Subconscious by Kim Britt (screen_dreamer) - Drama - Doubly cursed with a forgotten past and premonitions of impending tragedy, an ex-cop recovering from a head trauma struggles to distinguish dreams from reality as he races to save the life of a woman he barely remembers but just may love. 96 pages - pdf, format

I'll just say it: the logline does not make me want to read this.

I appreciate your honesty. I've been struggling with the logline for a while now. Hopefully someone will give it a shot and/or suggest a better logline.

The logline tells us only that the main character has bad dreams caused by an NDE, the rest is unclear. Is he having premonitions of the future relating to others (ala The Dead Zone), or his own. And if there is some unresolved issue from his past, you should state what it is and not just hint at something. So I agree with the poster above that the logline doesn't work.

I read the first ten pages, and found some problems. When you're experiencing a dream, you don't necessarily know it's a dream until you wake up, so by putting DREAM in the slugline you kill any suspenseful impact the opening might have for the reader b/c we know it's all just a dream and doesn't really matter, and we're just waiting for the real story to begin.

Next we open in a psych session, a fairly typical way to indicate that a person is disturbed and seeking help. But the clunky banter that follows is unnecessry and "on the nose." Is it vital to the story that he needs to smoke, or can all that be removed and just cut right to the meat of the scene -- which I'm not really clear on either. The twist is that the shrink is his brother, but the scene as a whole doesn't reveal anything, other than what we already know from the opening, that James has bad dreams. I don't know if his brother's role continues in the story or if it's vital that the two are related. If the answer is no, then the entire scene can be thrown out.

Then he goes home, goes to bed, has another bad dream and the next day seeks out the home where the dream happened, and meets the deaf woman that lives there, along with her sister who helps out. The conversation that follows is flat and reveals little. We're nine pages in, and the story feels like it isn't going anywhere. the wheels are spinning, but there's no build up of suspense or intrigue. And on the whole feels like another mystery/suspense/thriller/possible supernatural boilerplate.

On the positive side, unlike many that get posted here, the script looks like it was formatted properly, and you have a strong grasp of the technical side, i.e. keeping the exposition concise, and the scenes short, and no glaring typos or misspellings, so nice job there. I can't comment any more b/c this is where I stopped reading, and don't know enough about your story to try and help with the logline. If you want to summarize your story, maybe we can be of more help, otherwise keep at it, and best of luck.

John thanks for the feedback. I originally didn't have dream/flashback in the sluglines but I received several peer reviews where the reviewer suggested adding it in the avoid confusion, so I did.

James plays a rather important role in the remainder of the script and I felt it was necessary to include him early on. As for Nolan's smoking, it's a sort of character tic that continues on throughout the script, along with his overuse of caffeine to keep from sleeping and therefore having more dreams.

I'll try to post a short synopsis later in the hopes of getting more help with the logline.

I sent the script for coverage and here is the logline the analyst provided:

A man recovering from the murder of his family starts having visions of other people’s deaths. Can he do anything to change them, or is there more to them than he realizes?

Kimberley, hi. Thanks for the opportunity to read your script.

Right off the bat, let me congratulate you on the craft displayed in this screenplay, especially in the dialogue, and the urgency with which you move the story along.

I'm a sucker for stories examining parallel levels of 'reality', introduced to us as readers or filmgoers through a character absolutely certain that what he sees happening in his dreams/visions is about to play out in the real world.

And what that does to him or her in dealing with the responsibility that attaches to these 'previews', when the character can no longer deny that these events WILL occur, and that people are going to be in danger, possibly life-threatening danger.

You've given Nolan this dilemma to face, and you've given him the even greater hurdle that convincing others he's seen very bad things coming is almost impossible - because for them to accept his warnings is to accept a whole lot else besides, not least of all that anyone, anyone at all, can see into the future.

So, you've worked Nolan's earlier retreat into denial and subsequent enforced realisation that he cannot escape seeing what is to come very well.

Similarly so the refusal of others to believe, especially those who know him well, that he is truly capable of foreseeing events, not just having extreme psychological reactions to the human tragedy and physical trauma in his recent life.

These 'building blocks' of the story are well-crafted, and offer a strong foundation for the rest of the story.

However, once that construction begins, things become a little hazy for me.

Is Nolan truly foreseeing events? They play out precisely as he sees them, right down to the addresses of houses and the dresses on little girls falling to their death. Such precognitive accuracy DOES speak more of a sharp-edged memory rather than 'a foreseeing with some timelag' between vision and reality. Perhaps this is where the logline you say you are having difficulty with reveals the core difficulty in the script - are we observing past events from a character's life, or events to come in it? (Or something else altogether - more on this later.)

My reading of the script suggests nothing other than real time moving forwards, with Nolan's flashbacks giving us insights into why he is the man he is now, and his dreams harrying him with the inescapable fates of others associated with him, that are yet to eventuate,

In this reading, I struggle to accept the accuracy of Nolan's foreknowledge because to be so acute to character's clothes, cars, etc., in a future situation, when he has never seen them before, asserts that he does have absolutely precise visions of what is to come. If we are convinced of this, then so should he be, and thus the occasions when he avoids responsibility in warning characters make him appear cruel. Everything else we see of Nolan tells us he's in pain, that he's angry, that he's confused, but not that he is gratuitously cruel.

So, are we observing as we join in on Nolan's journey, the past or his present with glimpses into the future? If this story-shaping decision, perhaps, is more clearly established by you, then the reader/audience can hold onto another foundation in the story as strong as those you've achieved so well in characterisation and dialogue.

