Dustin, Dustin, Dustin...really?

Hmmm...

OK, how about this?  You know damn well that writers who don't necessarily write well, do get produced and sometimes even "make it" in the industry, right?  I mean, you've been spouting off about some script of yours that's being filmed, right?  See, my point?

And coversely, many, many very good writers who do write well, don't get their scripts into the right hands and don't end up making it.  I mean...uh...look at...uh...Bert, for example.  Damn good writer who writes damn good...or well, I guess, right.

See what I'm saying?  Bert shouldn't quit writing, should he?

Dude, in all seriousness, it's about good advice and poor advice and as usual, you're giving out poor advice.

Beginning/young/whatever you want to call it writers should not use exact songs in their scripts.  Period.

Anyone expecting the majority of readers to google songs, bands, or whatever, while reading their script, is an idiot, point blank.  And you've proven that to be true - you do expect this, you say you'd happily do it, and you're an idiot, so case closed.  

Quoted from Dreamscale Dustin, Dustin, Dustin...really? Hmmm...

This reads a lot like you've orgasmed after shouting my name.

Quoted from Dreamscale OK, how about this?  You know damn well that writers who don't necessarily write well, do get produced and sometimes even "make it" in the industry, right?   I mean, you've been spouting off about some script of yours that's being filmed, right?  See, my point?

Those writers go out and produce their own films. Or, sometimes, it's just the best the producer can afford. Give me an example of a bad writer that has made it in the industry.

Two scripts of mine are being made by other people and I'm making two or three myself. I've also been commissioned to write a feature with a £4 million pound budget. My first short film (that I'm making) will be shown at the BAFTA ceremony in November. I've also just got through to the final of the BBC writer's room, out of 1300 scripts. Proof is in the pudding. Where's yours?

Quoted from Dreamscale And coversely, many, many very good writers who do write well, don't get their scripts into the right hands and don't end up making it.  I mean...uh...look at...uh...Bert, for example.  Damn good writer who writes damn good...or well, I guess, right.

Unfortunately, Bert is not prolific enough and doesn't make the right moves. I'm sure that if he did, he'd get somewhere.

Quoted from Dreamscale See what I'm saying?

No.

Quoted from Dreamscale Bert shouldn't quit writing, should he?

Bert is a good writer. I have never said that good writers should quit. Only the bad ones... which happens to be around 99%.

Quoted from Dreamscale Dude, in all seriousness, it's about good advice and poor advice and as usual, you're giving out poor advice.

I share the benefit of my experience. I'm not giving advice.

Quoted from Dreamscale Beginning/young/whatever you want to call it writers should not use exact songs in their scripts.  Period.

Why not?

Quoted from Dreamscale Anyone expecting the majority of readers to google songs, bands, or whatever, while reading their script, is an idiot, point blank.  And you've proven that to be true - you do expect this, you say you'd happily do it, and you're an idiot, so case closed.

If I've paid a reader they better do their job. Writing songs in a script is neither here nor there... if a reader wants to skip it, that is their prerogative and a missed opportunity to educate themselves. It is not idiotic to want to expand one's knowledge... it is however, to do the opposite.

Quoted from DustinBowcot This reads a lot like you've orgasmed after shouting my name.

Well, if that turns you on or gets you off, more power to you, bro.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Those writers go out and produce their own films. Or, sometimes, it's just the best the producer can afford. Give me an example of a bad writer that has made it in the industry.

Really?  Dude, c'mon now.  That list is WAY TOO LONG to even begin to think about.  Either you don't watch many movies, or you just don't have a clue.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Two scripts of mine are being made by other people and I'm making two or three myself. I've also been commissioned to write a feature with a £4 million pound budget. My first short film (that I'm making) will be shown at the BAFTA ceremony in November. I've also just got through to the final of the BBC writer's room, out of 1300 scripts. Proof is in the pudding. Where's yours?

Exactly my point about writers who don't and/or can't write well that get produced.  You get me?  That pudding has to be edible for any proof to come out of it.

Where're mine?  Mine are with Bert - I guess I'm not "prolific enough".  When mine hit, they'll hit big.  

