Print Topic

SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board  /  Contests - Screenwriting and Filmmaking  /  American Zoetrope Screenplay Comp.
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 15th, 2018, 3:58pm
It's a social justice competition.

It's new screenplay competition winners:


Quoted Text

Grand Prize Winner
"Caroline's Wedding"
by Easmanie Michel, France-Luce Benson, and Darcy Miller (New York, NY)
Finalists
"Anh Sang"
by Barry Brennessel (Silver Spring, MD)
"Ascension (Pilot)"
by Jordan Trippeer (Los Angeles, CA)
"Aurora Falls (Pilot)"
by Kadyn Michaels (Los Angeles, CA)
"Hope Street"
by Ali Zahiri, Amisha Patel (Santa Monica, CA)
"Landfill"
by Heidi Scott (Hyattsville, MD)
"Other People"
by Meedo Taha (Beirut, Lebanon)
"Post No Bills"
by Robin Hays (North Vancouver, Canada)
"The Field"
by Sally Fowler (Brooklyn, NY)
"The Violinist's Daughter"
by Shelly Drancik (Chicago, IL)


I wouldn't waste your money on entering if you're not female, not writing stories about females, or if you have a name that doesn't sound "diverse" to Hillary donors (1+ if you enter and have a name like the people from countries she's bombed or armed terrorists have). I think your stories must be of the kind a gender studies lecturer would approve of.

If you're serious, take your work and your money to people who are serious as you are.

I don't need this shit.

Posted by: Warren, February 15th, 2018, 5:14pm; Reply: 1
So you paid to enter this, didn’t place, and it's not because your screenplay was either bad or not as good as the finalists it’s because all the people who won were either female or had a certain sounding name... interesting ha-ha.
Posted by: AnthonyCawood, February 15th, 2018, 5:49pm; Reply: 2
Put your screenplay up on here and get some free feedback, might have a better chance next time...

And you could always try the Coppola Shorts comp instead, 80% of winners in that were men!
Posted by: Dustin, February 16th, 2018, 3:20am; Reply: 3
He's not wrong... as white males we stand less chance than weaker writers that are female or non-white.
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 16th, 2018, 3:47am; Reply: 4

Quoted from Warren
So you paid to enter this, didn’t place, and it's not because your screenplay was either bad or not as good as the finalists it’s because all the people who won were either female or had a certain sounding name... interesting ha-ha.


It doesn't feel like rejection, it feels like being disrespected, and slapped in the face while having my money taken away in the name of Francis Ford Coppola.

I wonder if Sofia chose the winners.. because they all sound as boring and aimlessly pretentious as her movies.

And yeah, I know I'm good.. and I do feel like I deserve better than what I got.
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 16th, 2018, 3:52am; Reply: 5

Quoted from AnthonyCawood
Put your screenplay up on here and get some free feedback, might have a better chance next time...

And you could always try the Coppola Shorts comp instead, 80% of winners in that were men!


I'm not going anywhere near a Coppola, or anything they do, ever again.

It's more than gender.. it's an entire ideology that is incredibly restrictive of creative endeavors they are pushing. I have to do what I do.

But you're right. I'll submit my Zoetrope entry unchanged since last year in this site.. and people can judge for themselves.

Posted by: TheWarddd, February 16th, 2018, 3:54am; Reply: 6

Quoted from Dustin
He's not wrong... as white males we stand less chance than weaker writers that are female or non-white.


I"m not white. I'm Indigenous Australia, various European and even have Afghani stock in my blood.

But my name sounds WASP-y  and apparently thats gonna hurt me around certain pretentious fake-liberal types.
Posted by: Dustin, February 16th, 2018, 4:27am; Reply: 7

Quoted from TheWarddd


I"m not white. I'm Indigenous Australia, various European and even have Afghani stock in my blood.

But my name sounds WASP-y  and apparently thats gonna hurt me around certain pretentious fake-liberal types.


Then write under a pseudonym. You sound pretty 'diverse' to me which is apparently what they're looking for. Maybe your voice just isn't 'fresh enough'? I think that counts too.

What are you writing about? Seems to me that a film filled with diversity is likely to gain funding - even if it's shit. Maybe try writing that?
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 16th, 2018, 4:44am; Reply: 8

Quoted from Dustin


Then write under a pseudonym. You sound pretty 'diverse' to me which is apparently what they're looking for. Maybe your voice just isn't 'fresh enough'? I think that counts too.

What are you writing about? Seems to me that a film filled with diversity is likely to gain funding - even if it's shit. Maybe try writing that?


God, no. There's no way I'm contaminating my process by writing trash on purpose.

I try hard, I get better, I try harder, I get even better.. on and on this goes.

I've already resubmitted my screenplay (with improvements, but still the Zoetrope entry) on this site. So when it appears you can see for yourself if I'm full of myself, or if Zoetrope has gone nuts on the dying fumes of Francis Ford's reputation.

Burn, by Eric Ward.

I'll try stick around and give input to others as well. It's only fair.
Posted by: Warren, February 16th, 2018, 7:33am; Reply: 9
Can't wait to read this script, you really have tickets on yourself.

You sound like a sore loser. Have you read any of those "pretentious" scripts or are you just disrespecting the writers because you didn't place?

I'm looking forward to seeing how you cope with the reviews and criticism on this site, I think you might be one of those people who will defend their script to the death no matter what anyone says.
Posted by: MarkRenshaw, February 16th, 2018, 9:53am; Reply: 10
Try not to be too hard on yourself, a lot of these competitions are like lotteries with so many entries, many good scripts can get ignored. And yes, the judges will have their biases and preferences - they are human.

I'd suggest trying to be happy for the winners. Remember, these guys may have tried just as hard as you and had many rejections before getting a break. Resentment is like a form of self-harm.  

Best of luck with Burn. I hope you do better in other competitions.

-Mark
Posted by: PrussianMosby, February 16th, 2018, 3:17pm; Reply: 11
Actually, I stand behind him. No screenwriter should pay… blah, is my thing on and on…

At the moment I ask myself if people would even like my stuff.

It's that complicated so that I don't write anymore. I just see the chaos and shake my head.
Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, February 16th, 2018, 3:39pm; Reply: 12
White boys be rattled.
Posted by: PrussianMosby, February 16th, 2018, 3:47pm; Reply: 13
@ Scar, not sure what you mean : Rattled?
Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, February 16th, 2018, 3:50pm; Reply: 14
Shook, brother. Shook.

Scared.

Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, February 16th, 2018, 4:05pm; Reply: 15

Quoted from PrussianMosby
Actually, I stand behind him. No screenwriter should pay… blah, is my thing on and on…

At the moment I ask myself if people would even like my stuff.

It's that complicated so that I don't write anymore. I just see the chaos and shake my head.


If you speak from the heart, someone will like it.
Posted by: eldave1, February 16th, 2018, 6:41pm; Reply: 16
My thoughts:

1. Your may be right. You may be wrong about Zeotrope - who knows.

2. Regardless of whether you are right or wrong about Zeotrope, it has no bearing on the quality of your script. It could be great - it could be crap.