However, we are reading the current draft, and in this one, my greatest problem is uncertainty about what we are being told. Which is where my comment above, that this story's dealing with time might be "something else altogether", comes into play.

If I am reading it correctly, all of the film up until Jody says "I think he's waking up" five pages from script's end, that is, Pages 1 to 90, has played out in Nolan's mind while he was in a coma. The grieving, the revenge crimes, the encounters with family and workmates, all has been in his head. If this is so... fine. (Apart from anything else, it allows for Nolan's dreams to be so acutely accurate to what he then sees 'for real', because he's made it ALL up.)

Fine. Except IF this IS so, my opinion only, it just comes from a little too far out of left field in one big gulp for the script's reader/film's audience five minutes before the film concludes.

I would recommend a couple of short 'seeding scenes' earlier in the film, things in the hospital room half-glimpsed or heard as POV's by an unrevealed Nolan that are, in themselves, tantalising mysteries to both him and the audience, but are items or sounds recognised by both him and the audience when he does fully emerge from coma.

So the audience can then 'say', "Oh, that's what that was about", and, in 'getting' that, also more clearly 'get' that we've been in Nolan's imagined world all this time, except for those couple of leaks-in from reality when he momentarily surfaced from deep coma. I'm not saying labor this point from Page 1 - 'he's in hospital, unconscious, this is all happening between his ears where a bullet recently lodged' - I'm saying give the audience something that they know is a clue, but can't quite place it's significance, until the complete mystery is revealed.

These glimpses from the depths of coma could 'occur' woven into the in-coma-unfolding top story. An out of focus figure glimpsed in the hospital room becomes a figure in the coma tale who sharpens into Nolan's recognition from being out of focus, for instance.

Now, if I've totally misread those last five pages, and Nolan does die on the bank of the lake after being dragged from the back seat of Annavay's submerged car, then I am truly lost and confused by the ending. In fact, if the whole film doesn't happen in Nolan's head until the moment he wakes up in that hospital room, it becomes such a different story for me that I would need to write a whole different critique here.

So, I'm going to bail out here for the moment, Kimberley, and look forward to you clarifying for me whether I've got things somewhere close to 'right' or not.

Thanks again for the opportunity to read your screenplay, be introduced to your characters, and perhaps???, enjoy a little peek into your mind.

Michael

Hi Kim,

Haven't posted on here in a while...

Took the time to read this and it's, by far, the best written piece of work I've seen!   One of the breeziest reads I've ever experienced.

That being said, I was a little bummed-out by the ending -- SPOILER -- which turns out to be, basically the "it was all a dream" device.  It seems kind of like a Charles Dickens "Christmas Carol" tale in that, Nolan is offered a glimpse into the future via this gunshot to the head about how he might ruin his life, only to "wake up" and decide to make a different choice... the right choice.  I may have that wrong but that's the way I saw it.  I suppose that's the problem with this script, the story's a little muddled and ill-defined.  In some ways, it felt a little too, small-scale, is the best way I can describe it -- not enough happening.  And didn't seem, for some reason, worthy of the big screen, instead feeling more like a TV movie.  I suppose I just wanted MORE -- and definitely more in the way of an explanation of the ending.

Regardless, as I've said, the writing on display here is top notch, one of the reasons I wanted the script to go on for longer -- I would have been quite content to read up to page 120!

Yeah, I can see the problem you've been having with your logline, and once again, I think this has to do with the story being a little too ill-defined.  I mean, the main reason and decided to read this in the first place was because of the sci-fi undertones present in the log.  Even the new log provided by the analyst says the same thing, yet still, it doesn't seem to be quite truthful to the script.

You wanna know what I think, and this is purely just my opinion?  Forget about trying to change the log to fit the story -- change the story to fit the LOG!  Make the story BIGGER -- give it some grandiose, scale-up the danger and intensity and make it a little more cinematic.  Then pull it out the drama section and upgrade it to the sci-fi section!  Because as it stands, I don't think the characters or themes are strong enough for the story to be classed as a straight drama.  Maybe "strong enough" is a poor choice of words -- the characters ARE strong, it's just, the story don't fit this genre.  Just my opinion.

Compliments once again on your writing.  You have exceptional ability.

Paul

The logline is rather bland. How about:
"He survives a bullet to the brain to find he may be a killer. Can Nolan discover the truth behind his terrifyingly prophetic dreams - or is he doomed to kill again?"

A synopsis would be good but should have been done earlier as it clarifies essential points. As does a good logline. But you do not have to consider your plot as set in stone; as suggested, reform your plot as necessary.

I enjoyed reading this through. It has good characters and plot, though as said, confusing at times. It is slow going to start but the pace towards the end is well handled.

Some confusion of plot, at least in my mind, arises on P82.
INT. PICK-UP TRUCK (MOVING) - NIGHT
BENSON (V.O.) I was trying...

Next slugline should surely indicate the past?
INT. POLICE STATION - CORRIDOR - DAY
then return to
INT. PICK-UP TRUCK (MOVING) - NIGHT

There are typo's but the writing is good. However there are a few instances where I thought it could be improved.

P83 'Annavay drives, vision clouded...' - 'blurred' would be more apt.

P84 '...enormous LAKE, it’s murky waters...' A lake that is 'turbulent' has no depth, I suggest: '...LAKE, its surface lashed with rain.' If you keep it, correct the typo 'it's'.

P84 '...urgent determination plastered across his face.'  I suggest '...urgency on his rainstreaked face.'

P86 (Switch Nolan back to his truck!)

P86 INT. BACK ROAD - NIGHT - Should be EXT.

