Yeah finished both of the 250 scripts then turned my attention back to this. It needs a lot of work.

Well, writing is rewriting...

Never a truer word was said...well there probably was... but you know...

Out of curiosity, do most of you guys knock out a first draft before you do any rewriting?

I've never been able to do that, which is why I think it always takes me considerably longer than most to finish anything, haha.

What works in a treatment often goes against the grain when it comes time to tell the story. So I do a vomit draft, just throw down the execution I intend to go with and see what comes of it. Sometimes, that will mean I need to scrap what I've written and start again. Sometimes scrap it entirely for another time and then try executing it another way. So in a sense, it can take me a couple of years to truly do a concept justice, or I can nail it right away.

I think our biggest problem as storytellers lies not in finding ideas, but in choosing which direction to take a story. Today I arrived at a crossroads... where I had to consider going werewolf or not. Going werewolf would change the complete tone of the story. It's such a crossroads that I actually had to stop writing and wait and think. If I don't go in that direction, I need to think of another angle. If I do go werewolf, I have to do it different.

Writing a good story is like solving a particularly difficult puzzle. Sometimes our execution will be off and the puzzle will seem insurmountable... but that doesn't make the idea bad, it just means we need to find another method of execution and try again. Don't let it beat you. If you have something to say, then, imo, you have to keep going until you solve it. Else, it'll leave a hole in you... not a physical one, for all you literal mofos out there.

Quoted from LC I dunno... I'm going to put my head down this week and start all over again. Still just under four weeks to go, so maybe, and I'll give it a good shot. DS, hang in there. Keep going at it. You never know when inspiration might hit.

Cheers and good luck to you, as well! I think I'm starting from scratch, too. What I got up to was ho-hum anyway, didn't get a good sense of what I wanted to do. With a little under four weeks weeks to go -- it's far from hopeless, eh?

Quoted from DustinBowcot What works in a treatment often goes against the grain when it comes time to tell the story. So I do a vomit draft, just throw down the execution I intend to go with and see what comes of it. Sometimes, that will mean I need to scrap what I've written and start again. Sometimes scrap it entirely for another time and then try executing it another way. So in a sense, it can take me a couple of years to truly do a concept justice, or I can nail it right away. I think our biggest problem as storytellers lies not in finding ideas, but in choosing which direction to take a story. Today I arrived at a crossroads... where I had to consider going werewolf or not. Going werewolf would change the complete tone of the story. It's such a crossroads that I actually had to stop writing and wait and think. If I don't go in that direction, I need to think of another angle. If I do go werewolf, I have to do it different. Writing a good story is like solving a particularly difficult puzzle. Sometimes our execution will be off and the puzzle will seem insurmountable... but that doesn't make the idea bad, it just means we need to find another method of execution and try again. Don't let it beat you. If you have something to say, then, imo, you have to keep going until you solve it. Else, it'll leave a hole in you... not a physical one, for all you literal mofos out there.

Wow, that's interesting.  Even before I put a single word to the story, I have worked out an outline to show me every inch of the story.  I even know how long I want each segment to be.  So, once I get that and see how long the story is, according to my estimates, then I alter that and either add in, or take out.  I once had a story come to (in outline breakdowns) at 150 pages, which is terrible, so, I cut out 40 pages of ideas.  

We should have a discussion of this, all the ways to arrive at doing a story.  Then, if people have an idea of all the different styles out there, they can work on the one that suits their style the best.

Personally, I could never do a vomit draft.  Your story could end up being War and Peace vol 2 and that is death to a script.  Yes, Dune went like 4 hrs, but, even that was cut heavily.

For me, I think about each scene, think about what has to happen within that scene, outline it in notebook, then go to the next scene, all the time writing the time requirements that I envision it taking.  I usually give myself 5-8 for action scenes and 2-5 for most others and 6-9 for the big climax, but, each segment is carefully planned out...

What are some others that you live and die by?

Dan

I think you are right Dan, it's about finding the method that works for you... there's no right or wrong way (imho).

My first feature, I outlined extensively... the story then decided to go in a different direction... the second script was loosely outlined and it more or less went according to the loose plan... third script (which I've just finished) had no outline at all.

I think all three scripts work and I'm still unsure what the 'best' way for me is... I'm taking it one script at a time

Anthony  

Quoted from AnthonyCawood I think you are right Dan, it's about finding the method that works for you... there's no right or wrong way (imho). My first feature, I outlined extensively... the story then decided to go in a different direction... the second script was loosely outlined and it more or less went according to the loose plan... third script (which I've just finished) had no outline at all. I think all three scripts work and I'm still unsure what the 'best' way for me is... I'm taking it one script at a time Anthony

While I agree that it is up to each person, I can't imagine not using an outline.  Here's why:

I have a free-style background in creative writing.  There, you can truly vomit anything b/c there are no real limits, save for contest rules.  You can put out a 1000 page book and someone will read it (if it's good) and since you get paid by the word, it makes sense.

You can't do that in a manuscript.  So, what if you have a story that tops off at 180 pages?  That's bad.  Cutting 60 (or more) pages out of a script most likely tears the heart and soul out of the story.  Lets face it, that's the first thing to go.  It is also why some people get lost on some scenes b/c you forgot that this one sentence in act 1 page 4 has meaning in act 3 page 170 and it's a vital clue.  Gutting a story that much isn't always good.

