This is about writing dialogue for each character. I'm curious what you people think.

I read a lot of scripts and to some probably write a lot of scripts as well. Some writers I read a lot of scripts by and I know their style as writers. Some have great talent for dialogue, others for action and some are good at everything. However, most scripts I read the dialogue is in the writer's style or voice, but not necessarily very different between the characters themselves. As some of you know, I'm producing my own film at the moment and we've had two script meetings so far. Both times I was told the four main characters sound the same. I've gone over the script and even took on a second writer, but after today's meeting I was still told they sound the same. This is very frustrating to me. A lot of you guys read the first draft and some have read later drafts and none of you said they sounded the same. Except for a couple after reading the first draft.

Anyway, when you read scripts here, do you ever think about this while reading? I know I hardly ever say anything about the characters sounding the same. IMHO, I just assume the actors will put their own spin on the characters.

Any thoughts? Do you think a lot about this when writing? Especially when there are a lot of characters?

Pia

Is one of them the person who told you to write "visually"?

Dialogue is tough.

Dialogue goes back to the character's background. How much character background do you have for each character?

The important ones are their history. I remember reading your first draft and I mentioning to establish those back stories up in the beginning. To make the characters more different from each other, I guess add more back story.



  

Coming from an acting background of sorts, this is something I think about alot. Weather or not this translates into the characters I write having a unique voice is a different matter altogether! I'm also particularly conscious of this since most people who will invaribaly read my work won't be familiar with the regional dialects I write in, turns of phrase etc. After reading one of my shorts, someone commented that English mustn't be my first language. It is, I'm just not very good at it . . . The colloquialism was lost on them, at least that's how I consoled myself.

I think the problem Pia is two fold. First, giving your character enough of a flavour, so that they sound unique without being overpowering and second having an actor talented enough to interpret that character and make it their own. A good deal of research and workshopping can solve the second issue.

Let's say I was writing the dialouge for a character, Deco (slang for Declan), from Dublin. A typical extract might sound like this. 'Alright man, what's the bleedin' Jack and Nory bud, ya alright'. Not many people would get their head around that. So although that sounds exactly how a Dub called Deco might speak, from a writing point of view, it needs to be toned down. Just a hint of things like 'Alright bud' etc should signal to the actor where this character is from, what he sounds like, how he might carry himself etc.

I agree that alot of dialouge I have read sounds flat, even though I have come across a few stand out pieces. I haven't read your script, Finders Keepers, so I can't say weather your characters sound the same. I'll have a look though.

Good question Pia,

I have been told the same thing regarding a couple of my scripts and when I go back to read them myself, they (to me) do not.

The preconceived voice in our head so many times does not make it to the tip of our pins.  One thing I go back to is how I first introduce them. In the past, I used to do what a lot of writers do...

JOHN, 36, medium build etc......

What I have noticed in the more enjoyable scripts I have read is more up front description to imprint the character in my head right out of the gate.

JOHN, 36, fat, pork chop sideburns, boobs like a woman.....

You are gonna expect this guy to have a real backwoods take on life. Then set him up in a double wide, with a wife that has one in the oven and the dialog pretty much takes on that person's personality.

At least that is what I have learned so far as to trying to make mine different and not sound the same.

Shawn.....><

When I read scripts I do notice that characters will sound the same. What will make them sound different is how well there are driven on page with what drives them in their life. Mostly it's fear. Fear of being unloved. Fear of being hurt. Fear of not being in control. This will drive them to talk too much, talk tough, talk in riddles, talk timidly.

When a bunch of guys get together online and game, they sound alike for the most part. But you can separate them...there is the silent shooter. The cussing shooter. The shooter who barks orders for coverage.

When people get together to watch a football game it's similar. They always agree, high-five, say the same stupid jokes. But you can separate them, too. There is the guy who shows up but doesn't know anything about the sport and asks stupid questions. There is the guy who knows everything about the sport and gets annoyed by the guy who doesn't, so he responds accordingly. There is the guy who knows everything about the sport and is overjoyed to tell the guy who knows jack all about the sport and just won't shut up. There is the guy who knows everything about the sport and keeps his mouth shut because all he wants to do is drink. And there is the guy always yelling at the TV, like that will do anything.

