Are you saying that it's ok to commit suicide as long as you have no family and can do it in a neat and tidy way so no one will find the body disturbing? Or better yet, not find it at all?

I have to be honest here, but as someone who knows several people who's done this... I'm appalled that you seem to file them all under selfish... I knew them... they were not selfish people.

I said that, unless you have absolutely no friends or family, your death will have an impact on others.  And I didn't say that all people who committed suicide were selfish.  Earlier, I mentioned that I thought that terminally ill people committing suicide is different.


Phil

I thought I'd put this thread to bed by quoting the funniest line from the movie Tropic Thunder:

Jeff, Kirk, and Kevin have just learned Alpa is gay.

Jeff Portnoy: Alpa, if you untie me, I will literally suck your dick, right now.
Alpa Chino: Man, I told you for the last time, I love tha pussy!
Jeff Portnoy: I'll cradle the balls, stroke the shaft, work the pipe, and swallow the gravy. Get it over here, buddy. Let's do this.



Phil

IMHO the subject of this thread is not a laughing matter...

IMHO, Biggs shouldn't get this attention.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe IMHO, Biggs shouldn't get this attention. Phil

That's the truth. The fact people obsess about this garbage shows that it works.

Quoted from Death Monkey So blue collar households with only one breadwinner exist in a moral vacuum where suicide isn't permissable, unlike, say, white collar upper middle class WASPS where suicide is a-okay 'cause daddy already saved for little Mitch and Bonnie's college fund? Really? The degree to which suicide is ethical is determined by your social standing all of a sudden? Then it's a really a practical question isn't it? Suffice his kids would be taken care of financially, then the argument vanishes... Let's for the sake of argument say that only people whose kids had left home and were financially independent, would be elligible for suicide, would you be cool with that? No, let's take it one further. Only people who didn't have any immediate familiy were elligible.

No, you completely misinterpreted what I said.  Unfortunately for this debate, I just got back from Trans-Siberian Orchestra and my mind is still rocking out and I can't clearly write my thoughts, so I will respond to this tomorrow.

Goodnight

I can't speculate why he did it. Nor can I blame the chat where he did it. Look, some one online says to me, hey I'm killing myself, check it out. I'm not going to believe him. That's the simple fact.

I mean it's absolutely your right to take your life. It's a tragic choice but it's something that is still a right. You want to 86 yourself then I can't stop you. I can try to deter you, but I cannot force you to live if you don't think you can.

However, I don't think anyone but the kid is to blame.

Just to mark my exit in this thread ('cause I feel like this could be one of those londwinded debacles wher people end up getting pissed at each other), I thought I'd make my case one last time and leave it at that.

I think the notion that Phil presents, that you should weigh the emotional repercussions on the people who might find your body higher (because it might 'freak them out') than the suicidal's right to end his life is extremely selfish on the part of society. Suicide is one of the most basic rights there is. Does that mean that I think you should do it if you have a family that depends on you? No. I don't think you should get an abortion if you find out your kid is the "wrong" gender either, but I still support abortion as a right - as a principle - even though there are circumstances where I would disagree with it.

Because isn't Abortion selfish? But I would trust that on this board most of you would agree that it's a right. It's your own body, and that ultimately applies to suicide as well.

So what do we do? Do we set up a Suicide Committee where you have to send in an application and they will gauge if your life is shitty enough, if your're hopeless enough, if your exit is inconspicuous and discreet enough to meet the Kafkian standards of Uncle Sam?

By all means we should work to stop suicide by talking to people, by engaging them before they do it and all that. Because I'm sure many suicides can be avoided. But if someone truly wants to take his or her life, then we can't force them to go on living. And really what kind of parent would you be if you "sucked it up" and repressed your burgeoning suicidal tendencies? I wonder if that's gonna be a good home to grow up in...I mean as long as we're "thinking of the children".

Well, that's all I have to say about that.