Posted by: PrussianMosby, February 17th, 2018, 12:12am; Reply: 17
@ scar

Yeah, the meaning of the word I understand for sure. I don't understand how you use the language. Is it sarcastic or do you make an intellectual statement…
Posted by: Dustin, February 17th, 2018, 3:15am; Reply: 18

Quoted from PrussianMosby

Is it sarcastic or do you make an intellectual statement…


I'd say it's a bit of both.

I'm not averse to diversity, I love it. What I don't like though is unfairness. If 10 scripts are put in front of you, you should pick the best one and not the one you feel you should pick to help make society - mostly overly liberal white men - feel better about itself. You go in blind. Who the writer is shouldn't matter at all.

It's one of the reasons I stopped entering. The competitions are clearly not looking for white men so we should all save our money.
Posted by: PrussianMosby, February 17th, 2018, 3:47am; Reply: 19
I hear. Where I live it's completely not in fashion to discuss this white male and back and so on… Perhaps the train has just arrived here, and I just didn't notice.

The agents and producers I talk to are 95 % female. Sometimes I ask myself if that is normal… But they're fine, I believe. However, the film industry became an insane melting pot of making/producing a position and keep it, if you know what I mean.  Politicized.

To keep my stereotype and play my role: Let's talk about surrogate motherhood and how we position ourselves there, Dustin ;-) How do we look good there

You know that I actually speak up for women in deciding positions, f.i. no other than the Liberian woman would have solved that situation in West Africa. I just fear the society breads a kind of women that is an old white man, throwing some weapons and yelling as is the case today, just in another avatar. But it's what is going to happen… no illusions.
Posted by: Anon, February 17th, 2018, 1:31pm; Reply: 20
Diversity issues aside - this thread has got me wondering about the script quality. If it blows - Eric's getting burned. And if it's good - get a decent read. It's win win.

Bring on BURN by Eric Ward!
Posted by: eldave1, February 17th, 2018, 8:47pm; Reply: 21

Quoted from Anon
Diversity issues aside - this thread has got me wondering about the script quality. If it blows - Eric's getting burned. And if it's good - get a decent read. It's win win.

Bring on BURN by Eric Ward!


My gut tells me the latter.

The dude comes in railing on liberals (which I am one) and women (which I am not). But I do know that your name does not go on the script in most screenplay competitions as they want the judges reading blind to the gender/name of the writer. Now, the Zeotrope mission does include:

We seek original voices whose work will contribute to the quality, diversity, and longevity of contemporary cinema."

So, yeah - maybe this particular contest in the end when Francis picks the winner is slanted towards diversity - but it says it right up front - so not sure why the complaint?

In terms of women for 2017:

Of the top 100 grossing films, women represented:

8% of directors
10% of writers
2% of cinematographers
24% of producers
14% of editors

Not exactly an avalanche of hormones killing the industry. Add to that of the top 100 films of 2016 females comprised only 29% of protagonists.  So I am a bit lost as too the overwhelming advantage this fellow thinks females have in the industry. Are there some programs specifically designed to benefit females and minority writers - sure. primarily based on the data above. Our there similar programs for white males? - no.   One can argue if that is fair or not, but not sure how one builds a case in terms of gender/ethnicity bias in contests when the judges don't see the writer's name in the first place.

In terms of a liberal bias - yeah, it ain't too difficult to conclude that Hollywood leans left. You can whine about that or write stories that you think are marketable within that paradigm.

Long winded way of saying it sounded like sour grapes to me.  But that's just my ear.
Posted by: AnthonyCawood, February 18th, 2018, 3:45am; Reply: 22
Has he posted his screenplay yet?

Personally. as a white middle-aged Brit, I hit no diversity targets whatsoever, I'm not yet even old enough to be considered a senior.

So that's it, I'm giving in, stopping writing, forced out of the industry by those blessed by birth with a difference...

Oh, hang on, I've sold stuff, optioned features, had stuff made... not the big break yet but definite progress... all without ever experiencing any specific bias.

Actually, I think I'll just go back to writing scripts and concentrate on making them good.
Posted by: Dustin, February 18th, 2018, 3:49am; Reply: 23

Quoted from eldave1


We seek original voices whose work will contribute to the quality, diversity, and longevity of contemporary cinema."

So, yeah - maybe this particular contest in the end when Francis picks the winner is slanted towards diversity - but it says it right up front - so not sure why the complaint?


If it said right up front that they were only looking for white males then this wouldn't be complaint-worthy?

The competition would be declared racist, prejudiced, homophobic, etc, etc. I would complain too.
Posted by: Dustin, February 18th, 2018, 3:53am; Reply: 24
I was going to write something for the Green Door comp run here in the UK by Idris Alba but then I realised they weren't looking for me... because of the colour of my skin and my sex.

That's racist and prejudiced toward white men. Simple as that... the crazy thing is they don't even have to do much to hide it because most white men agree that it's fine.
Posted by: Angry Bear, February 18th, 2018, 9:14am; Reply: 25

Quoted from AnthonyCawood


Oh, hang on, I've sold stuff, optioned features, had stuff made... not the big break yet but definite progress... all without ever experiencing any specific bias.

Actually, I think I'll just go back to writing scripts and concentrate on making them good.


I usually don't bother with contests at all although I did enter one this year just for the hell of it. Other than contests that ask specifically for a certain type of writer, I believe that Robert McKee is right when he says "Everyone in Hollywood is looking for a GREAT story". I believe that 100%. Hollywood would never turn down a GREAT story because it's written by a white male.

Now, the hard part is writing a GREAT script. I know I can't. I can write so so scripts that indie filmmakers might consider. Most writers believe their scripts are gold and if only they could get a chance to show the right people...
Posted by: eldave1, February 18th, 2018, 11:54am; Reply: 26

Quoted from Dustin


If it said right up front that they were only looking for white males then this wouldn't be complaint-worthy?

The competition would be declared racist, prejudiced, homophobic, etc, etc. I would complain too.


Yes, it would be (although probably not declared homophobic).  

My real problem is with the specific complaint with his specific script. To complain that you were filtered out somehow because you did not meet the parameters of those inviting participation is a useless exercise. By way of example, I had script that neatly met the parameters of what a Canadian Production company stated they were looking for story and budget wise - but - the requirement was I had to be Canadian. Can't imagine submitting and then crying about my "unfair" rejection because I was not Canadian. Anyway - strike one.

Strike two - there is no evidence that his script did not progress in the contest for the reason he stated. What - did it just smash the other contest circuits? Is it on the Blacklist 100? Or - maybe - just maybe - it wasn't as good as the others.

Long winded way of saying that I could respect a debate on the merits of race/gender based programs for writers (or any other industry for that matter). What I don't care for as whether his specific script somehow got black balled for that reason. So...

On to the debate:

Personally, even as a card carrying left winger, I think the economic status one is born and raised in as a far more meaningful indicator of barriers than race or gender. e.g., I see no reason to give preference to a Asian female whose parents sent her to Harvard. If you're going to have preferences, I would rather give it to the child raised in poverty, regardless of race.

I think that it is easy to see from the stats that females are underrepresented. What isn't answered (or perhaps even known) is the why. Zeotrope is trying to address that under representation. I don't agree with their method, but I understand the motive.  

Posted by: Dustin, February 18th, 2018, 12:37pm; Reply: 27
He may have a point. As the comp are looking for specific people it stands to reason that the readers would have been aware of this. So any 'white' sounding male names may have been discarded with barely a read.

