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[bert's edit: Post #9 was actually the first post on this thread. Knucklehead Jonny deleted it by accident, then had to put it back later]
Hey Jon,
Did you get grilled on the OWC or something?
Check this out:
Randy Johnson, arguably the most dominating pitcher of the past two decades(300 wins, 4800 strikeouts, 3.3 ERA, a million CY Young's and a WS MVP), didn't get really good until he was 30. Up until then he was just okay. Had some good stuff, could strikeout people, but he was just a very average pitcher with above average strikeout numbers. And then after he turned 30 he became unhittable.
Some people just pick up things quicker than others. Conveying stories through screenwriting comes naturally to some people. To others, it takes time to develop. Hollywood is a tough town to make it comfortably in and, dude, seriously, you have a lot of time to make up ground. Write things out of your comfort zone. Try new methods. You'd be surprised what kind of things you can do if you just try. Destined to be mediocre? Ehhh. I think if you stick with it then you're bound to come up with something awesome sooner or later. Actually, I believe you wrote a pretty solid 7WC script, so what's the deal here? Solid is pretty good, man, so you can always build on that.
If you like it, do it. If other people don't like it, either give them the finger or try it a different way
No, I didn't get grilled. My script was...solid! Annoyingly, I am doing the rather arrogant thing of thinking it's better than the reviews it's getting, but there you go. I know that that isn't a very good attitude.
I don't want to make this just about me. I know I've got plenty of time to work out if this is what I actually want to do with my life (although I graduate next year, so I'd better make a decision about my next move sooner or later!). And despite the tone of my opening post, I'm not exactly lying awake at night about this; if I don't become a screenwriter, I don't become a screenwriter. I actually want to get other people's experiences on this. Don't some of you ever worry that the pros have some inate ability that can't be recreated, that's just handed out at birth?
Or, is hard work enough? Is determination, a refusal to accept 'no' as an answer, and the capacity to take onboard criticism and endlessly re-write the key? Maybe the 'mediocrity ceiling' doesn't exist at all?
EDIT: I went looking for a post by Ron Aberdeen that stuck with me once I read it, and I eventually found it.
You have hit a sore nail directly on the head, one that I believe in strongly, talent cannot be taught.
Sure ‘How To’ books help you learn the basics, the fundamentals of structure, formatting, presentation even story pace with Snyder’s ‘Beat Sheet’ and other guide lines from other authors but where do any of the books teach you how to be imaginative, where to find a writer’s voice that is instantly recognisable as yours, and how to make your screenplay entertaining in its delivery.
Even thinking up an original idea seems elusive to most writers, it is normally a rehash of concepts gone before.
The components that make a good screenplay appear obvious but in reality they are invisible to the uninitiated. Add to that the need for the script to be a commercial proposition that can attract millions of dollars to turn it from ramblings on paper to a project on screen worth hundreds of millions of dollars and you realise why so many writers fail.
You only have to watch the auditions on the X-Factor to see how far the majority of want-to-be famous performers are from the reality of the business and the requirements of the industry, but that doesn’t stop the thousands of hopefuls queuing up for the chance to show their lack of talent.
But here’s the thing, if you don’t understand the need for good structure probably in three acts, or the need for near perfect formatting and presentation you stand no chance at all.
That’s without understanding how to develop a characters arc, write memorable dialogue that is as breathtaking on the page as it will be on screen, ensure continuity of a screenplay with the impact of short concise descriptive paragraphs and deliver an exciting ride for the reader that is both enjoyable and entertaining.
All of that needs talent and that is not found in any book.
I am doing the rather arrogant thing of thinking it's better than the reviews it's getting, but there you go.
Bullshit. An arrogant writer?
If you are not defiantly arrogant -- convinced that your work is worth reading, no matter what the critics might say -- then you should consider doing something else.
You gotta be your own cheerleader. You think anybody is going to do that for you?
Can you imagine Phil starting a thread asking, "I wonder if I am any good..."
How about Balt?
If you are not convinced that you have it in you to be a good writer, then you won't be.
If you can't sell to yourself, you can't sell to anyone.
Suck it up, JonnyBoy. And get back to pounding that keyboard.
If I only wrote because I thought I could make it in Hollywood, I'd go insane. If I only wrote because I didn't think I was good at anything else, I'd shoot myself. If I only wrote because I thought it was the best way to pay the bills, I'd be homeless.
Truth is, if you're supremely talented, if you read all the screenplay books, format everything perfectly (which is impossible b/c something always contradicts something else), write the perfect screenplay, have the desire to sell your story and yourself relentlessly until you force your way into the front door... it's still a damn crapshoot.
So why do we do it?