I don't know much about women when they get together but I guess it's similar. The cheer-leader, the bitch, the know it all, the drunk.

It's treacherous when men write women and women write men.

The dialogue comes the each according to what they fear or want. An object. Can I have that? Or they just keep picking it up and looking at it and putting it back down. Oh, that's pretty. Or...I wish I had one of these. Or...who would want this peice of junk?

Can you have a woman who always makes smart ass comments because she's smarter that everyone else,whether she be a cop, a scientist, or a stay at home mom? Sure. It gets old, though. She should have a heart. Having a heart means she'll apologize along that way after cussing someone out. Not having a heart means she'll just cuss a little more, or belittle the person who can't handle life, stick and stones...

More success comes in separating people as far as you can. That gets into stereotypes to some degree, but without stereotypes you won't get as broad appeal. We all have common stereotypes (at least in the USA). You know you're a redneck when...you know they belong to the Tea Party when...you know they're a liberal when...you know they're a spy when...

Take this Lie Detector short posted. The two men engage in verbal chess, yet one is more subservient because he has something at stake: his wife and kid. He's driven by fear which makes him say subservient things, yet yields to anger, which at times makes him the verbal aggressor. The other one is driven by power and being in control, so he's always the verbal agressor. The upshot there is they both sound the same at times but there is enough different that it seems to work.

In Ray's short, Automated, you have Yvette who is high strung and excitable, wants to make her mark. Joe is not excitable and knows how to push her buttons and that makes Joe the one-liner joke guy.  

I usually make the mistake of using dialogue that I would use. It's a lot of work not to.

Dialog tells more about a character than his appearance.  The amount of slang, and foul language says a lot.  How often he uses big words (and whether he knows how to use big words) all come into play.

Boardwalk Empire is a great example of this.  Most of the men on this show wear nice suits and are nicely groomed.  When they start talking, you can tell the leaders from the followers.  The educated from the uneducated.

The same with the women on this show.  The two leading female characters, Margaret Schroeder and Lucy Danziger probably buy their clothes at the same shop.  Margaret is a soft-spoken and educated woman.  Lucy, OTOH is is an boorish illiterate whore with the subtly of a kick in the balls.


Phil

Try this as a future exercise one day if you haven't.  

Take a pro script, remove the character names and review each block of dialogue and try to identify the characters who are talking.  With a few exceptions, here and there... they all sound like the same character.

Yes, here's something interesting...

Not saying it's not important... but some readers overuse this billyclub.  Some writers overcompensate by giving every character some sort of verbal twitch, and the characters start sounding bizarre and unnatural, and then a real actor gets ahold of the script and says no real person would speak this way.

Some readers have no ear. Some skim. And surprisingly, some don't have great reading comprehension. You can bust your *ss doing elegant, distinctive, subtle vocal characterizations and they still won't notice.  So I take this with a grain of salt. JMO.

Groups of people sometimes do sound like one another, whether it's because they're in the same family, or come from the same region, or ethnic group, or age group, or social sphere.

Yeah one more thing... quoting...

There's a lot of emphasis put on distinctive character dialogue & though it is important, dialogue alone can't entirely convey a character's uniqueness. Actions & particular actors' spins on their characters are where most of it happens. In writing dialogue the differences are usually very subtle, coming down to word choice, rhythm, pacing & tempo.

Hope something in here helps you...

Just thought I'd chime in... now I'll go back to ghosting... carry on.

Ghostwriter

I think an interesting point was made in one of the past SimplyRadio podcasts (I can't recall if I was a part of it or not) which is that many people intend to write "normal" characters who are from the same group and whose voices aren't necessarily meant to stand out. I think this is true. Not necessarily a bad thing. I see it in scripts all the time and I've done it myself in the past. It is especially a problem in ensemble pieces though. I've yet to read any such script on SS where all the characters have their own voice. I usually end up lumping them into groups of three, subconsciously. That's no good. On smaller scales, it's easier to keep track of individuals, regardless of their voice.