P87 squirms would be better than 'scurries'

P88 panic rather than 'conviction'

At least the above demonstrates I read your script closely. Good luck with it.

Hey Kimberly Britt.  Great name, BTW...reminds me of 2 ex-girlfriends...guess what their names were?  HaHa!  Great screen name as well, sounds a bit like mine.

Anyway, enough small talk.  I read the first few pages and although I was really impressed with what I did read, I just don't have the time right now for a full read and review...but hopefully I'll get back to it in the near future.

A couple things I do want to bring up...

I really like your opening and setup.  Writing is crisp and pretty well done.  Dialogue and characters are also well done.  Like how you let us know that the two are brothers.  Like the ashtray/paperweight stuff, and just generally like the believable dialogue between them.  Well done.

I read about the conflicting ideas on labeling your Dreams, and have my own take on it.  IMO, you definitely do need to make us aware that we're in a dream, just like you do with a Flashback in a written script (unlike a filmed version, where we have to assume based on what we're seeing).  It may "give away" the illusion, but it's necessary IMO.  I'd personally handle it just like you would a Flashback, but a bit differently than you chose to here.  Here's what I'd do...

BEGIN DREAM:

INT. YOUNG WOMAN'S HOME

Blah, blah, blah...

END DREAM.

NEXT SLUG

I personally don't like when Slugs have Flashback or Dream or whatever within them, as they really aren't part of the Slug itself.  Also, you may have exact Slugs that take place within and outside of a dream, and by doing it the way I recommended, you won't have additional Slugs showing up, when you run a scene report, like you would if you have Dream or Flashback inside the actual Slug.  I also find it cleaner and easier to follow.  Just an idea.

The other issue I want to comment on is your logline.  Now, first of all, I'll admit, loglines are not my forte...far from it actually. But, I think I see why you're having trouble with this one, based on reading the comments from those who have read the script.  I think the main problem is much the same as I had/still have on my Fade to White script.  You've got a major twist that you're trying to conceal and it makes writing an effective logline very difficult because of it.  You don't want to give anything away, but you still want to write something that draws readers in and also stay true to your actual plot/story.  It's a fine line in not spoiling anything and still being true to what you do want to divulge.

I don't think your present logline is too bad at all.  For me, it's engaging and hints at a number of things I want to find out.  I don't like the log you received through coverage, but hey, what do I know?

Anyway, looks like a solid effort here.  Hope this helps a bit and I'll try to return in the future for a full read.

Take care.

Hey Kim, it has been a while since I signed on. I'm glad you posted a new script. I enjoy reading your stuff. This script was awesome! I love the flow, and the story. All of your stories are very character driven. I find that writing compelling character conflicts is not easy thing to do. Also, you managed several twists that I didn't see coming, and I can usually spot the obvious right away.
The dialogue was great too. I'm a sucker for that. Sometimes when I write dialogue, it seems contrived and a bit out of date, if that makes sense.
Loved this one. I think it's your best
  

Quoted from Dreamscale Hey Kimberly Britt.  Great name, BTW...reminds me of 2 ex-girlfriends...guess what their names were?  HaHa!  Great screen name as well, sounds a bit like mine. Anyway, enough small talk.  I read the first few pages and although I was really impressed with what I did read, I just don't have the time right now for a full read and review...but hopefully I'll get back to it in the near future. A couple things I do want to bring up... I really like your opening and setup.  Writing is crisp and pretty well done.  Dialogue and characters are also well done.  Like how you let us know that the two are brothers.  Like the ashtray/paperweight stuff, and just generally like the believable dialogue between them.  Well done. I read about the conflicting ideas on labeling your Dreams, and have my own take on it.  IMO, you definitely do need to make us aware that we're in a dream, just like you do with a Flashback in a written script (unlike a filmed version, where we have to assume based on what we're seeing).  It may "give away" the illusion, but it's necessary IMO.  I'd personally handle it just like you would a Flashback, but a bit differently than you chose to here.  Here's what I'd do... BEGIN DREAM: INT. YOUNG WOMAN'S HOME Blah, blah, blah... END DREAM. NEXT SLUG I personally don't like when Slugs have Flashback or Dream or whatever within them, as they really aren't part of the Slug itself.  Also, you may have exact Slugs that take place within and outside of a dream, and by doing it the way I recommended, you won't have additional Slugs showing up, when you run a scene report, like you would if you have Dream or Flashback inside the actual Slug.  I also find it cleaner and easier to follow.  Just an idea. The other issue I want to comment on is your logline.  Now, first of all, I'll admit, loglines are not my forte...far from it actually. But, I think I see why you're having trouble with this one, based on reading the comments from those who have read the script.  I think the main problem is much the same as I had/still have on my Fade to White script.  You've got a major twist that you're trying to conceal and it makes writing an effective logline very difficult because of it.  You don't want to give anything away, but you still want to write something that draws readers in and also stay true to your actual plot/story.  It's a fine line in not spoiling anything and still being true to what you do want to divulge. I don't think your present logline is too bad at all.  For me, it's engaging and hints at a number of things I want to find out.  I don't like the log you received through coverage, but hey, what do I know? Anyway, looks like a solid effort here.  Hope this helps a bit and I'll try to return in the future for a full read. Take care.

Jeff, the goal is to try and help Kimberely, not hit on her. And one could ignore the ham-fisted attempts at flirting, if you weren't giving her bad advice as well. First, her original logline is not a very good one, and you're not doing her any favors by telling her it is.

"When a near death experience triggers terrifying dreams of death, a man stuggles to determine if they are a warning for the future or clues to his past."

