Good points, Martin.

Reading and learning from professional screenplays is a tricky thing.

I believe it’s true that there are some things that the pros do that we can’t.

But I also believe that this can blind us from the fact that there are also things that we can do and should be imitating.

That’s part of the reason why pro scripts read like a movie, while it often requires a painful amount of effort to picture amateur scenes in your mind.

An example from “Dead Silence” script:

Code INT. LIPTON’S ROOM, ´COME ON INN´HOTEL – SAME This ain’t the Hilton.

Enter the format nazi to ask “How can the camera record that ´this ain’t the Hilton´?

Duh.

Literally, it can’t. But the description, with few words, paints a clear visual in my mind: a crappy hotel room.

Another example from “Matrix Revolutions” script:

Code RAMA I went to the Frenchman to save my daughter. Neo struggles with the idea of a Machine loving another Machine.

Enter the format nazi: “How can the camera record Neo’s inner thoughts”.

Duh.

Even Keanu Reeves can put a confused face. The description line is just telling that the character looks confused because of what he just heard. Much more interesting to read it this way, than read a dry amateur description of the specific physical changes in the actor’s face.

I’m glad you brought this up, Martin. It’s been bugging me for a while.

Oh, and welcome to the site “me”. You look hot familiar. Do I know you?  

Nice to see a good debate getting started here. It seems like most of us are on the same page. Tierney summed it up quite nicely. It's less about rules and more about letting your writing breathe without fretting over which faux pas you might be commiting.

Quoted from dogglebe Another thing that people should remember is that the majority of us are trying to go pro with this writing-thing.  For the most part, we recognize the rules of script format.  Going against them is like purposely blowing a red light during your driver's test because you want to stick it to the man.  It's still wrong.

I call BS on this statement.

We're not talking basics like courier font and sluglines, we're talking about style choices and voice.

My argument is that unless you start writing like the pros, you'll never become one.

The notion that there is a different set of rules for pros and amateurs is a MYTH.

That's what I'm really saying here. Spec writers are limiting themselves by a set of rules that aren't really rules. They're just guidelines.

If your writing is great, it'll shine through any formatting quirks you might have. In fact the quirks often contribute to the quality of the writing i.e. they are a part of the writer's unique voice.

If your writing is insipid and your story is dull, nobody will consider your script because you ticked all the format boxes.

So, it's similar to literature. Writers need to take risks in screenwriting. But I think it takes a long time for that writer to develop that voice and style choices. And they learn these is by following the rules in the beginning. It invovles alot of pratice in screewnriting. Rules should exist, in the beginning, but once the writer feels comfortable with them then he or she can say fuck the rules. But I do agree that screenwriting should have some flexibilty in the description field. But I think this done so becuase of the 1 pg is 1 minute of film rule. Money affects the creativity.  

Gabe

Quoted from dogglebe but it shouldn't be written this way: We see JANICE place a bowl of stew in front of TOM. CLOSE UP-- on his eyes as horror pierces his soul and this bowl of crap stares his down.  He thinks back to the time when he got sick eating that Philly cheese steak from that kosher deli.  WTF was he thinking?  Kosher deli?  Jesus Christ!

Yeah, that's horribly wrong.  Seriously, who's going to think of a cheese steak when stew is put in front of them?  Where's the tie in, where's the subtext?  Other than the cheese steak, there's no meat to it.

Anyway, to get back on track, there are some things that I see flagged as not being filmable, when in fact they are.  An actor can interpret words on the page, just as easily as a writer can put them there.  An annoyed person can be filmed.  I use that example because I saw that in feedback recently.

There's a fine line between "blowing a red light" and just not knowing what you're doing.  A good example is a line from Bert's "Starbuck Starr".

"I mean, this guy is like lightning."

That's a description of how fast he is on the draw.  I remember this because he got a lot of flack for it.  Hell, I even think I joined in on that one.  Looking back, it was probably a waste of time to go on and on about it.  Why?  Because the rest of the script was spot on, and I know that Bert knows what he's doing.  

Sure, it probably could have been worded a little differently, but to condemn the entire script to the trash bin based on that one line, is probably going just a little bit overboard.

Quoted from Martin The notion that there is a different set of rules for pros and amateurs is a MYTH. That's what I'm really saying here. Spec writers are limiting themselves by a set of rules that aren't really rules. They're just guidelines.

Exactly.

