Quoted from Dreamscale OK, James.  I don't want to get in anymore arguments with peeps about this or that, as I'm just tired of i.

Really?

Quoted from Dreamscale I will say just a few things and we can leave it at that, or you can respond back again.

Ah  

Quoted from M.Alexander I enjoy a western as much as the next guy.  But, James, you're gonna hafta kill off some of your babies.  I.E. the V.O. It's just too much.   Bottom line. On a positive note, you do have a knack for writing dialogue.

Thankee

Yer welcome.  I just took another look at it trying to figure out how you could break up that V.O.  it's almost like you need another character sitting at the table with him.   First thing that comes to mind is the Carl's monologue to "Slingblade" when he's talking to the Reporter.

If it was me I'd have him talking to a figment of his magination.  But, alas, it's your story, not mine.  

Good luck with it.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Really? Ah

Thanks, Dustin.  Good to see you trying to keep the peace.  We all appreciate your comments, bud.  Keep it up.

Quoted from Dreamscale OK, James.  I don't want to get in anymore arguments with peeps about this or that, as I'm just tired of i and it never goes anywhere.

I didn't realize there was really argument. After all, your criticism had points that I'm rejecting based on evidence. I never initiated nor desired to initiate an argument. I'm just saying the evidence is proving your point wrong. That's all.

Quoted from Dreamscale I will say just a few things and we can leave it at that, or you can respond back again. We've all seen pretty much anything anyone can bring up in scripts, be they high level Pro, or low level amateur.  Just because a Pro does something, it doesn't mean it's right or the way everyone should write. If a date, time, year, whatever is important to your story, you need to use a SUPER.  The reason for writing a script is to have it turned into a film.  Anyone watching a filmed version of this will not know what year it is, as they will not be able to read your Slug.  There's just no reason to do this and the more complicated your scripts become, the more issues you'll have if you continue this.

So I'm curious, if I'm not suppose to be looking to the Pro's scripts because they could be wrong, who am I suppose to be looking to? The rules? Where are those rules? Who created them? Who gave the person authority to create them? That's a highly unsubstantiated claim you're making. But I'm not going to argue with you on it.

Quoted from Dreamscale Having a V.O. take place for minutes on end with absolutely nothing going on onscreen is never, ever going to fly.

That's an opinion, and I respect that. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm just not buying the confidence you have that it wouldn't work. Variation, breaking the rules, stretching the bounds, is what the great screenwriters, or at least I consider them great, have done. Should we be wary, absolutely.

Quoted from Dreamscale Films are visual experiences.  I just can't imagine sitting somewhere watching a a guy smoke a cig or 2 for 4 or 5 minutes while a V.O. takes place.  Just is not the way to go at all and never will be.

I like listening to people telling stories. If the story is interesting, I will listen to that person talk for 5 minutes. That's just me. That's how I see things.

Quoted from Dreamscale You say tat you had to do it this way, based on the backstory you have to tell, but what you're really saying is that this story, told this way, is not meant to be a visual or filmed entity.  It's just not.  It sounds more like a short story, and there's quite a huge difference.

I think it would be lacking without the back story. The V.O. is visual in the mind of the audience not on screen, yes.

Quoted from Dreamscale I wish you the best with this and only intend on helping out where I think I can.  Take care.

I know you do, and I appreciate the feedback. I really do. Some of it has been helpful, certainly.

Quoted from M.Alexander Yer welcome.  I just took another look at it trying to figure out how you could break up that V.O.  it's almost like you need another character sitting at the table with him.   First thing that comes to mind is the Carl's monologue to "Slingblade" when he's talking to the Reporter. If it was me I'd have him talking to a figment of his magination.  But, alas, it's your story, not mine.   Good luck with it.

Thanks. Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Like he's actually doing a soliloquy, not a voice over, but I thought it might appear odd. Who knows, I might have to mull it over and try that angle

Thanks again.

Quoted from J.S. I didn't realize there was really argument. After all, your criticism had points that I'm rejecting based on evidence. I never initiated nor desired to initiate an argument. I'm just saying the evidence is proving your point wrong. That's all. So I'm curious, if I'm not suppose to be looking to the Pro's scripts because they could be wrong, who am I suppose to be looking to? The rules? Where are those rules? Who created them? Who gave the person authority to create them? That's a highly unsubstantiated claim you're making. But I'm not going to argue with you on it.