If they want to do things like this then be more transparent and stop white males from entering altogether. They won't do that because they would not only be accused of blatant prejudice but also lose lots of revenue. They're quite happy to take our money even though we don't have any chance of winning.
Posted by: RJP, February 18th, 2018, 2:51pm; Reply: 28
Hey, first ever post here. I'm new :p

Interesting debate going on. The way that I've come to understand it is that Hollywood needs diversity in voices. So even though the majority of aspiring screenwriters are white men, they still need just as many women and minorities as writers. It wouldn't make sense to have African-American programs about life on the street that's written by white guys.

So in my eyes complaining about it is sort of like a AAA hockey player that was never good enough to make the pros, but spends his days complaining about how much better he is than players from the olympic women's team.

Sometimes however, contests go too far. For instance, the Academy Nicholl admits in their FAQ that they receive 70% of their submissions from Men and 30% from women. And yet the last 2 years have awarded only 1 of the 5 fellowship to a man. If that trend continues, I can't help but think it's maybe a little sexist.

Anyways, one last thing: you don't need this guy to post his script for you because you can read it right now. Just search "Burn" in the little search bar at the top of SS. Scroll down a bit and you'll find it.

My opinion: The script needs a lot of work. But I'd take it easy on him...he's still licking his wounds.
Posted by: AnthonyCawood, February 18th, 2018, 2:57pm; Reply: 29
The diversity policy of this comp isn't why his script didn't place, that's evident after less than a page.
Posted by: Dustin, February 18th, 2018, 2:57pm; Reply: 30

Quoted from RJP

It wouldn't make sense to have African-American programs about life on the street that's written by white guys.


Why not?
Posted by: RJP, February 18th, 2018, 3:12pm; Reply: 31
Well technically they could. I suppose there's nothing stopping a bunch of white dudes from penning the next Boyz in the Hood.

EXT. GHETTO - NIGHT

Three spunk lads from the mean-streets hang at the corner. We can tell from the dark hoods draped over their Lakers baseball caps that they're up to some mischief.

                                     ICE CUBE
                      Hey homeboy, give me a hit of that good stuff.
                      You feel me, hot-diggity-dog-digitty?
Posted by: StevenClark, February 18th, 2018, 3:21pm; Reply: 32

Quoted from RJP
Well technically they could. I suppose there's nothing stopping a bunch of white dudes from penning the next Boyz in the Hood.

EXT. GHETTO - NIGHT

Three spunk lads from the mean-streets hang at the corner. We can tell from the dark hoods draped over their Lakers baseball caps that they're up to some mischief.

                                     ICE CUBE
                      Hey homeboy, give me a hit of that good stuff.
                      You feel me, hot-diggity-dog-digitty?


AHH! You used the word “we!”

Posted by: Heretic, February 18th, 2018, 3:24pm; Reply: 33
Holy cow, an indie studio's screenplay contest has a preference towards stories for/about certain demographics of people? Truly, the white male writer is doomed.

Never mind that the WGA is 67% male, the earnings gap between male and female feature writers is increasing (women earned 78 cents on the dollar in 2012, 68 cents on the dollar in 2014), the earnings gap between white and minority feature writers is increasing (minorities earned 76 cents on the dollar in 2012, 75 cents on the dollar in 2014), and that the percentage of women screenwriters on the top 500 films of 2016 (13%) is the same as it was in 1998, etc., etc., blah blah.
Posted by: Warren, February 18th, 2018, 3:27pm; Reply: 34

Quoted from AnthonyCawood
The diversity policy of this comp isn't why his script didn't place, that's evident after less than a page.


Is the script up? I can't seem to find it. Or did he take it down already?
Posted by: AnthonyCawood, February 18th, 2018, 3:32pm; Reply: 35
Posted by: Warren, February 18th, 2018, 3:37pm; Reply: 36
Thanks Anthony.
Posted by: Dustin, February 18th, 2018, 3:44pm; Reply: 37

Quoted from RJP
Well technically they could. I suppose there's nothing stopping a bunch of white dudes from penning the next Boyz in the Hood.

EXT. GHETTO - NIGHT

Three spunk lads from the mean-streets hang at the corner. We can tell from the dark hoods draped over their Lakers baseball caps that they're up to some mischief.

                                     ICE CUBE
                      Hey homeboy, give me a hit of that good stuff.
                      You feel me, hot-diggity-dog-digitty?


Yeah because that's how http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0075696/ penned Straight Outta Compton.

I'm from one of the most multicultural cities on the planet. I have black and Asian family members and I can write a screenplay filled entirely with black and Asian characters if I want to. I also grew up 'on the street' with all the experiences that come with it. At 13-years-old, I was hanging with a small gang of 8 Muslims where we used to steal car stereos to pay for our weed. I'm not going to get into the shit I did after that, but I know for certain that I'm not a hot-diggity anything.

That's a very stereotypical view of white males. You must be basing this off yourself? You couldn't write a film like that, so, obviously, no white male could?

You're wrong.
Posted by: Dustin, February 18th, 2018, 3:50pm; Reply: 38

Quoted from Heretic
Holy cow, an indie studio's screenplay contest has a preference towards stories for/about certain demographics of people? Truly, the white male writer is doomed.

Never mind that the WGA is 67% male, the earnings gap between male and female feature writers is increasing (women earned 78 cents on the dollar in 2012, 68 cents on the dollar in 2014), the earnings gap between white and minority feature writers is increasing (minorities earned 76 cents on the dollar in 2012, 75 cents on the dollar in 2014), and that the percentage of women screenwriters on the top 500 films of 2016 (13%) is the same as it was in 1998, etc., etc., blah blah.


Thanks for all these figures. However, one key component is missing. How many professional female writers are there and how many pro male writers are there?

Then we need to go deeper as the argument that not as many women are employed by design is used. So, we need to look at how many amateur writers there are of each demographic trying to break in.

If we use this site as an example, it seems dominated by white males, which would explain they dominating the pro field too.

Posted by: Warren, February 18th, 2018, 3:59pm; Reply: 39
So I gave the first 10 a read, wanted to stop after the first page, but gave it the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry but if you think this is good you are very mistaken. I'm not going to give it a full review because I think that would be useless.

The quote was, "And yeah, I know I'm good". Sorry but you have a long way to go.

I agree with Anthony, this has absolutely nothing to do with diversity.
Posted by: RJP, February 18th, 2018, 4:11pm; Reply: 40

Quoted from StevenClark


AHH! You used the word “we!”



Ha ha ha yeah! I actually break a lot of rules with my actual scripts too! My last script starts with a flashback, has a dozen or so "we see" and "we hear". Tons of V.O. I've entered it in a few contests...I'm probably doomed lol.
Posted by: RJP, February 18th, 2018, 4:32pm; Reply: 41

Quoted from Dustin


Yeah because that's how http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0075696/ penned Straight Outta Compton.

I'm from one of the most multicultural cities on the planet. I have black and Asian family members and I can write a screenplay filled entirely with black and Asian characters if I want to. I also grew up 'on the street' with all the experiences that come with it. At 13-years-old, I was hanging with a small gang of 8 Muslims where we used to steal car stereos to pay for our weed. I'm not going to get into the shit I did after that, but I know for certain that I'm not a hot-diggity anything.