This is a sample from two unproduced screenwriters whose spec Pierre Pierre was bought by Fox Atomic for Jason Reitman as a follow up to Juno.

---
Then something unexpected happens: The film turns into vibrant Technicolor! (Note: From this point, Pierre Pierre remains in color until the end of the third act.) PIERRE looks around, noticing the sudden color.

FAIRBORN
(grinning knowingly)
The world appears different with money. Doesn't it, Pierre?
---
The entire screenplay is full of stage direction, embedded music and rule smashing.  It's also a funny and fun read.

And that's what Hollywood buys from first time writers.  They buy things like Juno and Pierre Pierre.  Something fresh and fun to read.  They don't buy straight to dvd horror or action.  They have that stuff in bulk.  They want voices and just enough quirk to not frighten the movie going audience in Nebraska.

Quoted from Martin Nice to see a good debate getting started here. It seems like most of us are on the same page. Tierney summed it up quite nicely. It's less about rules and more about letting your writing breathe without fretting over which faux pas you might be commiting. If your writing is insipid and your story is dull, nobody will consider your script because you ticked all the format boxes.

The last time we had this conversation (or maybe the time before that), I brought up a day in the life of a Holywood script reader.  He has to pull fifteen or twenty scripts out of the slush pile every day and find a reason why these scripts shouldn't be forwarded to his bosses for consideration.

If the first script is as thick as a phone book, it goes in the garbage without even being opened.  A real screenwriter knows better than to submit a four hundred page script.

If the second script is printed on coral-colored paper, that also goes in the garbage without being loked at. Professionals know what color and type of paper.

The third script is stapled.  The fourth is accobound.  The fifth has artwork on it so incredible that it could hang in a museum.  Not packaging a script the way it should be is the sign of an amateur.  Garbage.  Garbage.  Garbage.

The script reader has just rejected five scripts without even turning to page one.  A quarter of his day's work is done in a matter of minutes.

Script number six is entitled "The Phoenix V Clone Wars."  The reader works for a studio that doesn't do science fiction.  Garbage.

Script number seven is entitled "Star Trek:  McCoy's Last Days."  Paramount has the rights to the Star Trek fanchise.  Garbage.

Script number eight, "Freddy vs. Leatherface."  Fuck me.  Garbage.

Script number nine, "The Last Widow."  Pencilled on the title page are the words, "Not my best work.  Call me."  The reader will read this--no he won't. It goes in the garbage!

Script number ten is mssing a title page.  Garbage.

Half of the way through and the reader's been at his desk only twenty minutes.  Atleast he got past the cardstock covers before he tossed them.

Script number eleven is formatted with left justification.  Dialogue is not centered.  The writer doesn't know what he's doing.  Hook shot to the garbage!

Number twelve uses a smaller font than usual.  And the left and right margins are only half an inch.  This 100 page script is probably closer to 160-170 pages. Garbage.

Number thirteen fades in on eight army helicopters crashing into each other over Times Square at the clock strikes twelve on New Years Eve.  Sorry but the agency doesn't produce films with budgets exceeding fifteen billion dollars.

Number fourteen, "The Truck."  Hmm, the first fifteen pages show six teens--a jock, a princess, a nerd, a goth, a deadhead, a poet, the school brain, and a fat slob talking about how their lives suck.  We don't know what the story is about yet and have no idea hoe a truck plays into it.  Garbage.

Number fifteen.  A lot of camera angles and WE SEEs.  Sign of an amateur writing.  Nothing but net!

Number sixteen.  Chock full of spelling and gramatical errors.  Atleast six mistakes on the first page alone.  Garbage.

Number seventeen.  "The Evil Mister Jones."  Script opens with the title character raping a retardedten year old girl.  Very graphic.  If this is how you show the villain is a bad, then you can't write.  Garbage!

Number eighteen.  "A Christmas Wish." Opens with a funeral of an old man, a beloved family figure.  The main character, ten year old Billy, has to come to terms with his grandfather's death only three days before Christmas.  Reads well.  Properly written.  I'll put this one aside for now.

Number nineteen.  "Simplyscripts:  The Movie."  Three hundred wannabe writers sit in fron of their computers and write...or argue about writing.  Visually, it's very dull and our target audiences won't go for it.

Number twenty.  "The Goonies Return."  JFC!  How many times has that girl submitted this script?  Thirty?  Forty?

