Hello All,

Just looking for some opinions on a couple of issues that I've been tackling with my screenplay...

1.  INCITING INCIDENT ON PAGE 14
In the story, the inciting incident occurs on page 14.  I know that I should be trying to shoot for around page 10-12, but because I've decided to use the ACT ONE TURNING POINT event in the opening scenes as a hook (first 3 pages) and then begin the story from page 4 (using the good old "One Week Earlier" bit), I've justified pushing the Inciting Incident back 2 pages to accomodate this setup.  I've come to this decision by thinking about why the 10-12 page '"rule" is in place to begin with (to start the ACTUAL story and keep the audience interested in watching).  

On the flipside, I could have very well not opened the story with the ACT ONE TURNING POINT, spent the the first 10 pages establishing, charachters, exposition, locations etc. (just the same way that I have) and then have the inciting incident occur on page 10-12 as scheduled.  However, I believe if the purpose is keeping the audiences attention, then immediately using a hook for the opening (and pushing the incident 2 pages to accomodate this) serves the purpose of keeping an audience interested much better then not using a hook and having the Incting incident occur on page 10-12.

Would love to hear some opinions on this?


2. OPENNING LOCATION FOR 16 PAGES  
The first 16 pages of the story take place in the same location.  Now it's not as bad as it sounds for the following reasons:  4 of 16 pages take place at the same location but at a different point in time.  And just to be clear, when I say the same location I don't mean one 16 page mega-scene or something crazy like that - but aprx. 10 different scenes, each in different parts/rooms of the overall location (so its not like one dragging scene in the same place).  As well, the story itself is based on this location (it's even in the title of the screenplay!) S

So once again, opinions are greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

I don't think the placement of Inciting Incident is a hard rule. I've had my Inciting Incident anywhere from Page 1 - Page 18 (if I remember correctly). It depends on the story, the total length of the scipt and your pacing (IMO).

I've never been critized by the placement of my Inciting Incident when having it anywhere within the first 20. I'd think, anything after 20 pages and you're running long and will need some cuts.

As for keeping the story within a single location within the first 15 pages or so. Again, without the context of your movie, it's hard to judge... but off the top of my head, I can't see any negative reasons why this can't be done. Locations are important to the story (tone, feel, style even) so as long as it fits, it should work.

Hope this helps.

Stewart

My opinion is that as long as those pages are interesting and has forward momentum, it makes little to no difference which page you place your events on or when or how often you change locations. Those rules are only guidelines to help you if you need help. In the end, it doesn't matter as long as the story is engaging. Write what's right.

I'd really have to see the script to make a fully-informed judgement, but my personal philosophy is that as long as you're making a conscious decision, and know why you're doing something, then it's usually fine.

Don't warp your story to fit the rules - they're really just guidelines, anyway. Like I say, though, it's hard to say if it's a problem without seeing the script.

I would have to see the script, but I understand just how difficult it is to determine those first ten pages. It seems one is always sacrificing something and I think it's a good idea to just keep writing it every way you can imagine, let it go cold, and then write it every way you can imagine AGAIN! Each time, being critical and asking yourself, what is the importance here of this? Of that?

What I'm saying is that the first ten pages need to accomplish so much. You need to establish the tone of your piece right from the get-go. That's a big one. You need to ground your audience into "the world" you establish and they need to have a reason to watch. It can't just be a manufactured initiating incident. It has to be the kind of catalyst that is fueled by and will subsequently fuel the character's motivations.

The connections between the characters and the plot you work to construct can't be understated. You can't have 80% plot and 20% character; so when you're writing your first ten, consider the characters first, and constantly be asking "why".

I have trouble with structure, but I know also, that it's a beautiful trouble because one sees the correlations between individuals and their actions upon the problems they receive in life, (or the script). As writers, struggling to determine the connections within a script, we find it is kind of like entering a new reality on another level, and one begins to appreciate the work itself.

So my short answer is:

Work really hard to present what your story is about in the first ten and make the whole thing a hook. Your audience needs to FEEL. They need to be asking QUESTIONS. They need to be ENGAGED. They need to be ENTERTAINED.
The questions need to be answered-- later. Now, you need to feel that engagement in your script. You need to feel how they, the audience will be entertained. When you can feel that "it's happening", I think you'll know it. You might need to do a lot of writing to figure out your first ten, but the measure of something's importance is shown by the amount of time and effort one expends.

Hope this helps some,

Sandra

None of the rules are concrete.  It sounds like you have a good sense of structure.  Write what you think is best.  Then post it here.  If it isn't good then you'll hear about it.

Quoted from Heretic None of the rules are concrete.  It sounds like you have a good sense of structure.  Write what you think is best.  Then post it here.  If it isn't good then you'll hear about it.

Good words. If it were so easy; then we wouldn't need Simplyscripts and dozens of books devoted to the craft.

In a nutshell, it's bloody hard work  and even though people might see the outside craziness on here, the people take the work seriously and try to give the best feedback, each according to their ability.

Perhaps you should make the best decisions you can at this point and go ahead and post it.

I wish you lots of good luck!

Sandra

Excellent.  Thank you very much everyone.  As always, I appreciate the feedback SS - Very valuable! =)

Skippa,

If you're aiming to send your script to Literary Agents, remember a professional reader looks for all the plot points to be in their proper places.  I'd also encourage you to listen to the Babz's Buzz podcast on the main page.   It's very helpful.

I'll definitely have a listen, thank you. =)

Because I use the openning five pages for the hook, the structure outlines have been pushed forward aprx. 5 pages (to accomadate this).

