A lot of TV shows are making obvious political comments as well. The last two seasons of Supergirl have basically been, “Our President is insane, help!” While I agree with the point, for me such messages work better when they are in the story but you don’t realise it. A great writer avoids in your face politics and uses subtlety. I mean, if you don’t have messages in your story your story will feel flat so you’ve got to get themes and subtext in there, but blend it all in.

The difference is if the story itself is political. West Wing, The Newsroom (which I absolutely adored) and Madame President have all been openly political but they are shows which deals with politics (and the media) as major plot points.

I disagree with just about every opinion expressed in this thread, except for:

I hate Trump.
Ghostbusters 2016 was a pretty good movie, but nothing special.

I like far more movies than I dislike. I even liked The Meg. (Nothing wrong with a fun little B movie.) 2019 had a wonderful slate of films (among the ones I was lucky enough to see).

Joker
Pet Sematary
Godzilla: King of the Monsters
Rambo: Last Blood
Countdown (surprisingly good)

The Lion King was good for the most part, but "Be Prepared" and Mufasa's death were botched. I still prefer the original.

Looking back, I saw less films this year than I thought I did. We usually see what my cousin wants to see (and his tastes can be somewhat questionable -- I bailed on the movie Midway; not exactly a beacon of taste; he actually likes The Phantom Menace and Halloween: Resurrection), and he's only allowed to see one movie a month. We don't have much disposable income anyway, so a lot of movies, we've seen On Demand or via Redbox.

There are a bunch of films I've been dying to see, but our one-movie-a-month quota doesn't really allow it (Once Upon a Time, Endgame, all of the Marvels, Terminator, Doctor Sleep, Midsommar, The Lighthouse, IT 2, Us, The Addams Family, Gemini Man, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood). I did get to see Joker and Countdown in the same month.

I want to see The Rise of Skywalker, but I haven't seen a Star Wars movie since The Force Awakens (but not for lack of trying).

Ghostbusters was good-not-great, but it certainly did not deserve the bile spewed at it. I'm looking forward to James (Jane?) Bond. I still want to see Black Christmas.

None of this perceived agenda seems to outweigh the story. I just don't see it at all. In fact, I welcome it.

Quoted from James McClung Liberal. I'll keep it broad. Make of that what you will. I will say that politics are important to me, and I'm engaged in my own way. That said, generally in agreement with folks who've posted thus far. I wouldn't say films are being killed. There're still a decent amount of filmmakers who aren't playing into this trend, and there're certainly films every now and then that can pull off a socio-political message with some semblance of tact and thoughtfulness. I would say the fact that everything is so politicized these days is definitely hurting films (and art broadly) though. Beyond that, even where there're important issues to explore, the industry at large is so hacky and cynical that they tend to fail miserably at it.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think we are seeing the revered filmmakers are giving this type of filmmaking a wide swerve, which is really kinda instructive.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley The thing I hate (Look at Ghostbusters 2016) is that they do it  and rub it in your face as if to say don't  come  see this we hate men... BUT I am your audience. Ghostbusters is made for that little boy or girl in all of us to see people fighting ghosts in a funny/cool way and your movie is telling me that this is girls only but if you say anything you're sexist. James Bond can be Jane Bond but don't do what Ghostbusters did and put up the sign outside your clubhouse saying "No men allowed" then get mad when nobody goes to see your movie. I liked the video but he's doing what so many people complain about people doing. Judging before seeing. I went into that Ghostbusters movie seeing all the negativity and did not hate it but it's nothing special... Could this be solved if studios didn't set a release date and tell the 12 writers it has to be done by this time so we can film it and do this and that and add females in the lead roles so we can tick boxes that the audience doesn't care about. This is what the internet has done to film and tv, mixed with getting old all the things once held beloved are becoming bastardized because the best idea is an old idea that has name recognition.

Haha, yeah, he's definitely read way too much into the trailer (which suits his wider points), but it's hilarious. Be curious to know if it's someone in the industry.