That said, it seems like what's being discussed here is the language characters use more than anything else. I don't think that's something that should be ignored. I think depending on what a character's purpose is to the story, their language can fluctuate in importance. I think a distinct manner of speaking would be a linchpin to a character whose meant to be scheming and diabolical, let's say.

But I do think it's something that accentuates rather than embodies a given character. I think it's more about what they say, what they're feeling and to what extent they put themselves out there. With quote unquote normal characters who are supposed to sound like quote unquote normal people, I think laboring over these elements will take you further than laboring over the way they speak.

But as true as I believe that is, maybe I wouldn't say it if I were really skilled at giving characters their own speech. It's definitely one of the tougher things to writing.

EDIT: I also agree with Ghostwriter. Some things come down to how much or how little the reader's taken from the script. It goes both ways, really.

I don't have much to add to what everyone else has said.  I was worried about dialogue in my scripts, too, but haven't had it mentioned before, and I think it's exactly because of what others here said - the background of the characters, what's going on in the story, and finding moments in each scene that shows their personality.

Like, for one of my minor characters, I wrote a scene having him show the main character how to tie a tie, with the main character making fun of "Sunday Best" clothing.  Both are college-educated, and the character didn't say much in that scene, but the ties helped show both their friendship and their different economic backgrounds.  Adds a little spice of personality without requiring too much on my part to deviate my writing style.

Hopes that thought helps.

Howdy, Pia

Both times I was told the four main characters sound the same. I've gone over the script and even took on a second writer, but after today's meeting I was still told they sound the same. This is very frustrating to me.

Here's my character  Cliff notes from FK:
MAXINE (20s) is behind the wheel with a steely look of concentration and determination
THOMAS (20s), classic good looking athletic type
MITCH (20s), spitting image of his brother Thomas
SIERRA (20s), pale skin, jet-black punkish hair, facial hardware

Five bucks says even though Sierra has donned the alternative lifestyle look and mode, she was raised in the same middle class neighborhoods and attended the same public schools of her same age group adventure mates.
Yeah. They're going to talk a lot alike because they each have pretty much the same demographic background.

Now, if your reader/producer/peanut gallery wants to introduce some "Breakfast Club" demographic diversity into the story MY OPINION is that approach will detract from the authenticity of what I'm pretty sure you're trying to communicate in this story.
Whomever is complaining needs to bring to the table a solution rather than pointing and grunting in disfavor.

From around here at SS we've all seen how one person will like a script while another hates it, one guy is always "confused", another thinks it's fine, another wants you to re-write it the way he'd do it (ugh!).
Five people.
Five @ssholes.
Five opinions.
You'll never satisfy everyone.
(Even cathouses have a different kinda girl for everyone! Interests ain't universal.)



... when you read scripts here, do you ever think about this while reading?

Always, but often it's the behaviors and responses of the characters to stimuli that gather my attention.


I know I hardly ever say anything about the characters sounding the same. IMHO, I just assume the actors will put their own spin on the characters.

I agree with you one hundred percent.
I watch every writer/director/producer/actor DVD commentary I can and they all say exactly what you've cited; absolutely no one sticks to the script absolutely, albeit it widely varying degrees.

Across every genre , budget and actor notoriety, they all alter or deviate from the studio approved script.
The actors FREQUENTLY go on and on and on about how they "get into the minds of their character".
I've never seen sh!t about WTH the writer was doing or attempting to do.
Then the actors or director will talk about how each of five different takes for any given scene is a different delivery.
And then the director and editor will get together in the booth and put in the take that they like or flows with the continuity best.

It doesn't matter.
So don't worry about it.
Anyone who does is showing their nervous Nellie nube-ness.