No, we're not arguing, and there's no reason we should.  If Dustin wants to argue, that can be arranged, however.

My point about "just because a Pro does it, doesn't make it right" should really be taken exactly as that.  Thinking that because someone else does something makes it OK, is not a good way of thinking.

Rick Barry was arguably the best freethrow shooter in history, but that doesn't mean that kids should practice their freethrows underhand.

Tim Tebow was very successful in college, scored a big NFL contract and even had success his first season, but no one is gong to argue that his throwing mechanics are anything anyone should try and emulate.

Most Pro writers do not write Spec scripts.  Pro writers do not go through reading gatekeepers.

Quentin Tarantino is easily one of the most loved screenwriters out there, but young, inexperienced writers should not read his scripts and try to emulate his style, or say that because QT did it, I can get away with it as well.

I will agree with you that it's not a conventional spec script, and it probably doesn't succeed at that.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the QT part. I know I certainly wasn't going for his style. The inspiration for the style is Southern Gothic.

EDIT: Tennessee Williams's style is kinda similar to this, I think. I'll have to get back to reading his work.

Quoted from Dreamscale Most Pro writers do not write Spec scripts.  Pro writers do not go through reading gatekeepers.

One is a pro writer once they write for a living. You can be a pro and sell spec' scripts. Look at Blake Snyder. He sold 13 spec scripts. It's called being freelance. zzzzzz

Quoted from Dreamscale Quentin Tarantino is easily one of the most loved screenwriters out there, but young, inexperienced writers should not read his scripts and try to emulate his style, or say that because QT did it, I can get away with it as well.

Of course they can. It is the story and your talent that stands out the most. There are certain rules we should follow but there are are also many that we don't have to. For example. You told me in my thread to never go over 4 lines of action. LOL. If a shot takes 5 or 6 lines of action then so be it. It is also fine to use flowery prose to help set the tone. Indeed it is imperative. It is part of the skill... knowing when to do it and when not to.

The reason pro scripts break all the rules is because there are only really a few basic rules to writing a screenplay. Pro's know that it is the story that stands out the most and they use the tools available to make that story read well. Amateurs over think things... why aren't I selling?
You know what though, it may not even be that you're a bad writer, it could just be that you don't know how to network. You've got to get yourself out there or even great writers can be left languishing.


I know why you are the way you are, DS. Because you don't know any different. You have no real experience, only that which you have gleaned from posting on the internet. So you repeat what you have read just like the rest of us. You can't know though, because you're not a pro. Go over to the Done Deal forums where the pro's do post and you'll see that they argue all the time. The reason for that is because they all have different experiences. Some will say it is fine to use camera angles and others will say it isn't. Some will say it is fine to use flowery prose and others will say it isn't.

What other qualifications do you have aside from posting shite on the internet?

Quoted from DustinBowcot One is a pro writer once they write for a living. You can be a pro and sell spec' scripts. Look at Blake Snyder. He sold 13 spec scripts. It's called being freelance. zzzzzz Of course they can. It is the story and your talent that stands out the most. There are certain rules we should follow but there are are also many that we don't have to. For example. You told me in my thread to never go over 4 lines of action. LOL. If a shot takes 5 or 6 lines of action then so be it. It is also fine to use flowery prose to help set the tone. Indeed it is imperative. It is part of the skill... knowing when to do it and when not to. The reason pro scripts break all the rules is because there are only really a few basic rules to writing a screenplay. Pro's know that it is the story that stands out the most and they use the tools available to make that story read well. Amateurs over think things... why aren't I selling? You know what though, it may not even be that you're a bad writer, it could just be that you don't know how to network. You've got to get yourself out there or even great writers can be left languishing. I know why you are the way you are, DS. Because you don't know any different. You have no real experience, only that which you have gleaned from posting on the internet. So you repeat what you have read just like the rest of us. You can't know though, because you're not a pro. Go over to the Done Deal forums where the pro's do post and you'll see that they argue all the time. The reason for that is because they all have different experiences. Some will say it is fine to use camera angles and others will say it isn't. Some will say it is fine to use flowery prose and others will say it isn't. What other qualifications do you have aside from posting shite on the internet?

Dustin, as I said, I don't want to get into any more arguments with completely insignificant little fuckwads like you.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and the more you talk, the more obvious it is.