Quoted from ChrisBodily I disagree with just about every opinion expressed in this thread, except for: I hate Trump. Ghostbusters 2016 was a pretty good movie, but nothing special. I like far more movies than I dislike. I even liked The Meg. (Nothing wrong with a fun little B movie.) 2019 had a wonderful slate of films (among the ones I was lucky enough to see). Joker Pet Sematary Godzilla: King of the Monsters Rambo: Last Blood Countdown (surprisingly good) The Lion King was good for the most part, but "Be Prepared" and Mufasa's death were botched. I still prefer the original. Looking back, I saw less films this year than I thought I did. We usually see what my cousin wants to see (and his tastes can be somewhat questionable -- I bailed on the movie Midway; not exactly a beacon of taste; he actually likes The Phantom Menace and Halloween: Resurrection), and he's only allowed to see one movie a month. We don't have much disposable income anyway, so a lot of movies, we've seen On Demand or via Redbox. There are a bunch of films I've been dying to see, but our one-movie-a-month quota doesn't really allow it (Once Upon a Time, Endgame, all of the Marvels, Terminator, Doctor Sleep, Midsommar, The Lighthouse, IT 2, Us, The Addams Family, Gemini Man, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood). I did get to see Joker and Countdown in the same month. I want to see The Rise of Skywalker, but I haven't seen a Star Wars movie since The Force Awakens (but not for lack of trying). Ghostbusters was good-not-great, but it certainly did not deserve the bile spewed at it. I'm looking forward to James (Jane?) Bond. I still want to see Black Christmas. None of this perceived agenda seems to outweigh the story. I just don't see it at all. In fact, I welcome it.

Going to see Black Christmas this evening - it's been panned, but I love this kind of fare! We shall see.

Out of interest, why do you disagree with the opinions? Do you think film hasn't taken an overtly political turn? Not saying that's wrong, if so, just curious as to your thinking.

How was Black Christmas, Andrew??

My take: film isn't being killed by politics, it's being killed by pandering. That the content of the pandering happens to be left "politics" is neither here nor there. Don't blame the politics, blame an industry that's currently tipped too far towards business on the business-art spectrum and a world where political identity is a targetable consumer trait.

The Critical Drinker video is pretty content-free, but the main thing I'm getting from it is that this guy doesn't realize that 1. Bond movies were always hollow wish fulfilment and 2. masculine identity won't always be defined by mid-20th-century tropes.

Consumer culture in general has taken a superficially leftist turn. There's more feel-good pandering about marginalized people in Coke ads, there's more feel-good pandering about marginalized people in movies. Whatever -- they'll all be onto something else next. Good movies will always be good on their own merits in a way that defies the sort of watered-down pop analysis that Critical Drinker offers. Mad Max: Fury Road did something new, moving the story away from Max just like Drinker's complaining about with Bond, and that movie was an incredible continuation of the franchise. And tons of movies this year that probably got produced because their content appears trendily progressive -- The Farewell, Booksmart, For Sama, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Chained For Life, heck, even the much-hated Rian Johnson's new one Knives Out, etc. etc. -- are actually just really good movies whose pleasures have nothing to do with cheap political affirmations.

Quoted from Heretic My take: film isn't being killed by politics, it's being killed by pandering. That the content of the pandering happens to be left "politics" is neither here nor there. Don't blame the politics, blame an industry that's currently tipped too far towards business on the business-art spectrum and a world where political identity is a targetable consumer trait.

Quoted from Grandma Bear I'm not so sure it's all about politics and pushing an agenda as it is about money.

I still have a big problem explaining myself in text, but my comment was trying to say basically the same thing.  

It's so easy for cisgendered patriarchs to say the work is all done and we just need to move on now, but as a gender queer Afro-American woman of Caucasian ethnicity believe me when I say we have a long way to go. In fact just today, some disgusting heterosexual cis white man (obviously privileged) told me I look like a "fucking ugly clown" plus other things!