For those moments of pure joy when we think of something brilliant, even if it's only brilliant to us. That "a-ha!" moment when a new plot point, a new scene, or a new character trait pops into our heads and makes our story ten times better than before. When the pieces start to fit, when the story starts to flow, when someone -- friend or fellow writer -- reads what we've written and says "That was really good!"
That's why I write. That's why I keep writing, until I'm good enough to "master the craft" as much as I can. Because, as maddening as it can be to write and re-write, to have your work critiqued and critisized, to hear someone expose major flaws in your story, the truth is... writing is fun. And we're all good at it, to some degree.
Bullshit. An arrogant writer? If you are not convinced that you have it in you to be a good writer, then you won't be.
If you can't sell to yourself, you can't sell to anyone.
Love you bert. It's very good to be positive/optimistic and so on, but at some point being realistic needs to be considered too.
I know what Greg was saying, but I'm more skeptical. I read a lot of scripts at SS and produced and hot newly sold ones. Is there a difference between the scripts at SS and some of these pro scripts? Most of the time there is. I just made a comment earlier today about the OWC scripts. I said some were written perfectly while they missed the mark in the story department and others had great ideas, but were not written well.
IMHO, most Hollywood scripts have a decent story and is well told. Still, there are sooooo many scripts written every year that I think for any of us to sell something is just wishful thinking. Btw, a lot of scripts that are sold never get produced anyway….
I'm not really sure what people want. Seems to me that a lot of people think/hope that they will become Hollywood writers. Their average salary is like $125K/year….that ain't much in Cali.
I have been asked by "producers" to rewrite shorts of mine for production. I always tell them no. Why? Because writers are always treated badly and asked to do slave labour for nothing. Unless I get paid, I won't do anything.
Am I weird? Sure, but I don't have this one wacky dream that I will be a Hollywood writer either. Nor would I want to be one. I write because i love to. If no one wants to read, fine. I have tons of other ideas to pursue.
Ironically, I have access to agents, but I have no good scripts to show…….
I know what Greg was saying, but I'm more skeptical. I read a lot of scripts at SS and produced and hot newly sold ones. Is there a difference between the scripts at SS and some of these pro scripts? Most of the time there is...
Wait, which part were you skeptical on? The sticking to it and developing or my fluffy optimism tonight?
There is no way to re-insert a post. We'll there might be but it's way too complicated and could easily cause the world to implode if done incorrectly so no one has tried it. Best if you just post it to the thread now and say it was the first post.
The first post, which was deleted due to excessive tiredness/carelessness/knucklehead-edness:
Quoted from Opening Post
Becoming a professional screenwriter is a devilishly tricky business; we all know that. It’s full of disappointments and frustrations. In fact, that could be said for any writer; I remember in an interview with the writer of Armored that I read recently, he advised people that if they could find anything else that could make them happy, they should do that instead, ‘cause writing isn’t very fun. In fact, often, writing sucks. We all know the feeling when you just can’t get the stuff on paper the way you want it to, when it feels as if your own thoughts are mocking you, refusing to let you grab a proper hold of them. And yet despite all this, despite the likelihood of continued setbacks and the very real possibility of ultimate failure, here we all are, trying to become screenwriters. We must all be here, ultimately, because we believe we have something to share with the world, some burning desire to tell stories that makes the suckiness worthwhile. Or, maybe we believe that we're talented enough to do this rather than a real job. That’s the only reason we can want to do this at all. Writing is 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. To make it worth it, we have to believe that the 10% is good.
Thing is, what happens if you start to doubt if you’ve actually got anything to share? After all, not everyone can be exceptional. Just because we write doesn’t automatically mean we’re good. Just because we can critique a movie and dissect a script doesn’t mean we understand how to create one ourselves. Not everyone can be exceptional; some of us have to be mediocre. What if that’s all you can be? Or, to use the word I often read in reviews of my work, ‘solid’? Sure, maybe on a good day you could be a little better than mediocre, maybe occasionally a nice phrase or line of dialogue could slip out onto the page, but what if that’s it? Could it not be possible that there’s just a ceiling, a certain level beyond which you just can’t pass?
I’m not saying these are necessarily things I think about myself. I don’t know if I’m mediocre. I think it’s probably too early to tell. But here’s what I want to know: surely every writer feels like this occasionally? Does anyone else feel like this at times, or maybe all the time? Do you ever doubt that you’re a good writer, or that you have the capacity to be? It’s a very small, over-crowded industry, and not everyone who wants to be a screenwriter can be. Seems to me you have be either lucky or exceptional to make it; if you don’t have that ‘x’ factor, it won’t happen no matter how much you want it. How do you people with perhaps a dozen screenplays not worry that you might be barking up the wrong tree? The fact is that some people HAVE to be just mediocre. How do you know that you’re not one of them?
...but at some point being realistic needs to be considered too.