Quoted from DustinBowcot Bert is a good writer. I have never said that good writers should quit. Only the bad ones... which happens to be around 99%.

And there you go again.  By "bad writers", is that based on your opinion?  You seem to defend lots of bad writers here on SS and give them all sorts of sugarcoated BS, as well as advice...no?

Quoted from DustinBowcot If I've paid a reader they better do their job. Writing songs in a script is neither here nor there... if a reader wants to skip it, that is their prerogative and a missed opportunity to educate themselves. It is not idiotic to want to expand one's knowledge... it is however, to do the opposite.

If you've paid a reader?  What the fuck does that have to do with anything?  Chances are good that you should be paying peeps to read your drivel, otherwise, you're not going to get too many takers on those snoozefests.

Point being, SS is not a paid reader scenario.   My comments about reading and not reading based on obvious mistakes and things that shouldn't be in Spec scripts are based on what the average non paid reader will put up with.

OK, my weekend is about to begin, so I'm going to try and stay away from things that irritate me, and 1 of those things is you, fucknut.  You get me?

Quoted from Dreamscale Dude, in all seriousness, it's about good advice and poor advice and as usual, you're giving out poor advice. Beginning/young/whatever you want to call it writers should not use exact songs in their scripts.  Period. Anyone expecting the majority of readers to google songs, bands, or whatever, while reading their script, is an idiot, point blank.  And you've proven that to be true - you do expect this, you say you'd happily do it, and you're an idiot, so case closed.

I'm on the fence about your first point.  I often disagree with Dustin.  Whatever he says usually has me shaking my head, like his famed catchphrase "do whatever you want."  But lately, I have been coming around to that catchphrase - to an extent.

Second point - agreed.

Third point - agreed - but let's not get into name calling.  I, personally, have never had to Google anything I read in a script, spec wise or pro.  Would I want anyone to Google anything about my script?  Fuck no!  Not while they're in the process of reading it.  Do that shit after you have finished my script.  I know for a fact if I went on Youtube to see about a song some writer insisted on using, I'd be lost to that script.  I'd see some recommended videos on the side, and start watching them.  Maybe I'll want to check my e-mail next, or go on Facebook.  This could go on and on, and, maybe I would do the same with a good writer and a good script, but for not as long, but the problem is - I still lost my attention - I still lost focused of what I was supposed to be reading.  Whether it's a half an hour, 15 minutes or 5 minutes, it's 5 minutes too long.  Now I'm not saying everyone is like this, but I would never, ever, want anyone to Google anything while reading my shit.  Hell, I already surf the net enough while reading scripts on here or else where, why the hell would a writer want to give me another reason to keep on doing it?  

Quoted from Dreamscale OK, my weekend is about to begin, so I'm going to try and stay away from things that irritate me, and 1 of those things is you, fucknut.  You get me?

Relax, dude, you don't agree with him, that's it, leave it be.  You don't have to resort to the name calling.  It's only going to fuel the fire.  There are people I disagree with and have no interest in talking to or even associating with because their advice or way of thinking irritates the fuck out of me, but I just let it slide.  If you know you're going to clash constantly with someone who you so strongly dislike, walk the other way.  I'm only saying that because it doesn't seem like anything good ever comes out of it when you 2 interact.

Quoted from Guest "do whatever you want."  But lately, I have been coming around to that catchphrase - to an extent.

Yeah - you can always do whatever you want, but you might be harming your script somewhat. Take a look at this link to a five minute film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jjeS334a_I
Yeah - it's not great, but it's okay. The guy wanted to use Earth Wind & Fire's “That’s the Way of the World”.

Here's the result:
http://www.jimbobmovies.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-license-a-song-for-a-short-movie/

Now, you can write just whatever you want, but I'd still say... a little caution.  

Quoted from Dreamscale Really?  Dude, c'mon now.  That list is WAY TOO LONG to even begin to think about.  Either you don't watch many movies, or you just don't have a clue.

You can't name one bad writer that has made it in the industry. Bad writers don't make it, ever... bad writers don't get any interest in their work, ever.

