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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Reviews    Movie, Television and DVD Reviews  ›  Star Wars : The Last Jedi Moderators: Nixon
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 15th, 2017, 8:35am Report to Moderator
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The yearly tradition continues : A Star Wars movie on my birthday.

I'll come back to this on more detail later.

It was a tale of two halves for me, the first half for me was looking like a misstep.. I'd even go so far as to say it felt more like a Harry Potter film in terms of character design (all CGI), tone and even story tropes.

However the second half packed a real punch emotionally.

There are things I didn't like, but overall it's a success.

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Scar Tissue Films  -  December 16th, 2017, 4:43am
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CameronD
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HUGE Star Wars nerd and I've done the impossible. Thanks to cutting my cable cord and incredible self discipline I haven't seen a single trailer or commercial for the film.  Can't wait to see it this weekend.


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 15th, 2017, 1:18pm Report to Moderator
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I got stung with spoilers on Facebook.

Rookie move.

This is a film that will divide opinion, massively.

The new films essentially shit on the original trilogy and their characters... If you can accept that you will enjoy it. If not....
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Penoyer79
Posted: December 16th, 2017, 12:23am Report to Moderator
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yeah spoilers got me too - in a place i least expected it with no chance of protecting myself from it. A few disgusting, despicable assholes feel the need to ruin it for everyone.
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TonyDionisio
Posted: December 16th, 2017, 3:38am Report to Moderator
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They had so much to work with and produced so little.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 16th, 2017, 5:24am Report to Moderator
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This is getting trashed by large segments of the audience and I can understand why.

The criticisms you'll find in the user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB are all valid.

It's also getting praised by other people, and those people are also correct.

It's a good film, just not necessarily a good Star Wars film.


Here is the essential problem with Star Wars in 2017: It now mirrors culture instead of trying to create it.


The original Star Wars trilogy was based on the ideas of Joseph Campbell. He'd looked at the underlying structure of stories and myths from all around the world to find the underlying truth.

That essential myth/truth is that a person who dedicates themselves to an ideal, and remorselessly confronts their own weakness...physical, psychological and spiritual... through self discipline, meditation and training can find balance and access deeper realities.

In essence, Star Wars was a spiritual parable of the Neophyte progressing through an ascetic/monastic discipline till he found God/the Tao...."The Force".  

Luke Skywalker represents that ideal in the original trilogy. He also represents another spiritual truth: That Love/Compassion can overcome Evil and that people can change. Luke never gives up on Darth Vader, and ultimately Darth Vader, the archetypal evil character has a change of heart and turns to the Light.

This is what the heart and soul of Star Wars was and what helped it become such a cultural phenomenon.

It was a great fantasy story, but it had genuine heart.

The major problem the Star Wars films have had since then is that the writers, including George Lucas, don't realise this. George was friends with Campbell and obviously thought his ideas would make a good film...but he obviously did not actually believe them.

His second trilogy established the Force not as a result of Devotion and Faith but of genetics. Some people are simply born superior to others...a rather distasteful idea that is now an unfortunate part of the Star Wars Universe. Some people have magical powers from birth, some people don't. It used to be that a person's "connection" to the Force (ie their level of Faith and dedication) that increased their power. Now it's simply something that you are born with.

As the world gets more Materialistic, so does Star Wars.

This has continued in this new trilogy, which has got as far away from the original spirituality as possible. Now you are not only born with magical powers, you are born with insane level fighting skills, wisdom and understanding. None of these things are the result of dedication, training, education and spiritual development.

The new main character is Rey...a character who has no physical, spiritual or psychological weaknesses. Someone who is physically and morally superior to everyone else without effort. There is nothing for her to learn as she is born perfect.

She is essentially the creation of modern Identity Politics/Progressive agenda based writing. She is a woman, so she is superior to every man, physically, intellectually and morally...a person without a single lesson to learn in anything whatsoever.  The actress does as well as she can with the role, but it's really a terribly written character and it's not real in any way.

And that there is the core of the problem with the series as it is now. It no longer tells spiritual truths...but lies.

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Scar Tissue Films  -  December 16th, 2017, 10:44am
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PrussianMosby
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If I get you right, and I agree with what you say, imo there's also one thing to consider that explains that certain realism issue: Don't they start with "in a galaxy far far away"…

And that's how I saw it. I myself never interpreted it as if all those beings are related to our society, or say, in a sense, some biological heritage… Not at all,, regardless wether the main characters look like humans. Did they ever even used the term "humans"? I don't think so.

First they had a simple good vs. evil world, slightly bound to organizations. It was just Imperial troops against a scattered opposition, simply called the rebellion.

