Quoted from George Willson Once I stopped my laughter at this comment, I figured I'd say something. So you're telling me that this woman decided to teach her 11th grade English class about screenwriting when the site clearly labeled "elements of short stories"? I know you're vehemently against the oldest elements of structuring a story, but this really is the most ridiculous comment I've ever read. ...regurgitating what has been said in the screenplay books...

I'm not "against the oldest elements of structuring a story", I'm against the claim that fundamentally all stories are structured in that template.
And yes, I'm saying exactly that about the teacher.

Quoted from JamminGirl I'm not "against the oldest elements of structuring a story", I'm against the claim that fundamentally all stories are structured in that template. And yes, I'm saying exactly that about the teacher.

You're correct, not all stories have a beginning, a middle and an end.

Quoted from mcornetto You're correct, not all stories have a beginning, a middle and an end.

Name one...that we can all find readily available. Not one that you wrote for an assignment in high school or one saved on your hard drive somewhere. One we can get at the library, video store, watch in a theatre. I'm talking one that is published, produced or otherwise publicly available.

I'm honestly interested in seeing a professional narrative that doesn't possess a beginning, middle and end.

Quoted from George Willson I'm honestly interested in seeing a professional narrative that doesn't possess a beginning, middle and end.

"Naked Lunch", by William Burroughs.  Not to everybody's tastes, but I enjoyed certain segments of the book immensely.

Like Eraserhead, it is a work of art that you should experience, but you only need experience it once.

It is said that Burroughs himself stated that he wrote the book so that the chapters could be read in any order.

Having read the book, I would agree that it would make little difference.

I see Bert was able to think of a novel written in the mid-fifties based on the hallucinogenic ravings of a heroin addict. I imagine that is rather interesting.

What else do you have? Anyone? Let's up the ante to something that is relevant to the discussion and name a movie. An actual, produced, feature length film. After all, we are trying to learn from those that made it right? How many made it with a story with no beginning, middle, or end. I mean, this is where the discussion began, isn't it?

Quoted from George Willson Name one...

Quoted from George Willson What else do you have?

Haha...you are worse than my kid, George -- wanting another example when you already insisted that even one would be enough.

You probably get the same thing from your kids, you big hypocrite.  

I was actually being sarcastic with my comment.  All stories have a beginning, middle and end.  They have to, otherwise they don't feel like a story.  

Now there are films that don't have a beginning, middle, and end but that is an entirely different matter. We might see this non-story pattern in the form of character study,  a slice of life type of film, or something more experimental.  Where there isn't really a story but they do satisfy us as a film.  My favourite film that doesn't really have a beginning, middle, and end - or for that matter might have a story but isn't sure - and if it was it might not have happened, could of happened, or is happening now - is Last Year at Marienbad.

We won't even go into the world of non-narrative film, an art form in which all bets are off.  An example of this type of film would be Koyaanisqatsi.

Quoted from mcornetto Now there are films that don't have a beginning, middle, and end but that is an entirely different matter. We might see this non-story pattern in the form of character study,  a slice of life type of film, or something more experimental.  Where there isn't really a story but they do satisfy us as a film.

Like some Jean-Luc Godard's films. (but the first of them was an accident. During a screening, the projectionist mixed by accident the reels and people thought in was on purpose. Everyone then claims that Godard was a genius...

Quoted from mcornetto Last Year at Marienbad

Alain Robbe-Grillet wrote it. He was someone VERY special in French films in the 60's. Such films like "Trans-Europ-Express", "L'Immortelle" or "L'Eden et Après" are more experimental films than real films. Robbe-Grillet was mainly a writer. He tried to "unbuilt" the telling of the stories through films that were most phantasms or dreams. "Trans-Europe-Express" is the perfect example. But I'm sorry for "last Year in Marienbad" does has a beginning (the meeting of the woman and the unknown man), a middle (the evocation of the memories of that man and the trouble of the woman) and an end (the woman leaves her husband and follows the unknown man). even if the construction is unstructured the story exists.

Michel

But at the same time, you have to start a story somewhere. From that point you have to progress it somewhere and then you have to find a place to end it.

Quoted from bert Haha...you are worse than my kid, George -- wanting another example when you already insisted that even one would be enough. You probably get the same thing from your kids, you big hypocrite

Well, I was also afraid how-to books would come up. Then we would get into books that have a purpose beyond telling a discernible story, and it turns into a big mess beyond what we're talking about.

Besides, without comment from those who started this mess to begin with, it becomes a moot point. People can write what they want to and others can choose to watch (read) it or not.

So I'm leaving this thread at this point (for real, this time), and if anyone wants to actually learn something, they can feel free to ask. If they want to argue about something as asinine as whether or not a movie needs a plot, please continue.