Number twenty-one.  Wow!  The first four pages consist of one long paragraph of a character climbing into his car and driving to Pennsylvania.  No dialogue at all!  Guess what?  Garbage!


If you figure that each script averages 100 pages, this poor schmuck would have to read 2000 pages a day.  I'll repeat that:  2000 pages a day.

Most script readers read only the first ten or fifteen pages of a script.  If he's not hooked by then, the script lands in the garbage.  The one that intrigues him (if there is one) is read to completion....unless something in the script turns the reader off.  If he thinks your an amateur writer, he'll put you down before he can discover that your script is the next Juno.  It doesn't matter how good it is if it's not read.  Is it fair?  No!  Is it fair that he has to read shit day in and day out, looking for the that one pearl?  Actually, it is.  It's his job.  But it doesn't mean he has to read an entire script if he thinks it was written by an amateur.

Don't give him a reason to think it was written by an amateur.


Phil

Phil,

A lot of those things you pointed out (font size and type, colored paper, artwork, etc...) nobody is disagreeing with.  That's not really what this thread is about.

One that intrigued me though, is script # 7, the Star Trek one...

Why would the company even request a copy of it if they didn't own the rights?

Not all examples are perfect.

If they don't do sci fi, why would they accept a sci fi script?

Phil,

90% of your post is arguing points that haven't even been mentioned in this thread.

Also, I think you have a somewhat skewed view of what a script reader does. I've been a low-level reader for an agency. If the agency requests a script, they'll get a low level guy to read it, and write coverage, which means reading the whole damn thing regardless of how bad it is.

Scripts won't get passed up the chain to mister trash can producer guy unless they pass all the basics and show some merit.

I'll call you on a couple of things though.

"Number fifteen.  A lot of camera angles and WE SEEs.  Sign of an amateur writing.  Nothing but net!"

BS, see elsewhere in the thread. Nobody cares about this crap.

"The one that intrigues him (if there is one) is read to completion....unless something in the script turns the reader off."

This is the attitude I'm talking about. It's a misconception that readers are looking for any old excuse to toss a script. The reality is that Mr. Jaded Script Reader is sick of reading the same old generic, lifeless drivel, and he just wants to be blown away by something dazzling.

Great writing will do that.

Great writing will do that on the very first page. See the sample pages in the first post in this thread. If you were a reader, would you throw out either of those because of the "errors" on the first page? I sure as hell wouldn't. In just a page both writers have demonstrated their talents as writers, and producers are looking for talent, not formatting experts.

Striving for mediocrity won't get us anywhere.

We have to show our talents. Why should the "rules" hold us back? Especially when the pros don't even consider them rules.

Quoted from Shelton One that intrigued me though, is script # 7, the Star Trek one... Why would the company even request a copy of it if they didn't own the rights?

Quoted from ABennettWriter Not all examples are perfect. If they don't do sci fi, why would they accept a sci fi script?

Who said this agency asked for them?  Some writers are just idiots who will mail in a script because they have someone's address.  They submit a script without even asking if they could.  I remember reading, somewhere how an agency (or production company) has a 200 page script faxed to them.  Two hundred pages of an unsolicited script faxed in!

Many people submit a script thinking, "They don't normally accept science fiction, but how can you go wrong with Harry Potter 2525?"

Some people are idiots.

Quoted from Martin 90% of your post is arguing points that haven't even been mentioned in this thread.

I'm showing how little it would take for your script to be thrown in the trash.  When you're starting out, you shouldn't be changing decades-old formatting rules.

Quoted from Martin Also, I think you have a somewhat skewered view of what a script reader does. I've been a low-level reader for an agency. If the agency requests a script, they'll get a low level guy to read it, and write coverage, which means reading the whole damn thing regardless of how bad it is. Scripts won't get passed up the chain to mister trash can producer guy unless they pass all the basics and show some merit.?

And if the reader has a script that makes his sphincter tighten up after two pages of reading, he's not going to pass it along.  And if those two pages are so filled with formating errors--thus, making it a difficult read--he's not going to keep reading it.

How many times do scripts get better after the first thirty pages?  A number of writers, here, have said that theirs does.  I sincerely doubt that they do.

Quoted from Martin We have to show our talents. Why should the "rules" hold us back? Especially when the pros don't even consider them rules.

You have to show your talent using the guidelines that are used in the industry.  Can you bend the rules a little bit?  Yes.  You can!  Can you completely toss the formatting rules aside, making it difficult to read?  No.  You can't!