The audience is looking at Max and can/should be able to clearly differentiate between her assuring, "don't be stupid, everything is gonna be alright" attitude and Si's recalcitrant "I got mine, f@ck you!" attitude.
They ain't even the same.
IDK WTH's the problem with your readers.


Do you think a lot about this when writing? Especially when there are a lot of characters?

I'm notorious for including many characters and I think about the issue constantly.
I mentally assume the emotional persona of the character I'm writing and flip flop or rotate through the conversation as such.

- The boss talks like a level-headed mediator.
- Typical employees b!tch about problems.
- Up and coming employees identify problems and provide solutions.
- Father's shift gears when speaking to wives, daughters, sons, bosses and employees.
- Mom always talks the same to everyone for fear of offending anyone.
- Adult siblings and peers speak the same, unless there's the oddball/black sheep.
- Professionals throw around a lot of industry speak or lingo.
- Rednecks sound like rednecks.
- Hard @sses sound like hard @sses.
- People that don't care sound like they don't care.
- Crazy people are either hyper, bizarre or I go wiki the specific mental health issue they have and try to tailor their speech accordingly. Schizophrenics perceive the world around them differently than those with borderline personality disorders so they talk differently.

Max, Tom, Mitch and Si have the same demographic upbringing and education.
Maybe Si is sporadically working on her liberal arts degree, but the others probably all have their BSBAs and entry level management jobs at Red Lobster, Bank of America and Home Depot.
Yeah. They're gonna talk the same.
Duh!

Some people...
I just wanna stick a fork in their eye.

I hope that helps. ("Shut! Up! You obsequious sycophantic!)
I don't mean to be harsh. ("Here, tell me if this hurts... ")
http://soundbible.com/1409-Many-Punches.html

Thanks guys!

This wasn't so much just about my characters. Yes, my production partners both said this, but it made me think of all the scripts that I have read. Pro and none pro and I just don't see it that much in other scripts either. Like I said in the original post, I can tell different styles of the writer, but not necessarily a difference in their characters. I would just let the actors bring the characters to life if it was all up to me.

As far as my particular story goes, Sierra is from Detroit and therefore needs to talk like they do. I have no idea how people in Detroit talk. I tried to look into it, but...  Also the dialogue needed to sound like 20 year olds so a third person has agreed to help with some of that. She's in that age group herself.

I'll tell you that showing your script to other writers here or other websites for input is one thing, to show it to a bunch of people for the purpose of production where it will be totally picked apart is another...and not that easy either. People here or other places might give you a hard time about your commas in the wrong places, but in production they give you a hard time about totally different things.

And Ray, Sierra did not grow up like the others. She has a troubled past and is from a big concrete jungle.  

Maybe some of these might help:

http://www.michigannative.com/ma_pronunciations.shtml

http://www.americanaccent.com/

http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialhome.html

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWeb.....o&accno=ED022187

This one has recordings:

http://web.ku.edu/~idea/northamerica/usa/michigan/michigan.htm

I think if you really want to make it sound real you need to take a day trip there. Take a note book and a digital recorder. Find a coffee shop, bus stop, newstand, shopping mall etc and observe and record. I know it's not always practical, but every chance I get that's what I do. Covertly of course!

Unless you're doing a short and you have a reason, you really don't want to get into dialects.  It's just confuses people.  Slang fine, dialects no.  Again, unless you're doing a short and doing it for effect (I think shorts have different rules than features).  

You never want movie dialogue to sound real - you want it to sound realer than real.  In other words, you want a conversation in a film to convey more information than a conversation in real life.   You want every word of dialogue to count, unlike real life where we have a lot of filler in our discussions.

It isn't so much that you want characters to sound different (ok sometimes you want to give them a specific accent or make them talk a certain way) but you want them to act differently.    So while one character might say in response.  "I don't believe you" another might say "I agree with you 100%" while another might say "I'm sorry, did you just say something".  I think you will agree these don't sound the same.    

I think there is some confusion here over the word dialect as opposed to accent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect

. . . not that Wiki can always be trusted.

