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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  That's not how you Structure a script! Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    That's not how you Structure a script!  (currently 7163 views)
JamminGirl
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 2:30pm Report to Moderator
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Honestly, I feel like "structure" can feel like an imposition on a story. Not all storys are about "the hero's journey" yet all the gurus seem offer that specific thriller genre structure as a blueprint for all stories.
It frustrated me at first until I realised that some of these 'gurus' are imbeciles. They often lack insight into human behaviour and so they look at stories in abstract. They come up with reasons they think a story works without understanding the fundamentals (I think).  

Another thing I realized is that some other writers follow their rules like hawk to the detriment of their stories. Now I'm not saying they don't help at times but here is an example of a writer of combining Trottier's Bible rules and Save the Cat's.

A guy's story template


Though I'm no fan of August, he makes the point succintly here:


Quoted Text


When I was first starting out, I was paranoid about structure � but that�s because I didn�t know what it really was.

I had of course read Syd Field�s book, and I worried that if I wasn�t hitting my act breaks at exactly the right page number, I was a dismal failure. Then at USC I was introduced to a �clothesline� template, which was baffling. People smarter than me would talk about eight sequences, or eleven sequences, and I would nod as if I understood.

And now I do: It�s all bunk.

At the risk of introducing another screenwriting metaphor, I�ll say that structure is like your skeleton. It�s the framework on which you hang the meat of your story. If someone�s bones are in the wrong place, odds are he�ll have a hard time moving, and it won�t be comfortable. It�s the same with a screenplay. If the pieces aren�t put together right, the story won�t work as well as it could.

But here�s the thing: not every skeleton is the same.

Think about it in real-world terms.
Human skeletons are pretty consistent, but you also have gazelles and giraffes, cockroaches and hummingbirds, each with a different structure, but all equally valid designs. The standard dogma about screenplay structure focuses on hitting certain moments at certain page numbers. But in my experience, these measurements hold true for Chinatown and nothing I�ve actually written.

My advice? Stop thinking about structure as something you impose upon your story. It�s an inherent part of it, like the setup to a joke. As you�re figuring out the story you want to tell, ask yourself a few questions:

What�s the next thing this character would realistically do?
What�s the most interesting thing this character could do?
Where do I want the story to go next?
Where do I want the story to end up eventually?
Does this scene stand up on its own merit, or is it just setting stuff up for later?
What are the later repercussions of this scene? How could I maximize them?
If you answer these questions at every turn, I guarantee you�ll have a terrifically structured screenplay. It might not hit predefined act breaks, but it will be consistently engaging, something that can�t be said for many �properly structured� scripts.

http://johnaugust.com/archives/2004/stressing-over-structure



How about you? Do you think "structure" before story?

Or better yet, How do you structure your story?


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mcornetto  -  May 12th, 2009, 8:31pm
Sorry, changed u to you in the subject because it was really bugging me.
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Why One
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 3:39pm Report to Moderator
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It's good that you mention this.  Scott Frank made an appearance on another forum to answer questions.  One writer asked about whether he employed the eight sequence method or any other variation.  He didn't know what that was.  But when he explained it, he replied with:


Quoted Text
This gives me a headache. But if it works for you, go for it.

I wonder, though, if Steve Zallian organizes his scripts this way. Or Tony Gilroy. Or Charlie Kaufman. Or Paul Attanasio. Or Paul Thomas Anderson. Or the Coens. Yes, now I that I think about it, Slumdog Millionaire could have benefitted from being a little better sequenced.

I'm sorry. I'm being snarky. An asshole even. But as a rule, I'm not much for methods or templates. It's like teaching people who can't draw how to draw by copying an original, the method being to turn the original drawing upside down so you can better see the lines. It's all very outside-in. It doesn't often lead to a great artist. And I don't know that the method you describe leads to anything other than well organized deadness.

If your characters are living breathing souls, you'll know when you're ignoring them or when the story is veering. You'll know when not enough is happening or the story has stopped or digressed. You'll know because you're a storyteller and you feel it, or others feel it when they read it if you've gotten too close.

