I wrote "Love is all you need".  It was kind of an experiment.  Would a script that had no thought or effort into it get more reads than one that did based on page count?...and the answer...as I guessed... was yes.

The other problem with doing this is that it takes away legitimacy from the others doing the exercise. Sure, it's fine doing crap like that for fun, but what happens to someone who didn't participate and was genuinely curious about the kind of scripts that we came up with. He read this one and Memories and said, "wow, these people really suck in a week."

It's sort of akin to the second review on a script slamming the hell out of it. People bandwagon on that review and it takes about six more before its pulled out of the hole. People start with a random script, and it's total crap, and so their impression throughout is that the scripts are crap until they've hopefully read enough decent ones in a row to garner a better opinion for number fifteen (but apologies to 3-14, that didn't suck, but he also didn't give half a at's ass about because "all these suck").

Point is, yes, we're here to hve fun, but we're also here to get ahead in an impossible business. If this was the contest that Phil based the original idea on, would you have paid $45 to turn in "Love Is All You Need"? I suspect not, which is the reason contests have entry fees. They have a fee because they know that people serious enough to pay $45 will be serious enough to try and write a decent script.

So my suggestion here is to consider whether you'd pay money to enter your submission in a contest before submitting it. Would you risk your entire career on your little experiment? That's kind of like the question, "could you cut a page out of this script if I paid you $10,000?" The answer is rather obvious.

I liked what I submitted. I researched it and worked on it and felt I'd done something at least decent. I wasn't joking around at all. Will I ever submit it to be shot or anything? No, I doubt it. But I still put forth my best effort to be clever while doing it. It's a shame my best effort was judged through the filter of your worst. It basically degrades the value of the exercise for those who were curious and didn't participate (this time).

I won't be able to read them all before the name hit either, but I'll make sure I read the regulars if I haven't hit them yet (or at least those who discussed here and, of course, I'll read anyone's who read mine)

EDIT: Okay, it isn't as bad as The script that must not be named, but it's close. You'll never achieve that never of notoriety. Hey, that writer tried. They failed miserably, but they probably tried...and left their ass shining in the moonlight.

I don't know. I always thought the OWC was about experimenting.  The first one an experiment to see if I could write a short in a week.  The next one an experiment to see if I could follow the brief.  Then next one an experiment to see just how far I could push my script. The next one an experiment...I don't think that the experimenting ever ends and I think if it did I wouldn't want to be part of the OWC.

I think all the scripts this time were within the spirit of the OWC, even that All you need is love one.  Sometimes you just have to vote for Mickey Mouse.

  

Amid all the harsh criticism and wounded pride I've seen on the OWC boards I'm very impressed with the entries I 've read. Granted I've only looked at 5 so far I think the quality has been quite good, given the confined parameters regarding subject matter and time.

I've only been a member since September and I don't remember the October one so this is my first time in the SS community properly during one of these contests. The anonymity of the entries inevitably gives rise to some scathing, unabashed remarks but thats to be expected. I didn't enter myself but I'm really enjoying what people are able to come up with in such a short space of time, its a credit to everyone who submitted.

But people should be constantly reminding themselves of this when going to read them as it is a rather tough asssignment to begin with. I'm all for judging on merit and giving nothing less then your honest opinion,  that but try and keep it in mind the nature of the contest and its difficulty.

Well done to everyone who entered, and long may the entries I read from now on be as good as the ones hitherto.



OWC entries I've read thus far:

Edmund
Through The Looking Glass
House Of Usher
Guilt
Sweetie

Quoted from The boy who could fly Would a script that had no thought or effort into it get more reads than one that did based on page count?...and the answer...as I guessed... was yes.

Just look at the board titled "Short" and every other thread surrounding it and the point is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If you already knew the answer what did you prove?

Quoted from bert Brian, when the names of the authors are revealed, I encourage everyone to take note of the authors who had time to submit an entry but found no time to read so much as one submission. Then -- never, ever read anything submitted by these OWC parasites. You get some every time, and they always tick me off.  This time, looks like you got quite a few.

And our first winner, the author of Picnic0410.

*Applause, Applause*

Pia

"Now when the writers have been revealed, I guess I've got some reading to do."

-- I'm just curious as to why you are waiting for this to happen before reading?

Do you not feel its better to go in on the blind side, thus your review won't be biased based on the particular writer attached. I'm not saying that you do this, but we all have writers on here that we prefer over others and whether we realize it or not it does have an influence over how we review a certain script from a certain writer.

I was under the impression this was the whole point of the OWC; Honest, impartial critique.

Col.

Pia doesn't want to read the scripts of those who haven't reviewed any other scripts.  It has nothing to do with being impartial.

I think I may do the same.

I don't know if the question has been asked, but when will the writers be revealed?