Quoted from Dreamscale Where're mine?  Mine are with Bert - I guess I'm not "prolific enough".  When mine hit, they'll hit big.

You and Bert are nowhere near the same level. Yours isn't anything to do with prolificness, indeed, were you to increase your productivity it would be tantamount to torture.

Quoted from Dreamscale And there you go again.  By "bad writers", is that based on your opinion?  You seem to defend lots of bad writers here on SS and give them all sorts of sugarcoated BS, as well as advice...no?

Bad writers are bad writers... based on everyone's opinion. They're usually the writers that don't get anywhere no matter how hard they try... they then end up at places like this belittling newbs.

Quoted from Dreamscale If you've paid a reader?  What the fuck does that have to do with anything?  Chances are good that you should be paying peeps to read your drivel, otherwise, you're not going to get too many takers on those snoozefests.

Analysts are readers too, and the only readers one actually needs. The good ones need paying.

Quoted from Dreamscale Point being, SS is not a paid reader scenario.   My comments about reading and not reading based on obvious mistakes and things that shouldn't be in Spec scripts are based on what the average non paid reader will put up with.

Ah, so your comments are based on what the readers here at SS might put up with... LOL. Yeah, we're on completely different pages.

Quoted from Forgive Yeah - you can always do whatever you want, but you might be harming your script somewhat. Take a look at this link to a five minute film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jjeS334a_I Yeah - it's not great, but it's okay. The guy wanted to use Earth Wind & Fire's “That’s the Way of the World”. Here's the result: http://www.jimbobmovies.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-license-a-song-for-a-short-movie/ Now, you can write just whatever you want, but I'd still say... a little caution.

Haha I know, I meant story wise.  I'm so busy worrying about this or that - and I've been doing it for far too long - that I'm just going to write whatever the heck I want this next go around.  If it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't - but I won't be hammering myself over the head with all of these "you gotta hit this point at this beat" or "save the cat this and save the cat that" or any of that screenwriting guru bullshit.  I'm just going to try something different for a change.  

Quoted from Forgive Yeah - you can always do whatever you want, but you might be harming your script somewhat. Take a look at this link to a five minute film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jjeS334a_I Yeah - it's not great, but it's okay. The guy wanted to use Earth Wind & Fire's “That’s the Way of the World”. Here's the result: http://www.jimbobmovies.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-license-a-song-for-a-short-movie/ Now, you can write just whatever you want, but I'd still say... a little caution.

The writer there hasn't harmed the script... The script has not been harmed at all. The producer has simply had to use something else in the film. It was his own fault that he put the songs into the film first without seeking permission.

Chances are what we write does not get used... that doesn't mean we shouldn't write it anyway. I write action scenes even though there will be choreographers whose job it is to figure fight scenes out. All I really need to write is FIGHT SCENE... but I don't. I write a fight scene because 'FIGHT SCENE' on its own is not storytelling. It ruins the aesthetics of the script.

I agree with some points in this discussion, disagree with other points.

An example of my disagreement would be the "bad writers don't get any interest" segment of your post, Dustin.  

Now, I've been at this for 2 - 3 years, really only got "mediocre" in 2014, kinda getting better now according to some folks' responses on my latest upload, which is "amazing" and "expertly written" according to some, which is great and all. Anyway, going off point here.  The point of my response to the "bad writers don't get interest" portion of your post brings me to this:  Am I a bad writer?

The answer: no.  I'm not a "good" writer, but I'm certainly not a "bad" writer.  

I'm somewhere in the middle caught in an endless cycle of eternal purgatory, scratching and clawing my way up some torturous hell-wall lined with the mangled remains of twisted souls (fallen screenwriters) attempting to reach the portal while demons (Hollywood producers) voraciously battle to drag me down into obscurity.

That above section is rather vivid and...disturbing, but my point is simple.

Just because we haven't had interest in our stuff YET, doesn't mean we're bad writers.  Just haven't caught that break.

We're all desperately scrambling up that hillside trying to reach the doorknob but falling just short.  Given the time, a bad writer can become a good writer, and somewhere down the line they will become a GREAT writer.  