I also can see Studio Executives getting jacuzzis in their pants over something like this. And every meeting turning into a counting session.

Though you just know that after all this I'm now going to look at my current script and start adding up sequences. I'll get back to you...


In my opinion, using structural templates helps writers starting out.  But after that, a writer should be able feel his way through a story.
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JamminGirl
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:00pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Why One


In my opinion, using structural templates helps writers starting out.  



I don't agree. I remember taking some film courses a couple years ago and cannot remember a single time an instructor recommended any of these structures except vaguely mentioning syd feld's "screenplay"(which I avoid like the plague).

One instructor's advice was "make sure something interesting/big happens every ten pages... and make sure all the scenes are vital and hit different beats)

I was in a muddled mind-frame the other day and took a look at "save the cat" after another poster praised it. Man, that messed me up for a few good days. The story I had in mind didn't fit his beats and it would've changed the story in such a fundamental way that it would be a complete other story. A cliche.

So I suggest that newbies learn dramatic fundamentals instead of following templates.


One guy(let's call him Truby because... well because that's his name) raged against the three act structure here (maybe because he thinks his template is better)


Quoted Text


...
When they do decide to get a little knowledge, most writers go out and buy a couple of books on screenwriting. And what do they learn? Almost invariably, these books tell them about the so-called 3-act structure. These writers have just killed any chance they had of writing a script that will sell.

The so-called 3-act structure is the biggest, most destructive myth ever foisted on writers. I would like to call it obsolete. But that implies that it worked in the first place. It didn't. Let me explain why.

The 3-act structure exists for one reason and one reason only: a story analyst declared it into existence. He found that something important seemed to happen in some successful scripts on page 27 and on page 87. He called them plot points, said that based on these plot points every screenplay had three acts, and incredibly, everyone bought it.

Such has been the sad state of screenwriting training and the desperation of screenwriters themselves that no one noticed that the emperor was in fact naked. Instead, a lot of people who should know better joined in the chorus and wrote screenwriting books (over 100 to date) agreeing with this silly idea.
...
http://www.raindancecanada.com/?q=node/69


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JamminGirl  -  May 11th, 2009, 4:39pm
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Dreamscale
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:19pm Report to Moderator
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I do agree with Why One, and the quote from Scott Frank.  It's exaclty the way I write, and exactly the way I feel when one points out that my struture is flawed, because it doesn't follow certain beats, or it's not typical 3 Act, blah, blah, blah.

I've said this so mnay times, and it looks like I'll keep on saying it.  The reason that basically every movie is a piece of crap these days, is because they're all the same thing...all the same structure, and the same obvious plotlines and structures...all so copycat, been there, seen that.

I do agree that all writers need to have a basic understanding of these fundamentals, but write your own story, the way you see it...the way you want it to flow and turn out.  Buck the system, be original, and be proud of what you write.
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JamminGirl
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:33pm Report to Moderator
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Who is Scott Frank? Maybe I should google...

I like when produced writers buck these notions we read in bestselling books


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Dreamscale
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:36pm Report to Moderator
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jammin', what were you disagreeing to, in your earlier post?
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JamminGirl
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:38pm Report to Moderator
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I disagreed that a newbie should use the template at first. To me templates only kill your story...

my issue is with this "Hero's journey" that everyone's written on.

step 1 a guy lives life regularly until a big event changes things.
step 2 he questions whether he should follow through
step 3 a catalyst makes up his mind for him.
step 4 things go very bad.

Act2
step 5 he tries to fix things.
step 6 fails.
step 7 he tries another way
step 8 wins
step 9 a worse thing occurs

Act3
step 10 he fights, fails but...
step 11 he realizes how to win
step 12 his method doesn't seem to work
step 13 then it does. the end.


How does a story like "To kill a Mockingbird" or "taxi driver" fits within this template?


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After the Trade 3 pages

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JamminGirl  -  May 11th, 2009, 5:11pm
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dogglebe
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from JamminGirl
I like when produced writers buck these notions we read in bestselling books


How many of these bestselling books are written by produced writers?