Quoted from michel even if the construction is unstructured the story exists.

But it may never have happened.  A story exists but is it THE story?

Quoted from mcornetto A story exists but is it THE story?

It's still a story to me.

Let's take another example: George Cuckor's "Les Girls".

The same story is told three times by three different girls and each time the story is different. The story depends of the point of view of the girls. Who says the truth? Who lies? Is there a truth after all? That's the story of the film.

Quoted from George Willson Name one...that we can all find readily available. Not one that you wrote for an assignment in high school or one saved on your hard drive somewhere. One we can get at the library, video store, watch in a theatre. I'm talking one that is published, produced or otherwise publicly available. I'm honestly interested in seeing a professional narrative that doesn't possess a beginning, middle and end.

Beginning, middle and end is not a structure. You can break anything up in three pieces and call it beginning, middle and end.

I was referring to intro, complications, rising action, denouement thing you posted.

Quoted from JamminGirl Beginning, middle and end is not a structure. You can break anything up in three pieces and call it beginning, middle and end. I was referring to intro, complications, rising action, denouement thing you posted.

But that is exactly what people mean when they talk about a 3 act structure, it is simply a way of describing the structure that most stories have. Beginning, middle and end. The simple fact is that if you write a movie that has no intro, complications and rising action then it is more than likely going to be a pretty boring affair and not many people will go to see it.

i.e. if you want to be a successful screenwriter then you have a far better chance if you write movies that are structured they way people expect their movies to be structured, consciously or not. You of course do not have to, but if you choose not to then be prepared for harsh criticism from the majority and enjoy the praise from the art crowd, but also accept their donations of bread so that you can eat.

Nobody is saying you have to, so I do not really see the point in arguing this topic (the second thread you have done this btw). But it is an absolute fact that the vast majority of successful movies since the birth of Cinema follow some sort of basic storytelling structure, i.e. they engage their audience and keep their attention until the very end (or at least try to). So if you want to become a successful screenwriter it should be seen as an important part of your toolbox.  No-one is saying you need to be a slave to structure, it is not rocket science, if you watch movies you know this anyway.

Someone posted a quote by Scott Frank on how he does not follow structure when writing. Are you kidding me? This is the man who wrote..

Get Shorty, Minority Report, Marley and Me and The Interpreter amongst others.


You really believe that Minority Report is not structured like a traditional Hollywood action movie? Do you really think that Stephen Speilberg would direct an action script that was not structured properly? Do you think that the Studio would give him enough cash (even him) to not only make this movie but pay Tom Cruise if they were not 100% happy that the script would work.

Minority report is a perfect example of the 3 act structure at work, the set-up, the inciting incident (the ball coming out with his name on it) the fun and games in the 2nd act, the 3 act finale with the false defeat etc... etc..


It is worth noting that of these movies mentioned Scott Frank only has sole credit for one of them (Get Shorty) and that was adapted from a book by a writer who knows how to tell a good story and thus was already written with some structure in place.

Could it be that others were drafted in to help structure the movies because Scott Frank does not care for it? Or is he just full of shit? It may be that he means he does not think about structure but that could just mean he is, like many of us, subconsciously aware of it and uses it almost without thinking about it. But the facts are that these movies do follow a formula to some degree whether he admits it or not.

"THREE ACTS" is arbitrary.  Have you read Ibsen's "a doll's house"? Even that three act play wasn't broken down in the way you advocate and I can tell you that it is far from boring and is still either perform or reference in works today. You think that the absence of that template equals boring. Open your mind. This "rising action-climax-denouement" is based on the hero's journey  template. I hate to keep referring to films like Taxi Driver, but I will, it doesn't follow that structure and it was far from boring. The same can be said of  "Ordinary people".

Anyways, I'm sure someone will come here and interpret those films differently.

The gist of my argument is that YOU CAN DESIGN YOUR OWN STRUCTURE and make it exciting. Use literary tools that include suspence, begin in medias res, Use set pieces, and lay your grownd work knowing what's ahead, Use parallels, use contrasts to make things much better or much worse, make room for the after math, use melodrama wisely, Fake out your audience(trick them with some false alarms), do a bait and switch on them example, in a scene everything seems to be about one blatant thing, while another thing occurs almost unnoticed until later something is revealed... etc
Once you know these tools, you can structure your film anyway and it will absolutely work.

Quoted from JamminGirl ... YOU CAN DESIGN YOUR OWN STRUCTURE and make it exciting...

I'll have to try this.  Design my own structure.  Hmmm, this has got me thinking.  Quite inspirational really.  I'm going to try a jigsaw structure for my next script.