Quoted from Heretic How was Black Christmas, Andrew?? My take: film isn't being killed by politics, it's being killed by pandering. That the content of the pandering happens to be left "politics" is neither here nor there. Don't blame the politics, blame an industry that's currently tipped too far towards business on the business-art spectrum and a world where political identity is a targetable consumer trait. The Critical Drinker video is pretty content-free, but the main thing I'm getting from it is that this guy doesn't realize that 1. Bond movies were always hollow wish fulfilment and 2. masculine identity won't always be defined by mid-20th-century tropes. Consumer culture in general has taken a superficially leftist turn. There's more feel-good pandering about marginalized people in Coke ads, there's more feel-good pandering about marginalized people in movies. Whatever -- they'll all be onto something else next. Good movies will always be good on their own merits in a way that defies the sort of watered-down pop analysis that Critical Drinker offers. Mad Max: Fury Road did something new, moving the story away from Max just like Drinker's complaining about with Bond, and that movie was an incredible continuation of the franchise. And tons of movies this year that probably got produced because their content appears trendily progressive -- The Farewell, Booksmart, For Sama, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Chained For Life, heck, even the much-hated Rian Johnson's new one Knives Out, etc. etc. -- are actually just really good movies whose pleasures have nothing to do with cheap political affirmations.

I think it's a good point re: pandering > politics. We probably diverge on the extent to which this pandering is based on business > belief. My feeling is that whilst the scaffolding holding up the art (the money and the studios) is less enamoured by the politics than by the potential $ returns, the filmmakers themselves are avowed believers in the ideology of intersectionalism / identity politics / whatever other label they wish to use, or others like myself may use pejoratively!

My feeling on this type of 'radical' and (misnomer pending) 'progressive' movement is they evoke the same contempt in me as the Tea Party did; ideologues with axes to grind who co-opt general grievance to push their politics. This type of populism just doesn't sit well with me, mainly because it obscures the real issues, and delays required action to implement the practical solutions which could alleviate inequalities, for example. The difference between now and the Tea Party era is that film wasn't polluted with the preaching, evangelising and contempt for story with a slew of Tea Party themed movies. If it had, I would've been posting the same kidn fo frustration. That's the crux of my complaint, really.

It's an interesting comparison re: Mad Max; obviously I don't know CD's views on this, but I suspect it would be along the lines of an organic, story-led change versus the better framed pandering you mention. What we are seeing in the latter (and more broadly) is an attempt to imbue the story - explicitly - with social justice themes that take precedence over the art of telling the story in a way that appeals to people on an emotional level. What perfectly captures the ignorance of the shift towards a 'progressive' slant is Brie Larson's 'this wasn't made for you', which is about as far removed from the essence of filmmaking as I can imagine.

I would recommend giving CD's videos a fuller look (assuming, of course, you haven't already), because whilst it's clearly a rallying cry against the spectre of 'progressive' movies scrapping the unspoken bargain between film and audience of an appeal to place story front and centre, CD shouldn't be unfairly characterised as a bit of a retrograde throwback to a macho, sexist - and probably racist - caricature that defines so much of the messaging towards anyone critical of the social justice movement.

In my own view, there should absolutely be space in film catering for progressive causes, but that we need more talent to realise those visions, and we shouldn't stray from the need to keep story the bedrock of any production, and not an incidental ingredient to push a political message.

As for Black Christmas, it's just a very poor film. Perhaps it was butchered in the edit, or perhaps the script just wasn't up to it, but its barely decipherable even within the confines of its own story. The messaging does, at times, subvert the core feminist themes, taking some time to explore the degree to which ideological dogma can inhibit a movement, but it's cocooned in a movie that doesn't even really have a clear message on feminism, and a curious relationship to visuals that may symbolise what themes it is trying to tease out.

