Quoted from Scar Tissue Films For whatever reason, Lucas and Spielberg both tend to put very childish, very unrealistic sequences in their films now. They never used to. They have devolved as filmmakers. Jaws was a kids film, but it's one of the scariest thrillers ever made. If Spielberg made it now it would be full of slapstick comedy.

Very true.  I see this as a sort of negative feedback reaction to the overall film climate.  As the industry pushed their clownass "dark, gritty, realistic" faux-verite standard further and further, Spielberg and Lucas compensated and then overcompensated with more and more silliness.  Personally, lthough I don't think there's any doubt that both became much too silly -- and I'm certainly no fan of Spielberg -- I'll take excessively staged silliness over lazily staged "realism" any day.  

Quoted from kingcooky555 Instead, he copped out and when kiddie porn on all the adults who grew up to the original masterpiece.

Two thoughts on this; first, I wouldn't see it so much as "going" anything on the adults, as I think that the new films were aimed at a new generation of kids rather than an old generation of fans.  Even considering this from a marketing standpoint, it makes sense; the original fans were going to see the prequels no matter what, and there's no reason to pander to them.  More importantly, though, film is a medium so immediate and timely that it must be aimed primarily at its own generation, and Star Wars is, after all, for youths.

Second, I would seriously contest the use of the word "masterpiece."  Hope is tightly told but rough as hell and terribly written and acted.  Jedi blows.  Empire is a great, great film, and certainly the only of the three deserving anywhere close to such an accolade.

There's some great discussion on this, chaps. Very good to see different perspectives. Always good.

Also good to see Star Wars still stokes the fire.

To my mind these films are undeniably built for kids, and adults’ inner kid, which is what made it such a marketing phenomenon at the time. Whilst there are clearly some 'adult' themes present, you’ll actually find this to be the case (at least in terms of complexity) with an awful lot of kids films. I think it's clear there's not a consensus on what kids films actually are. I don't see them as one genre, i.e. kids - I see kids films as a group that can be sliced and diced just like 'adult films' (suggestive undertone unintended).

RE: the legitimacy issue. I can't pretend to know what control Lucas has in giving a go ahead to other writers, but unless it comes from Lucas or he's actively involved, I think it lacks the legitimacy of a true Star Wars product. This is his world, and that's why it's so baffling he's viewed with such disdain. Or considered the worst writer of his creation! I do understand a lot of the derision at certain moments in the new films, but, you know, it's always a pre-requisite to check cool in at the popcorn counter when watching Star Wars. It was always a little silly.

All of this said, I'm just not into the convention geekdom that surrounds universes like Star Wars, Star Trek, LOTR, Harry Potter, etc. There's a superb irony of geeks (who typically abhor mainstream manipulation) casting aside their principles and finding themselves acting like fans of the Bay City Rollers. That awareness is what makes Kevin Smith so deliciously funny with his clear taking the piss of himself and cohorts. For the record, I don't care either way, 'cos people like to belong to groups exhibiting similar behaviour/values/whatever. Nothing wrong with that. I just enjoy the irony. Kinda like when at school all the alternatives mocked the uniformity of everyone else, whilst being blissfully unaware of their own conformity. So that's why I take a lot of the geek criticism of Lucas with a pinch of salt. Obviously no offence intended, Rick! Just a general observation.

Lucas was really on a hiding to nothing by making the second trilogy. He surely knew the 'real fans' would lampoon him, but he also knew there was a new generation of kids to inspire and introduce to his wonderful legacy (notwithstanding its negative impact for others). Like Kevin, I don't want to be a Lucas defender or apologist - thus accepting unworthy films - but I think it's good to have some balance to the (what I consider) slightly unfair backlash.

Interesting Syriana comparison, Rick. Syriana was one of my favourite films of the last decade. Great film. I do see the comparison. I diverge on the intentions and messaging. Syriana's lens into corruption, etc is the whole point (therefore is the story), whereas in Star Wars it's an additional theme to insert a platform for the real meat on the bones: the universal themes of love, overcoming your fears, etc.

I do think Phantom Menace is worth a fresh look for many as they may not have seen it for years. My initial point was that time has been fairly kind to the film. Once we get past the initial disappointment when it came out, and reassess it, there's room for some forgiveness and reassessment. That's why my opinion changed on the pod race. Initially I was indifferent, but this time I felt in the cockpit of an F1 car with all the sounds and weaving through tight corners. It’s easy to be cynical (and it’s the obvious response) but films like Star Wars should melt cynicism.

