I have a quick question for something I see in a lot of reviews and something I tend to mention as well. I'm beginning to wonder if the advice I've given is right.

I often see people talk about the use of words ending in "ing" in their scripts. There are two sides to the argument. Some say that they shouldn't be included ANYWHERE in a script, where others, like me, are a little more tolerant to the idea. Personally, I don't mind the odd word ending in "ing" here and there. However, when there are too many, I usually say something about it.

What's your take? Do you mind the odd "ing" or should they be excluded from writing all the time??

There is no limit to what the masses will believe - Mussolini

Man, it boggles the mind.

Writers' should be concerned about telling the most visually compelling, and effective story.  "Worry about your story, dialogue, pacing," not whether you should or shouldn't be using things like "WE SEE" or "ING," ect... in your script."  The goal-- to make your script a quick, clean, and engaging read, then that's all that matters along with, yes " the story."

Matter of fact, I've read lots of scripts, and 99.9% of them had "ING" somewhere in there.  I can't remember one that didn't.  And I'd be leary of anyone who says, you should never do this or that, as it relates to screenwriting.


My thoughts...

Ghostie

Dan, it's not "words ending in ing", it's using passive sentence structure, in which your primary verb is "passive", which means it ends in "ing".

You do not want to write this way.  Period.

That's not to say you literally can't ever do it, but you want to shy away from it, especially early on and especially when it's so simple to correct.

A cat is sitting on a porch.

A cat sits on a porch.

I was told early on not to use them. I still don't. In reality, it doesn't seem to matter. Story is what matter most.

Personally I have been told my scripts are usually easy and fast reads. No one has ever said I'm a great writer as far as the writing itself goes, but easy and fast is positives in my book. I even avoid using the word "and" if I can. My style is not going to win any writing awards, but someone once told me that the simpler the writing, the easier it is to just see the story for what it is.  

Hey Dan - how're you doing? You open up a can of worms here. Stay shy of 'ing', for a bunch of reasons:

Passivity vs strong (active) sentences. This is to do with participles and Gerunds (google if you don't know).

Shorter is better - you add to sentence length when you chuck in 'ing' & 'ly' without good cause.

Thick People: They find passive sentences harder to understand (this is true).

The majority of 'ing' words are associated with past tense, and you need to go with active.

There's heaps of stuff on this if you google, so start off with:

http://www.justaboutwrite.com/blog/2012/04/01/strengthen-your-writing-2-beware-of-ing-disease/

http://writethebest.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/beware-of-ing-and-iy-words.html

http://jenniferlauckmemoirwriting.com/writing-tip-2-ly-and-ing-words

I certainly worked hard on this subject when I was new to screenwriting but to be completely honest, it doesn't bother me at all now unless it's done in abundance and is hurting the flow of the story.

In fact, I'll quote Ghostie if I may who said it better than I ever will.

Quoted from ghost and_ghostie gal Writers' should be concerned about telling the most visually compelling, and effective story.  "Worry about your story, dialogue, pacing," not whether you should or shouldn't be using things like "WE SEE" or "ING," ect... in your script."  The goal-- to make your script a quick, clean, and engaging read, then that's all that matters along with, yes " the story."

I couldn't agree more...

If you're an unknown in the industry, consider NOT INGing up your script.
Why?

Because people will judge your work by industry standards if you're a stranger to them.
And an overabundance of passive prose is a red flag to most folks.

That's why I avoid anything like that.
It encourages readers to pass judgement on me before they give my prose a chance.

I don't look for reasons to get producers to say yes to me...
What I want to do is remove as many reasons that might say no as possible.

Regards,
E.D.

Quoted from Electric Dreamer I don't look for reasons to get producers to say yes to me... What I want to do is remove as many reasons that might say no as possible.

I've said this many times before and Brett nails it here again.  This is the bottom line, people.

You can go on and on about story being King and this and that don't mean shit, but the reality is exactly this.  If you write like an amateur and make amateur mistakes, you're not going to be taken seriously by folks who are serious.

Avoid red flags whenever possible.  It's really very simple to do, if you make even the slightest effort.

Write in the active voice, not the passive voice.  AS others have said, if you don't understand that, just Google it. You'll find hundreds of sites that will help, but in a nutshell, we're talking about not writing your primary verb in the passive tense.

A verb with 'ing' added on is know as the present continuous tense and should be avoided where possible in screenwriting.

Write is the present simple tense, as illustrated in the examples above.

Eoin

Not trying to be argumentative but I don't see a big deal if I write this:

The cat sits on the porch, licking its paws.

Ok, it's not exactly what the thread is talking about but it could be construed as similar.