For Example:  

Assuming I'm aiming for a 100-109 page script.  Here's how the action is laid out:

Hook - page 1-5  
Inciting Incident - page 15 (instead of 10)
Plot Point - page 30 (instead of 25)
Midpoint - 55 (instead of 50)
Major Setback - 80 (instead of 75)
etc.

Essentially, the plot points still fall in the same place except (because of the hook) they are pushed forward 5 pages.  Would a professional reader not take this into consideration?
      
Now with that being the case, I'm sure I could make the necessary cuts (if I had to) and have the story fit those EXACT specifications (I could even go so far as to easily remove the five page hook entirely and have it fit perfectly [which I wouldn't do =P]) but I really do feel this will affect the story in a negative way.  

The story (to me) is the begin all and end all.  I try not to let anything effect it's flow. Not the jokes (it's a comedy) and really, not even the structure.  That being said, I obviously aim to hit the structure "targets", but use them as guidelines to keep the action on track.  

For example:  If I feel the story is better off with the first Plot Point falling on page 27 (as opposed to 25), then I'll go with it.  If I think I really have something, I don't want to go back and start making cuts to dialougue solely fo rthe sake of landing exactly on page 25 (BTW I'm not talking about a first draft, I'm referring to work that has taken some time to create).  Of course, I prefer the dialougue to flow in a way that represents the charachter - not having to sacrifice some of "the less important" conversation (that for the sake of progressing the action forward may not be AS important but goes a long way in establishing the charachter/motivations which will in turn strengthen the story as a whole) to simply hit an specific mark.  I don't want to surpress a charachter or try to cram more information than is natural in their dialouge to force exposition in un-natural conversation, or have a charachter who spends the whole script rambling on to all of the sudden become succinct in his new found, one word responses to save a page or two.  

Mind you with everything I've mentioned Im not an advocate of boycotting the rules all together.  I think besides story, structure is the most important aspect of screenwriting.

*deep breath* What do you think? =)

I echo my prior comment. If you have a good story that draws a reader in, then they're not going to care where the plot points are. Where you run into a concern is when the plot plods along and they start wondering when something is going to happen. That's when they start looking at page numbers. If you have a truly engaging story, they won't worry about plot points until later.

Story structure is vital, and the best way to prove that is to draw a reader into the story so they don't notice it.

Quoted from George Willson I echo my prior comment. If you have a good story that draws a reader in, then they're not going to care where the plot points are. Where you run into a concern is when the plot plods along and they start wondering when something is going to happen. That's when they start looking at page numbers. If you have a truly engaging story, they won't worry about plot points until later. Story structure is vital, and the best way to prove that is to draw a reader into the story so they don't notice it.

Well put George.

It's a harder rule than most people think. Successful screenwriting structure is more rigid than most realise. The Inciting Incident should be within the first five pages, ideally the first.

Write what will get it sold to a producer/studio.

After you sell a screenplay to a studio, you have the contractual right to do the first rewrite under the WGA. So you will take a notes meeting with the producer and studio to hear their thoughts. At that meeting you are mostly there to hear what they have to say. They don’t expect you to have any answers to questions you’re just hearing for the first time or to provide them with complicated back stories, alternate endings, or things not in the script. Nor should you volunteer too much anyway. Just listen. Smile. Take notes. Say things like, “Hm, that could work.” Or, “Interesting.” But most importantly, you say, “I’ll have to think about it.”

Then you go home and try to figure out how to address their notes while still keeping the script together. In most cases, you are not going to be the last writer and they may already be looking for your replacement while you’re doing your rewrite. Don’t be personally offended. When you turn it in and find out they’re not pursuing any optional steps with you, you say, “Thanks so much. It’s been a pleasure working with you. I hope we can work together again soon.”

The studio executives, producer, director and actors are going to franken-script your screenplay. But that doesn't matter if you. Don't. Sell.

Quoted from Skippa646 Hello All, Just looking for some opinions on a couple of issues that I've been tackling with my screenplay... 1.  INCITING INCIDENT ON PAGE 14 In the story, the inciting incident occurs on page 14.  I know that I should be trying to shoot for around page 10-12, but because I've decided to use the ACT ONE TURNING POINT event in the opening scenes as a hook (first 3 pages) and then begin the story from page 4 (using the good old "One Week Earlier" bit), I've justified pushing the Inciting Incident back 2 pages to accomodate this setup.  I've come to this decision by thinking about why the 10-12 page '"rule" is in place to begin with (to start the ACTUAL story and keep the audience interested in watching).   On the flipside, I could have very well not opened the story with the ACT ONE TURNING POINT, spent the the first 10 pages establishing, charachters, exposition, locations etc. (just the same way that I have) and then have the inciting incident occur on page 10-12 as scheduled.  However, I believe if the purpose is keeping the audiences attention, then immediately using a hook for the opening (and pushing the incident 2 pages to accomodate this) serves the purpose of keeping an audience interested much better then not using a hook and having the Incting incident occur on page 10-12. Would love to hear some opinions on this? 2. OPENNING LOCATION FOR 16 PAGES   The first 16 pages of the story take place in the same location.  Now it's not as bad as it sounds for the following reasons:  4 of 16 pages take place at the same location but at a different point in time.  And just to be clear, when I say the same location I don't mean one 16 page mega-scene or something crazy like that - but aprx. 10 different scenes, each in different parts/rooms of the overall location (so its not like one dragging scene in the same place).  As well, the story itself is based on this location (it's even in the title of the screenplay!) S So once again, opinions are greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

While there are exceptions and editing manipulations, an Inciting Incident on page 14 is rare. You're taking a risk.

With respect, are you sure you know what an Inciting Incident is?