When I walked out of this showing, I saw a lot of smiling kids. It warmed my heart. Perhaps it was their first experience of Star Wars and now they’ll grow to love it like many of us did. Surely there’s nothing more satisfying as a filmmaker – and that makes all the criticism and cynicism melt away.

Don't worry Andrew, I'm not THAT much of a Star Wars fan that I go to conventions!

Ultimately we're not going agree about "legitimacy". It matters not who invents something...just about who does it best.

You agree that Empire was the best film and Lucas didn't direct it, Irvin Kershner did and Kasdan wrote the script.

Is that not a legitimate Star Wars?

The weak characters he's created in the new trilogy have all been taken and made into much better ones by different writers.

The Anakin of the novels is far more convincing than the one note character in the films. We actually get to see his ridiculous power for a start.  Amidala is far more regal and proactive. Obi Wan seems exactly like the heroic, best of all Jedi's that the original trilogy suggested he was. The likes of Count Dooku, the wisest of all Jedi's, cuts a far more interesting figure as he attempts to master both the Dark and Light side of the force...and this continues with each and every character and each and every story line.

They are just better stories and that's the only legitimacy that counts as far as I'm concerned.

Are we to discount films such as Batman because it's not the original creator making the film? Was Frank Miller's Year One stuff that has basically re-invented superheroes for a new generation not legitimate because he's not Bob Kane?

Lucas is entitled to do whatever he wants with his creation. It's his sandpit. I'm grateful that he came up with the vision, I just recognise that his talents are limited to some degree and that Star Wars was/is a massive collaborative achievement.

Ultimately he created something bigger than himself and it will be going long after he's dead...like Batman, Sherlock Holmes and all the other stories that people invented.

Hence the disdain..Star Wars>George Lucas. His weird attempts at ruining even his first films with silly extra scenes have made him seem like the weird uncle at the family party that no-one wants there.

The most cardinal sin a writer/director can make is to contradict the logic within the Universe he's created. This is what he does several times and it kind of makes people hate him.

I've got nothing against the guy, I just don't think the films he made were up to much compared to the originals. ROTS was the best of them.

I say I'm not into the geekiness of it... but I still harbour hopes of one day sporting a stormtrooper suit.

I get your point about using a universe and allowing different interpretations of it, with all being equally valid. I'm not sure I'd categorise Star Wars and Batman (or any story with a comic book origin) in the same multi vision world. Star Wars was solely George Lucas' world that he brought (against opposition and ridicule no less) to the big screen. Naturally it was a collaborative process (all films are), but he was responsible for it from inception to big screen. That's hugely different to any comic book's route to the big screen. So to be fair, I'm not sure we're comparing like for like.

Therefore the notion that all versions of the source material are equally valid doesn't stand, IMO. There may well be writers churning out stuff with more raw ability than Lucas, but none of them are seemingly capable of imagining such a universe to hinge their stories on. Offshoots are fine, but they lack the authenticity (I'll change up the word to diffuse negative connotations) that Lucas can bring as the author of the world. These guys can develop back stories and the like all they want, but I defer to Lucas for the real development of his universe.

Now when the inevitable reboot surfaces, I will consider that differently as it's a separate entity. That's someone else's world and they're treated separately. I don't want to be too derogatory to writers whose work I've never read, but it's like fan fiction to me. Not to be taken too seriously. It's just how I view it.

But I still can't for the life of me fathom why you're do reluctant to give Lucas more than a jot of credit. It appears you think the Star Wars universe is only special in spite of him! I appreciate you consider others as influential and took the work to the next level (which is something neither of us can know as outsiders), but why the reluctance to acknowledge his unparalleled importance to Star Wars. I'm not suggesting he's among the best directors out there but it takes incredible talent and imagination to bring the world alive, and not to mention ingenuity to realise the vision. Cameron is attempting this with Avatar now and these guys are remarkable and inspirational.

As I say, though, I'm enjoying reading your perspective on this. It's good fun to exchange views on it.

Oh, and re: Empire (not to forget Marquand's Return), Lucas was obviously involved heavily in the production. Very different from the novels.

My point was regards Lucas' involvement, as opposed to his directing when discussing the legitimacy.

Quoted from Andrew I still harbour hopes of one day sporting a stormtrooper suit.

Who doesn't! lol

I wasn't sad to see this one flounder at the boxoffice.
Not one #1 finish in ANY country in the WORLD after an global opening.

I can't see any artistic reason behind the conversion.

I'm thrilled that sequels, tentpoles and remakes are by and large tanking.
The more original scripts thriving at the boxoffice, the better!

E.D.