I'm trying for a different style in my new script, and am using a few...(shock,horror) unfilmables. I don't really care anymore. Of course it will all be formatted correctly. But I'm going for some more oomph instead of the boring shit.

Stevie, you are correct.  There is nothing wrong with your example, as your main verb is active.  Secondary verbs can be passive.

Thanks everyone for responding to my question. I know what passive writing is and I do try to avoid it whenever possible. I just wanted to see if other people are slowly getting over following these rules that are actually more like guidelines. I mean, I'll follow them for the sake of hopefully getting picked up by producers, but they really are becoming a little bit of a pain.

Jeff, you said something that I was a bit surprised to see...

Quoted from Dreamscale Stevie, you are correct.  There is nothing wrong with your example, as your main verb is active.  Secondary verbs can be passive.

I didn't know that. I've always kept my secondary verb active, as well. I've also told people to keep ALL verbs active... WHOOPS!

I never knew about this.  I don't use it often, but sometimes I have to like this one.

Kilmor can only stand and watch his horse fleeing away from an enemy's fire.

How can you rewrite the above sentence without using "ing" in "flee"

Kilmore can only stand and watch as his horse flees from enemy fire.

Quoted from coldbug I never knew about this.  I don't use it often, but sometimes I have to like this one. Kilmor can only stand and watch his horse fleeing away from an enemy's fire. How can you rewrite the above sentence without using "ing" in "flee"

Kilmor watches as his horse flees from the enemy's fire/gun report

Kilmore watches his horse flee from enemy fire.

what about,

Sevil stands in the shallow water, fishing while the rider comes strong from behind.

Quoted from coldbug what about, Sevil stands in the shallow water, fishing while the rider comes strong from behind.

That's actually fine as it is.  However, I would replace stands with wades and it could probably be less clumsy if it were two sentences.  

http://www.screenwritinggoldmine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5292

It makes sense after reading the above site.

It is inappropriate to write "John runs to the store" if the writer wants the scene in the mid-run.  

The bullet strikes Mary's chest.

EXT: MARKET STREET -DAY

John is running to the store.

ok....here we take a quick cut to the street and catch John in a mid-run.  So, you can't write "John runs to the store"

To show that is is not really true when someone says you shouldn't use "ing", I copied and pasted one of the member's reply from the site.
---------------------------------------------------------


The active simple present tense is often the best choice, but not always. Sometimes it makes absolutely no difference. And sometimes it’s not the best choice.


I) INT.FOOD COURT - DAY

Melinda spots her sister Suzie at a table with the popular clique. Suzie is wearing Melinda’s favourite sweater. Melinda…blah blah blah.

The simple present “Suzie wears Melinda’s favourite sweater” is unidiomatic in this context.

II) INT. MARY’S HOUSE - DAY

Mary enters the house, her arms weighed down by groceries. She pokes her head in the living room. A huge sigh of frustration bellows forth from her lungs. Her son, BOBBY (17) is still playing video games.

MARY
(bellowing – to Bobby)
I told you to wash the dishes 3 hours ago!!!

The simple present “Her son, BOBBY (17) still plays video games” would suggest a different meaning. It would imply that Bobby is too old to play video games, that he should be outgrown them already.


III) EXT.CROWDED ESPLANADE - DAY

Jenny runs along the esplanade. She darts in and out of the crowd: mothers with strollers, roller bladders, cyclists, joggers, and all the others, who are merely meanderers.

She spots Steve. He's leaning on the rail, gazing forlornly at the water. She draws closer…blah blah blah.

“He leans on the rail” would have a different meaning here. It would suggest that Steve was not leaning on the rail the moment that Jenny spotted him, and then he leaned on the rail. It suggests a discrete action that takes place after the spotting, not an act that is in progress. So it makes sense here to use the progressive because the act is in progress.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coldbug, you're reading WAY TOO MUCH into this and the examples you're giving.

All your examples are fine written in the present tense, even though you think they aren't.

John runs - does not mean that he starts running. It means that he is running.  If you want to show him literally start to run, you'll want to say that, but remember, a spec script cannot and should not try to show and give exact details, only visual ques so your reader can "see' the action and story in their heads.

BTW, most of your examples are overwritten, which is why they tend to get "sticky" with what you're trying to show. Keep it simple, but write visually.  Keep it active as well.

John runs to the store.

is a more active way of saying

John is running to the store.

No matter how you slice it what you see is that "John runs to the store" - even if you catch it mid run.

It's more interesting to the reader if you stay active with your language.  It isn't necessarily incorrect to use "is running" but it makes it a better read if he "runs".  