That's a very stereotypical view of white males. You must be basing this off yourself? You couldn't write a film like that, so, obviously, no white male could?

You're wrong.


Yeah, I was basing this on myself lol. I'm actually super white. I was just having a bit of fun. Obviously white people can still write stories about minorities. There was a good script in this years Nicholl called "Jellyfish Summer". Anyways, it was written by a white girl and it's about an African American family.

I think your story is a perfect example of what I was trying to say though. You have these experiences in your life that I can never understand. You could write about the streets and having a culturally diverse family. And I could write about the same thing, but it wouldn't be as authentic. I would be writing "what I think it's like".

So in a perfect world race, colour, and gender wouldn't matter. It would just be two hands on a keyboard. And the best scripts would win regardless. But the worlds not perfect. There's a lot of racism and segregation. Gay kids have to grow up getting bullied in school. They want to watch movies and TV that portray "their story" authentically.

If someone told you " Dustin, you can't write about growing up in the hood", they'd be wrong. Because you lived it. For the same reason Eminem has cred but Vanilla Ice doesn't.

Also, the contest-people feel it's important to encourage and nurture writers from those minorities. For reasons I've stated. That's why the 5 nicholl recipients are your typical Power Rangers cast lol.

Might seem unfair to you, but I can see both sides of the argument.
Posted by: Anon, February 18th, 2018, 5:30pm; Reply: 42
Where is the script posted? Anyhow followed Anthony's link and can confirm - this guy could be a disabled minority on the autistic spectrum that identifies as female and still the script would not have advanced.

But i'm guessing he's young. A lot more living and a LOT more writing and who knows.
Posted by: PrussianMosby, February 18th, 2018, 6:37pm; Reply: 43
Aaah, I provoked here a bit with my comments,,, comes to perspective. I'm not sure how one can talk about such topic in that compressed form that text messaging is, or whatever this is called.

I see people are hungry for that debate. And for me, it's what I expect from this board. Politicians and celebrities won't handle that stuff.

Btw: imo to burn his script now and here isn't the best behavior. The screenplay deserves its own thread
Posted by: Warren, February 18th, 2018, 6:58pm; Reply: 44

Quoted from PrussianMosby


Btw: imo to burn his script now and here isn't the best behavior. The screenplay deserves its own thread


The script does have its own thread. The original post is directly related to the script and its quality, so posting on its quality in this thread makes sense.
Posted by: eldave1, February 18th, 2018, 9:21pm; Reply: 45

Quoted from Dustin
He may have a point. As the comp are looking for specific people it stands to reason that the readers would have been aware of this. So any 'white' sounding male names may have been discarded with barely a read.

If they want to do things like this then be more transparent and stop white males from entering altogether. They won't do that because they would not only be accused of blatant prejudice but also lose lots of revenue. They're quite happy to take our money even though we don't have any chance of winning.


1. At least before Copolla gets involved it's a blind read - no name on scripts. After that (at the awards stage) - who knows.

2. Don't disagree with your second point - it could be clearer and probably isn't for revenue reasons.

My issue continues to be - if one wants to debate the merits of diversity based competitions - okay - makes sense. My problem with this guy was he seemed to be saying it's what's standing between him and his Oscar because his script was soooooo good.
Posted by: eldave1, February 18th, 2018, 9:24pm; Reply: 46

Quoted from AnthonyCawood
The diversity policy of this comp isn't why his script didn't place, that's evident after less than a page.


Just checked it out - Zeotrope isn't this dude's problem.
Posted by: Dustin, February 19th, 2018, 3:23am; Reply: 47
I did take a look at the script... and, no, he definitely didn't lose because his name sounds white. However, as was also pointed out, his writing strikes me as being from somebody young, so I don't want to put it down too much. I was there once and coming out of education he's probably been told his shit don't stink by countless teachers that recognise his talent. In terms of screenwriting though he definitely has stuff to learn and experiences to gain.

The anonymous part does put a dampener on my argument, however, it still stands. This diversity and fairness crap is everywhere and seems designed to only make it 'fair' for everybody that isn't a white male.
Posted by: Dustin, February 19th, 2018, 3:59am; Reply: 48
If 80% of screenwriters trying to break in are men and only 67% are employed as pros, there's definitely something wrong with that.... and it isn't that we need more females.
Posted by: Heretic, February 19th, 2018, 9:12am; Reply: 49

Quoted from Dustin
Thanks for all these figures. However, one key component is missing. How many professional female writers are there and how many pro male writers are there?

Then we need to go deeper as the argument that not as many women are employed by design is used. So, we need to look at how many amateur writers there are of each demographic trying to break in.


The WGA West has numbers for 2014 and 2016.

2014:

Percentage of total members that are male: 75.8% (percent of total employed: 75.3%)
Percentage of total members that are female: 24.2% (percent of total employed: 24.7%)

2014:

Percentage of total members that are male: 75.1% (percent of total employed: 73.7%)
Percentage of total members that are female: 24.9% (percent of total employed: 26.3%)
Posted by: Colkurtz8, February 19th, 2018, 9:47am; Reply: 50

Quoted from Heretic
The WGA West has numbers for 2014 and 2016.

2014:

Percentage of total members that are male: 75.8% (percent of total employed: 75.3%)
Percentage of total members that are female: 24.2% (percent of total employed: 24.7%)

2014:

Percentage of total members that are male: 75.1% (percent of total employed: 73.7%)
Percentage of total members that are female: 24.9% (percent of total employed: 26.3%)


- Damning statistics for sure but, as Dustin said, I wonder if we went back a step in the process and tallied up the gender ratios of amateur writers trying to become pros what would that tell us. Take this site for example. Impossible to carry out maybe but just having the WGA figures doesn't tell the whole story either. Is there are disparity to begin with? Do males try their hand a screenwriting more than females? If so, why? Is it because females are put off before they even start because of stats like those above?
Posted by: Dustin, February 19th, 2018, 10:49am; Reply: 51

Quoted from Colkurtz8


- Damning statistics for sure but, as Dustin said, I wonder if we went back a step in the process and tallied up the gender ratios of amateur writers trying to become pros what would that tell us. Take this site for example. Impossible to carry out maybe but just having the WGA figures doesn't tell the whole story either. Is there are disparity to begin with? Do males try their hand a screenwriting more than females? If so, why? Is it because females are put off before they even start because of stats like those above?


I've put some thought into this already and I believe it's down to societal evolution. Women have it harder than others, blacks, gays, anyone you care to mention... women have, throughout history, suffered more. This is because they are evolving from a natural position of inferiority, of veritable enslavement to men. Women have been told that they're not good enough for as long we've had language.

Chess is a fine example. Women are only just proving that they can compete with men... not because they couldn't before but because they didn't believe in their ability to. Even today there are separate sections for male and female chess. Females are considered GM level some 200 elo points behind men. Considering there aren't any physical attributes involved and it is all mind and often just memory, this in itself creates a psychological inequality. Women are told, by this action, that they are not as good as men.