Maybe you might be intrigued, but I think most would find it vague and unsatisfying. And the reader's suggested logline is better in that it provides more details. It's no longer just some unidentified 'near death experience' he's suffered, the dude's family was murdered! See the difference? It tells us that he's someone torn by the tragic loss of his loved ones and the psychological wounds one carries from such an event. Next, the reader's logline reveals he's having visions of other people's deaths and this becomes his central struggle: figuring out if there's anything he can do to prevent them, or if there's some deeper mystery at work. Again, this is something that is not identified in Kim's original logline. The second logline gives us a clearer picture of who the protagonist is, and what he's after.

Second, whether you identify a scene as a dream sequence from the outset, depends on what purpose you want it to serve. Obviously, if we know that something is all a dream, it diminishes its impact, because the suggestion itself removes us from reality, but it does hint at something deeper and mysterious b/c dreams are understood to be a portent. So the question for Kimberely is: what's the purpose of that scene? Do you want it to be a strong visual opening hook to jar the audience, or something that suggests mystery. It appears to be straddling the two, and I think you have to go with one or the other.

Lastly, in reading some of the responses above, if this story ends with the "it was all a dream" ending, you may want to keep in mind that people don't like that shit. And if you do decide to use it, you'd better have a good reason for doing so. To quote an exchange from Family Guy:

Quoted Text All Just A Dream Brian: So, what you're saying is that what you experienced in the simulation didn't really happen, or even matter? Stewie: Yes, that's correct. Brian: So, it was sorta like a dream? Stewie: No, it was a simulation. Brian: Yes, but, theoretically, if someone watched the events of that simulation from start to finish, only to find out that none of it really happened, I mean... you don't think, that would, j— be just like a giant middle finger to them? Stewie: Well, hopefully, they would have enjoyed the ride. Brian: I don't know, man. I think you'd piss a lot of people off that way. — Family Guy, "Lois Kills Stewie"

Thanks so much for the great advice here, John C…I had no clue SS was a site in which writers try to help other writers.  Thanks so much for setting me straight.  I was really confused…NOT!

Dude, WTF is this horseshit about?

If you seriously think I or anyone would hit on someone based on a female name, you’re more of a douche than I already knew you were.

And I guess you’ve just took over charge here as THE AUTHORITY on all issues in screenwriting, huh?  No need for anyone else to give their point of view, John C is here.  One look at your Avatar makes it quite clear what kind of authority you are…a low one, bud...a rock bottom low one.

For the record, I did not tell Kimberly that her logline was a good one…I said IMO, it was better than the one some analyst gave her, and to me, it wasn’t “bad” either.  So, c’mon now, let’s keep it real at least, OK?

So, we have a difference of opinion on 2 loglines.  Not sure why you think your opinion overrules my opinion, or why you’d even consider writing this post in the vein you chose to.  Kinda weird, don’t you think?

You’re completely missing the point about what I said about labeling Dreams and Flashbacks, as well as missing the point in the big difference between a written script and a watchable movie.  Reading a script is not like watching the filmed version.  There’s just so much more going on when you watch a flick…you have visuals of all kinds, you have sound.  With a script, you simply have words.  And keep in mind that a script is not meant to entertain like a novel, it’s meant to be the groundwork for a movie.

Bottom line – Flashbacks and Dreams need to be labeled as such.  If they’re not, it won’t make any sense at all, and that’s the last thing you want in your script.

Crawl back into you little hole, John C.  We’ve had enough of you for awhile.

Quoted from Dreamscale Thanks so much for the great advice here, John C…I had no clue SS was a site in which writers try to help other writers.  Thanks so much for setting me straight.  I was really confused…NOT! Dude, WTF is this horseshit about? If you seriously think I or anyone would hit on someone based on a female name, you’re more of a douche than I already knew you were. And I guess you’ve just took over charge here as THE AUTHORITY on all issues in screenwriting, huh?  No need for anyone else to give their point of view, John C is here.  One look at your Avatar makes it quite clear what kind of authority you are…a low one, bud...a rock bottom low one. For the record, I did not tell Kimberly that her logline was a good one…I said IMO, it was better than the one some analyst gave her, and to me, it wasn’t “bad” either.  So, c’mon now, let’s keep it real at least, OK? So, we have a difference of opinion on 2 loglines.  Not sure why you think your opinion overrules my opinion, or why you’d even consider writing this post in the vein you chose to.  Kinda weird, don’t you think? You’re completely missing the point about what I said about labeling Dreams and Flashbacks, as well as missing the point in the big difference between a written script and a watchable movie.  Reading a script is not like watching the filmed version.  There’s just so much more going on when you watch a flick…you have visuals of all kinds, you have sound.  With a script, you simply have words.  And keep in mind that a script is not meant to entertain like a novel, it’s meant to be the groundwork for a movie. Bottom line – Flashbacks and Dreams need to be labeled as such.  If they’re not, it won’t make any sense at all, and that’s the last thing you want in your script. Crawl back into you little hole, John C.  We’ve had enough of you for awhile.

Jeffrey, this isn't a case of "I prefer chocolate over vanilla" when it comes to the two loglines, one is clearly superior to the other, and I laid out why:

Quoted Text Maybe you might be intrigued, but I think most would find it vague and unsatisfying. And the reader's suggested logline is better in that it provides more details. It's no longer just some unidentified 'near death experience' he's suffered, the dude's family was murdered! See the difference? It tells us that he's someone torn by the tragic loss of his loved ones and the psychological wounds one carries from such an event. Next, the reader's logline reveals he's having visions of other people's deaths and this becomes his central struggle: figuring out if there's anything he can do to prevent them, or if there's some deeper mystery at work. Again, this is something that is not identified in Kim's original logline. The second logline gives us a clearer picture of who the protagonist is, and what he's after.