Good example Stevie

In my rookie from single A ball opinion...everyone is right!

Story is king. Avoid red flagging your script as amateur. Active language generally more visual so is preferred.

I will add one thing, however. Screenwriting rules are there to make better writing. So they are rules of thumb, not hard and fast rules, like grammar. Therefore any time one finds the "rules" causing the writing of a certain phrase to be awkward or less effective...break the Dog D@mn rule! Seriously.

I see people absorb these rules and force them into every situation, and the result damages the readability of the script.

Stevie's gives a perfect example. Many writers will do cartwheels to avoid this passive verb, in this case 'licking', and the result is...bad writing. In my rookie opinion.

Jeff gives a useful way to know when the passive is ok: when it is not the primary.

Also useful is to just realize that if it sounds clumsy or is unclear...or will make the reader stumble in any way...you need to consider breaking the "rule".

Alright, being sent back down to the farm league. I'll be back though! Jeff's getting ready to retire, there will be openings!

Quoted from leitskev Good example Stevie In my rookie from single A ball opinion...everyone is right! Story is king. Avoid red flagging your script as amateur. Active language generally more visual so is preferred. I will add one thing, however. Screenwriting rules are there to make better writing. So they are rules of thumb, not hard and fast rules, like grammar. Therefore any time one finds the "rules" causing the writing of a certain phrase to be awkward or less effective...break the Dog D@mn rule! Seriously. I see people absorb these rules and force them into every situation, and the result damages the readability of the script. Stevie's gives a perfect example. Many writers will do cartwheels to avoid this passive verb, in this case 'licking', and the result is...bad writing. In my rookie opinion. Jeff gives a useful way to know when the passive is ok: when it is not the primary. Also useful is to just realize that if it sounds clumsy or is unclear...or will make the reader stumble in any way...you need to consider breaking the "rule". Alright, being sent back down to the farm league. I'll be back though! Jeff's getting ready to retire, there will be openings!

Right-o!

I think "active" writing is almost always easily feasible, not to mention preferable, and I think writers should always shoot for crisp, flowing writing, which the "ing" rule usually enables. Still, bending over backwards to conform to rules of any kind kinda misses the point and flat out doesn't work out.

Quoted from Dreamscale I've said this many times before and Brett nails it here again.  This is the bottom line, people. You can go on and on about story being King and this and that don't mean shit, but the reality is exactly this.  If you write like an amateur and make amateur mistakes, you're not going to be taken seriously by folks who are serious. Avoid red flags whenever possible.  It's really very simple to do, if you make even the slightest effort. Write in the active voice, not the passive voice.  AS others have said, if you don't understand that, just Google it. You'll find hundreds of sites that will help, but in a nutshell, we're talking about not writing your primary verb in the passive tense.

Thanks for the endorsement, pal!

Funny you should point this out right now...

Just last night I got word back from a feature producer that read Clone Wife.
He liked the script (which is good). But... He really liked my writing more.
So that prodco offered me an open invitation to send him my scripts, ANYTIME!

This is EXACTLY WHY I'm in the "red flag removal" business.

Regards,
E.D.

Verbs that end in -ing are not passive!  They're progressive!

http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/grammar/tenses.html
http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6362-lamont.htm

and now a video...




Phil


PS -- don't use progressive verbs.

Like I said ... can of worms.

Verbs that end in 'ing' can make a sentence passive, and that is the concern here.

A passive verb will make a passive sentence. Phil is correct that just ending a verb in 'ing' does not in itself make a sentence passive, but it is often the case.

Jeff referred to the primary verb - and making a sentence active is a case of the relationship that the primary verb has with the main noun (the subject of the sentence).

But irrespective of that - 'ing's simply add to length, and if you want to add in the complication of the often passifying 'is' (is running), to the length of the script:

John runs
by
John is running

You end up with potential passives (soft scripts vs active, interesting ones), + longer scripts  = disinterested readers. Why bother?

Simon, 'ing' only adds three characters if they are used on the secondary verb. You don't have to add 'is' in front of the PROGRESSIVE verb (Thanks Phil) if it's on the secondary verb.

For example...

"Derek sits on the deck, munching an apple."

to say the following just wouldn't make sense or read very well...

"Derek sits on the deck, is munching an apple."

I seriously hope readers don't get ancy over an extra three characters in a script. That's just pathetic  

I once wrote the coolest most badass scene ever!! But I ended up deleting it because I experienced immense anxiety when I tried to write, Pete and Bob sing....