But they are... and this was proven by the Polgar sisters, whose father deliberately chose chess in an effort to prove that anything can be learned, that there isn't any such thing as natural ability. He also inadvertently showed that women can be just as good at chess as men. Judit managed as high as number 8 in the world. Yet still there is this barrier. The reason more women aren't like Judit (and a few others) is that they are told they can't be.

As these illusions are dispelled, more women will recognise their ability, and as more try to become screenwriters, more of them will inevitably become pros. I don't think there is anything wrong with the old system and it was running along smoothly. Trying to force things by possibly putting weaker writers in place just to fit a statistic is just another lie.
Posted by: eldave1, February 19th, 2018, 10:58am; Reply: 52

Quoted from Dustin


I've put some thought into this already and I believe it's down to societal evolution. Women have it harder than others, blacks, gays, anyone you care to mention... women have, throughout history, suffered more. This is because they are evolving from a natural position of inferiority, of veritable enslavement to men. Women have been told that they're not good enough for as long we've had language.

Chess is a fine example. Women are only just proving that they can compete with men... not because they couldn't before but because they didn't believe in their ability to. Even today there are separate sections for male and female chess. Females are considered GM level some 200 elo points behind men. Considering there aren't any physical attributes involved and it is all mind and often just memory, this in itself creates a psychological inequality. Women are told, by this action, that they are not as good as men.

But they are... and this was proven by the Polgar sisters, whose father deliberately chose chess in an effort to prove that anything can be learned, that there isn't any such thing as natural ability. He also inadvertently showed that women can be just as good at chess as men. Judit managed as high as number 8 in the world. Yet still there is this barrier. The reason more women aren't like Judit (and a few others) is that they are told they can't be.

As these illusions are dispelled, more women will recognise their ability, and as more try to become screenwriters, more of them will inevitably become pros. I don't think there is anything wrong with the old system and it was running along smoothly. Trying to force things by possibly putting weaker writers in place just to fit a statistic is just another lie.


The chess example is a compelling one. Nurses vs. Doctors as a similar one. Women always had an interest in medicine as evidenced by the fact that they comprised 95% of the nursing positions for decades while the inverse was true to Doctors. Some of this certainly had it's genesis in them being taught/cultured that Doctors were for men, nurses for women. That is changing of course.

For me, whether we are talking gender or economic status, the key has been removing barriers to entry. I am for it. Like you I am not a fan of preferences once the barriers have been removed. A ridiculous example to illustrate the point - if there is a gate at a pool that keeps women of certain ethnic groups out, I want the gate removed. If they are not aware that the pool exists,  I want them informed otherwise. If they are told there is something about their skin color or gender that keeps them from floating, I want them to be educated otherwise.

Once they're in the pool - I don't want to tell them their swimming when they're in fact drowning.  
Posted by: PrussianMosby, February 19th, 2018, 5:41pm; Reply: 53
It is far more complex I believe, in many areas. F.i. Don't forget, women are also established as the attractive gender for many centuries, probably more. How does it play into this debate, for the future: Will it be seen as a superficial downgrading? Does it lead to a change, when thinking of woman as attractive, what society does call a "gentleman" regarding male, today, into seeing those men as chauvinists then? This stuff is old, I know, but I see wide room for dangerous ideologues there who might position themselves within these topics and build people through politics, just to follow their own interests in case of gaining power. In the end imo it's about finding the balance between anarchism and dictate, as hard as it sounds.
Posted by: MarkRenshaw, February 20th, 2018, 3:30am; Reply: 54
When I realize I have all this white male privilege and I'm still not a successful, famous writer...I feel like even more of a failure.
Posted by: Heretic, February 20th, 2018, 10:54am; Reply: 55

Quoted from Colkurtz8
Damning statistics for sure but, as Dustin said, I wonder if we went back a step in the process and tallied up the gender ratios of amateur writers trying to become pros what would that tell us.


I agree, but I'm not sure how one would go about finding those numbers -- a poll of some sort?

I think the basic point is pretty clear, though. Women make up a third of the WGAW, and while they're marginally overrepresented in employment, they make 68 cents on the dollar compared to men, which presumably means that the bigger/more expensive (and therefore more widely distributed/more prestigious) a project is, the less likely it is to hire a female writer. Which, again, seems accurate -- women wrote 13% of the top 500 films in 2016, the same as in 1998. So -- membership/employment getting slightly higher, but still barely over a third; relative pay decreased since 2014; no change since 1998 in the small likelihood of being involved in a big project. I don't think that sounds like the good side of the deal.


Quoted from Dustin
Trying to force things by possibly putting weaker writers in place just to fit a statistic is just another lie.


This is a reasonable argument against quotas in many other parts of society, but I don't see what it has to do with screenwriting, where objective value is hard to assess (and perhaps irrelevant to boot). Certainly there's no reason to assume that any of the scripts that won this Zoetrope contest, for instance, are weaker than the competition. Unless you think Mr. Ward's script is so good that it must have been passed over by slimy Hillary donors or whatever.
Posted by: Dustin, February 20th, 2018, 11:57am; Reply: 56

Quoted from Heretic


I agree, but I'm not sure how one would go about finding those numbers -- a poll of some sort?

I think the basic point is pretty clear, though. Women make up a third of the WGAW, and while they're marginally overrepresented in employment, they make 68 cents on the dollar compared to men, which presumably means that the bigger/more expensive (and therefore more widely distributed/more prestigious) a project is, the less likely it is to hire a female writer. Which, again, seems accurate -- women wrote 13% of the top 500 films in 2016, the same as in 1998. So -- membership/employment getting slightly higher, but still barely over a third; relative pay decreased since 2014; no change since 1998 in the small likelihood of being involved in a big project. I don't think that sounds like the good side of the deal.


As usual with stats they can imply things that aren't true. These figures are averaged out over the entire workforce and are so because there are less women that have managed to work up to the higher positions.

That's like saying women aren't as good at chess as men because statistically they are, on average, lower rated... simply because not as many have made it to the top.
Posted by: Colkurtz8, February 20th, 2018, 12:00pm; Reply: 57

Quoted from Heretic
I agree, but I'm not sure how one would go about finding those numbers -- a poll of some sort?


- Yeah, I acknowledged above that this would be near impossible to do accurately in the overall sense but in terms of taking a sample size from this site, I guess a poll would be your best approach.



Quoted from Heretic
they make 68 cents on the dollar compared to men, which presumably means that the bigger/more expensive (and therefore more widely distributed/more prestigious) a project is, the less likely it is to hire a female writer.


- Again, the statistics you posted are not pretty but wouldn't studios be all over hiring someone cheaper? As valid as some of the criticisms levelled at Hollywood about being #sowhite and sexist, it is, first and foremost, a business. Thus, driven by money. If you can draw the crowds, you will get work.
Posted by: Colkurtz8, February 20th, 2018, 12:07pm; Reply: 58

Quoted from Dustin
because there are less women that have managed to work up to the higher positions.


- Which will be quickly countered by "Because they're not given the same opportunities as men" Which, as an outsider, I'm not in a position to attest to its veracity. This is just what one hears all the time.

