2nd Draft
Kosher by Cameron Dueker - Short, Horror - A late night pit stop for a young couple turns deadly at a local deli when the kitchen runs outs of pastrami. 15 pages - pdf, format

Writer interested in feedback on this work


1st Draft
Kosher by Cameron Dueker - Short, Cannibal Horror - Kosher - A late night pit stop for a young couple turns deadly at a local deli when the kitchen runs outs of pastrami.  16 pages - pdf, format

Writer interested in feedback on this work

I get what you were going for, though there were some slight issues.

The first one being that Josh turns to John, and then back again. Also, when you said "glum Gus," I thought you were referring to another character.

Some of the dialogue was a bit expositional, like at the end with the city clerk. Other than that it was fun, and could be better with some polishing.

Thanks, changed John into a Josh early on and thought I caught all the prior uses.  The end gave me some fits trying to wrap it all up quick to fit in the 15 pages. I didn't want Ethel to die cause the villain always sneaks away and I wanted some kind of unnerving twist at the end. That was the best I could come up with but I'm open to other ideas.

Quoted from CameronD Thanks, changed John into a Josh early on and thought I caught all the prior uses.  The end gave me some fits trying to wrap it all up quick to fit in the 15 pages. I didn't want Ethel to die cause the villain always sneaks away and I wanted some kind of unnerving twist at the end. That was the best I could come up with but I'm open to other ideas.

The idea of a "deli on the outskirts of town serving human meat" is good, for sure. But how about making Ethel a larger woman? Think of the cliched diner employee and it would work here, at least that's what I'd do. That way, it's believable that Ethel can hold a 20 something year old man at bay while she slices his hand in a meat slicer.

If you wanted to expand this, show Edsel collecting people for meat. Maybe they have an accomplice at the local hospital who brings them people that have just died? Something along those lines.

I agree. Edsel was until the very end an EMT at the scene of the traffic accident who was bringing the bodies by to mom to carve up. But it was clunky to explain all that at the end, though I have a better idea how now how to do it.

Quoted from CameronD I agree. Edsel was until the very end an EMT at the scene of the traffic accident who was bringing the bodies by to mom to carve up. But it was clunky to explain all that at the end, though I have a better idea how now how to do it.

Kidnapping unsuspecting people and then transporting them to the diner would probably work better. Too much of a paper trail for an EMT to go out on a call, then collect the body, but not show up to the hospital?

By the way, check out mine - American Cannibal.

Out of the gate I super love your title and love your logline. For me, this is where it all begins. If I do not like the title or the logline is hard to read and complicated I'm already dreading reading but this is a great job and I'm actually looking forward to reading this....so taking notes as I read along.

A phone battery dies. Sex in the bathroom. Horror for you ;) lol teasing but sex and dead batteries always find their way into these things it seems. :)

The dialogue is really good in this. The writing is easy to read.

"put some real meat in my mouth" ... seriously? LOL

typo pg 5 downby

Well... this was good. Well written and fast to read. Great dialogue. Felt like real people(crazy of course).

GREAT job writer.

I read the whole script.  Lots and lots of problems on every page...actually too many to really go into detail, so I'll just address some story issues and a few of the major things you could easily fix up.

Basically, this is a story we've all read and seen many times before, and there's nothing here to make this fresh, memorable, or even remotely believable.  In fact, much of this reads like a comedy...not sure if that's intentional or not, but for me, it doesn't work at all.

Your setup out of the gate is very problematic, as it's very unclear where they are, which is important to your story.  Sure, this could be shot or even set anywhere, but for the sake of the read, it needs to be somewhere we can get a clear visual of.  Using "CITY OUTSKIRTS" doesn't work for me at all.

Then you go to "JOHN'S CAR", but the characters in the car are Josh and Amber.  I think you go back and forth with either the male being Josh or John.  The funny thing is that the 2 names are so close, it doesn't matter at all which name you decided on.

Neither character has any character at all.  Neither seems real, and because of that, I really don't care about either.

Back to the setup and the dialogue that tries to set things up - it makes no sense at all, and is obvious very little thought went into this.  Where are they coming from?  Where are they going?  Where is that there's basically only 1 road or freeway to get to where they're going - just doesn't make sense about a 9 hour drive vs a 5 hour drive coming in.

Same issue when we get to the Kosher Deli - you didn't set it up, so we can "see" it, and how the action plays out inside.