Quoted from danbotha Simon, 'ing' only adds three characters if they are used on the secondary verb. You don't have to add 'is' in front of the PROGRESSIVE verb (Thanks Phil) if it's on the secondary verb. For example... "Derek sits on the deck, munching an apple." to say the following just wouldn't make sense or read very well... "Derek sits on the deck, is munching an apple." I seriously hope readers don't get ancy over an extra three characters in a script. That's just pathetic

It's not the single use, it's the continual use that is the problem, and will unnecesarily add to your script. You have to add to this the option of potentially passifying your sentences too, as well as the association with the past tense - that's not to say it occurs in your example, but will over the 100+ page of a script.

As I said, the concern is when the primary verb passifies (the subject of) the sentence. In your example, you have made an active sentence, whereas:

"Sitting on the deck, Derek is munching an apple."

Is a passive sentence, and therefore requires the 'is' - and even where:

"Sitting on the deck, Derek munches an apple."

... does not require this 'is', the sentence is still passive.

Ah, yeah that does make sense. Sorry I didn't read your post correctly

Basically, I believe the easiest way to avoid this issue is simply by not using 'is' or 'are' before the verb. Bottom line is, verbs ending in 'ing' are not automatically passive.

http://johnaugust.com/2012/grammar-guns-butter
*http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/active-voice-versus-passive-voice.aspx

None that I can think of.

@dreamscale-- are you referring to my original question/post, before the edit?

Yes...didn't see the edit, actually.

I happy you caught it and replied.

Hey butters.

Yeah, for me, it's simple and obvious.  Stay away from passive writing, which I call passive verbiage.  Just no reason to do it, as it's usually so easy to write the line the way it should be written in the first place.

If you have a compound sentence and you use a passive 2nd or 3rd verb?  No big deal.  Who cares.

But, most importantly, you CANNOT write poorly out of the gate.  You just can't. Many readers will immediately pick up the mistakes and before they even realize it, that's all they're focusing on.

So important.  Seriously.

If nothing else, think of it this way...

You want to get as much good visual info on each page, right?  when you write passively, you're always going to use more letters, more spaces, and more of the page.

Don't do it...and when you see someone else doing it, note to self and see if you don't start understanding how it works and why it works.

Thanks, Dreamscale!

Quoted from bjamin Basically, I believe the easiest way to avoid this issue is simply by not using 'is' or 'are' before the verb. Bottom line is, verbs ending in 'ing' are not automatically passive. http://writewow.blogspot.com/2008/01/active-and-passive-voice.html

Hi Butters. Your John August post is fine, but you need to ditch the 'writewow' blog link. The examples given are incorrect, and this is pointed out by a poster at the end of the post, and is acknowledged by the writer.

If people check the link briefly it's only going to lead to more confusion.

Simon

will do.

I get that this ‘ing’ thing is an issue and that many other things could be wrong with a script, but I wish I could read more posts on here where people focused on the story at hand instead of the grammatical errors, formatting, and other issues.  I see it a lot where someone brings up formatting and this and that, but hardly anything about the actual story in a script.  I can understand maybe posting a link or two for advice, but maybe comment on the story as well.

And you get that a script isn't attached to his thread? This is in the screenwriting class section? That's what this section is for.

If you want something in this section that focusses on a story aspect of script-writing, then just post one up.

Reap, listen, man...it's like this...

If a script isn't well written, or is downright poorly written, that's what jumps out.

The actual story/plot/whatever you want to call it, is rarely a highlight, even when a script is very well written.  But, no one's ever gong to know that because they're never going to read all the way, when there are rookie mistakes littering every page.

Passive writing is only 1 small issue with poor writing.  But, it's also 1 issue that's so simple to fix...or better yet, never do in the first place.

Quoted from Forgive And you get that a script isn't attached to his thread? This is in the screenwriting class section? That's what this section is for. If you want something in this section that focusses on a story aspect of script-writing, then just post one up.

Jeez, I didn’t mean for anyone to get so snappy.

I was still on topic, I still mentioned passive writing in my post.

I’m not going to start a whole new thread on any of this stuff, it’s not that big of an issue for me.

Quoted from Dreamscale Reap, listen, man...it's like this... If a script isn't well written, or is downright poorly written, that's what jumps out. The actual story/plot/whatever you want to call it, is rarely a highlight, even when a script is very well written.  But, no one's ever gong to know that because they're never going to read all the way, when there are rookie mistakes littering every page. Passive writing is only 1 small issue with poor writing.  But, it's also 1 issue that's so simple to fix...or better yet, never do in the first place.

I get where you’re coming from.

I tend to open up a script and try to push through it no matter what.

I can ignore some things - but if a script’s story/characters suck - I’ll x it out.

I’ll just drop out now, I don’t want anyone getting worked up over what I said.