Posted by: Dustin, February 20th, 2018, 12:10pm; Reply: 59

Quoted from Heretic

This is a reasonable argument against quotas in many other parts of society, but I don't see what it has to do with screenwriting, where objective value is hard to assess (and perhaps irrelevant to boot). Certainly there's no reason to assume that any of the scripts that won this Zoetrope contest, for instance, are weaker than the competition. Unless you think Mr. Ward's script is so good that it must have been passed over by slimy Hillary donors or whatever.


I haven't assumed anything, only suggested possibilities. The competition is looking for diversity. They're not looking for stories per se, but the writers of those stories. It's reasonable to accept the possibility that better scripts were passed over because they were written by somebody that can't tick the diversity box.
Posted by: Dustin, February 20th, 2018, 12:31pm; Reply: 60

Quoted from Colkurtz8


- Which will be quickly countered by "Because they're not given the same opportunities as men" Which, as an outsider, I'm not in a position to attest to its veracity. This is just what one hears all the time.



This was my point on the psychology of women... not all women, I hasten to add. But, this is/was a man's world and has been since we split from the hermaphrodite thingy. Women are told that they are second. Even in the bible... which many still, unbelievably, follow today. Muslim women buried up to their necks then stoned to death. Happens today.

Here in the West, we've mostly moved on from that, aside from the bible stuff, yet still we moved into a society where women were treated as secondaries... they were to become secretaries, nurses, rather than running the office or doctors. Told both directly and indirectly that they weren't good enough.

The goalposts have moved again and that should be enough on its own. The great female writers are out there, obviously... and if you want to concentrate on that that's fine. Just make it a competition for women, people of colour, the disabled, and the LGBTQ crew only. White males are clearly not given the same chance so they should be discouraged in clear language rather than flowering it over with keywords like 'diversity' and 'fairness' that are all but when they omit one demographic.
Posted by: Colkurtz8, February 20th, 2018, 12:41pm; Reply: 61

Quoted from Dustin
This was my point on the psychology of women... not all women, I hasten to add. But, this is/was a man's world and has been since we split from the hermaphrodite thingy. Women are told that they are second. Even in the bible... which many still, unbelievably, follow today. Muslim women buried up to their necks then stoned to death. Happens today.

Here in the West, we've mostly moved on from that, aside from the bible stuff, yet still we moved into a society where women were treated as secondaries... they were to become secretaries, nurses, rather than running the office or doctors. Told both directly and indirectly that they weren't good enough.


- Yep, to paraphrase Bill Burr (with a bit of Mr. Jensen from Network) We, the white male, have been CRUSHING it since huMANs crawled out of the slime. We had a good run. Its now coming to an end.

But who's kidding who, we've bigger heads for the most part, shouldn't it follow we've bigger brains? ??)
Posted by: Colkurtz8, February 20th, 2018, 1:00pm; Reply: 62

Quoted from Dustin
White males are clearly not given the same chance so they should be discouraged in clear language rather than flowering it over with keywords like 'diversity' and 'fairness' that are all but when they omit one demographic.


- I think this is particularly resonant in regards the cultural conversation at large about gender. In that blatant misandry goes unchecked, sometimes celebrated or glossed over as an empowered, strong women talking while a man can't express a contrary opinion in relation to women without being excoriated with the misogynist, male chauvinist pig, dinosaur from the 50s, labels.

I get that the momentum is with women right now, they're riding the crest of this wave and that's long overdue but it seems to me (granted I'm referring to the more strident elements of the movement but these are the loudest therefore the most influential) are striving for superiority rather than equality.

As stated above, yes we had our time so this retaliation shouldn't come as a surprise, it doesn't, I just wished it was at least acknowledged because, more importantly, to go all the way over to the other side, where woman became the dominant of the sexes isn't a solution either. You've basically become what you've been fighting against.

Then its only a matter of time before the impetus changes and men come back looking to readdress the balance. The pendulum swings and we're back to square one.
Posted by: eldave1, February 20th, 2018, 1:43pm; Reply: 63
- The wage gap statistic is fake/inaccurate as it does not take into account all the variables (job type, education, etc. etc.). I am certain there is a gap that should be addressed, but nowhere near the numbers typically cited.  

- I cannot imagine that a script is turned down for production because of the gender or ethnicity of the author. Too much money at stake.

- I do believe that women are underrepresented in the script writing industry. I have no idea why.  

- I have no problem with programs or contests that are seeking to develop female or "diverse" writers. That's their prerogative and in all cases if that is there objective they should be crystal clear about it.
Posted by: khamanna, February 20th, 2018, 1:56pm; Reply: 64
I agree, if they want women, it's their prerogative. But they need to be upfront about it otherwise it's plain scamming men into submitting. They could go as far as not reading entries from a male writer.

I have no idea about Zoetrope, if the selection was done on the basis of merit or otherwise. Maybe it was after all. It's strange to see only female names in the finals though.
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 20th, 2018, 3:43pm; Reply: 65

Quoted from Warren
Can't wait to read this script, you really have tickets on yourself.

You sound like a sore loser. Have you read any of those "pretentious" scripts or are you just disrespecting the writers because you didn't place?

I'm looking forward to seeing how you cope with the reviews and criticism on this site, I think you might be one of those people who will defend their script to the death no matter what anyone says.


This explains your little review of my script. You came pre-loaded with angst and wanted to troll and try flame me.

I wonder if you still want to do this.. after I've reviewed your work.

I'd be amazed if I don't break you.

In any case, bring it on.. there can be no improvement without struggle.
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 20th, 2018, 3:45pm; Reply: 66

Quoted from MarkRenshaw
Try not to be too hard on yourself, a lot of these competitions are like lotteries with so many entries, many good scripts can get ignored. And yes, the judges will have their biases and preferences - they are human.

I'd suggest trying to be happy for the winners. Remember, these guys may have tried just as hard as you and had many rejections before getting a break. Resentment is like a form of self-harm.  

Best of luck with Burn. I hope you do better in other competitions.

-Mark


I'll try to be happy for them, and you're right. I just really needed to vent.

Thank you, Mark.
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 20th, 2018, 3:47pm; Reply: 67

Quoted from PrussianMosby
Actually, I stand behind him. No screenwriter should pay… blah, is my thing on and on…

At the moment I ask myself if people would even like my stuff.

It's that complicated so that I don't write anymore. I just see the chaos and shake my head.


I'll try to review your work, and I'll be as constructive and pleasant as I can be.

Don't give up on your passion, bro'.

I'm here, and I'll see your work.
Posted by: TheWarddd, February 20th, 2018, 3:49pm; Reply: 68

Quoted from Dustin


I'd say it's a bit of both.

I'm not averse to diversity, I love it. What I don't like though is unfairness. If 10 scripts are put in front of you, you should pick the best one and not the one you feel you should pick to help make society - mostly overly liberal white men - feel better about itself. You go in blind. Who the writer is shouldn't matter at all.

It's one of the reasons I stopped entering. The competitions are clearly not looking for white men so we should all save our money.


That sounds horrible.

I don't know what to say.

Posted by: Warren, February 20th, 2018, 3:53pm; Reply: 69

Quoted from TheWarddd



I'd be amazed if I don't break you.



The purpose of this site, or one of them, is to review scripts and provide feedback. I did this with your script. I stand by all the feedback I provided, and in my opinion it is all sound advice.

If you think you need to "break" me for giving your script an honest review maybe this isn’t the best place for you.


