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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Contests - Screenwriting and Filmmaking  ›  The Blcklst is a Scam? Moderators: Don
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  Author    The Blcklst is a Scam?  (currently 15746 views)
Dustin
Posted: January 20th, 2014, 1:35pm Report to Moderator
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This is taken from another site, here: http://www.screenwritinggoldmine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=70659#post70659


"I'm a screenwriter of course, and I've been writing for a long time. Not too long ago, a fellow screenwriter introduced me to The Blacklist; upload yer script, pay a lil fee, and wait (and hope) for a good rating to get some access or recognition to the Hollywood Players. I did a little research, saw a whole lot of good stuff about the Black List on the web, and its creator, Franklin Leonard, and decided to give it a go (hey why not? It sounded legit). I uploaded an action comedy (which has placed in the semi-finals and finals of Scriptalooza and Nicholl) and the results came back. My script scored a 4. I was shocked as sh*t. How dare them? LOL. Anyways, I plunked down another $50 for a second review (I figured that whomever read my script was high on drugs to rate it that low). My second review came back with a 5. Hmmm. I figured that a 3rd time would be the charm and went for it. Same script, no revisions. It came back with a 7 (not bad). Regardless, they say that if you don't score an 8 or more, the script won't get any attention. So after all that money spent, I was ass out, and my script wasn't going anywhere.

A friend of mine (who got a 6 on her script recently), called me, and the subject of the Black List came up. We started to compare notes, and noticed a kind of scoring pattern with our script evaluations. We got in touch with some of our other writer friends, and we all noticed the same thing: everyone was coming in under the magic number of 8 (except one person, and his script still didn't get any traction on the Black List site), even with multiple reviews. We thought, "maybe we all just suck," but that wasn't it. Between us all (and there are major contest finalists and winners amongst us), someone should have hit the mark somewhere, but nope. Nothing. Nada. We all had the same common denominator gripe though: our script review summaries (the non-numerical portions) seemed a little dodgy. Some of us got free review do-overs to correct the dodginess (a nice gesture by the folks at The Black List), but even the do-over reviews were suspect. Suspect along the lines of leading us to believe that these reviewers weren't the "experienced pros" we thought they were. Not good.

Long story short, we realized that if we had taken the time to read the fine print on the Black List site itself, we wouldn't have become victims of the "dangling carrot" system, and we would've all saved ourselves a lot of money (and mental anguish) in the process. This is what the site says about its evaluators (readers):

"All of our readers have WORKED as first filters for major agencies, studios, production companies, television studios, and management companies."

Yup. The operative word here is "worked," as in past tense, which now leads us to the following ad posted by the Black List and found on anonymousproductionassistant.com

"To meet still rising demand as 2014 begins, the Black List is hiring more professional screenplay and pilot readers to evaluate screenplays and pilots and write brief evaluations. Requirements remain the same: Applicants must be strong critical readers, elegant writers, and have minimum one year previous experience reading as, at least, employed first filters (i.e. not interns) for major Hollywood financiers, studios, networks, production companies, agencies, or management companies. Expected workload is minimum 15 screenplays/pilots per month, though the reading and evaluations can be completed at your leisure from wherever you are. Readers are paid on a per script basis. Screenplay and pilots longer than 30 minute readers currently receive $25 per script. Readers of pilots 30 minutes or shorter receive $15. Apply by sending a brief cover letter, resume, and two examples of previous coverage to terry@blcklst.com with the subject line “Black List Reader”

For $25 per script, the Readers at Black List are most likely part-timers or unemployed and destitute college students just starting out, or trying to get a foot in the door themselves. The mystery of the dodgy reviews has been solved, and now it all makes sense. You might say that it doesn't matter, because these are the "gatekeepers in the studio system." Yes, that's true, but the difference in this case lies in the fact that you typically don't PAY the gatekeepers in the system. With the Black List, you are paying: $25 to host your script on their site, and an additional $50 for a read (if you want to get your script attention, they say), and that leads us to this very valid question:

Why would any REAL decision maker in the Hollywood development system go through the Black List and accept the opinions of lowly, independent THIRD PARTY "readers" who don't even work for them in the first place, to evaluate a script? The answer? They don't, because they don't need to. They have in-house readers for that (an epiphany that should've occurred to me before I spent all that money).