You have no idea who I am, what I know, why I know it, or what I've gone through in life.  You really think I parrot what I've heard over the years over and over because I don't know anything better or worse?  Wrong, shithead...wrong.

You squawk out the same crap so many other untalented hacks do about story being king and nothing else matters...as if these gilded Pro writers write all these amazing stories.  You obviously have little knowledge of actual movies if you think story is actually king.  And not that it shouldn't be, but just take a look in any cineplex, TV, or DVD.

You've shown your hand early, Dustin and it's clear you hold no aces.  I highly doubt you even hold a single face card.

Please crawl back into that little shit hole, you call a home and quit trying to piss peeps off.

Quoted from Dreamscale Dustin, as I said, I don't want to get into any more arguments with completely insignificant little fuckwads like you.

You're such a tease.

Quoted from Dreamscale You have no idea who I am, what I know, why I know it, or what I've gone through in life.  You really think I parrot what I've heard over the years over and over because I don't know anything better or worse?  Wrong, shithead...wrong.

I couldn't care less what you have gone through in life... What does that have to do with the opinion I've gathered from your posts at this forum?

Quoted from Dreamscale You squawk out the same crap so many other untalented hacks do about story being king and nothing else matters...as if these gilded Pro writers write all these amazing stories.  You obviously have little knowledge of actual movies if you think story is actually king.  And not that it shouldn't be, but just take a look in any cineplex, TV, or DVD.

Story is King... along with talent to execute the story well. I have no idea what you mean by gilded writers. You should learn to handle the weed before posting here stoned. Do a second draft on that paragraph and maybe I'll understand wtf it means.

Quoted from Dreamscale You've shown your hand early, Dustin and it's clear you hold no aces.  I highly doubt you even hold a single face card. Please crawl back into that little shit hole, you call a home and quit trying to piss peeps off.

Well, I seriously expected more fight, Dreamscale. I'm sorely disappointed in you.

Hey Dustin. This all seems to be getting very personal toward Jeff - you appear to have an agenda against him for some reason? I don't know how this is helping your writing, and I don't know what you, personally, are gaining from it.

Jeff gives a lot of good advice, and as you well know, anyone's experience will not necessarily be the route-path for everyone else to follow.

As far as I know many pro-writers do not tend toward spec-scripts, and I have only come to that conclusion as other media has found it note-worthy when an established writer sells a spec-script - so by default implying it doesn't happen so often. Doctoring and commissions yes, and specs sometimes yes, but if there is an alternative to specs (and people are coming to you), then why would you do that? The other outlet of course, is production of your own work which circumvents the whole spec angle, even if it's via a company you are pushing to.

The so-called breakin' all the rules bit. Well, you have to know the rules first before you can play with them to enhance your work. This is different to breaking them, as I'm sure that you are aware.

As I'm also sure you've sent work to the Writers Room, I think that you must understand that there are a limited number of people who act as gate-keepers when it comes to reading peoples' scripts, and these people are going to have rules, standards, and principles, which writers have to be aware of. Sending off to readers/dir./prods on spec is an entirely different market to commissions or similar, and I think that anyone who is writing to that (spec) market needs to understand that.

Even if you do have some level of talent and can write well (and I mean 'you'), you are only at best border-level pro, and not yet fully established in the industry, which even if you are more advanced in your progress than many people here, doesn't actually give you the right to act as the same authority as you criticise Jeff for being.

My take on this? You see Jeff as Top Dog here, and you've targeted him for your own purposes, and have not understood that it won't actually do your writing any good - which is what most of us are here for, and which, unlike yourself, Jeff has spent many years helping and assisting people with. What I've learnt is that nobody (least of all you) is actually the final word in screen-writing, and we get better by helping each other out.

Quoted from Forgive Hey Dustin. This all seems to be getting very personal toward Jeff - you appear to have an agenda against him for some reason? I don't know how this is helping your writing, and I don't know what you, personally, are gaining from it.

I haven't said a single bad word about jeff... yet he calls me a fuckwad, shithead and whatever else he said. To me it means nothing, is actually funny. I don't see why I'm the one being accused of personal attacks. I'm just defending myself. He can't disagree without resorting to personal attacks.

Quoted from Forgive Jeff gives a lot of good advice, and as you well know, anyone's experience will not necessarily be the route-path for everyone else to follow.