There is no doubt, however, that much of the criticism is down to reactive weirdos getting all stressed out that a movie would dare push a feminist message, and in my view, this regressive attitude is as unwelcome in the world of film as the issue I raised with the post itself.

Quoted from Heretic Whatever -- they'll all be onto something else next.

This, I hope, is true, and something I seriously look forward to!

Gonna have to disagree with you on why there is backlash towards Black Christmas, Andrew.

SPOILERS

The actual motive for the killers in the remake is, fuckin' get this, toxic masculinity! Where the Hell is the face palm emoji at?

Just read this interview with the director of the remake. It's completely insane that Blumhouse actually greenlit this film. The director literally says that the underlying message in the film is that "Men aren't born hating women, they are taught to hate women." What the fuck is that?

https://bloody-disgusting.com/.....gest-twist-spoilers/

Quoted from Andrew We probably diverge on the extent to which this pandering is based on business > belief. My feeling is that whilst the scaffolding holding up the art (the money and the studios) is less enamoured by the politics than by the potential $ returns, the filmmakers themselves are avowed believers in the ideology of intersectionalism / identity politics / whatever other label they wish to use

Makes sense! I know a lot of filmmakers whose progressive ideologies are, I suspect, a bit cynically held, but I'm sure there are true believers everywhere too. That said, to take a concrete example, if you want to get a feature funded here in Canada, you're relying on a few fairly similar funding organizations, and those organizations always have buzzwords on their minds, and right now those buzzwords are progressive ones. This happens not because they're lefties, but because they're bureaucrats who wouldn't otherwise know how to pick projects. But the cost of doing business is hitting some of those buzzwords, even if nobody on either side of the equation cares.

Quoted from Andrew The difference between now and the Tea Party era is that film wasn't polluted with the preaching, evangelising and contempt for story with a slew of Tea Party themed movies.

Ha, you can always check out Unplanned, God's Not Dead, Persecuted, The Reliant, etc. They're trying (and a few people are getting rich)!

Quoted from Andrew What we are seeing in the latter (and more broadly) is an attempt to imbue the story - explicitly - with social justice themes that take precedence over the art of telling the story in a way that appeals to people on an emotional level.

I think this is the crux of our disagreement, actually. I don't see that there's any meaningful way to discern when social justice themes have "taken precedence over" standard storytelling. I don't really even know what the claim is -- after all, the use of social justice themes is presumably meant to appeal on an emotional level in the same way that other writing techniques are used to appeal on an emotional level. To take Bond as the example, Critical Drinker seems to be implying that the story of No Time to Die would be completely different if one writer hadn't come in and changed it to be all about a black woman. But really, the idea makes perfect sense for Craig's final outing: a tired Bond, increasingly out of place in the world, returns to find himself in constant conflict with a new agent who has a new way of doing things. That's a perfectly fine approach, even when we consider it altogether without a social justice lens. How can one determine when social justice has taken precedence?

Quoted from Andrew What perfectly captures the ignorance of the shift towards a 'progressive' slant is Brie Larson's 'this wasn't made for you', which is about as far removed from the essence of filmmaking as I can imagine.

This is far removed from the essence of filmmaking because it's marketing. Corporate progressivism is shitty because corporate everything is shitty.

Quoted from Andrew CD shouldn't be unfairly characterised as a bit of a retrograde throwback to a macho, sexist - and probably racist - caricature that defines so much of the messaging towards anyone critical of the social justice movement.

I've only seen a couple videos of his. To be honest, what stood out to me in this one came somewhere around the midpoint -- he says that Bond is being sidelined in his own movie, then cuts to a picture of Waller-Bridge and says, "More stellar work from Phoebe Waller-Bridge then..." This dude looked at a trailer made by a marketing department for a movie with five co-writers from a franchise that's been overseen by the same people for decades and decided to place all blame on the sole female writer. I concluded from this that he is un-rigorous and a douche, but that's all, and that's fine. And my comment about masculinity was just in response to him talking about Bond's "classic masculinity" or something -- I forget the phrase -- because that seems to me a silly argument to make.