Well, yeah, sure. I think most here do not put all of their eggs in the screenwriting basket.
To really get somewhere takes a witch's brew of luck, persistence, and ghastly amounts of time pursuing tenuous leads that will likely never pan out. Talent is only part of the equation.
But I stand by the heart of what I said -- even if you are only here for fun -- you need to believe you have talent -- or at least the capacity to improve.
Not that you are, I've read your work. And I'm not talking about anyone in particular either...
Nothing wrong with mediocre to be honest. A lot of badly written scripts get made and make millions of dollars. So there is hope for all of us. But as a writer that "Mediocre," shouldn't even enter into the equation.
We have to believe we have what it takes, sure there will be stones in the road but once we cross them, they become our "MILESTONES." And if we don't then we might as well find something else to do because without luck we'll never reach the promise land.
When I first started on this endeavor, I didn't want to write 100 screenplays, 50 or even 10. Just four only and that's it. I might be setting myself up for a fall and I may never get there but you know what that's okay.
But I also know... you'll never get there unless you try?
I put in a lot of blood, sweat and tears... in the best possible sense being selfish, hundred of hours with myself alone ignoring the world, developing my ideas to let them sit and collect dust.
Indeed. The average person doesn't think they are. As for arrogance, I don't think it is okay to be arrogant. After all what is arrogance but an inflated view of one's importance? There's nothing noble about that. You want to impress people? Then impress them with your deeds not your attitude. However, I can understand why you're a little perplexed by some of the reviews. I skimmed through a few threads and they seemed to be a bit top heavy with negativity. The way I see it writers shouldn't be too precious about their scripts but on the other hand critics shouldn't be too precious about their reviews.
As for what to do with your life, I knew this woman once who studied full time for two years to get her diploma in professional writing and editing and then decided to quit. When I asked her why, she said it was because she wasn't very good at it. I was blown away by her honesty and self discipline, because I know how tough it is to give up something that you've invested a lot of time and effort in. But as the saying goes "no matter how far you've gone down the wrong path, turn back." Whether or not writing is for you is only a question you can answer. But it helps if you know what you're trying to get out of it. Once you know that then you can ask yourself if it’s realistic to have that expectation.
As for arrogance, I don't think it is okay to be arrogant. After all what is arrogance but an inflated view of ones importance?
Indeed. Nothing wrong with a healthy portion of self-confidence, it's when your insecurities get the best of you that arrogance comes into play.
As far as mediocracy goes, look at the mainstream movies released last year for example. How many rose above mediocre? I mean, you can almost hear those studio execs doing a bad Gordon Gekko impersination:
"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that mediocracy, for lack of a better word, is good. Mediocracy is right, mediocracy works. Mediocracy clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the unevolutionary spirit. Thank you very much."
Whether you're barking up the wrong tree, Johnny, depends entirely on what your goals are. I can't answer that for you. All I can say is: Believe in yourself - until it's time not to believe in yourself. Then you move on and go and do great things in other fields.
Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
J Wait, which part were you skeptical on? The sticking to it and developing or my fluffy optimism tonight?
Not really skeptical to what you said, but rather how this business works. If you play baseball and you keep getting better and better people will notice, because you will become an important player to the team and they will want you. That's not how it works in the film industry...at least I don't think so.
Well, yeah, sure. I think most here do not put all of their eggs in the screenwriting basket.
To really get somewhere takes a witch's brew of luck, persistence, and ghastly amounts of time pursuing tenuous leads that will likely never pan out. Talent is only part of the equation.
But I stand by the heart of what I said -- even if you are only here for fun -- you need to believe you have talent -- or at least the capacity to improve.
Otherwise, I do not see the point.
Some people do put all their eggs in one basket.
I agree with your part about that it takes a lot of hard work and you have to believe in yourself and all that. Like Greg said "if it is to be, it's up to me". I'm a huge believer in that. However, in this particular business, there are thousands and thousand around the world, maybe even hundreds of thousand who chasing the same goal. A goal that only very few will reach. Unlike baseball, you can be a GREAT player, but it's very likely no one will ever know.
This leads me to another thing though that I'm curious about. What are the dreams of the people here? If your script was bought by a Hollywood studio, then what would happen? Will you be able to write an equally good script again...and again? Will you be writing scripts that they tell you to write? If so, what if you hate the script, could you still write it...on time and make it good? How much would you get paid? Would it be enough to make a decent living out there?
I know a couple of people that are professional writers. From what I hear, they get treated like shit all the time. Even though everything starts with a great script, writers seem to be treated like they are the least important. They get shafted all the time.
I don't know the answers, but one thing I do know, is that I've seen enough people get really depressed when the writing doesn't pan out for them. That's why it's important to be realistic too while at the same time believe in yourself.
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