Now you may say: "But they have Hollywood pro members that subscribe to the Black List and people have scored major deals or representation from the site." Ask yourself this: Who, and how many? The success stories are far and few in between. Did the people who scored deals already have representation? If you do your research, you'll see that the most popular deals were for those who already had reps (no coincidence), and for those who DIDN'T have reps that scored, who were they? (Last time I checked, it was a guy (Justin Kremer) who just so happened to have interned for the Black List (no coincidence).

The Black List prides itself on transparency (and they're not kidding), because what's least likely to happen (your big break) is spelled out right in front of you. Who are the Hollywood pro members that can allegedly jump start your career and change your life? Read what it says on the Black List site:

"The Black List counts over 2,000 film industry professionals AMONGST its membership ranging from major and mid-major agency assistants to studio presidents of production and working creative talent (actors, directors, etc.). These are people involved in making major studio motion pictures and independent films likely to play in festivals and get distribution."

Sounds fantastic doesn't it? Not so fast. The operative word here is the term "AMONGST." Out of 2,000 pros, the number of REAL players (the major and mid-major agency assistants and studio presidents of production, etc) that COULD be listed as members of the Black List, COULD be as little 6, and MAYBE as much as 300. You don't know (and you never will) because the Black List isn't going to share that info with you. Now look at the "working creative talent" line. Hey, I know of PLENTY of "working creative talent" that continue to work in obscurity (and you do, too, and yes, they're on imdb). Plainly speaking, they can't do sh*t for you, your career, or their own, because they're not in any position to call any shots whatsoever, and no one knows them because they're not famous. Now that you can clearly comprehend what "2,000 film industry professionals" can actually be, the Black List doesn't sound so enticing, does it? Of course not, because now it has become painfully obvious that the "dangling carrot" you continue to chomp at by purchasing evaluation reads with the hope of getting "access" to your big break, is nothing more than a mystery carrot; you don't know what it's really made of.

So is the Black List a scam? I don't know what you would call it, because they're telling you right to your face (albeit through not so obvious language) what they're all about, but I will say this; it's no different from ink tip. They're all feeding on your hopes and aspirations, and making a bundle of money from it. If you're truly going to invest in yourself and your career and you have to "pay to play," you're probably better off bribing a KNOWN literary agent or major studio in-house reader with a cash gift. At least this way you know for certain that your material is getting to the right hands (and I'm kind of joking and not joking when I say this).

The moral of the story here? Writer beware, because as you can see, something stinks here. Even The Bitter Script Reader (a popular screenwriting blogger) seems to have been fooled. It was brought to my attention that his script, "Toby is Now Following You," is currently on one of the Black List's top lists. Is it there because it's actually good? I don't know. I haven't read it. Could it be there by and through manipulated high score "reader" evaluations in order to "disarm" The Bitter Script Reader's usual astuteness for spotting BS? Could be. You don't know who is allegedly reading and scoring your script from behind the scenes. But one thing is for sure, I don't think it's a coincidence that The Bitter Script Reader's script is on one of the top lists. If someone like The Bitter Script Reader were to NOT be on your side, the money train (for a site like The Black List) stops abruptly, because a lot of writer's and new writers read his blogs for tips and a heads-up on what's what on all things screenwriting.

Your thoughts and comments?" ~ TheRangeMatters

Again, not my words, they are a direct quote from the named poster.


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bert
Posted: January 20th, 2014, 3:03pm Report to Moderator
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Interesting, and I do not really know enough to pass judgement on the relative merits of his post.

But I do smell an agenda, as the author undercuts his credibility right off the bat:


Quoted from original post
I'm a screenwriter of course, and I've been writing for a long time...Not too long ago, a fellow screenwriter introduced me to The Blacklist...I uploaded an action comedy (which has placed in the semi-finals and finals of Scriptalooza and Nicholl)


So...a long-time author who has placed in Nicholl had never heard of the Black List before?

Something is not passing the sniff test here.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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wonkavite
Posted: January 20th, 2014, 8:36pm Report to Moderator
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Huh.  Assuming the details about the pro is true, *that* is an intriguing litmus test.  I can state that I've personally seen one case of the Blacklist not coming through on a script that should have been well-reviewed.  Though one instance does not a trend make, that - paired with these other first-person stories - are at least interesting.