If you feel I'm wrong, you're welcome to refute the paragraph above, rather than go the route of the troll and try and instigate a flame war. One of the two loglines above clearly does a better job of getting the information across, which is why you sidestepped the issue entirely, choosing to launch into personal attacks instead. But let me try and put it in a way that even you might understand. Kimberely is trying to get her script from point A to B -- point A being where it is now, to point B, which is getting an agent or producer to read it. If you tell Kim that an inferior logline is the better of the two, you are not helping her get her screenplay from A to B, in fact you may be misleading her. Unfortunately, you are an obtuse individual (and like most who are obtuse), you're probably too dumb to realize you're wrong. But loglines aren't entirely a matter of opinion, there are criteria that set better ones apart. If you don't understand what these are, please don't chime in and potentially steer someone wrong.

And par for the course, you're wrong about labeling dreams and flashbacks as well. You can write Kim's opening scene in a way that doesn't immediately tip off the reader. For example, we witness the fire burning the house, people screaming, etc... and then cut to Nolan jolting awake in bed, covered in sweat. It'll be obvious to most that what we witnessed was Nolan dreaming. The question is what does Kim want from her opening scene? Does she want a scene of stark reality that's jarring to the reader (in essence, fooling us), then you would avoid labeling it as a dream, allowing the reader to discover that later. But if you label it a dream, then you are letting the reader know that this is an unreal situation, and that conveys a different meaning entirely. How the writer wants that scene to be understood determines if it is labelled as such or not.

My apologies to Kim.

John, it takes a rare breed (and an irritating one) to hijack someone's thread, throwing out insults at someone else trying to help.  It's that same breed who has the audacity to think (and come right out and say) that all other opinions other than his own, are incorrect and shouldn't even be offered.

John, keep in mind, that once again, you are the one who instigated this.  You are the one who decided to throw out insults at me, based on what I was offering to Kim.

Man, I don't understand you.  I really don't.  You're such an arrogant little prick, but the sad thing is that you have nothing to back that arrogance up with.  Have you ever even written a feature length script before?  Are you a logline expert?  What are you basing all this crap on and who are you to say what's better or best?

It's all opinions, dumbfuck.  Even a horse's ass like you should know that.  If Kim doesn't want my advice or input, all she has to do is say so.  Based on your demeanor, she shouldn't listen to anyone except you.  Why even post anything here, actually, just send it over to John C...you'll set 'em all straight, huh?

In response to your comments, once again, you can't seem to read what's actually written down in black and white, which is really scary, considering your input is so sacred and valuable.  I stated that IMO (which stands for "in my opinion") Kim's original logline was better than the one some coverage A-Hole gave her.  I also stated that I understood why she was having difficulty with it.  And I stated that I am far from a logline expert, like you, but then again, you're an expert on everything, aren't you?

Your last comment about Dream and Flashback scenes really hit the nail on the head when you used the phrase "fooling us".  Not the way to go, A-Hole.  A script is not meant to fool anyone.  When it tries to, it does so because it either can't deliver on its own, or it's written by a douchebag who feels the need to deceive his audience.

As I clearly stated, I didn't read this entire script, so I don't know exactly how it flows, but it seems like dreams play a major part in the story, meaning, there are most likely a bunch of them.  So, genius, is your advice that Kim conceal every dream scene by not labeling it as such?  Or should she label some and deceive and confuse the audience on others?  Same thing on Flashbacks, too?

Dude, this is funny actually.  I now recall why your name and irritating avatar seem so familiar.  We had an altercation on a "script" you wrote and you just couldn't admit to any of its many mistakes.  You just couldn't stop with personal attacks and out of left field comments that made absolutely no sense.  You were just completely clueless what was even wrong with that sad excuse for a first time writer's script, and couldn't wrap your ass cheeks around the fact that there wasn't a story there, and the entire joke ending was tied to an unfilmable, meaning the joke was actually on you, not your poor audience that had to sit through the read.

Again John, you started this with you personal attacks on me.  You started this with your holier than though attitude.  My original post stated over and over that what I was saying was my personal opinion.  There's nothing wrong with opinions, asswipe, and yours isn't the only one out there.

Now, please, go back to whatever it is you do with your time.  Or maybe, you should go back and read that awesome werewolf script pf yours and try and figure out what I was talking about.  Trust me, it will help you, and it's clear you need all the help you can get.