For the record one of my mom's best friends committed suicide when I was 8.

No, my example was perfectly valid and still is.  

Yes, obviously having a suicidal parent would have an effect on a child---but wouldn't having a parent kill themselves ultimately be worse both in the short and long run?  Or bringing in the factors of this thread; perhaps he's not suicidal at all...perhaps he's just had a really bad day and maybe he's not the most mentally strong person out there.  Seriously, though.  Can you really justify a guy killing himself and leaving his family behind?  Simply because "it's his life"?  Whatever happened to personal responsibility?  Whatever happened to duty and sucking it up?  

Quoted from Death Monkey The very notion that one has a responsibility to stay alive for the sake of others is in my humble opinion so incredibly misguided and narrowminded that I don't even know where to begin with a proper reply.

Because leaving your family and friends and whatever other duties you have isn't a problem at all.  Because no one today wants to exercise personal responsibility.  I wouldn't say that opinion's narrowminded, I'd say the one giving the OK to completely abandon your life is narrowminded...my most humble opinion, of course.

This has nothing to do with social status.  You made the extreme example of comparing the decision of suicide with buying a TV.  Both are selfish?  Okay.  Both have the same weight?  Get outta here.  Killing yourself when you have great personal responsibility, not selfish?  Hmmm.

I've had a few friends who have considered suicide before(some were at different levels, from just thinking about it to actually taking action).  None of them went through with it.  When they had begun the recovery process, all of them told me "I was being selfish" and also mentioned stuff about how their friends and family would have been devastated.  Yeah, it's their life, but "when you got a job to do, you gotta do it well," whatever that may be(and that quote isn't referring to suicide just to avoid any confusion ha-ha).

Obviously I'm sticking to one extreme here with the family guy but I think it speaks loud enough volumes.  There's no justifiable reason for him to kill himself IMO, so I really don't believe there's a justifiable reason for anyone else too, either.  Yes, life sucks, but things can get better.  You just have to gut it out!  There's no reason to take your own life.  It's a gift that you should use in every capacity.  

You know how a lot of people in concentration camps survived?  Just the thought of a better world outside of the camp gates was enough to keep a lot of those folks sane.  Just the hope that if they could gut this out they'd arrive to something better.  Check out Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz.  Good read.

Abortion and terminally ill is another discussion entirely and probably one that could go on for days.

Quoted from greg No, my example was perfectly valid and still is.   Yes, obviously having a suicidal parent would have an effect on a child---but wouldn't having a parent kill themselves ultimately be worse both in the short and long run?  Or bringing in the factors of this thread; perhaps he's not suicidal at all...perhaps he's just had a really bad day and maybe he's not the most mentally strong person out there.  Seriously, though.  Can you really justify a guy killing himself and leaving his family behind?  Simply because "it's his life"?  Whatever happened to personal responsibility?  Whatever happened to duty and sucking it up?

I never justified a guy committing suicie and leaving his family. Not everything that should be legal is moral. I wouldn't justify a guy with a loving family commit adultery, but I wouldn't wanted it to be illegal. What I'm saying is, that it's within his right by virtue of principle. And yes, because it is his life. Whatever happened to personal freedom?

Quoted Text Because leaving your family and friends and whatever other duties you have isn't a problem at all.  Because no one today wants to exercise personal responsibility.  I wouldn't say that opinion's narrowminded, I'd say the one giving the OK to completely abandon your life is narrowminded...my most humble opinion, of course.

I'm curious, are you pro-life? Because that exact argument can be applied to abortion.  Personal freedom VS personal responsibility.

Quoted Text This has nothing to do with social status.  You made the extreme example of comparing the decision of suicide with buying a TV.  Both are selfish?  Okay.  Both have the same weight?  Get outta here.  Killing yourself when you have great personal responsibility, not selfish?  Hmmm.

Hmmm, indeed. Here's what I wrote in my very first post in this thread:

Quoted Text Is it selfish? Well of course it is.