Posted by: Scar Tissue Films, February 20th, 2018, 4:40pm; Reply: 70

Quoted from Dustin


This was my point on the psychology of women... not all women, I hasten to add. But, this is/was a man's world and has been since we split from the hermaphrodite thingy. Women are told that they are second. Even in the bible... which many still, unbelievably, follow today. Muslim women buried up to their necks then stoned to death. Happens today.

Here in the West, we've mostly moved on from that, aside from the bible stuff, yet still we moved into a society where women were treated as secondaries... they were to become secretaries, nurses, rather than running the office or doctors. Told both directly and indirectly that they weren't good enough.

The goalposts have moved again and that should be enough on its own. The great female writers are out there, obviously... and if you want to concentrate on that that's fine. Just make it a competition for women, people of colour, the disabled, and the LGBTQ crew only. White males are clearly not given the same chance so they should be discouraged in clear language rather than flowering it over with keywords like 'diversity' and 'fairness' that are all but when they omit one demographic.


In the Bible, it makes it clear we're all equal, regardless of race, gender,  religion or any other man made label.

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

It's never been that way in the Church, of course, but they are two different things.
Posted by: Bogey, February 20th, 2018, 5:04pm; Reply: 71

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

In the Bible, it makes it clear...



Tried reading it once. Nothing about it was clear.
Posted by: Dustin, February 20th, 2018, 5:30pm; Reply: 72
Timothy 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord"

Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Exodus 20:17

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If, however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21.

“‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. 20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 22 Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, . . . 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge. 31 “‘You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place,[a] which is among them.’” Leviticus 15: 19-31


They're all from the bible too.
Posted by: eldave1, February 20th, 2018, 5:43pm; Reply: 73
One can find verses in the Bible and the Koran for that matter espousing both sides . Both books have been used to sponsor liberation and persecution.  Love and hate. The books are irrelevant. It's a matter if how people use them or abuse them.
Posted by: eldave1, February 20th, 2018, 5:45pm; Reply: 74

Quoted from Warren


The purpose of this site, or one of them, is to review scripts and provide feedback. I did this with your script. I stand by all the feedback I provided, and in my opinion it is all sound advice.

If you think you need to "break" me for giving your script an honest review maybe this isn’t the best place for you.




Yup
Posted by: Angry Bear, February 20th, 2018, 6:16pm; Reply: 75
Haven't kept up with all the posts in this thread, so I might come in late and make no sense. Wouldn't be the first time.

I have a writer friend who's been trying to make it with novels and short stories. He has sent his work to numerous publications and publishers, but his work is always rejected without even having been read. He's convinced it's because he has a VERY english white male sounding name. I told him he could use my name when sending his stuff out next time. Well see if there's a difference.
Posted by: FrankM, February 20th, 2018, 8:20pm; Reply: 76

Quoted from Angry Bear
Haven't kept up with all the posts in this thread, so I might come in late and make no sense. Wouldn't be the first time.

I have a writer friend who's been trying to make it with novels and short stories. He has sent his work to numerous publications and publishers, but his work is always rejected without even having been read. He's convinced it's because he has a VERY english white male sounding name. I told him he could use my name when sending his stuff out next time. Well see if there's a difference.


"Should we take a closer look at this one?"
"Well, that depends on whether you want to be mauled by an angry bear or not."



It's very difficult to definitively measure the magnitude of biases in hiring practices (which is close enough to selecting a writer to be comparable, with the advantage that actual research has gone into biases in hiring), generally requiring a special one-off event.

Such an event occurred in elite orchestras in the 1970s and 80s, where they started having musicians audition behind a screen so the graders could hear them but not see them (they also had them remove their shoes). The number of female orchestra members in these elite groups grew from 5% to 25%.

A few things to note about this:

1. Wages were fixed due to union rules, so there was no flexibility to hire a woman but pay her less. Given that constraint, "negotiating skills" are irrelevant, and prior hiring decisions seem to embed a straight-up preference for males.

2. The results did not shoot to 50%/50%.

3. Careful analysis showed that only about half of the increase was directly attributable to the blind judging. Over time, the female musicians were arriving better prepared on average. This points to some kind of a pipeline issue. The results might get to 50% eventually, but there's no inherent reason for it to settle precisely there.

A similar, humorous pipeline issue is present in Ohio. Lots of young musicians aspire to march in the Ohio State band... and especially to be that one who forms the "dot" on the i when they spell out Ohio. At one point the conductor changed the dot from a tuba player to a Sousaphone player, and immediately a ton of kids switched their instruments.

Posted by: Dustin, February 21st, 2018, 3:01am; Reply: 77
That's a good example, Frank, but it falls into the same question. How many of each were trying to join the orchestra in the first place? It could well be that it was 75% male and that makes females as equally represented as males. Now, imagine forcing more of those women through to make it 40%... what would happen to those 15% males that were certainly better than 15% of the females chosen before them just to match a stat?

Bit of a crappily structured question but I've just woke up and am still shattered after my long day yesterday.
Posted by: Dustin, February 21st, 2018, 4:45am; Reply: 78
I also understand that the blind trials showed that there was a prior and almost innate preference for males. This is again down to the psychology of the times. A psychology that has quite rightly changed for the better. I've watched Carry On films where middle-aged men are squeezing the bottoms and leching after apparent schoolgirls in uniform. This was all OK in the 60s and 70s and part way into the 80s even. Women have been vastly empowered since then and they did it through hard work. It wasn't handed to them... and quite rightly so. Women and everybody else for that matter should earn things on their own merits. If there are no white men in a workplace, so be it. If there are no women or black people, so be it too. IMO, trying to force/cheat these things only encourages more division - but then, perhaps that's the point?
Posted by: eldave1, February 21st, 2018, 11:25am; Reply: 79

Quoted from Angry Bear
Haven't kept up with all the posts in this thread, so I might come in late and make no sense. Wouldn't be the first time.

I have a writer friend who's been trying to make it with novels and short stories. He has sent his work to numerous publications and publishers, but his work is always rejected without even having been read. He's convinced it's because he has a VERY english white male sounding name. I told him he could use my name when sending his stuff out next time. Well see if there's a difference.


Can't imagine that is the case (the publishing industry is predominately white). Let us know how it goes.
Posted by: Heretic, February 21st, 2018, 11:35am; Reply: 80

Quoted from Dustin
The competition is looking for diversity. They're not looking for stories per se, but the writers of those stories. It's reasonable to accept the possibility that better scripts were passed over because they were written by somebody that can't tick the diversity box.


There's no particular reason to believe this about the Zoetrope competition. The winning *stories* all appear to have "diverse" topics and/or characters. As you yourself have indicated, any *writer*, including a white male, can write such stories (for instance, you could note the many white male semi-finalists who have done so).

Your claim is that a privately-run capitalist enterprise is willfully ignoring, or would consider willfully ignoring, good or even the best work, merely on the basis of the writer's identity -- that they care about writer identity more than story.

An alternative claim would be that a privately-run capitalist enterprise is choosing the work that's most marketable and/or best represents their brand -- that they care about story more than writer identity.

The latter is more convincing to me.
Posted by: eldave1, February 21st, 2018, 11:41am; Reply: 81
Frank - thanks for sharing the study. For some reason I recall seeing this on 60 minutes (or something like that) years ago.