Quoted from Dreamscale My apologies to Kim. John, it takes a rare breed (and an irritating one) to hijack someone's thread, throwing out insults at someone else trying to help.  It's that same breed who has the audacity to think (and come right out and say) that all other opinions other than his own, are incorrect and shouldn't even be offered. John, keep in mind, that once again, you are the one who instigated this.  You are the one who decided to throw out insults at me, based on what I was offering to Kim. Man, I don't understand you.  I really don't.  You're such an arrogant little prick, but the sad thing is that you have nothing to back that arrogance up with.  Have you ever even written a feature length script before?  Are you a logline expert?  What are you basing all this crap on and who are you to say what's better or best? It's all opinions, dumbfuck.  Even a horse's ass like you should know that.  If Kim doesn't want my advice or input, all she has to do is say so.  Based on your demeanor, she shouldn't listen to anyone except you.  Why even post anything here, actually, just send it over to John C...you'll set 'em all straight, huh? In response to your comments, once again, you can't seem to read what's actually written down in black and white, which is really scary, considering your input is so sacred and valuable.  I stated that IMO (which stands for "in my opinion") Kim's original logline was better than the one some coverage A-Hole gave her.  I also stated that I understood why she was having difficulty with it.  And I stated that I am far from a logline expert, like you, but then again, you're an expert on everything, aren't you? Your last comment about Dream and Flashback scenes really hit the nail on the head when you used the phrase "fooling us".  Not the way to go, A-Hole.  A script is not meant to fool anyone.  When it tries to, it does so because it either can't deliver on its own, or it's written by a douchebag who feels the need to deceive his audience. As I clearly stated, I didn't read this entire script, so I don't know exactly how it flows, but it seems like dreams play a major part in the story, meaning, there are most likely a bunch of them.  So, genius, is your advice that Kim conceal every dream scene by not labeling it as such?  Or should she label some and deceive and confuse the audience on others?  Same thing on Flashbacks, too? Dude, this is funny actually.  I now recall why your name and irritating avatar seem so familiar.  We had an altercation on a "script" you wrote and you just couldn't admit to any of its many mistakes.  You just couldn't stop with personal attacks and out of left field comments that made absolutely no sense.  You were just completely clueless what was even wrong with that sad excuse for a first time writer's script, and couldn't wrap your ass cheeks around the fact that there wasn't a story there, and the entire joke ending was tied to an unfilmable, meaning the joke was actually on you, not your poor audience that had to sit through the read. Again John, you started this with you personal attacks on me.  You started this with your holier than though attitude.  My original post stated over and over that what I was saying was my personal opinion.  There's nothing wrong with opinions, asswipe, and yours isn't the only one out there. Now, please, go back to whatever it is you do with your time.  Or maybe, you should go back and read that awesome werewolf script pf yours and try and figure out what I was talking about.  Trust me, it will help you, and it's clear you need all the help you can get.

Jeff, get a hold of yourself. You're acting like a buffoon.

The points on which we disagree are that loglines are all just a matter of opinion, and that dream sequences must be labeled as such. And you're wrong on both points. First, everyone may have an opinion, but not all opinions are equal. Some people know what they're talking about and others do not, and when it comes to loglines you've more than proven that you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about. Second, you should avoid labelling dream sequences, if you don't want the reader to know that what s/he is witnessing is a dream. That fact can be revealed afterwards, when its appropriate to the story. Case in point, should the script to The Matrix label all the scenes in the first half of the movie as a dream?

This is completely off topic quys! Entertaining as it is to watch you two attacking each other, I think it's time to stop and move on.  You aren't helping the author anymore.  

Both of the issues you two are arguing about are matters of opinion.  The loglines especially (and just because some reader came up with the second one doesn't make it automatically better).  However, I do think the second logline is less clunky.

As far as the DREAM goes.  It should clearly be marked a dream and if the author doesn't mention it beforehand then they should make sure we know afterwards.  Nothing worse than confusion because someone wants to be artsy when they really don't need to be.  The director needs to know he has a dream sequence - it needs to be clear.      

Thank you, Michael.  It's good to see a voice of reason every now and then.

I was about to tell big John C that I was done with this and him, as I've got enough shit going on in my life these days without listening to his drivel, so now I'll bow out.

Apologies to Kim again.  I sure didn't intend for things to go this route.

Beast of luck with this.

Kim,

What can I say?  I've always been a fan of your work.   You've got a style that puts most others to shame, IMO.    This was an intriguing story.  Effortless read.   Marketable.  

If I had one gripe it might be the title.   I think you could come up with something better.  But that's just me.

Keep up the good work.

Quoted from mcornetto This is completely off topic quys! Entertaining as it is to watch you two attacking each other, I think it's time to stop and move on.  You aren't helping the author anymore.   Both of the issues you two are arguing about are matters of opinion.  The loglines especially (and just because some reader came up with the second one doesn't make it automatically better).  However, I do think the second logline is less clunky. As far as the DREAM goes.  It should clearly be marked a dream and if the author doesn't mention it beforehand then they should make sure we know afterwards.  Nothing worse than confusion because someone wants to be artsy when they really don't need to be.  The director needs to know he has a dream sequence - it needs to be clear.

Sorry to disagree, Mike, but in stepping in to rescue Jeff from further embarrassment, you're misrepresenting things. It's not just a difference of opinion, or an "off topic" dispute. We're dealing with issues brought up in Kim's script -- or at least I am. Our friend Jeff, on the other hand, has gone into full blown attack mode.  One of us is responding in a rational manner, while the other is frothing at the mouth. There is a right and wrong here.

Quoted Text Bottom line -- Flashbacks and Dreams need to be labeled as such.  If they're not, it won't make any sense at all, and that's the last thing you want in your script.

Jeff is giving wrong advice. And one should have the right to correct him if that's the case. And it's the same about the logline. It's not strictly a matter of opinion. A good logline tells us what we need to know about the character, his main goal, and the central conflict of the story. And I explained clearly why one logline does that better than the other (and not just because it was written by some reader). Jeff, on the other hand, couldn't muster any response other than it's his opinion and that's he's entitled to it. Sure, people have the right to be wrong, but they shouldn't be surprised when they're called an idiot.