Re: Bert's observation.  True - but I wonder about the details.  Any long-time writer should *certainly* have heard of the Blacklist.  Though not necessarily the Blacklist's newer reading service.  And - how long did he wait between "hearing of the service" and finally giving it a shot?

Hmmm.
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Dustin
Posted: January 21st, 2014, 2:13am Report to Moderator
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I should update this as there is a response from the man himself:

"Hi everyone, Franklin Leonard here, founder of the Black List.

One thing before I launch into this response. Apparently as a new member of Screenwriting Goldmine, I'm unable to include email addresses and links in my posts, so I'm stuck directing you to the relevant links with specific Google searches.

Or, you can view the thread over at DoneDeal by the same author with the same title, wherein I was able to include multiple links because I've been a regular over there for over a year now, having responded to over 600 questions about the site on multiple gargantuan threads. I encourage you to explore them.

That said, greetings from the Sundance Film Festival, where we just wrapped up a cocktail party hosted by the Black List and Indiegogo in honor of the screenwriters of the Sundance Film Festival and Matthew Hickman, our inaugural Cassian Elwes Independent Screenwriting Fellow (but one person who has benefited tremendously from the site. You can read more about his story by searching "Matthew Hickman" "The Black List" "Cassian Elwes" on Google)

You can also listen to an interview with Cassian (producer of ALL IS LOST, LEE DANIELS' THE BUTLER, and DALLAS BUYERS CLUB and notably, an active member of the site) and Matthew here by simply searching "Matthew Hickman" "Cassian Elwes" "scpr"

Let's get into some of the "issues" that were raised in the OP.

Re: Readers.

I've said before and I'll say again: All of our readers have worked for at least a year as at least a paid first filter (read: NOT interns) for a major, reputable Hollywood company (read: major agencies and management companies, studios, financiers, networks, and production companies.) Almost all of our readers have considerably more experience. Some are currently working at the companies described. All have recent and considerable knowledge about the market for material at the highest and most reputable levels of the business.

Furthermore, their skills as a critical writer and reader are all vetted by me personally based on multiple samples of coverage. We have hired fewer than 15% of those who have applied with at least the minimum level of experience. They are truly the best of who would be reading your script first if you submitted it to any reputable company in the industry.

Re: our industry professional members

We have over 2300 industry professional members, ranging from agency assistants to studio presidents and working actors and directors. Fewer than 10% of those who have applied for membership have been invited to join.

Two rules of thumb we use to decide if an individual is granted membership:

1. Can this individual during the course of their normal business day and work advance an individual project or the career of a professional screenwriter?
2. Does this individual work with a company in good standing with the Writers Guild of America or its local equivalents internationally?

Producer who produces non-signatory projects? Not welcome.
Actor or director whose attachment would not make a project significantly more likely to get produced? Not welcome.

So who are our members?
Executives at every major studio and film financier and at least 50% of the production companies with deals therewith.
At least a dozen agents at each major agency (CAA, WME, UTA, ICM, Paradigm, Gersh, Verve) That's at least 12 per, except Verve which is much smaller, not a dozen in aggregate.
Dozens of assistants at each major agency (Verve assistants, for example, are required to be members and scout the site for their bosses, who have been quite successful signing clients through the site. Richard Cordiner is but one example.)
Independent producers with literally thousands of WGA-signatory credits in aggregate (Cassian Elwes is but one excellent example.)

The OP mentions that he has a writers group with 38+ members. As I said on Done Deal Pro, I'd like to volunteer to attend one of their meetings so that I can personally answer any and all questions that you have about the site and how it runs.

Email me an invitation at any of the addresses on our About page. They'll find their way to me quite quickly, and I will happily accept.

On my Done Deal post, I included a list of quite a few links to articles about Black List success stories (and they are only a small sampling, since at this point, it's not exactly news when a writer finds representation or sells their script via the site.) I encourage you to view them there or to check out our Annual Report on the site.

Lastly, and maybe more importantly, I'd like to remind everyone that we're partnered with both the WGA East and the WGA West. Were the rather absurd allegations made here even remotely true, I'm reasonably certain that both Guilds wouldn't publicly affiliate themselves with us and exploring ways in which we can deepen our relationship in the future.