Quoted from michel I don't know if the question has been asked, but when will the writers be revealed?

http://www.simplyscripts.com/unpro_short_exercise_04_09.html

Thanks Mike

T Higgins

Oh ok. It's a pity people are doing that, do they not know the wily regulars of SS are gonna be wise to it. (I guess they pray on goons like me) I didn't submit anything but I have enjoyed what I've read so far.

Quoted from Colkurtz8 T Higgins Oh ok. It's a pity people are doing that, do they not know the wily regulars of SS are gonna be wise to it. (I guess they pray on goons like me) I didn't submit anything but I have enjoyed what I've read so far.

He read some scripts.

Pia

Yeah Higgins filled me in on your motives, I see your point. Its just a shame it panned out like that.

This is indeed a dumbass question I know...How is the winner decided??

Shelton

"He read some scripts." -- Sorry, I must be stupid, what do you mean?

Quoted from Colkurtz8 Shelton "He read some scripts." -- Sorry, I must be stupid, what do you mean?

Nevermind.  There are a couple convos going on and I mixed yours up, thinking you were saying he didn't read anything.

Yep, a lot of animosity banging around here at the moment. I've never seen the boards so passionate. I think I'm gonna write a script chronicling the fall of SS due to the internal strife caused by the OWC. All out cyberlogical verbal warfare, how do you feel about being played by Fisher Stevens :P

Quoted from Colkurtz8 ...how do you feel about being played by Fisher Stevens :P

I think he'd love to play such a dynamic character, and would get GreeneStreet to fund the project 100% to do so.

Mike

Sweet as, we're thinking on our feet here. Just give some time to knock up an overlong, unworkable, self indulgent, badly formatted 140 page script with gratuitous ass, breast and inexplicable car chase sequences and we're good to go...Oh and you can handle the stimulating task of script editor. Think of it as a test, enjoy ;D

Quoted from Colkurtz8 This is indeed a dumbass question I know...How is the winner decided??

There is no winner.  This is a challenge. Everyone that submits a script wins.

I totally appreciate the OWC events we have.  I feel bad, after the fact that I didn't have the time to write anything within the confines of the time frame.

I think whether you write a submission or you read the submissions...both are doing their part.  

I do believe that by picking out those that wrote a piece, yet haven't reviewed is a bit of a "stinker" position to hold.  

It builds anamosity on the board and divides this happy family of writers on the SS.

A lot of what has been going on of late reminds me of a small town with nothing much to do and too much time on their hands so they resort to feeding on each other.

We have a tremendous resource and community here and whether we like it or not we need to keep our minds open to the differences in the thought, process and writing style  it brings to the table - the lessons it offers each and everyone of us...no matter how we contribute.

I'm certainly thankful to have found this site and I can honestly say I have learned a lot that I couldn't have gotten anywhere but here with this scenario of participation.

~m~

P.S.  No one ever responds when I write one of my "mommy scolding" pieces ;)  *wink* You're welcome to support or rebuff anytime.  :)

Quoted from MBCgirl I do believe that by picking out those that wrote a piece, yet haven't reviewed is a bit of a "stinker" position to hold.

However, I think that's in tune with the boards. It's give to get here. Give reviews, get reviews.  Someone who isn't doing that - whether it's the OWC or not - is always pointed out.  

Quoted from MBCgirl A lot of what has been going on of late reminds me of a small town with nothing much to do and too much time on their hands so they resort to feeding on each other.

From what I understand this meltdown happens every spring, and I can remember at least one other spring when it did.  I wouldn't worry too much about it - we're all creative people here and we can get a bit emotional at times - but I think underneath it all we're all the right sort.

Quoted from Grandma Bear He probably meant "who gets the iScript"?  :-)

No doubt, it'll be "Edmund".

Cornetto

My bad, I thought there was an official OWC "winner" at the end of each contest.


Secondly, I pretty much back up every MBCgirl has just said, this is a wonderful site and community.  Its our duty, both for ourselves and everyone participating to keep it that way.

Quoted from michel No doubt, it'll be "Edmund".

Where'd that come from, michel?

Quoted from MBCgirl A lot of what has been going on of late reminds me of a small town with nothing much to do and too much time on their hands so they resort to feeding on each other.

That sounds like a great idea for a film...

Holocaust in Hicksville, pop 376 375.

The inhabitants of a boring little dump in Indiana wake up one July 4th and realise they are bored witless. With nothing else to do they begin eating each other and before long the whole town is in on the act. Somebody is destined to remain the last one standing, the only question is who.

Quoted from Murphy That sounds like a great idea for a film... Holocaust in Hicksville, pop 376 375. The inhabitants of a boring little dump in Indiana wake up one July 4th and realise they are bored witless. With nothing else to do they begin eating each other and before long the whole town is in on the act. Somebody is destined to remain the last one standing, the only question is who.