Dialect or accent, avoid it unless necessary.  The general person reading won't get it - even if you use slang - you will just confuse people.  And, of course, there are situations where you need to write like a person speaks but rather than trying to copy it verbatim you should just hint at it.   Again, I'm talking features here.  You want to throw a complete dialect or even an accent into a short then go for it.

EDIT: And I'll add here if you have a special reason to do it for a feature.  Like the feature will be made in Ireland and all the readers will be Irish and they'll get it.  It won't matter if you write the dialogue with a heavy brogue. So go for that too.

Quoted from mcornetto Dialect or accent, avoid it unless necessary.  The general person reading won't get it - even if you use slang - you will just confuse people.  And, of course, there are situations where you need to write like a person speaks but rather than trying to copy it verbatim you should just hint at it.   Again, I'm talking features here.  You want to throw a complete dialect or even an accent into a short then go for it. EDIT: And I'll add here if you have a special reason to do it for a feature.  Like the feature will be made in Ireland and all the readers will be Irish and they'll get it.  It won't matter if you write the dialogue with a heavy brogue. So go for that too.

Quoted from Eoin Let's say I was writing the dialouge for a character, Deco (slang for Declan), from Dublin. A typical extract might sound like this. 'Alright man, what's the bleedin' Jack and Nory bud, ya alright'. Not many people would get their head around that. So although that sounds exactly how a Dub called Deco might speak, from a writing point of view, it needs to be toned down. Just a hint of things like 'Alright bud' etc should signal to the actor where this character is from, what he sounds like, how he might carry himself etc.

I did highlight this myself in my original post . . .

Quoted from Eoin I did highlight this myself in my original post . . .

That's good. Then we agree.

you know, I would agree with you, but...  I changed the hunters' dialogue to thick redneck dialogue spelled out and they are no longer a problem. I'm not going to do Sierra's dialogue that way, but will look for more of a word usage that would be typical for the Detroit area. Maybe I should ask Cindy. she's in Michigan.  

Quoted from Grandma Bear you know, I would agree with you, but...  I changed the hunters' dialogue to thick redneck dialogue spelled out and they are no longer a problem.

Wait till the actors get a hold of it.

Gotta please producers before we get to actors....

Quoted from Grandma Bear Gotta please producers before we get to actors....

I still think you would have gotten away with hinting at it rather then going phonetic (if that's what you did).

I think about this quite a lot.

I tend to follow the Grand Argument theory of writing, not slavishly or as a template, but in the general idea that a story is an argument about something and that argument is played out as the story develops.

http://www.writebetweenthelines.com/ws_home/theory/dramatica_theory.htm

So The Terminator is the argument that Technology will make man obsolete.

The Terminator himself is the side of the argument that agrees with the statement..he is physically stronger, doesn't sleep, has no human weaknesses.

Your other characters in that story represent other values...love, spirituality, sacrifice, human spirit...this will change depending on what story you are telling.

So in that particular case the argument ends that: No, technology will not make humans obsolete because the power of the human spirit is greater than that of cold logic.

So if your characters are really adding something different to a story, they will generally be expressing some point of view and therefore be materially different from each other.


As far as it goes with reading:

I see it quite a lot where the characters are all basically the writer...they express themselves in similar ways. One particular facet that crops up quite a bit is that they tend to have similar humour...it may be so pronounced that their jokes are often based on film culture (because the writer is a big film fan).

To make sure they are different, make sure they have different motivations, different desires and different psychologies.

For instance, in the case of the two brothers...one will be dominant and the other less so. This will come across through the way they interact with each other and other people. The dominant one will naturally act more proactively, may take charge, but he may also cause resentment to his brother...how does that change the way they act in key scenes and key moments?

One of my friends who is a relatively successful Director has quite a significant weakness when it comes to writing IMO. He tends to have scenes that play out in one point of view. For instance if he makes a philosophical film, then all the characters start talking in a philosphical manner...when it's better if the characters represent different philosphies but don't discuss them.