He just repeats what he's been told... over and over again, getting more hateful each time he spouts it. He's deliberately hurtful to people and is something of a bully.

Quoted from Forgive As far as I know many pro-writers do not tend toward spec-scripts, and I have only come to that conclusion as other media has found it note-worthy when an established writer sells a spec-script - so by default implying it doesn't happen so often. Doctoring and commissions yes, and specs sometimes yes, but if there is an alternative to specs (and people are coming to you), then why would you do that? The other outlet of course, is production of your own work which circumvents the whole spec angle, even if it's via a company you are pushing to.

I agree with you. However a hack, which is what good spec writers need to be, can make a good living feeding from the moment. Maybe if you want to break into commissioned writing, which I'll admit appeals to me in certain areas, like Dr Who and maybe other big projects like Batman then it may help sticking exactly to the rules.. but I don't think so. I genuinely believe that it is having fresh ideas that is the most important thing. You have to figure out a way of doing it completely different, make it more interesting. That's the real talent.

I also understand the other side of the coin though... where people want more of the same. I'm writing a new gangster flick. Basically met a bunch of up and coming actors and I can visualise them in certain roles. It's going to be more of the same. All I'm going to do is escalate the violence to a level similar to Gangster number 1. Again when it comes to trying to raise the money for the film, I doubt the script structure will matter all that much. The exec's reading it will just want to know if it can make money. I know people on here may laugh at a title making money, but it's true. Just your title alone is enough to guarantee a profit in most cases. Often producers are clubbing together their own scripts, or worse getting it from some half baked writer. Not to mention cutting corners on costs, everywhere, poor acting and directing. If you have a good story it's a bonus. The hard part is getting your scripts into the right hands... and then making sure the bastards do a good job on it.

Quoted from Forgive The so-called breakin' all the rules bit. Well, you have to know the rules first before you can play with them to enhance your work. This is different to breaking them, as I'm sure that you are aware.

Yeah.

Quoted from Forgive As I'm also sure you've sent work to the Writers Room, I think that you must understand that there are a limited number of people who act as gate-keepers when it comes to reading peoples' scripts, and these people are going to have rules, standards, and principles, which writers have to be aware of. Sending off to readers/dir./prods on spec is an entirely different market to commissions or similar, and I think that anyone who is writing to that (spec) market needs to understand that.

No, I actually only started back in August last year. So I missed the last window for the writer's room. I forgot all about that place actually. I do have a 3-part drama they may be interested in. I've already ran foul of a gatekeeper or two. I understand where you are coming from. Many of them though will not be put off by little things. It will be story structure, character arcs, sequence arcs, scene arcs and whatever other arcs you can think of... important stuff like that that will put them off. Not whether they are using 5 lines of action.

Quoted from Forgive Even if you do have some level of talent and can write well (and I mean 'you'), you are only at best border-level pro, and not yet fully established in the industry, which even if you are more advanced in your progress than many people here, doesn't actually give you the right to act as the same authority as you criticise Jeff for being.

I don't believe I do act with that authority. I humbly give my opinion... that is all. I'm also not established, I'm just trying really hard to be. I'm no further than anybody else here.

Quoted from Forgive My take on this? You see Jeff as Top Dog here, and you've targeted him for your own purposes, and have not understood that it won't actually do your writing any good - which is what most of us are here for, and which, unlike yourself, Jeff has spent many years helping and assisting people with. What I've learnt is that nobody (least of all you) is actually the final word in screen-writing, and we get better by helping each other out.

Top Dogs don't need to run around shouting -- they're cool, laid back, respectful to people. I just see Jeff as a bully, if you want the truth.

Quoted from DustinBowcot I haven't said a single bad word about jeff...

While this may technically be true, looking back over the thread, post 15 is officially you stirring up trouble.  Objectively, this comment serves no real purpose but to agitate.

Jeff responded briefly ( post 18 ) which should have been the end of it -- but you called him out yet again later in the thread.

Jeff will admit to his flaws (occasionally), and chief amongst them is his inability to ignore comments pointed directly at him.

Nobody appreciates arguments on their thread, Dustin, which provide only clutter.  Please try not to incite them.

We'll chalk this one up to the learning curve, but in the future, please do not feed the bears.

OK.  Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion of the script.

Cut it out, both of ya'.

!!!