Everything else was fine sequence plotting with interesting scenarios that work on their own, independent from everything else, " in the moment": Escaping a certain planet, getting the Falcon started, fighting a monster at Jabba's, training sequences, etc…

Whatever happened there, you always knew that if they escape, they're still in the middle of shit. The big things were simple - the single beats and scenarios instead, those were masterfully, multi-layered, intelligent moving the story forward and carrying the whole picture.

Second trilogy they already began to establish politics and economics, the bigger picture beyond. Huge mistake. F.i. the scattered Rebellion which originally in case of strengh has been seen, by me at least, as a fart in comparison to the evil strength (keyword: dark world / stakes), somehow is displayed there as the Galactic Federation, superb organized etc… Jedi Council etc. etc. All showed in an exposition mashine, rather than experienced by single beats that I described above. In a sense, the knowledge about the world originally was earned through movement in massive conflict. In the later films instead it's served upfront as in Blockbuster manner.

Star Wars to me, since Episode IV-VI and "a bit" of I and the slightly better Episode III completely sucked at "in the moment plotting". Independent beats that make you stay with your eyes on screen and don't let other thoughts into your mind.

Since I belong to those who found VII a disaster, I fear the spoilers will come before I get up to be disappointed, if that's even possible … It became just another movie for me I guess…

@ possibly the problem is that from its core SW was experimental Cinema, on the border to fail, an underdog far ahead its time. Perhaps its impossible to preserve such a rare attitude when using the standard mainstream production process as they do now.




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PrussianMosby  -  December 16th, 2017, 11:33am
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DustinBowcot
Posted: December 17th, 2017, 4:34am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

As the world gets more Materialistic, so does Star Wars.


This is really funny. How much did Disney pay for this franchise again?

This is all about making money, not making a great film. They just need to do enough to pass.

This shit should have died in the 80s.

Stories are just stories, and this one has had its day.
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HyperMatt
Posted: December 22nd, 2017, 6:47pm Report to Moderator
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Just saw the movie... I was not expecting that.
Came into this totally spoiler free. There were some neat twists that I did not see coming.
I can see why some fans will be upset, but it is those things that make it brilliant and bold.


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HyperMatt
Posted: December 23rd, 2017, 11:24am Report to Moderator
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It's hard to talk about this movie without giving spoilers, but one thing I really, really like about it is how it manipulates the movie goer's expectations. It puts down points to make you think it is going one way, but goes in a totally different direction.
Isn't that what good story-telling is about?


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 23rd, 2017, 1:36pm Report to Moderator
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It can be, but tbh.. I found it very fake and artificial here.

The film basically pretended to make very bold decisions, but then immediately went back on them in the very next scene and left the story in a weaker state.


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 23rd, 2017, 1:37pm Report to Moderator
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You're free to discuss spoilers BTW... Just give due warning.

Like:


SPOILERS AHEAD


WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD
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PrussianMosby
Posted: December 23rd, 2017, 1:57pm Report to Moderator
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Hyper, I believe to know what you mean concerning expectations. It's a double-edged sword. Imo, sometimes it's better to fulfill the expectations and go the direct way, with heart and skills instead of being fancy.

Lastly I decided to not watch it.

Don't know,,, when I heard about…

SPOILER BIG SPOILER

how they handled Luke, just no...


I heard, "only heard", beside all of Disney's social justice encouragement they obviously force now, where everybody may have their opinion on, it's said there was also a scene about alien animal rights -> meant as an allegory to our society. If that's right, imo, they are completely crazy. It borders to feeding ideology… and ideology is for me a dangerous field, unacceptable.

Billionaires making films about animal rights instead of changing the world themselves????

Liars!!! But that's just my opinion on this whole certain notion which comes along with the new movies. I must say a lot of things did just irritate me and I don't trust politics, and there was a slight undertone they go into politics, in Star Wars.

It's good to hear you had some fun though, Hyper. I truly mean it.  I'd be quite interested to hear what you say about what I heard about the film and why I fear to make another mistake,, no fan of TFA at all; reason I didn't see Rogue—and probably part of why I don't wanna see this one as well. Hard to explain but I already found all prequels much better than TFA



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HyperMatt
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One of my first memories in life is being in a dark cinema and that trench run on the Death Star. I have a lot invested in Luke Skywalker. He's as important a hero in sci fi as Captain Kirk or Flash Gordon. MINOR SPOILER:  There is some directions they went with the character that I am not totally happy about (I really lovef what they did with his reaction on first meeting Rey, although many seem to hate it) ,  but he resolves his conflict and his heroism is intact. PrussianMosby, it's a shame that you have seen spoilers. I have learnt to go into these movies staying away from social media. I did not have a clue what was going to happen. I think criticisms of the animal right thing, and the casino thing are overblown, did not draw away for me the main story.
And that third act... I cannot remember seeing a movie where I totally had no idea where it was going.