-------------------------

J.K. Rowling for example, not a screenwriter (yet), did in fact have to wait several YEARS before anything happened with Harry Potter.  If I recall, some agent threw her manuscript in the trashcan, yeah, the highest grossing book/film franchise ever, thrown in the garbage like some recycled Syfy script.

Then it went on to break both box office and book sales records over its lifespan.

-------------------------

My point here, is you can't say a new writer is "bad".  Every writer starts somewhere on the food chain.  Some are gifted with the natural ability to storyboard concisely.  Others (like me and most) have to start at the bottom, read a dictionary, read up on "how to's" and such, then we gradually make our way to the elusive door.

So yeah, no one here is bad, heck, I'd bet the "bad" writers are just starting.  And let's be honest here, how many of us were good at this when we started?  I know I wasn't.

That's my two cents on the subject.

-Lee

You seem to be confusing screenwriting with writing. Writers will have a voice and know how to turn a sentence, how to hold people to the page. A bad writer can't do that.

There are plenty of bad writers, not just bad writers but terrible writers.

Quoted Text Just because we haven't had interest in our stuff YET, doesn't mean we're bad writers

I have never said any such thing... nor implied it. I can read a bad writer, I don't need to base it off how popular they are.

I misinterpret a lot, lol.  Happens when I join conversations and don't pay attention.  Forget my previous statement, lol.  I'm tired.

-Lee

Quoted from Dreamscale #2 - Parentheticals, also known as wrylies.  Use them as little as possible, as they are a space waster and they also irritate readers.  For the most part, they aren't going to be necessary unless you have a character speaking in a foreign language or it's important to note how someone says something.  You could easily write a feature and have zero wrylies.

I saw a recent interview with Billy Ray (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0712753/). He said a mistake young writers do is not use parentheticals. In his opinion you can use parentheticals to set the tone of your scene or story. They can be hugely effective to get across what you are trying to do with the scene and can help the writer/actor/director to unify in their visions of what the movie is. He was very much for them.

I agree with him, but you should use them wisely and watch out for overuse.

Like with everything, there are different philosophies on what you should do.

The only time I use them is when it isn't clear which character is being spoken to. Anything else is cheating. I believe it takes more skill to do everything else in the action lines. Always good to show off your skill.

I see nothing wrong with parentheticals, if they are used to bring some greater understanding to a scene. I wrote a scene where two former lovers where sharing some light back-and-forth banter. The female character made some joke about the male character who responded with "bitch". By placing "Playful" in a parenthetical before this, it made sure that the reader knew that the character was continuing on with the banter and wasn't mortally offended by the joke thrown his way.

What I hate is when they are used incorrectly or unnecessarily. My personal favourite is when "Angry" is used as a parenthetical during an argument... I mean, how many heated arguments have we seen when the participants aren't angry?

My own personal rules for parentheticals are:

1)     No more than three words, even when using a comma (to Cathy, whispered)
2)     No more than one line. So no (furiously, to Featherstonehaugh)
3)     Don’t be redundant.

After that all bets are off. That includes actions (as long as the actions can be performed during the dialogue). For example, in a poker game:

Code Dean: (throws in coins) Raise. Keith: (checks his cards) Son of a bitch.

Compared to:

Code Dean throws his coins in the pot. Dean: Raise. Keith checks his cards. Keith: Son of a bitch.

For me, the first flows a heck of a lot quicker. It also saves two lines during a simple back and forth exchange. Now if I can work an action into a previous line, I’ll do it because that would save more space. But why would I create two entire lines (one for description and one for the white space that follows) for an action that I could condense into three words and shove into a parenthetical? Far from a space waster, smartly used parentheticals can be tremendous space savers. In my opinion, any dialogue heavy script that doesn’t do this is unnecessarily bloated by at least one to two pages. And isn’t that the dream when we’re editing? To cut a couple pages from our script while changing essentially nothing?

Of course, we all have our own styles. And I would never argue that someone should change their style simply because I prefer it that way. But as long as I can read and do math, no one’s gonna convince me that the first example above is somehow objectively “wrong”.