Quoted from John C Sorry to disagree, Mike, but in stepping in to rescue Jeff from further embarrassment, you're misrepresenting things. It's not just a difference of opinion, or an "off topic" dispute. We're dealing with issues brought up in Kim's script -- or at least I am. Our friend Jeff, on the other hand, has gone into full blown attack mode.  One of us is responding in a rational manner, while the other is frothing at the mouth. There is a right and wrong here. Jeff is giving wrong advice. And one should have the right to correct him if that's the case. And it's the same about the logline. It's not strictly a matter of opinion. A good logline tells us what we need to know about the character, his main goal, and the central conflict of the story. And I explained clearly why one logline does that better than the other (and not just because it was written by some reader). Jeff, on the other hand, couldn't muster any response other than it's his opinion and that's he's entitled to it. Sure, people have the right to be wrong, but they shouldn't be surprised when they're called an idiot.

My apologies if you think I'm wrong.  But I do believe this thread is about the script, not Jeff's advice.  If you want an actual representation of whether of not advice is correct then you should take it up with the whole board.  Go open a thread in the screenwriting class section and argue about it there.   Jeff is not representative of the whole board and neither are you.   And btw, what makes you think that it was Jeff I was trying to save from further embarrassment?

Quoted from mcornetto My apologies if you think I'm wrong.  But I do believe this thread is about the script, not Jeff's advice.  If you want an actual representation of whether of not advice is correct then you should take it up with the whole board.  Go open a thread in the screenwriting class section and argue about it there.   Jeff is not representative of the whole board and neither are you.   And btw, what makes you think that it was Jeff I was trying to save from further embarrassment?

Mike, no one is claiming their views represent the whole board. We're all individuals with their own opinions on a site that's supposed to be about the free exchange of ideas. Sometimes disagreements arise, and people argue their side, that's what a message board is supposed to be. However, our friend Jeff here has gone completely off the deep end, hurling a childish and abusive tantrum, and I don't appreciate you sweeping us both aside as argumentative troublemakers when its clear which side is behaving inappropriately.

John, damn, man, you literally can't let it go, can you, big guy?

Your last post is incorrect once again, as you have said from your original post that these issues are not a matter of opinion and you are correct and everyone else is incorrect.  Just go back and read your words, or if you need someone else to, that can be arranged as well.

Also, you are the one who initiated the problems here, not me.  I have stated very clearly from my initial post to Kim, not to you, that everything I said was my opinion.  For the record, that's exactly what "IMO" means.  You immediately jumped at me, telling me I was incorrect and you were correct (although you are once again clearly incorrect).  I don't think you once said that what you were offering was your opinion.  You made it very clear that what you were offering (other than really piss poor advice) was gospel.

This is the same situation on an earlier post where you couldn't seem to understand what an opinion is, nor can you even fathom that what you are saying is so far from correct.

I ask you again, since you can't seem to let this die, have you ever written a script?  What are you basing your authority on?  What can you show us that shows off this odd belief that you even have a clue what you're talking about?

Please, brother, do tell...I for one am dying to see it.

What part of 'that's the end of it in this thread' don't you two understand?  This is Kim's thread.  She gets advice from people unsolicited or solicited.   It's up to her to decide if the advice works for her or not.  Not anyone else.

Now if I see either of you two posting in this thread again then I'm going to lock this thread - no matter what you have to say.  I'm sure Kim will be very happy with you if that happens and she'll certainly take your advice to heart then.

I think some of this crap should be deleted.  However, I will leave it up to Kim from which post I should start deleting.  She can pm me or bert and let us know.  Everything will remain in this thread until she tells us to delete it.

Got that Jeff and John?

Got that Kim?

Wow, okay, a lot's happened since I last visited this thread. My apologies to all those that offered advice when I wasn't here to accept it. Thanks to everyone that decided to give Subconscious a read despite the bad logline, and I agree, it was bad.

I don't even know where to start. So just to clarify, it was an "it was all a dream" ending, but I've since reconsidered. If I had paid $10 to see a movie and got all the way to the end only to find out it was all a coma-induced dream, I'd want my money back. So I'll see if I can get the old version swapped out for the new one. I also have a much better logline, although I can't take the credit since it was given to me by a friend on another message board.

Again, thank you all so much for the advice. I'll be putting it to good use in my next rewrite.

Mike, no need to delete anything. I wasn't offended. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, no matter how they choose to express it

Thanks Don for getting the new draft and logline up!

Well written. Intro is not bad. Impressive material.

Hello Kim,

You've gotten some interesting comments and non sequitur traffic on this thread.
Thought I'd give this a look see since the new draft is largely neglected.

I have to say Kim, these pages read really fast, I'm impressed.
This isn't my kind of story, but the narrative keeps me on the page.
I read the first third today, 32 pages, pretty clean. Good pacing.
I will continue your script and finish as my schedule allows.
You open strong and keep it tight. Kudos.

I have two sticking points so far:

1) The dream slug lines.
I keep reviewing slugs when I'm unsure if it's a dream.
Dreamscale offered some advice to this end, I'll echo that sentiment here.

2) Dialogue, especially the female characters.
Annavay and the neighbor sound very stilted.
Saying things like she was like a sister to me and all that jazz. Yuck.

I understand Nolan has a yet well defined medical condition.
Hence, he needs to be reminded of things, but there's got to be a better way.

I'm intrigued as to where you'll take it in the second act.

Regards,
E.D.

Kim,

I read through pages 32 - 64 this morning.
Your pages still read super slick, but I found the mid section less compelling.
I felt like you were keeping me at arm's length most of the second act.
We're not discovering anything because characters are deliberately holding back.
There are several instances of that and they pile up and get frustrating.
The "stop asking questions if you know what's good for you" thing gets old fast.
Towards the end you give us a few tidbits, which help move things along.
Nolan is an angry sod, him taking swings at people gets a bit stale.
I'm sure some of this will be explained away, but maybe lose the James punch?
I'd like Nolan doing more discovery of his past on his own, police records perhaps?
An old friend in the records room gives Nolan some clues, stuff like that.
Anna's awful quick to run off with Nolan, hmmm, wonder why.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you wrap this up!