In the same scene, without any breaks, Officer Larry is eating his sandwich, then walking "out" past the counter, where Ethel is.  Way to much unnecessary banter in this scene, also.  Just doesn't work or come off remotely believable.

Then, at this "counter" Ethel has samples of meat to hand out?  And the meat is just so amazing?  I don't buy any of this.

From here, it's completely predictable and cliche.

The stuff about the frozen gun, and then being thawed under water comes off as very hokey - could it work?  maybe, but here, it reads very false.

The stuff about slicing Josh's hand in the slicer reads very false and laughable.

The stuff about the fight with the arm and broom?  Man...no...

Sorry, but nothing here that I can see is gonna work, but you did meet the challenge and very few were able to, so good on you.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

Thanks Pale. It was fun to write so I'm glad you thought it was a fun quick read. Of course I had to put in a sex scene. This couldn't be a real horror film without one!

And thanks Dreamscale. Very helpful input and I agree on most of it. Sorry for any comma abuse. We don't get along I fully admit. It's something I really need to work on.

The John/Josh stuff I thought I caught and will redo in the revision. But you are right that Josh and Amber are boring. I think it might build character to make Josh a bit of a weakling which would help explain how Ethel beats him up so easily. Of course with no mean on his bones he wouldn't be good to eat, but that makes for a good line to throw in.

I will go back and add in more detail about where they are at and driving to. You are right about overusing CITY OUTSKIRTS.

I liked the frozen gun. Would it really work the way I wrote it? It worked for the story. I'll let the mythbusters decide if its confirmed or not.

The WHOLE idea was centered around the meat slicer. I should probably make a bigger deal off it in that case. In college, I worked many years at a deli and always thought it would make for a great location in a horror film. Those slicers are no joke the idea of one slicing a person into extra thin or thick cuts horrified me. For research I googled circular meat slicer accidents. Not a good idea. Ewww! Yuck!

I hope Ethel was liked. I pictured as a bigger old lady instead of a frail and weak one but I see now I didn't describe her that way. I'll fix that next time.

So for now I'll try to squeeze in some more character to Josh and Amber as well as better cement what they are doing. I'll cut down the dialogue when they walk in with Officer Larry to keep the story moving. Sex scene is staying. Frozen gun is staying. I'll expand the hand slice scene a bit more and make Edsel the EMT once more with fresh bodies delivered to mom. Hopefully that won't kill the 15 page limit. That's a lot to cram in, but I know I can do it.

The hard part is staying away from cliché. It's a horror movie. There are so many clichés involving horror it's hard to avoid them all. I instead tried to embrace them with my own take. I think that's what most horror is these days anyway. The execution is more important than the premise.

Hey Cameron.

I don't think I'd call this full on horror -- more of a horror light. The scene with the slicer had me pulling my hand back! So that was good. The title, logline and breezy style all work together to give it that horror light feel. The cop at the end clinched it.

A  few nits "Jewish bitch" and "put some real meat in my mouth" were too much.  Mops aren't the most punishing weapon available in a kitchen. Didn't know a frozen gun wouldn't fire (too bad Mythbusters has ended).
As far as story and characters adjustments, nothing to suggest that wouldn't change what you're doing.

Gary

This definitely has potential. The story is a simple "trapped with a crazy killer" type deal, which is fine, as long as the execution is great. If the characters are compelling, dialogue is tight, and descriptions are vivid, I'll enjoy the hell out of this story.

Biggest issue is the characters. Josh and Amber just don't have any personality. Here's a suggestion character-wise...

Maybe make Josh domineering and Amber unsure of herself. So he makes a bigger deal about her frequent bathroom breaks. He snaps at her for taking too long to decide what she wants to eat. Amber could initially not want to return her food with the hair but he forces her to go back and confront Ethel. In the end, Amber toughens up and believes in herself and survives.

Of course, that's just one idea. Do whatever you think works best for this story. But you gotta give the reader some reason to stick along for their journey.

Quoted from MarkItZero This definitely has potential. The story is a simple "trapped with a crazy killer" type deal, which is fine, as long as the execution is great. If the characters are compelling, dialogue is tight, and descriptions are vivid, I'll enjoy the hell out of this story. Biggest issue is the characters. Josh and Amber just don't have any personality. Here's a suggestion character-wise... Maybe make Josh domineering and Amber unsure of herself. So he makes a bigger deal about her frequent bathroom breaks. He snaps at her for taking too long to decide what she wants to eat. Amber could initially not want to return her food with the hair but he forces her to go back and confront Ethel. In the end, Amber toughens up and believes in herself and survives. Of course, that's just one idea. Do whatever you think works best for this story. But you gotta give the reader some reason to stick along for their journey.