Quoted from Andrew As for Black Christmas, it's just a very poor film. Perhaps it was butchered in the edit, or perhaps the script just wasn't up to it, but its barely decipherable even within the confines of its own story.

Damn. I rewatched the 2006 (?) remake in anticipation and found that I enjoyed it more on a re-visit. Might skip the new one altogether then. Thanks!

Quoted from Heretic I think this is the crux of our disagreement, actually. I don't see that there's any meaningful way to discern when social justice themes have "taken precedence over" standard storytelling. I don't really even know what the claim is -- after all, the use of social justice themes is presumably meant to appeal on an emotional level in the same way that other writing techniques are used to appeal on an emotional level. To take Bond as the example, Critical Drinker seems to be implying that the story of No Time to Die would be completely different if one writer hadn't come in and changed it to be all about a black woman. But really, the idea makes perfect sense for Craig's final outing: a tired Bond, increasingly out of place in the world, returns to find himself in constant conflict with a new agent who has a new way of doing things. That's a perfectly fine approach, even when we consider it altogether without a social justice lens. How can one determine when social justice has taken precedence?

I guess a better way for me to describe it is the theme taking over the story. So, for example, I recently watched Last Christmas, and it's all theme; the story is redundant next to pushing the notion of representation, economic inequality, the supposed xenophobia and racism of Brexiteers, and the sweeping sense that the big evil is the white man, hence a comic lack of representation of white men in the movie, unless it is to present them as dumb, racist and sexist. The story takes a backseat to all this, the tinsel to a disgustingly ugly Christmas tree. It's not a movie; it's a diatribe of a documentary awkwardly recast as a movie. It's an ugly spectacle.

If you're exploring themes on immigration in film, it's far more interesting to seek to subvert the prevailing notions, to critically analyse why views are held, and how that can manifest within a bold, challenging story. Exploring the complexities of a topic, so again for example, on immigration, that might involve looking at xenophobia and racism, but also assimilation. These people who are so against immigration, are they actually white supremacists (and hell, what about non-whites sharing these views), or you know, are they people who have a story to tell, however much we may disagree with their conclusions personally. That's what great filmmakers do. Hacks make films like Last Christmas.

So that's really where I'm coming from with politics taking precedence over story.

Quoted from Heretic This is far removed from the essence of filmmaking because it's marketing. Corporate progressivism is shitty because corporate everything is shitty.

I do disagree with that. The problem is Larson's comment was instructive on how these people view the world, and how their films are made for groups of people who share their views. That goes against every liberal principle in my bones, and is very distinct from making, say, a horror movie with horror fans in mind. This ugly, ignorant attitude exemplified by Larson's comment should really be shocking, but as societies we are accepting of one level of intolerance whilst hypocritically criticising other forms. For me, movies should be made for rednecks in middle America as much as it is for urban dwellers in Brooklyn, or Brexiteers in northern England as it is for metropolitan elites in London. That's the humanity binding us, and is at the root of actually progressive thinking.

Quoted from Heretic Damn. I rewatched the 2006 (?) remake in anticipation and found that I enjoyed it more on a re-visit. Might skip the new one altogether then. Thanks!

I'd say definitely give it a go, as much for I'd be super keen to hear your views as actually sating your own curiosity for it!

As ever, man, enjoying the chat Always good to hear your thoughts as it makes me examine my own views and gives me plenty food for thought.

Quoted from Andrew I guess a better way for me to describe it is the theme taking over the story. So, for example, I recently watched Last Christmas, and it's all theme; the story is redundant next to pushing the notion of representation, economic inequality, the supposed xenophobia and racism of Brexiteers, and the sweeping sense that the big evil is the white man, hence a comic lack of representation of white men in the movie, unless it is to present them as dumb, racist and sexist. The story takes a backseat to all this, the tinsel to a disgustingly ugly Christmas tree. It's not a movie; it's a diatribe of a documentary awkwardly recast as a movie. It's an ugly spectacle.