Regards,
E.D.

I read the logline and remembered another feature I once read called Eight Minute Dream.

The logline goes:
After a head injury, a writer struggles to separate memory from imagination to save the life of a little girl who is reaching out to him in his visions.

and you can find the script here:
http://moviepoet.com/script.aspx?scriptid=1528

I don't know if it's of any help but maybe you can compare the two...

Hey there Kim,

I finished your script this morning.
You definitely can put together a swift read, that's quite a skill.
Infidelity amnesia thrillers aren't my bag, but this holds it's own.
There are some things I'm unclear on about in the third act.

**SPOILERS**

I understand that Nolan was being giving some hallucinogenic.
However, I'm unsure which visions were real or which were imagined.
James hired those two goons to murder his sister-in-law and niece.
The old "If I can't have you, no one can." sentiment. Ok.
So the goons go to jail and James kills their wife and little girl to frame Nolan?
James drugs Nolan to what end? Give him doubts about his own culpability?
I don't recall anything even hinting to the audience that James was unstable.
If James wanted Nolan dead, why not just have him killed again?
Why all the coy disguises? James knows that Nolan's memory can recover anytime.
So I guess he drugs Nolan in an attempt to impede his memory return?
James must know that Anna or Benson could spill the beans at anytime.
Benson knew about the affair, that would have made James a prime suspect.
Unless, the shootings were made to look like a robbery.
As they are, it's an execution style deal, so that's premeditated for sure.
If it happened at a place that James knew the family would be vulnerable.
Then he could make it look like a random robbery or something.

I have problems distinguishing between the visions and memories.
Nolan develops some kind of random clairvoyance about more murders.
He envisions "someone" murdering those innocents, and then it happens.
We now know he didn't do it, so where did those visions come from?
Was it the drug from James? Or was it some supernatural ability?
Is this ability supposedly from his head wound or something?
I have a lot of questions about this, doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the read.

With all due respect, I think if you knew the plot better, this would read clearer.
A complex mystery riddled with dreams, visions and shadowy deeds is tricky.
You have talent, but I feel like the story has some logic gaps.
James can be exposed at anytime by Anna and Benson.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that he doesn't act on that possibility.

The police line up on p.77. Cops would never let that happen.
Leaving a fellow officer alone with the man that executed his family? Never.
The conveniently dropped cell phone on p. 84 is a real eye roller.
You're smart, you can do way better than that.

I enjoyed the read, Kim, it's has a lot of gripping elements.
I look forward to seeing how you tie it all together in future drafts.

Keep writing and rewriting!

Regards,
E.D.

khamanna, thanks for the link

bola, thanks for the read

E.D., thanks for giving some attention to the new draft. You bring up some very good points that will be fixed in future drafts.

Just to clarify, James didn't hire those guys to kill Jody and Megan. He was in love with Jody and Megan was his daughter. The men were after Nolan to get revenge over a DUI arrest. James blamed Nolan for Jody and Megan's deaths because in his mind they were killed because of the choices Nolan made, thus making him responsible. Instead of just killing Nolan and being done with it, he decides to frame him for all the murders and slowly cause him to go insane (or so he had hoped).

Benson and Nolan weren't speaking after what happened at the funeral, so James figured he didn't need to worry about him. As for Annavay, he had her convinced she was doing what was best for Nolan by not talking about the affair, as per their phone conversation in the hotel room when Nolan interrupts.

The dream/visions were meant to be a supernatural element. A means to make things right and save Annavay because he couldn't save Jody and Megan. The drugs James gave him were to induce hallucinations and make him feel like he was going crazy and eventually cause him to believe he murdered the woman and child.

Quoted from screen_dreamer E.D., thanks for giving some attention to the new draft. You bring up some very good points that will be fixed in future drafts. Just to clarify, James didn't hire those guys to kill Jody and Megan. He was in love with Jody and Megan was his daughter. The men were after Nolan to get revenge over a DUI arrest. James blamed Nolan for Jody and Megan's deaths because in his mind they were killed because of the choices Nolan made, thus making him responsible. Instead of just killing Nolan and being done with it, he decides to frame him for all the murders and slowly cause him to go insane (or so he had hoped). Benson and Nolan weren't speaking after what happened at the funeral, so James figured he didn't need to worry about him. As for Annavay, he had her convinced she was doing what was best for Nolan by not talking about the affair, as per their phone conversation in the hotel room when Nolan interrupts. The dream/visions were meant to be a supernatural element. A means to make things right and save Annavay because he couldn't save Jody and Megan. The drugs James gave him were to induce hallucinations and make him feel like he was going crazy and eventually cause him to believe he murdered the woman and child.

Kim,

Thanks for the reply. Oh, wow, did I miss the DUI revenge element completely?
I swear I didn't skim your script, I must have spaced it somehow.
I remember reading about the daughter, but I guess I blocked it out.
There's so much going on here, not sure it adds anything necessary to the story.
If there were hints about the supernatural stuff, I missed them.
A whodunit frame job, infidelity, dreams, precognition, it's a lot to process.
I'm honestly not sure, but maybe dropping an element might clarify the rest of them?
Just a thought, I like your writing style Kim, look forward to seeing more of it.

Keep writing and rewriting!

Regards,
E.D.