Phil

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Dreamscale
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:50pm Report to Moderator
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I guess it's a tough call.  If a "newbie" is having trouble understanding how structure works, they most likley could benefit from a template of some kind.  But, they shouldn't follow it to the "T" if it messes up their story, but then again, maybe their story is very flawed to start out with?

I think you know how against "the rules" I am, but then again, you see me constantly admonishing scripts that have camera direction and we see, we hear, etc. in there.  I guess what I'm against is people thinking they have to write something a certain way because some one says so, or a cetain script is written that way.  I say write it anyway you want to, as long as it makes sense, and follows proper formatting, etc.  Keep it an easy and enjoyable read, don't clutter it with unneccessary things that take the reader out of the read.

Every story should be unique, and based on that, they're all not going to fit into whatever little shell, so and so tells you to cram it into.
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Why One
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 4:52pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from JamminGirl
Who is Scott Frank?


Scott Frank's most notable credits include "Little Man Tate", "Malice", "Get Shorty", "Out of Sight", "Minority Report", "Flight of the Phoenix", "The Lookout", "The Interpreter", "Marley & Me".  He got an Oscar nomination for "Out of Sight" and has been nominated and won a number of Edgar Awards.

He's done a ton of uncredited work and is apparently one of those go-to guys that directors and studios favor.  I heard he's quite the respected writer amongst other pro screenwriters.
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JamminGirl
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 5:07pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe


How many of these bestselling books are written by produced writers?


Phil



the guy who wrote 'save the cat" sold some scripts. not sure if they've been produced though...


Quoted from Why One


Scott Frank's most notable credits include "Little Man Tate", "Malice", "Get Shorty", "Out of Sight", "Minority Report", "Flight of the Phoenix", "The Lookout", "The Interpreter", "Marley & Me".  He got an Oscar nomination for "Out of Sight" and has been nominated and won a number of Edgar Awards.

He's done a ton of uncredited work and is apparently one of those go-to guys that directors and studios favor.  I heard he's quite the respected writer amongst other pro screenwriters.


I don't think I've seen any of these but I've heard good things about Minority Report, Get shorty(maybe I saw that with danny devito) and Marley & Me(I started watching but stopped after they named the dog. Bob marley should be respected! lol   I just couldn't watch a movie about a dog) but I'll check them out.


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JamminGirl  -  May 11th, 2009, 5:19pm
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Why One
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 5:20pm Report to Moderator
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I think the "Save the Cat" guy's produced credits include "Stop! Or My Mum Will Shoot" and "Blank Check".  Not too sure what else he has done since.
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JamminGirl
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 5:40pm Report to Moderator
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So what are the fundamentals you employ in your scripts and btw how do I get my hands on some of those sold scripts by newbies? would love to see their strategies...


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dresseme
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 6:17pm Report to Moderator
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I think you should use "the rules" as a basic guideline and then go from there, creating your own style.  However, if you come to find out your style doesn't work (after receiving peer reviews), you might want to change it up.

Basically, write how you feel comfortable writing, but be willing to change it if it flat-out doesn't work.
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James McClung
Posted: May 11th, 2009, 6:41pm Report to Moderator
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I think story should come before structure. Unless you're a really terrible writer, whatever you decide to write is ultimately going to conform to the three act structure anyway. Something starts and something ends. That's a story. I think it's important to understand structure before you start to mess with it but once you know what you're doing, it really doesn't matter how long it takes to get to the first turning point or the conclusion. If it doesn't work, you'll know. Otherwise, you don't know what your doing and need to stay close to the rules a little longer. And after that, if it's still not working, they'll be enough people telling you about it for you to realize. When 80% of people who read your script are telling you something's wrong, they're usually right. 50% is a different story; that usually boils down to taste.

So yeah. Story first. I can't say something like Mean Girls or your average Matthew McConaghy movie doesn't have their structure down pat but in the end, the stories are worthless.


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