In homebrewing competitions, beers are judges by flavor, aroma, mouthfeel, and what the beer looks like in the glass.  No points are given or taken away because the bottles that the entries come in.  However, when an entry arrives in a sticky, dirty bottle, the judges' opinion are immediately swayed and the entry will lose a point or two because the judges' first opinions have been jaded by a poor first impression.

Finally, of all to things to learn about scriptwriting, isn't formatting the easiest part?


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe The third script is stapled.  The fourth is accobound.  The fifth has artwork on it so incredible that it could hang in a museum.  Not packaging a script the way it should be is the sign of an amateur.  Garbage.  Garbage.  Garbage.

A little off topic but what exactly is the proper way to package a script? The only time I ever print scripts is when I'm having them copyrighted. I think a long time ago, I might've had a script bound at an office building but other than that, I rarely see scripts on paper.

Back on topic, I think there's a good discussion going on here, not to mention way past due. I agree with Martin that's it's important to find a voice as a writer. I don't think you have to break a lot of rules to find a voice though and the ones that tend to get broken usually aren't all that important (Bert's "fast as lightning" description can absolutely be filmed). For me, I think it's all about having a well-rounded vocabulary so you can, for example, find a more descriptive word for a color rather than going with a straightforward red, blue, green, etc. That's one way you can paint a picture without eating away too much at the white on the page.

Quoted from dogglebe Who said this agency asked for them?  Some writers are just idiots who will mail in a script because they have someone's address.  They submit a script without even asking if they could.  I remember reading, somewhere how an agency (or production company) has a 200 page script faxed to them.  Two hundred pages of an unsolicited script faxed in!

I had a feeling that was going to be your response.  

If that's the case, the script is going to be shit-canned whether it's Freddy vs. Leatherface or the next Casablanca, on white card stock or covered with money, simply because it's unsolicited.


James,

Correct packaging is three hole punched, with brads in the top and bottom holes.  1 1/4" or 1 1/2" brads, I believe.  White or gray card stock covers on front and back, with nothing printed/written on them.  All that info goes on the title page.

Phil,

As Shelton says an unsolicited script ends up in the trash regardless. It won't even make it past the mail room.

That's not what we're talking about here. There's a process to getting your script read.

It starts with a dynamite query letter. A good way to filter out idiot writers and material the prodco isn't interested in.

If a company requests a script they've already established that the writer can a) string a decent query together, and b) has an idea for a story that interests them

When a script ends up in a reader's lap, they have to read the whole thing and write coverage, including a synopsis.

As for formatting being the easiest thing to learn. You're right, basic formatting is easy to learn, but that's not really what this thread is about. Read my earlier posts.

Quoted from James McClung Back on topic, I think there's a good discussion going on here, not to mention way past due. I agree with Martin that's it's important to find a voice as a writer. I don't think you have to break a lot of rules to find a voice though and the ones that tend to get broken usually aren't all that important (Bert's "fast as lightning" description can absolutely be filmed). For me, I think it's all about having a well-rounded vocabulary so you can, for example, find a more descriptive word for a color rather than going with a straightforward red, blue, green, etc. That's one way you can paint a picture without eating away too much at the white on the page.

It is one thing to find your voice.  It's another thing to ignore the rules.

Once, I had someone here criticize me for describing a character as 'the girl next door.'  While it's not a die-hard description of the character (you couldn't pull someone out of a police line-up with it), it described the essence of the character.

This is not the same as a character remembering 'the girl who got away.'

Quoted from Shelton If that's the case, the script is going to be shit-canned whether it's Freddy vs. Leatherface or the next Casablanca, on white card stock or covered with money, simply because it's unsolicited.

How many excellent scripts, do you think, were trashed because of something like this?  Something that could easily be corrected?  Wouldn't that upset you if you learned that your script wasn't even look at because you stapled the pages together?

Or because you submitted a shooting script instead of a spec script?

Or because of misspelled words?

Every job requires you to follow someone else's rules.  Why not screenwriting?


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe Every job requires you to follow someone else's rules.  Why not screenwriting?

Nobody's saying there aren't any rules. Just that the rules aren't different just because you're an amateur.

Who would you rather learn from, a pro screenwriter or some schmuck on a forum?

And how the fuck did this thread end up being about staples and spelling mistakes?

Go back and read the first post.