So a Hedonist just parties and drinks and refuses to get caught up in deep discussion, rather than standing there and discussing the philosophy itself. Otherwise what happens is that it seems like it's just the same character who just has different beliefs..but he's always the calm, collected individual who talks about philosophy.

A good example would be Big Lebowski where there's lots of characters but they all have hugely dfferent personalities which represent different ways of viewing the world...from Anarchists, Nihilists, to Capitalists etc..the story then progresses and we get to evaluate all these different personality types.

Hopefully you can understand what I mean.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films As far as it goes with reading: I see it quite a lot where the characters are all basically the writer...they express themselves in similar ways. One particular facet that crops up quite a bit is that they tend to have similar humour...it may be so pronounced that their jokes are often based on film culture (because the writer is a big film fan).

Thanks Rick! Always great to have you chime in and of course you managed to say clearly what I tried in my own clumsy way.

There are some writers here at SS that I admire, but they too tend to have characters that is distinctly the writer speaking.

I might be wrong but I think much of it depends on a genre. I watched Minority report (for hte first time!) yesterday and thought to myself how unique Tom Cruise's character is and if his voice is unique (or any of them in that movie as a matter of face, except for the Russian doctor and his crazy nurse) and I don't think he or any other in it sound unique.

When it's about Macho Libre - he's unique, Encarnacion is unique etc.
For me it depends on the genre.

Pia,

In response to your original question as it pertains to Finders Keepers -- I've read a lot of your writing, albeit not that script, and you don't have that problem.  Some people definitely do have that problem.  You don't.  If you're being told that your characters sound the same it's probably by people with no imagination, because you're a better writer than that.

I won't say more than that because it seems to me that everyone who has responded above has made excellent points and there's not much to add.

Personal opinion, from a writer with minimal experience, but I worry less about whether characters all sound the same, then whether they sound like themselves. Five guys upper class college students from Boston all sounding basically the same doesn't phase me.

A drug dealer, a fashion model, a college student, an immigrant and a 10 yr old all sounding the same would set major "WTF??".

I've never had an issue using a hint of slang or accent - I can write 'What th' hell you doin'?' and never run into anyone who has a problem reading it. On the other hand, if I wrote 'Wha'd hell ya doin?' it will throw some people off and they need a moment to figure it out - which throws them out of the story.

I do think a lot just comes down to word choices though. How many different ways are there of saying answerings 'How is your day?'  
- it's going good
- Great!
- Looking up
- Could be worse.
- OMG, I have got to tell you about . . .
- Alright
- I love sunny days
- Tiring, but good.

And that's just (semi) positive replies. Granted, most scripts won't have a bunch of characters having filler discussion about how their day is, but the same applies to anything someone says - there are lots of ways to say the same basic thing.

Pia -

Here's three brothers in a short that, while not super fantabulous, still did pretty good.



Dialog-wise, do they each "sound" pretty much the same? To me they do.
Didn't the actors bring a fair bit of differentiation between them? I think so. But their dialog didn't drag me down.
It's all fine to me.

And did I hear you correct back on the other thread that one of the producers wanted to change Thomas into a black/AfAm character? Mitch, too? Or did mom just have an active lifestyle?

Quoted from JessicaBurde A drug dealer, a fashion model, a college student, an immigrant and a 10 yr old all sounding the same would set major "WTF??".

I've read scripts, here, where they write such diverse characters, hoping that these character descriptions will be enough to identify the characters.  Usually, the writers fail at this.  They describe how the characters look and, after that, they're all the same.

Another problem with this diviersity is that the writer doesn't explain why the characters are together; under normal circumstances they wouldn't be together.  It worked in The Breakfast Club, but there was a reason why those particular characters were together.  I remember reading a script where the high school jock, the goth girl, the nerd and the JAP went to a haunted house together.  It was pretty unrealistic that these four would be friends...


Phil

Quoted from RayW Pia - Here's three brothers in a short that, while not super fantabulous, still did pretty good.

That was pretty cool.