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PrussianMosby
Posted: December 23rd, 2017, 2:32pm Report to Moderator
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Okay, I hear you. And, you're right re spoilers. I just had no trust and gave up on that film, then still wanted to know…

I disagree with this however…

"He's as important a hero in sci fi as Captain Kirk or Flash Gordon."

I wouldn't compare Star Wars to Star Trek, ever.

When it comes to twists, it seems this one really wants to be as twisty as they did with the whole Vader arc in II and III.

Still puzzled that you think the animal rights stuff is background noise because the main plot is alright. I mean, what does it mean then? In a Star Wars movie where relaxation and joy is tops…

Thanks for your reply.



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HyperMatt
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For me the animal rights stuff was not something that I was thinking about, because there is so much going on.


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Penoyer79
Posted: December 24th, 2017, 1:25am Report to Moderator
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Just saw it.

Every interesting idea and story possibility that JJ Abrams' movie laid the ground work for Rian Johnson shat all over it and threw it in the garbage.

he resolved pretty much every idea in the most uninteresting fashion.

he literally cut the nuts off the story and wrote every angle into a corner.

what happens next? why do i care?
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DustinBowcot
Posted: December 24th, 2017, 3:54am Report to Moderator
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Animal rights?

You have the right to be farmed and eaten... or you can become extinct because there's no place in the world for you aside from on our dinner plates.

It's the vegetables I feel sorry for. Nobody ever considers them.

I'm going to cut down on my veg this Christmas. I'm pretty sure they're still alive before we steam or boil them. Vegetarians are savages!
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PrussianMosby
Posted: December 30th, 2017, 6:35pm Report to Moderator
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Okay, okay,

I didn't want to be in the middle of the discussion here when not having seen that flick but what the hell is wrong here?

Nobody comments on the newest Star Wars movie… Is it really that bad as the shitstorm on youtube and co suggest?

Re Dustin yeah, thanks for investing in some entertainment value. However, I got, hopefully, interesting news for you. I still won't give Disney my money, no new news that is I know, but man I heard something that might get you interested since you think a lot about indoctrination of people, corporate democracies etc etc we exchanged here and there a bit and you show up for those topics…

This movie is described by hundreds of non-paid individual reviewers as being the biggest ideology feeding piece OF ALL those socio-political, anti-discrimination, ultra-feminism (wrong feminism imo), anti-masculine Caucasian (can I say so), pro-minority, animal rights, climate stuff agendas, everything you can imagine -> COMBINED. Man, I remember I always thought that you exaggerate a bit when highlighting your opinion on those things. Rhetorically you may do, from your message, definitely not. They are truly on propaganda, ideological and even in a nihilistic form. And this movie seems to be the premium product.

People, honestly, we should talk about that as scriptwriters and storytellers.

(added background: I myself have no group. I'm an anti-fascist although no socialist at all and having none of the left wing economical notion either, I adore women's ability and would say they can handle earth's problems in many (most) times much better than those old men who rule us, 100%. People who know me here might understand me as a libertarian, somehow positioned in "European" liberalism (<- big difference to American liberalism), rightfully they do. Correct. For our times that's what I sign in and know not better.)



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bert
Posted: December 30th, 2017, 7:06pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from PrussianMosby
Nobody comments on the newest Star Wars movie… Is it really that bad as the shitstorm on youtube and co suggest?


No, it's not bad at all -- though Rogue One was truly a pleasant surprise and a superior film.  That one is highly recommended for fans who had doubts.

This film does some astonishing things with Luke's character and, to me, his arc is quite satisfying.  He is the primary reason to see the film.

Yes, Rey is a bit of a Mary Sue, and Kylo is still a K-Mart Vader wannabe with little menace. There is a silly "Casino" story-line that really goes nowhere.  del Toro is so wasted.  And Porgs -- I can take 'em or leave 'em.

It is almost too easy for fans to trash a Star Wars film, letting the things they do not like undermine the whole enterprise.  Outside of Rouge One, this is the film I've enjoyed most since the original trilogy.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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PrussianMosby
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Quoted from bert


No, it's not bad at all -- though Rogue One was truly a pleasant surprise and a superior film.  That one is highly recommended for fans who had doubts.

This film does some astonishing things with Luke's character and, to me, his arc is quite satisfying.  He is the primary reason to see the film.