Ooh! Even better! Make Josh a jerk and douche so the story is more about Amber. That's simple yet great. Perfect! That's why  I love collaborating. The give and take between minds is so helpful. I read somewhere long ago that was Hitchock's favorite thing to do, BS'ing about the film during the concept stage. At that point, the movie was already made in his mind. All that was left to him after that was the boring part. Actually filming it. :)

On page 3, and I could already cut/tighten a lot of this dialogue.

That sex scene came out of nowhere... unless the humam pastrami is an aphrodisiac?  I'll keep reading.  ... oooff that meat in my mouth line...

There was no buildup to this at all.  Pretend people who don't know the challenge are reading this.  There should have been ominous hints and foreshadowing before the human head reveal.  You could still do that in a short.

Why would her son say "I'm back from the store?"

Ethel's son's name is Edsel?

I do like the thru-line of the accident playing in the script, I'll give you that.

A wet gun wouldn't fire if I'm to believe movies I've seen.  Dabbing it with paper towel wouldn't do the trick.

Eh, maybe there's a good story here, but this felt rushed.  The dialogue was shaky and there wasn't any buildup.  Stuff just happened.  Sweet old lady all of a sudden becomes murderous cannibal.  Good effort, but needs work.

Hey, Cameron, I'm gonna read this and let you know what I think:  Here goes:

Page 2 you say, John and Amber.  Isn't that Josh?


If Officer Larry has a rotund belly, don't we need to know that in the description of him?

Wait, I thought Amber had to pee first??

And wouldn't the patrons know they both went in there?

You know, I thought this was gonna be a comedy the way your logline reads, it isn't.

I also can't imagine this old lady doing all this fighting...

You say that she's landing real blows on Josh, but, just one segment down, you say how they are stalemated.  When did that happen??

Wait, so, the old lady kills a cop, and DOESN"T take the gun??

Why would Amber run away when the old lady is locked in the freezer??

You have Amber firing the gun, then stepping over the kid's body.  I think we need to know the gun hit him, fatally...

Not bad.  Tighten it up a bit, fix the Josh/John, give them a bit of a personality, make the son not handicap,  and this is pretty solid.

Dan

Cameron, the whole Jo(s)h(n) thing confused me, so I'll pass and then come back and re-read.

Liked the opening bt it started to lose me when Josh's phone rings at the wrong moment, felt too coincidental and Ethel getting the better of him twice felt like a stretch.

But there was a lot to like too, the hand slicing made me laugh and the Jewish bitch line too...

Not sure I really got the ending in the Police station though.

Take 2! And... action!

Not too shabby. A few minor mistakes, nothing a good rewrite can't fix.

Good job.

Just a heads up to Kosher 2.0. I did fix the Josh/John mistake and made some small tweaks to the dialogue and action. Josh I tried to make more of an ahole but I didn't push it hard as I didn't want him totally unlikable. The fight between Josh and Ethel should make more sense at the end. But the base story and plot is still much the same so if anybody is going to take the time to reread, just know the story is nearly identical so don't expect a huge rewrite on this one.

But if you haven't read it, I'd value feedback from fresh eyes. I hope the story reads better as a result of these changes.

Thanks!

You left three JOHNS intact on page 4.

And three more on page 5.

Quoted Text JOHN JOSH Here we go again

Here we go again on my own! Going down the only road I've never known! Like a drifter, I was born to walk alone! But I've made up my miiiiind! I ain't wasting no more tiiiime! :D 8)





"tiptoes" can be one word.

Comma issues.

The muffled laughter doesn't really work as a parenthetical. Write it as action instead. You're telling them how to say the line, but you don't give them a line.

Edsel is dumber than shit.  ;D Did this dude ever go to school? His dialogue reads like he's mentally disabled. Is this your intention?

Also... I don't think there are many people today named Ethel who are younger than 80. That name is about as extinct as Norman, Abner or Richard.

Once again, a pretty solid read.

For the most part, I agree with Chris.  However, Cameron, one thing I still have issues with is how dumb everyone acts.