Quoted Text I've had a few friends who have considered suicide before(some were at different levels, from just thinking about it to actually taking action).  None of them went through with it.  When they had begun the recovery process, all of them told me "I was being selfish" and also mentioned stuff about how their friends and family would have been devastated.  Yeah, it's their life, but "when you got a job to do, you gotta do it well," whatever that may be(and that quote isn't referring to suicide just to avoid any confusion ha-ha).

Let's not break out the anecdotes now. They are not arguments. And again, I already agreed that suicide is selfish.

Quoted Text Obviously I'm sticking to one extreme here with the family guy but I think it speaks loud enough volumes.  There's no justifiable reason for him to kill himself IMO, so I really don't believe there's a justifiable reason for anyone else too, either.  Yes, life sucks, but things can get better.  You just have to gut it out!  There's no reason to take your own life.  It's a gift that you should use in every capacity.

I'm sorry, but this opinion is incredibly arrogant, IMO, presuming to know what other people's lives are like. You don't get to judge if someone's life 'isn't so bad'. You just don't. Life is a gift, and the great thing about gifts is that you can return them if you don't like them.

And how exactly do you jump from "there's no justifiable reason for Bluecollar Mcsinglebreadwinner to kill himself" to "there's no justifiable reason EVER for ANYONE"? Isn't that like going from "Abortion is wrong if you only do it because you think girls are weak and don't deserve life" to "Abortion is always wrong". There's a logical gap you need to explain, because right now you're basing your entire case on one extreme example. That would be like if I based my entire case for the right to suicide on Happy McQuadraplaegic who lost his entire family in the car crash that rendered him paralyzed from the neck down and burned 89% of his body, and which makes every second of his life living hell, and which makes it impossible for him to do the only other thing he ever loved: Sculpting. However he will be able to live for years to come.

Quoted Text You know how a lot of people in concentration camps survived?  Just the thought of a better world outside of the camp gates was enough to keep a lot of those folks sane.  Just the hope that if they could gut this out they'd arrive to something better.  Check out Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz.  Good read.

Please, skip the life-affirming hallmark channel schmaltz. It's not an argument. It's a day time emmy.

Quoted Text Abortion and terminally ill is another discussion entirely and probably one that could go on for days.

It's not another discussion entirely though.

Seriously. You think life is percious and everyone should think so too. Great. Don't agree. But great. I love life. I have absolutely no reason to commit suicide. But I think the principle in the right to end your life is at the cornerstone of free will. Are you a bastard if you leave your family behind? Yeah, probably. But that's the nasty thing about principles. They cover the bastards too. Something being a right is not the same as something being moral.

It's not an obligation to be alive. It's a privilege. It is, as you put it, a gift.

And seriously, now I'm really done. I don't have time for these long threads anymore, and we're not getting anywhere anyway.

Live long and prosper. Or not. I'm pro-choice.

Quoted Text Whatever happened to personal freedom?

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Quoted Text I'm curious, are you pro-life? Because that exact argument can be applied to abortion.  Personal freedom VS personal responsibility.

No, I'm pro-choice.  I see where you would draw the parallel, but the reasoning behind a suicide vs. an abortion are two completely different contexts.  

Quoted Text I'm sorry, but this opinion is incredibly arrogant, IMO, presuming to know what other people's lives are like. You don't get to judge if someone's life 'isn't so bad'. You just don't.

Oh bah-humbug.  When someone's making a stink about wanting to kill themselves, I think I'm within my own right to think if their life is really that crappy or not.  What can be so horrific about the kid's life who triggered this thread?  What was so awful about his life that he needed to stream his own death on his webcam in front of random people on the Internets?  Not enough friends?  No one liked him?  Low self-esteem?  It's not like he put a gun to his head and did something horribly violent; he did something he knew would get a reaction out of a great number of people.  Why?  Probably because he's lonely.  Sucks, but there's ways around it.  