Ah! Interesting.

This would be an excellent little idea. Especially if we know in advance they DO die, but the point is who survives longest, and what is it about them that made them survive longest!

Ahhh, I love a good zombie movie.

Quoted from mcornetto Where'd that come from, michel?

If I refer to the number of reviews, yours has the most of them. Well, you're just behind "Love is All you Need" and my "Memories", but I doubt they get any credit.

I never realised the name were revealed. Should this not be announced on the board too? Or have I completely missed that?

Quoted from michel If I refer to the number of reviews, yours has the most of them. Well, you're just behind "Love is All you Need" and my "Memories", but I doubt they get any credit.

I have just got back to read your comment on your own script, very sneaky Michel, especially for pointing out the joke. hahaha, good try. ;-)

Quoted from michel If I refer to the number of reviews, yours has the most of them. Well, you're just behind "Love is All you Need" and my "Memories", but I doubt they get any credit.

Number of reviews has nothing to do with it. What has happened in the past, and I can't guarantee it's the way it's going to happen this time, is that out of a pool of scripts chosen by the readers, three are chosen by Don as possible iScripts. Those three scripts are sent to iScripts and they select the one that fits their talent and image atm.

Don e-mailed everyone who submitted a OWC and asked for their 3 favorites. I assume the 3 with the most votes will be sent off to iScripts so that they can pick one from there that they like the best.

Quoted from bobtheballa Don e-mailed everyone who submitted a OWC and asked for their 3 favorites. I assume the 3 with the most votes will be sent off to iScripts so that they can pick one from there that they like the best.

I don't think it's that clear cut.

Pia

My "duty" to read the OWC's.

I've read quite a few scripts here over the years. I don't feel reading the OWC's are my duty at all!  I do it because I like to read and hopefully I can offer the author some useful comments.

-- My comments weren't specifically directed towards the OWC entries or that one should feel obliged to comment on other members scripts. That is of course up the the discreation of each memeber and is by no means mandatory. It was a general remark, that we should try to get along and appreciate everyone elses opinions, styles and point of views in order to keep the site as good and invaluably helpful as it is.

I know is wishful thinking, in life things simply don't work that way, but we can always do our own bit towards providing such a healthy and stimulating environment here.

Apologies for not making myself clear earlier.

Agreed.

Just want to say, kudos to everyone who entered. I really wanted to read and review all 30-odd OWC scripts, but having come back after a few days away I'm afraid my drive and determination to do so has evaporated. Apologies to those I haven't got round to. You know what, here's what I'll do: if I haven't reviewed your OWC script and you'd like me to, just PM me and I PROMISE to give you the same kind of 5-category, marks-out-of-10 review I've given every script.

Since apparently we don't get to pick a winner, I thought I'd post the scores of the 15 I did manage to read and rate. I have no idea, and never did, about who wrote what, BTW.

OF SOUND MIND – 40/50
ALWAYS AND FOREVER – 35/50
A GOODBYE PARTY – 34/50
FAMILY DAY – 33/50
GUILT – 33/50
EDMUND – 29/50
FAMILY PICNIC – 28/50
RIVERSIDE AFTERNOON – 27/50
TWO BEERS – 26/50
OPERATION – 26/50
PICNIC SNITCH – 25/50
HIDDEN – 25/50
ADOPTED – 24/50
MEMORIES – 22/50
LOVE IS ALL YOU NEED – 19/50

So well done to whoever wrote 'Of Sound Mind'! You are my OWC winner. Unless, of course, somebody asks me to read a script which turns out to be better... Honorable mentions for Always and Forever, A Goodbye Party, Family Day, and Guilt.

This was my first experience with the One Week Challenge. I enjoyed it.

I didn't get the chance to read all of the entries, but I was able to read and review a little over twenty of them.

I tried to spend a good amount of time with each entry, and I hope the writers of each script I reviewed felt I was honest, fair, and more importantly, helpful.

It would be boisterous of me to name my three favorites publicly, but I will say excellent job to the writers of Sweetie, Edmund, Always and Forever, The Weekend Break, A Goodbye Party, and Brother Joe. Of the 30+ scripts entered, I especially liked these.

Quoted from Shelton http://www.simplyscripts.com/unpro_short_exercise_04_09.html

It's funny to see my name up like that. I love it!

*Yeah, I know I have an unusual name. My mother must've had a kick out of naming two of her daughters 'Fraya' and 'Trelan'*

Wow, I'm slow. I just got that the names had been posted. Well, so Operation was my brain child, and I just did a lot of explaining on the thread if anyone is interested. Perhaps for such a simple exercise, I was way too cerebral. But you know, I did a lot of research...

Oh, and I definitely still have some reading to do. I'd explain why I fell behind on it, but I don't want to jinx that whole thing.