I still don't know why Amber is allowed to leave at the end.  What happened to Ethyl?

Oh I grew up with an Abner, so there's at least one under 80😀.

Why wouldn't the cops be looking for one of their own?
Perhaps if they had a wall dedicated to all the missing people or something.

Best luck with it.
Dan

[quote=Eruption]You left three JOHNS intact on page 4.

And three more on page 5.



GOD DAMMIT! I suck.

Yeah, Edsel was a bit slow as I wrote him.

The idea was Ethel hears the gun shots, knows her son is dead, (I mean she can see it on the security cam though I didn't have her watching it specifically I know) and she bolts. That and I was getting close to the 15 page limit and felt like Ethel dying at the end would be a cop out and not in line with the 80's slasher vibe I was going for.

Also, I spent like an hour on the rewrite he night before it was due so I didn't spend much time at all I admit here. Life.

Thanks for the reads though. I appreciate it. I will get to more rereads this week when I'm free.

I still feel like you can just open with showing the traffic and streamline this first page.
I can get the exact same idea of these characters with 1 line of dialogue each.  Josh is antsy, Amber is passive/hungry and her phone died.  You can show that.  Know what I’m saying?  Don’t think lines like “fuck my life” ever enhance a script.  Little things, but important imo.

I can’t necessary picture a “jewish woman” and as far as I remember that doesn’t play into the plot, so no point describing her as that.  We know it’s a Kosher joint already, so that’s something the reader can just assume if it was really bugging them.  Officer gets a paragraph intro, but all we know about our 2 leads is that they are boyfriend and girlfriend.  Just something to keep in mind.

Again, the friskiness still comes out of left field.  And you kept that “real meat in my mouth” line.  Ahhh, come on.

Doesn’t seem like you changed too much from the the initial draft.  I think the idea is a familiar one, and nothing really sets it apart.  The dialogue needs to be a lot stronger, there’s too much “what are you doing?”  “I’m doing this” type stuff.  that reads pretty bad on the page.

The structure needs work too.  Open on them in traffic with the Kosher sign glowing like a beacon in the distance.  Couple lines, set their dilemma (I gotta be here tomorrow but this damn traffic!  My phone’s dead.) then mention the sign “we might as well pull off.  I gotta pee.”  Cut to something ominous happening within the pastrami joint.  A customer telling Ethel how good her food is.  Ethel “would you like to see the process?”  then leave.  Pick back up with the couple entering.  No Officer Larry.  Ethel comes out and go from there.  No sex scene, etc.  That’s all filler, and I think you can really make the Deli the star it deserves to be.

Hey Cameron,

your logline is friggin' Awesome.
I liked the idea of two teenager ending up in an fucked-up deli and fighting for their lifes.
And nice move by using best-practices like making one of them (Amber) really naughty.
Like already mentioned before: some sayings were way too much xD!
But all in all; Great one.

Keep it up,

Pedro

Irreverent meat-and-potatoes horror with loads of gore, cheap jokes, and gratuitous sex. I dig it. Some of the humor makes for some crucial eye-rolling, but it fits, and the writing is strong enough so as I wouldn't call it into question. It's also been a while since I read some proper gore fare that wasn't uber-problematic. I particularly enjoyed the use of severed limb as weapon and wouldn't liked to have seen more of it, perhaps with some severed limb as shield to go along with it.

Characters are more or less genre stereotypes, which is fine, except for Josh. He takes on the role as complainer-in-chief but not in a fun, idiotic way that'd make his death more thirst-quenching; he seemed strangely indignant, as if Amber had done something to him (the "moral police" line in particular, which I didn't get, suggested this). He was a buzzkill but without any of the cartoonish trappings that would've made him a better fit for the genre. Not sure what his deal was, but he was somehow boringly unpleasant.

Elmer was a little strange. Obviously, he's much more in line with the Leatherface model, but I found him only subtly dimwitted when you could've really hammered us over the head with it and made him an outright imbecile, i.e. more entertaining. If he wasn't meant to be dimwitted, you've got issues. Either way, I'd scrap the "Why are you in the bathroom line." Way too nonsensical without even necessarily being stupid; why would anyone be in the bathroom?