Half of the increase being directly attributable to the blind judging is a pretty big deal IMO. If there were 100 Orchestra players and 20 of those slots were filled by men over a more qualified women that would be something warranting intervention. Can you imagine if that were true for pilots, doctors, etc. - I want the 100 best pilots, regardless of gender, flying the plane.

That ironically is what is wrong with solving the problem with placements. Using the same example, if 90 out of 100 of the best pilots are white males I sure as shit don't want to artificially replace them with women or minorities to meet some diversity goal (note - I continue to use pilots as an example because of my deep rooted fear of flying :)

Given the above stats though, I would welcome an examination to see if bias or barriers played a role in the percent of folks who train to be pilots. If not - okay dokay. If so , correct it (e.g., training programs, outreach, incentives, etc.) - anything other than having a lesser qualified pilot fly my plane.






Posted by: FrankM, February 21st, 2018, 12:23pm; Reply: 82
I agree that half the increase coming from blind judging is a big deal, was just pointing out that it wasn't the silver bullet people might assume it was. The pipeline issue is a big deal, and it means taking a look at the whole ecosystem. For writers, the foundational issue would be literacy (and not claiming it's 100% solved), but beyond that we need schools functional enough to teach what's necessary to function in the economy and still have some time left over for kids to be able to pursue their interests.

Of course, a huge percentage of those kids won't be passionate enough about any one thing in particular to change their life, but ideally it would take the serendipity out of finding one's passion. It's a given that most people will think most other people's passions are a waste of time (personally, I cannot for the life of me identify the social/economic benefit to the world of developing a person into an Olympic curler, but I have some faith that there must be some or they wouldn't exist).
Posted by: eldave1, February 21st, 2018, 12:33pm; Reply: 83

Quoted from FrankM
I cannot for the life of me identify the social/economic benefit to the world of developing a person into an Olympic curler, but I have some faith that there must be some or they wouldn't exist).


Gave me a laugh - thanks
Posted by: Dustin, February 21st, 2018, 12:53pm; Reply: 84
Women can fly a plane just as well as men. We had a female pilot on our last flight and I didn't think anything of it. Didn't even realise it was a thing, to be honest. Anyone can press a few buttons. Like anything else it takes believing in your own ability and women have had, and still do to some degree, to overcome the psychological barrier of believing they aren't good enough... or that it's a man's job. As more women become pilots, more will want to become pilots and the balance will even out relatively. It's got such masculine roots though that it will be hard for many women to even consider flying a plane. Most of the young girls would rather aspire to be a pretty steward. They need to learn that there isn't anything wrong with wanting to be a pretty pilot... and men, a dashing steward.

You don't deal with unfairness by changing who you're unfair to. You deal with it by admitting it and wanting things to change. The blind test on that orchestra doubtless opened a few minds to their own bias and since then we have a lot more female orchestra members. Indeed, according to Wiki, America has an almost 50/50 ratio.
Posted by: eldave1, February 21st, 2018, 1:03pm; Reply: 85

Quoted from Dustin
Women can fly a plane just as well as men. We had a female pilot on our last flight and I didn't think anything of it. Didn't even realise it was a thing, to be honest. Anyone can press a few buttons. Like anything else it takes believing in your own ability and women have had, and still do to some degree, to overcome the psychological barrier of believing they aren't good enough... or that it's a man's job. As more women become pilots, more will want to become pilots and the balance will even out relatively. It's got such masculine roots though that it will be hard for many women to even consider flying a plane. Most of the young girls would rather aspire to be a pretty steward. They need to learn that there isn't anything wrong with wanting to be a pretty pilot... and men, a dashing steward.

You don't deal with unfairness by changing who you're unfair to. You deal with it by admitting it and wanting things to change. The blind test on that orchestra doubtless opened a few minds to their own bias and since then we have a lot more female orchestra members. Indeed, according to Wiki, America has an almost 50/50 ratio.


Sure they can and wish there were more of them. All skill levels being equal, I would actually prefer female pilots.  Same with Doctors and a ton of other services. I have generally selected female Doctors.

So I guess I am going to reveal my bias (misogyny?)  here. But, assuming talent levels are equal, I would select a woman over a man most of the time.  In my life experience, woman are:

- Less reckless
- Better listeners
- Have a greater capacity for empathy
- Are more thorough
- Less prone to let their hormones get in the way of a correct decision than a man is to let his testerone get in the way of his.

And yes - concur totally with your 2nd paragraph.


Posted by: Colkurtz8, February 21st, 2018, 1:39pm; Reply: 86

Quoted from eldave1
So I guess I am going to reveal my bias (misogyny?)  here.


- The word is "misandry" (if you are indeed referring to the opposite of misogyny) and I only bring it up because I've been recently asking friends (male and female) just as an experiment, if the topic of gender comes up in conversation, what is the "m" word used to describe someone who is anti women. Say 95% of them say misogyny right away. Then i ask what is the "m" word for someone who is anti men...not one person so far has been able to answer me.

I find that indicative in regards the balance of discourse we are having about gender at the moment.


P.S. I should note that I had to look up the word myself and didn't recognize it when I saw it.

P.P.S. The 5% of people who couldn't answer the first question never got the second question so they won't be included in my published findings  :P
Posted by: eldave1, February 21st, 2018, 1:43pm; Reply: 87

Quoted from Colkurtz8


- The word is "misandry" (if you are indeed referring to the opposite of misogyny) and I only bring it up because I've been recently asking friends (male and female) just as an experiment, if the topic of gender comes up in conversation, what is the "m" word used to describe someone who is anti women. Say 95% of them say misogyny right away. Then i ask what is the "m" word for someone who is anti men...not one person so far has been able to answer me.

I find that indicative in regards the balance of discourse we are having about gender at the moment.


P.S. I should note that I had to look up the word myself and didn't recognize it when I saw it.

P.P.S. The 5% of people who couldn't answer the first question never got the second question so they won't be included in my published findings  :P


Hmm.

I'm not anti men. I am pro women. So maybe it should be mashogny:)

Posted by: FrankM, February 21st, 2018, 1:59pm; Reply: 88

Quoted from eldave1


Hmm.

I'm not anti men. I am pro women. So maybe it should be mashogny:)



The word is philogyny, which sounds like "the act of coughing up stuff" and is probably the reason it's not used more often.
Posted by: Colkurtz8, February 21st, 2018, 2:00pm; Reply: 89

Quoted from eldave1
I'm not anti men. I am pro women. So maybe it should be mashogny:)


;D I'm pro everybody...most people...some people...depends.

In the context of what you said about having a preference for women in certain sectors, and how you used the word misogyny with a question mark (albeit tongue in cheek I'm assuming) I figured this was what you were talking about.
Posted by: eldave1, February 21st, 2018, 2:44pm; Reply: 90

Quoted from Colkurtz8


;D I'm pro everybody...most people...some people...depends.

In the context of what you said about having a preference for women in certain sectors, and how you used the word misogyny with a question mark (albeit tongue in cheek I'm assuming) I figured this was what you were talking about.


Yeah - got it - was just being whimsical. Cheers
Print page generated: September 15th, 2019, 6:04pm