Well your first problem was watching Last Christmas, you maniac But seriously, this is what I think most big budget movies are now: a collection of scenes that the studio/advertisers/star performers want to be in there, pieced together on a formula skeleton without regard for story (as I understand the word story). To me that problem isn't unique to movies that play to "progressive" audiences: basically all of the Disney movies, other franchise movies, big action movies, etc. aren't as concerned with a coherent story as they are with including all the individual elements that they think will get people to buy a ticket. To me, some condescending scene where all the female superheroes line up is the same as some condescending scene where Dwayne Johnson defeats technology with gritty old-fashioned man biceps is the same as some condescending scene where Yoda is super cute as a baby or whatever. It's selling little oxytocin bursts because making real movies is hard.

The other thing I always see missing from this argument: in sum, did Last Christmas present any sort of coherent viewpoint? And if not, isn't that relevant? I haven't seen it, but I have seen for example Captain Marvel--which was decried for being hyper feminist or whatever by people who don't know an Air Force ad when they see one--and Captain Marvel's "feminist messaging" didn't make any sense whatsoever. I'd find the argument of thinly veiled propaganda more convincing if the supposed propaganda presented a clear message, but it never really seems to amount to much more than a few random #bossgirl quips and an evil white guy. (Edit: actually I thought the most recent Robin Hood was a good example of a movie that was actually clear, coherent, leftist propaganda from start to finish, which I liked about it, similar to something like Death Wish)

Final question: I'm a big fan of the aggressively right-wing crime flicks of the 70s and 80s, like Dirty Harry and Death Wish (and even their rare contemporary descendants, like Peppermint and London Has Fallen). But the gratuitous political messaging isn't as annoying to me there. Are these things more grating when they come from "your side," do you suppose?

Quoted from Andrew I do disagree with that. The problem is Larson's comment was instructive on how these people view the world, and how their films are made for groups of people who share their views. That goes against every liberal principle in my bones, and is very distinct from making, say, a horror movie with horror fans in mind. This ugly, ignorant attitude exemplified by Larson's comment should really be shocking, but as societies we are accepting of one level of intolerance whilst hypocritically criticising other forms. For me, movies should be made for rednecks in middle America as much as it is for urban dwellers in Brooklyn, or Brexiteers in northern England as it is for metropolitan elites in London. That's the humanity binding us, and is at the root of actually progressive thinking.

Wanted to say that I do agree with all of this -- though I think your views are gonna conflict with financial interests a little bit... All I meant, actually, was that I think Larson's comment was just part of a hugely cynical marketing campaign that, like everything else these days, recognized the importance of creating outrage. The entire "political" divide over these shitty movies is a marketing ploy straight out of the Coke v. Pepsi playbook, as far as I'm concerned. But I agree with what you're saying about the sentiment being expressed, definitely.

And yes, good to talk/argue, haha. I'm sure I'll end up seeing both Last Christmas and Black Christmas despite myself, so I'll be sure to weigh in on those if/when that happens...

(But the next cinema outing is Cats for sure. "Cinematic catastrophe" is one of my favourite subgenres.)

Quoted from Zack SPOILERS The director literally says that the underlying message in the film is that "Men aren't born hating women, they are taught to hate women." What the fuck is that?

Honest question: which part of this do you take issue with? The message itself, the fact that it's being used as the theme of a movie, or something else?

Quoted from Heretic Honest question: which part of this do you take issue with? The message itself, the fact that it's being used as the theme of a movie, or something else?

The message itself. It's insulting. I was raised by a single mother. I respect women. It's flat out foolish to label all men as "woman-haters" who need to be taught not to hate. Who wouldn't find this message insulting?

The fact that they slapped the Black Christmas name of this social justice flick is disrespectful to the original film.