Biggest issue for me was how arbitrary the cannibals' schemes were. They let Officer Larry go, but clearly they aren't above killing cops. Ethel kills Josh (and attempts to kill Amber) but only after the sandwich mishap. Would she have been perfectly willing to let them go if nothing had come up? She makes note of a catering order but mentions it on a complete whim, whereas if they had an actual order to fill, they might be going about this all differently. I had no sense of how this shop was supposed to function, so all the violence seemed random as a result.

I also don't think you played up the Jewish angle at all. Kosher deli -- okay... check. But beyond that, you note that Ethel is Jewish in her description but not in any way onscreen, and you have the "Jewish bitch" joke that is funny... why? How "Jewish" is Ethel supposed to come off? Of course, by ramping up the references, you run the risk of pissing off a ton of people, but you called the script "Kosher," set it at a Jewish deli, and made a point of making one of the characters Jewish... do you really wanna go only halfway here? I don't think so, given how over-the-top everything else is.

Consequently, all this sent me on a Wikipedia romp for all things kosher. Ironically, there's nothing in this script that is kosher, even at a glance. Humans fail the basic criteria for kosher mammals, and even if they didn't, you don't kill off your characters in a kosher way. Of course, it'd be a little rich to say your script should conform to these tenets. I just think it's kinda hilarious, given the title.

Now that I think of it, it could be fun to note the absurd lack of kosher behavior on display here. Any one of the characters could mention it, or you could turn it into a gag somehow. Could be funny.

Some random things that were weird. I'd double-check the logistics of using the frozen gun. Why would the cop on the 911 call laugh (for a second, I thought Larry was in on the murders and that it was him on the phone laughing for that very reason)? How would Larry know there was a homicide at his favorite deli but not know that they were the ones who donated the free lunch (who else would it be)? Also, the ending in general just sorta peters out, with nothing to be said about Amber or Ethel's fate.

Anyway, not a bad effort. Sorta fun, and some of the rough edges actually contributed to the vibe. Still some issues, though. I'd give it another pass or two. I think it's a decent script but could be better.

Hey Pedro, thanks! I'm glad you could appreciate what I was going for with the script. Was just a fun idea to try and write, and as a kid who grew up on 80s slasher flicks I wanted to try and make my own spin on them.

Conz, thanks for the re-read. Yeah, I didn't change too much as I said in an earlier post. Just small tweaks here and there. But judging from what you and others have said, I do need to work on making the deli more interesting. I don't know if it needs to be the star of the film, but as I wrote this currently it's really just any deli. More atmosphere I think is what is needed. It also seems the scene where they walk in and order is clunky. I may just cut it all out and have them walk in, order, then bam, sit and eat. Get straight to the story.

And I'm keeping the meat in the mouth line. Sorry. :)

James, those are great points. Josh was written to be bland (never a good idea I know) in the first draft and in the 2nd it was suggested to make him more of a prick. I tried a little but the lesson here is there's little room for subtlety in a short. All the characters suffer that actually and I need to fix that for draft 3 and really push personalities. Your Leatherface comment gave me an idea with Edsel, what if if was some kind of deformed mute? Might make for a bit more horror while serving the same role in the story. I think I can push Ethel with some research by having her dialogue be more inclusive of some slang.  

Yeah, the Kosher title was just a fun play on words, I never thought about it much while writing.

Thanks for the kind words. I'd like to sink some more time in this then resubmit and everybody's input has been super helpful.  

Quoted from CameronD Your Leatherface comment gave me an idea with Edsel, what if if was some kind of deformed mute? Might make for a bit more horror while serving the same role in the story.

Meh. I think that'd work fine but perhaps just that... fine. I think you can do better. I like that he speaks and that Ethel can have someone to bounce words off of. It's a relationship to explore with some interesting possibilities. Of course, though, it's your script, and if you want a deformed mute, I don't think it'd be hard to squeeze into the story you've got at all.

BTW I mistakenly called Edsel Elmer in my review. My bad. I remember his name being something antiquated but neglected to verify in the script for some reason. Edsel is a much better name, for the record.

I guess I'm a bit late to this but i saw it in this weeks unproduced and gave it a read. I liked this one a lot.

It was that Schlocky horror that i like. Reminded me of Hobo With a Shotgun, especially with the meat slicer and the bathroom sex scene. I can see it shot flooded with different neon lights and crazy Old time Peter Jackson camera movement.

While the whole restaurant selling human thing has been done before, with the right director you could make a really cool looking short.