The flip side is also bad.  Writing a story and getting it done on page 56 is (in some ways) worse.  You wrote this tight story (you hope) and it isn't long enough for a feature.  So what do you do now?  Add to it?  You are adding stuff you didn't think you needed.  Reshape it into a 1 hr story?  Then you have to cut (for commercials).  

Likewise, if you have 56 pages and it's a vomit draft that is really bad b/c it's already short, and now, you literally have to think of ideas to add to it.  

Carson at Scriptshadow said that most scripts start off really good, then around page 40, lose steam and then shock for the sake of shock, not b/c the story called for it.  

But, if you do an outline before, you can tell where you are before you commit X hours of your life and discover that it's too long or short.  You can add where it makes sense as you create your tale.  

Screenwriting is a task, set to rigid rules insofar as page count.  

Quoted from Toby_E Out of curiosity, do most of you guys knock out a first draft before you do any rewriting? I've never been able to do that, which is why I think it always takes me considerably longer than most to finish anything, haha.

No, definitely not. I'm with you, Toby.

I rewrite as I write...as in, I continually go back and edit what I've written.  When I'm done, I've got a finished draft that just needs a few more edits, but story-wise, I'm done.

No outline, no nothing like that.  The planning stage of writing is much longer than the actual writing, for me, and it takes place pretty much, all in my head.

I do the same/similar Jeff... I tend to review and edit what I wrote yesteday before I start with new pages...  

Dan - I think you've identified what works for you, and confirmed what I said about having our own methds.  

I'm still finding my 'best' way, and enjoying the journey.

Jeff and Dustin both think first and then write, Jeff edits as he goes, Dustin (I think) gets everything down and then starts the re-write process.

All three of us will re-write some more at the end.

Three different ways to do it, all three of us have written multiple features.

Did any of us do it wrong, or indeed yourself? No we just did it in the way that we're comfortable with.

Vive la defference.

Quoted from Dreamscale No, definitely not. I'm with you, Toby. I rewrite as I write...as in, I continually go back and edit what I've written.  When I'm done, I've got a finished draft that just needs a few more edits, but story-wise, I'm done. No outline, no nothing like that.  The planning stage of writing is much longer than the actual writing, for me, and it takes place pretty much, all in my head.

Jeff, I think we're talking about the same idea per se.  The only difference is that I write it down while you keep it in your head.  At one time I could do that, but, with age, pain meds, 3 cysts in my spinal canal blocking nutrients from going to my brain, lots of partying with alcohol and lots of heavy metal concerts, well, the old brain isn't what it used to be...

Kids, don't kill your brain cells.  You need them as you get older.  Trust me.  The one working brain cell that I have left is grumpy, sleeps far too long, takes too many brakes, and always wants vacations and days off.  I keep telling him that we're gonna hire someone new, but, man, it's tough finding working brain cells that want to exist in my brain...

So, point of the story is that you (Jeff) follow a rigid game plan in your head and keep to it before you write anything.  So, it isn't a vomit draft, but, a carefully planned and executed project that meeds several touches once you get done.

That's the idea I shoot for.  Lets hope I get there soon....

Damn it, why are you on ANOTHER break??????????!!!!!!!!!


Dan

Quoted from AnthonyCawood Dan - I think you've identified what works for you, and confirmed what I said about having our own methds.   I'm still finding my 'best' way, and enjoying the journey. Jeff and Dustin both think first and then write, Jeff edits as he goes, Dustin (I think) gets everything down and then starts the re-write process. All three of us will re-write some more at the end. Three different ways to do it, all three of us have written multiple features. Did any of us do it wrong, or indeed yourself? No we just did it in the way that we're comfortable with. Vive la defference.

I guess I see planning as a way of doing an outline.  Now, the going back and fixing is something I do as well, I bet we all do similar stuff and just call it different terminology.  But, if we were to meet and discuss in person, we'd find the method similar.

For instance, Jeff said the planning stage takes longer then the writing.  Same is true for me.  I plan it all out in my head and run it as a movie.  

As opposed to having an idea and just vomiting it out to see where it goes.  Now, I will admit that you can have some truly wonderful ideas that pop out if you write your lead into a bad corner and have an inventive way to get them out of that pickle.  

But, as I said, I'd be too afraid that my end product would end up being 180 pages or 59.  

Quoted from Dreamscale No, definitely not. I'm with you, Toby. I rewrite as I write...as in, I continually go back and edit what I've written.  When I'm done, I've got a finished draft that just needs a few more edits, but story-wise, I'm done. No outline, no nothing like that.  The planning stage of writing is much longer than the actual writing, for me, and it takes place pretty much, all in my head.

Snap. Exactly my method, as well. I normally rewrite/ edit/ delete everything that I've written the day previously, before I write anything new.

I also rewrite each act in its entirity, once I have finished putting those words down on paper.

I find it so fascinating how everyone has their different approach which works best for them.

I kinda do a mixture of things. I think every story is different. I have a few executions that I'll never show anybody, almost whole features in some cases, like 90 pages in. Then, just as I get to the end, and am happy with it, another idea occurs and I'll rewrite the whole thing with a different execution. In fact I also have a 140 page draft on my machine for Donny and Floyd, before I stripped all the jokes out of it and got it down to 90.

I don't want to put myself in a box only to contradict myself later down the line. I have varying methods of working. My favourite is when I get a fresh idea and have to put everything on hold just to write it... and I don't stop till it's done. Some stories I will actually make tiny plans throughout. I use a whiteboard and make notes... arrows... possible plot points etc.

It really depends.