We're also partnered with the Sundance Institute and Warner Bros pictures. And there are a few announcements coming in the next few months re: partnerships with similar organizations. Again, were the claims made here even remotely true, I'm reasonably sure those partnerships wouldn't exist, nor would they be in such full flower." ~ Franklin Leonard


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FranklinLeonard
Posted: January 21st, 2014, 8:13pm Report to Moderator
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The OP was posted on two other sites (Screenwriters Goldmine and Done Deal Pro) so i'm just going to repost what I posted at Done Deal. I encourage everyone reading this thread to read the full thread at Done Deal as well.

"Hello everyone and greetings from the Sundance Film Festival, where we just wrapped up a cocktail party hosted by the Black List and Indiegogo in honor of the screenwriters of the Sundance Film Festival and Matthew Hickman, our inaugural Cassian Elwes Independent Screenwriting Fellow (but one person who has benefited tremendously from the site. You can read more about this here:

http://www.thewrap.com/black-list-ca...hickman-fellow
http://www.deadline.com/2013/12/cass...g-to-sundance/

And listen to an interview with Cassian (producer of ALL IS LOST, LEE DANIELS' THE BUTLER, and DALLAS BUYERS CLUB and notably, an active member of the site) and Matthew here: http://www.scpr.org/programs/take-tw...k-to-sundance/

Let's get into some of the "issues" that were raised in the OP.

Re: Readers.

I've said before and I'll say again. All of our readers have worked for at least a year as at least a paid first filter (read: NOT interns) for a major, reputable Hollywood company (read: major agencies and management companies, studios, financiers, networks, and production companies.) Almost all of our readers have considerably more experience. Some are currently working at the companies described. All have recent and considerable knowledge about the market for material at the highest and most reputable levels of the business.

Furthermore, their skills as a critical writer and reader are all vetted by me personally based on multiple samples of coverage. We have hired fewer than 15% of those who have applied with at least the minimum level of experience. They are truly the best of who would be reading your script first if you submitted it to any reputable company in the industry.

Re: our industry professional members

We have over 2300 industry professional members, ranging from agency assistants to studio presidents and working actors and directors. Fewer than 10% of those who have applied for membership have been invited to join.

Two rules of thumb we use to decide if an individual is granted membership:

1. Can this individual during the course of their normal business day and work advance an individual project or the career of a professional screenwriter?
2. Does this individual work with a company in good standing with the Writers Guild of America or its local equivalents internationally?

Producer who produces non-signatory projects? Not welcome.
Actor or director whose attachment would not make a project significantly more likely to get produced? Not welcome.

So who are our members?
Executives at every major studio and film financier and at least 50% of the production companies with deals therewith.
At least a dozen agents at each major agency (CAA, WME, UTA, ICM, Paradigm, Gersh, Verve) That's at least 12 per, except Verve which is much smaller, not a dozen in aggregate.
Dozens of assistants at each major agency (Verve assistants, for example, are required to be members and scout the site for their bosses, who have been quite successful signing clients through the site. Richard Cordiner is but one example.)
Independent producers with literally thousands of WGA-signatory credits in aggregate (Cassian Elwes is but one excellent example.)

Finally, the OP mentions that he has a writers group with 38 members. I'd like to volunteer to attend one of your meetings so that I can personally answer any and all questions that you have about the site and how it runs.

Email me an invitation at any of the addresses on our About page. They'll find their way to me quite quickly, and I will happily accept.

In the meantime, here's additional third party confirmation of some of our success stories (there are many more. At this point, it's not exactly news when someone gets signed or sells their script via the site.)

http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column...xclusive-84201
http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/opi...an-a-month.php
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column...xclusive-96951
http://www.deadline.com/2013/12/warn...sal-assistant/
http://www.thewrap.com/black-list-ca...hickman-fellow
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column...iscovery-93341
http://thebitterscriptreader.blogspo...e-writers.html
http://www.deadline.com/2013/07/davi...gale-bn-films/

There's also EdFury's Black List experiment recap:
http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...ad.php?t=74467

And our Annual Report: http://blcklst.com/2013-annual-report"
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FranklinLeonard
Posted: January 21st, 2014, 8:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dustin


There's more, yet again from somebody in the industry:

"This has become an issue of late. So much so that at a recent WGA affair Franklin was cornered by a group of some pretty high-powered writers in the industry and confronted with the many complaints. One of the writers (very well known) apparently posted a script on the site using a pen name and had the exact results the OP here did. Needless to say, the site is going to change. When, I have no idea. But as of the other day this stuff is still going on. The income to the site though, because of this type of word of mouth, has dropped exponentially. So there's that." ~ craktactor


This post (also from Screenwriting Goldmine) was considered so baseless that it has already been removed from Goldmine even prior to my raising any issues.