Quoted Text And how exactly do you jump from "there's no justifiable reason for Bluecollar Mcsinglebreadwinner to kill himself" to "there's no justifiable reason EVER for ANYONE"? Isn't that like going from "Abortion is wrong if you only do it because you think girls are weak and don't deserve life" to "Abortion is always wrong". There's a logical gap you need to explain, because right now you're basing your entire case on one extreme example.

Certainly.  I use that extreme example to illustrate my argument of personal responsibility.  The way I see it, a family should be enough for a guy to think...hmmm, I think my life kinda sucks right now, but I don't want to end my life because it would have this, this, and that repercussions.   Likewise, someone younger who doesn't have the responsibility to take care of a family, well, where do their responsibilities lie?  School?  Their summer job?  Passing their marketing class? Relative cake compared to the hardships that happen later in life.  Now, am I an expert in this?  Of course not.  I can only go by what I've observed.  There was the story brought up of a 16 year old who killed himself because he felt he failed his family's strict rules of being the best in school.  Trust me, I sympathize with that and wish I could have helped him out, but isn't high school a blip on the radar for what you're in for the rest of your life, i.e. what family guy is going through some 30 years later?  I don't see these problems as solid reasoning to take one's life and am always going to think there's another way around it.

Quoted Text Please, skip the life-affirming hallmark channel schmaltz. It's not an argument. It's a day time emmy.

Just sayin'.  If someone had a reason to want to kill themselves, I'd say someone in the camps did.  

Quoted Text But I think the principle in the right to end your life is at the cornerstone of free will.

That's where we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

You said your bit and I said mine.  I'll back off as well.

I have never agreed with suicide. I know some people live more difficult lives than others, but I seriously have trouble believing that one's life is so difficult, and that they no longer have any purpose in the world whatsoever, with suicide being the only alternative. Everyone grows through troubles. It happens. It's life. What grow and learn from them. Some of these people don't even try to change the issues in their lives.

Quoted Text Because isn't Abortion selfish? But I would trust that on this board most of you would agree that it's a right. It's your own body, and that ultimately applies to suicide as well.

Whoa, whole 'nother topic, but unless you were raped, I definitely think abortions are selfish. You shouldn't have been f***in' around without protection! Whoops!

I've been gone a couple of days and I was really hoping this thread would have died down because some of the opinions here really bring out the worst in me. I see Phil and Greg are still trying to apply rules as to when you should be allowed to commit suicide.

What your basically saying is that everyone is the same and should handle trouble, hardship, pain etc. in the same way - that is, to get over it. Guess what? No one's alike. Not everyone is strong enough to pull themselves up by the root of their hair, not everyone has someone or something to turn to when the going gets tough. I think the two of you are being off the chart judgemental.

Will a suicide affect the people around you? Of course it will...and so will murder, natural causes, sickness, accidents etc. But if you think that someone suicidal will go through the rationale of weighing this affect against their own personal pain then you're in for a rude awakening.

Quoted from sniper I've been gone a couple of days and I was really hoping this thread would have died down because some of the opinions here really bring out the worst in me. I see Phil and Greg are still trying to apply rules as to when you should be allowed to commit suicide. What your basically saying is that everyone is the same and should handle trouble, hardship, pain etc. in the same way - that is, to get over it. Guess what? No one's alike. Not everyone is strong enough to pull themselves up by the root of their hair, not everyone has someone or something to turn to when the going gets tough. I think the two of you are being off the chart judgemental. Will a suicide affect the people around you? Of course it will...and so will murder, natural causes, sickness, accidents etc. But if you think that someone suicidal will go through the rationale of weighing this affect against their own personal pain then you're in for a rude awakening.

Chill.  People are giving their opinions on the subject, and mine happen to be that, no, I don't think there's any reason to commit suicide because x, x, and x.