Yes, Rey is a bit of a Mary Sue, and Kylo is still a K-Mart Vader wannabe with little menace. There is a silly "Casino" story-line that really goes nowhere.  del Toro is so wasted.  And Porgs -- I can take 'em or leave 'em.

It is almost too easy for fans to trash a Star Wars film, letting the things they do not like undermine the whole enterprise.  Outside of Rouge One, this is the film I've enjoyed most since the original trilogy.


Interesting!!! happy to get some information from the simply scripts people while I realize Star Wars was never a really big thing on this board someway.

First I thought you're full on sarcasm since you list so many negative things.

Kmart Vader, hah… this guy was so underdeveloped in TFA

So, if I get you right this is more of a standalone flick.

That they have problems with the plot was revealed in VII I think, whatever, there may be some true approach of entertainment around Luke, bad or good, at least they tried in that area.

I think my horror vision is that I don't like it and all those points I made about their political agenda are the sauce they dropped from above. Perhaps I could take a notepad with me, and when stuff goes a certain direction I make it a social studies lesson.

Whatever keep it coming if you like, I already got all those spoilers and people tearing it apart, time to get into what people enjoy from their pov.




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bert
Posted: December 31st, 2017, 11:26am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from PrussianMosby
I think my horror vision is that I don't like it and all those points I made about their political agenda are the sauce they dropped from above.


I think it is more along the lines of any "epic" film with a broad scope -- you are likely to find whatever it is you are looking for.  If your thing is animal rights, sure, you can probably find something there to talk about.

Most of the political takes that I've seen point out that the evil-doers are primarily white males, while all of the "good" characters are female or people of color.  There may even be something to that, but I don't look to entertainment for my politics these days.  Things are dark enough already, thank you.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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PrussianMosby
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Quoted from bert

I think it is more along the lines of any "epic" film with a broad scope -- you are likely to find whatever it is you are looking for.  If your thing is animal rights, sure, you can probably find something there to talk about.

Most of the political takes that I've seen point out that the evil-doers are primarily white males, while all of the "good" characters are female or people of color.  There may even be something to that, but I don't look to entertainment for my politics these days.  Things are dark enough already, thank you.

Of course there's something to that, even a lot imo. Otherwise there wouldn't be counter movements like black lives matter or what happened at G20 in Hamburg, the occupy stuff at Wall Street and so on. To me, all of them positive things. When you go that route in a movie and want to mirror some zeitgeist, zeitgeist put in context with humanism, then translate it intelligent and real. When it's superficial then I got my problems, and most critique on those points were about the empty way of delivery, like: we need to obviously trigger that, then that. I mean, what if you as an audience member already internalized all those things for yourself, then what does it make with you other than shaking the head and feel ashamed for them, their stupid methods?

And to me there are only two purposes left then: You want to convince bad people to change. Or/And secondly, what I think is main reason - you want to educate children (money involved here).

But man, if done correct, Star Wars is actually with its main genre drama and subgenre SF (space opera) the perfect ground to speak for a better world.

Re an epic film: Interstellar is good. And look how they took the boxes; strong female characters througout, devastated earth realistically shown etc… Titanic same, let's take the poorest guy and put him with the richest girl—we need to cross the Atlantic in best time so we get into the newspapers, fuck, not enough lifeboats…

I like your thinking here, very interesting to read, so go on if you like and have a good celebration





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PrussianMosby  -  December 31st, 2017, 2:34pm
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PrussianMosby
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Storywise, I'd ask:

Is it an honest movie?

Is it a more coherent movie than TFA; because that was so driven by coincidence?




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MarkItZero
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I really wanna rant about everything wrong with this film but I’m trying to ration my bitter rants. It’s a new year. So, instead I’ll say all the positive things I liked.

SPOILERS

I liked that line about Luke still stuck looking to the horizon and not what’s right in front of his face. And the revelation that his failures give him that much more to teach people about his own mistakes.

I liked that last moment in the hut between Rey and Kylo where they really bond. Both adrift with teachers incapable of offering the guidance they need.

I liked when that Porg got murdered and spit-roasted.


That rug really tied the room together.
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HyperMatt
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My only real issue with the film is

SPOILERS

They really didn't have to kill him. Great death scene, but was unnecessary.  I can't believe the powers that be agreed to it, especially with Carrie Fisher gone. It could have easily been re-filmed.

I felt that Luke Skywalker's adventures on this plain should have continued.


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CameronD
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Late to the party.

My biggest gripe, and there are many, is the story structure is a complete circle. The movie ends in near exactly the same spot as it begins, which is just poor screenwriting imo.


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