Let me state it as plainly as possible:

This never happened. The author of the post (since deleted) made it up out of whole cloth.

The Black List remains proudly partnered with both the WGA East and West. We have no plans to change the site except to further expand our mission to elevate the status of screenwriting generally and exceptional screenwriting specifically and to create opportunities for screenwriters that didn't previously exist by creating a more efficient marketplace for material.
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_ghostwriters
Posted: January 21st, 2014, 10:36pm Report to Moderator
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I have no dog in this fight, but there's two-sides to every story.  It's good to hear the other.  For the most part I've only read positive things about the site.  So thanks for clearing things up Mr. Leonard.

Ghostie


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Dustin
Posted: January 22nd, 2014, 2:35am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from FranklinLeonard


This post (also from Screenwriting Goldmine) was considered so baseless that it has already been removed from Goldmine even prior to my raising any issues.

Let me state it as plainly as possible:

This never happened. The author of the post (since deleted) made it up out of whole cloth.



I have deleted the offending post. I have noted that it was deleted by the original author (over at the Goldmine) for being hearsay. Apologies.


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marnieml
Posted: January 22nd, 2014, 7:32am Report to Moderator
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There's a current thread on Movie Poet where several members have posted, and are discussing reviews they received on BL. Consensus: more positive than negative.


http://www.moviepoet.com/reply.aspx?thread=3823&forum=1


  
“If someone is trying to bring you down, it just means you are above them."
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Felipe
Posted: January 23rd, 2014, 7:27pm Report to Moderator
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A good friend of mine posted a few scripts for review at the beginning of last year. He was on the official Black List this past December. I'm not saying he didn't get a bad manager before he landed managers at management360 and agents at CAA, but I'm saying that he landed managers at management 360 and agents at CAA and ended up on the list for the years most liked scripts. Just sayin'. Even great screenwriters have subpar scripts so being a good writer does not automatically get you great ratings. As mentioned above, when there are discrepancies, they seem to offer solutions.

I work for a very well-known production company in LA and I signed up for access to their database and was denied. This isn't a complaint, but rather proof that they don't just hand out memberships to anyone. Not even when said "anyone" has leverage in a big company. They want nothing but the top and in some cases, assistants to high-profile execs.

The site is definitely not perfect, but it's trying to do a good thing. I do wish their readers were paid more than 25 per script, though. It's really small pay for so much work, but I guess their coverage isn't as in-depth as others.

Though I guess it would be nice to be able to supplement my pay by reading for the black list since I already read all day anyway.

Feel free to ask me questions about my friend and his experience. The site is not the only reason he got as far as he did, bt it certainly helped.


'Artist' is not a term you should use to refer to yourself. Let others, and your work, do it for you.
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J.S.
Posted: January 23rd, 2014, 7:33pm Report to Moderator
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Good work to your friend. What script was it?
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bert
Posted: January 24th, 2014, 11:18am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Felipe

I work for a very well-known production company in LA and I signed up for access to their database and was denied. This isn't a complaint, but rather proof that they don't just hand out memberships to anyone.


I tried to sign up, too.  Told them I worked for Don Boose.

Bastards never got back to me...


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Ledbetter
Posted: January 24th, 2014, 8:45pm Report to Moderator
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Franklin had the balls to come here and give his side. That means a lot about how much he believes in his business.

I'm in!

I just created an account and posted my script.

Shawn.....><
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Don
Posted: January 25th, 2014, 12:27am Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Quoted from bert


I tried to sign up, too.  Told them I worked for Don Boose.

Bastards never got back to me...


Oh, Bert! Oh, Bert!

You hitched your thingamajig to the wrong horse.

Sad.  Really.  But then again, you do have a crappy mug to show for it.

- Don



Visit SimplyScripts.com for what is new on the site.


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Dustin
Posted: January 25th, 2014, 2:48am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Ledbetter
Franklin had the balls to come here and give his side. That means a lot about how much he believes in his business.

I'm in!

I just created an account and posted my script.

Shawn.....><


Yeah, he convinced me too. It's also made me wonder just how many more this free advert has lured in.

Forever cynical.


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