I agree Pia. "Coffee" by itself is blah. "Inspiration" is much better.

Quoted from Grandma Bear In that case I think INSPIRATION would work even better. After all that's what Gabe is looking for. Coffee is just something they consume...

Yes, but "Inspiration" makes the script sound more thought-provoking than it really is. Not everyone is looking for inspiration in this script, but everyone is drawn together because of a few cups of coffee.

I like the title.  I think it fits perfectly.

Also, I do not like the idea of Jill showing up at the end.  Cam and Gabe actually left the city, where I assume Jill is, to hopefully break Gabe from his constant thinking of her via bad dreams, which means they are no where near her.  So. . .the odds of her happening to wander out the the city to the same 'burb' (I assume), and actually to the very diner where Gabe had just happened to have had the final dream in his series of dreams which broke him of her 'memory' and freed him from his block, thus to go on to write the great American novel, would be too coincidental to be even possible no matter how far I could suspend my disbelief.

This ending discussion reminds me of Amadeus:

Salieri: I think you overestimate our dear Viennese, my friend. You know you didn't even give them a good bang at the end of songs, to let them know when to clap?

Mozart: I know, I know, maybe you should give me some lessons in that...  

Well if Jill does turn up at the end, it means that she still has feelings for Gabe. Which means she has been wanting to meet up and talk to him. Which could justify her turning up.

What if she rang him on his cell?

Cam:  Was that. . .

Gabe:  It was.  It was Jill.

Barb:  Well I'll be damned.

Boring...

It needs to...or should end on a high note.  It would really make an impact, I think.  As it is now, there is no impact at all, and when you look back on the "Story", for me at least, I'm left with a void for the most part.

Well, perhaps we could have Yago stagger in, bloody and bruised having escaped from the car salesmen, and just as he goes to shoot Gabe, he's shot from behind by Jill, who got there just in time to save Gabe and prove her undying love.

Less boring?

Quoted from steven8 Well, perhaps we could have Yago stagger in, bloody and bruised having escaped from the car salesmen, and just as he goes to shoot Gabe, he's shot from behind by Jill, who got there just in time to save Gabe and prove her undying love. Less boring?

I realize you're being sarcastic, but yes, that is significantly less boring.  Much better than the phone call, imo.  Of course, the real problem with that ending is that Yago would actually be aiming for Jack.  Why shoot Gabe when Jack's the one who caused his downfall?

Though I can hardly believe it myself, I completely agree with what Dreamscale had to say about the ending.  It's possible this is a sign of the Apocalypse.  

Also, I agree with those who think the title could be improved.  Like the rest of the movie, the title isn't bad.  It just isn't great.  Maybe "Coffee and Characters" or "A Cup of Joes".  After all, he only really gets ideas for characters as opposed to a plot.

Quoted from escapist I realize you're being sarcastic, but yes, that is significantly less boring.  Much better than the phone call, imo.  Of course, the real problem with that ending is that Yago would actually be aiming for Jack.  Why shoot Gabe when Jack's the one who caused his downfall? Though I can hardly believe it myself, I completely agree with what Dreamscale had to say about the ending.  It's possible this is a sign of the Apocalypse.   Also, I agree with those who think the title could be improved.  Like the rest of the movie, the title isn't bad.  It just isn't great.  Maybe "Coffee and Characters" or "A Cup of Joes".  After all, he only really gets ideas for characters as opposed to a plot.

This actually captures one of my problems with the ending - Gabe's not done a great deal to resolve the Yago plot, so he isn't really the main focus of the ending. By rights it should be Jack's. I think Gabe needs something to at least claim the ending for his own.

As for the title...I don't mind it. I actually quite like it. I can't think of a better one, anyway.

Quoted from JonnyBoy This actually captures one of my problems with the ending - Gabe's not done a great deal to resolve the Yago plot, so he isn't really the main focus of the ending. By rights it should be Jack's. I think Gabe needs something to at least claim the ending for his own.

IMHO, Gabe hasn't done much of anything in this script.  He's more of an observer in his own story than a participant.  Jack dealt with Yago.


Phil

But most of the time a writer just observes. Gabe went to that diner to find a story, and it seems Mike has figured out the writer personality. I think the trouble with Gabe resolving the Yago situation, though, is that the resolution is amusing, and Gabe wouldn't have the contacts to do it.

I do think the Yago subplot has the potential to be the adventure Gabe is looking for if he would take it, but would that be in the spirit of the story? Since Jack is the lead on the Yago issue, would it be more worthwhile to make him the main character and leave Gabe as the observer he is? Then again, that would give Mr. Jack Amsterdam the lead in two stories, and Mike said this Jack is quite different from the other one in personality (or at least I think he did...or someone did).

EDIT: I was thinking about the structure, and was there any point in this story that Gabe could just go home and forget about it? Did he actually have a life-changing event that forced him to move forward? I don't think he did. Maybe that's the biggest problem. He had nothing to lose. Sure he has to write something, but if he doesn't do that today, is his life over? No, he'll just do it tomorrow without really losing anything.

By my calculations, it looks like I can now respond, so I'm going to go ahead and chime in now.  

There's been a ton of comments here, which is great, but I'm probably going to miss some stuff that I had intended to respond to before as I go along, so please excuse me in advance if I end up all over the place.

Hopefully, the conversation will keep going for a little bit and not die off after the writer responds, as it has in previous script clubs.

As I read through the comments this past week, I saw instances where people said "If you intended to do this, if you intended to do that, you failed", so I'll start out with what my intentions were.

When I sat down to write this script nearly three years ago, my intentions were to end up with a final product that someone would find interesting enough to pick up and film.  That's it.  It was my intention then, and it is my intention now in everything I write (one script excluded).

As the discussion went on, I started to wonder if things were really going the way I had hoped.  When I offered this script up for the discussion, it was with the intention that those commenting would take a step back, look at it, and try to figure out what it was that caused it to get the attention it has.

Is it because it's cheap?  Yes, in a sense, but there's definitely got to be more to a script than whether or not it doesn't cost a lot to produce.  That much is obvious.

Is it because of the story?  Depends on who you talk to.  Many think there's not a story here at all, but there is.  It's just very much based in reality.  Which brings me to my next point.

Realism.  There are people who have called this script boring, and others who have called it brilliant, which I've always taken pleasure in.  It's not an easy feat to create something that gets such vastly different reactions.  Now, I'd prefer if people didn't think it boring, but I can live with that when so many others have been on the other side of the fence, and that's precisely the reason that I have never made any really extreme changes to this script.

Actually, the biggest change I can think of is changing Jack's last name.  When I inserted him into this script, I did it with the intention of portraying him as a real guy, opposed to his character in "Swingin' Sounds".  Ultimately, I think people who read both scripts had a hard time distinguishing the two, so Jack Amsterdam became Jack Bannister.

But, to get back to where I was regarding the trail of the discussion, a lot of suggestions were made that seemed like they were addressing what I should do to rewrite this.  My question is, why would I rewrite it?  

The only thing that would accomplish would be to make the script more of a show piece, and it's already doing quite well in that regard as it is.  It's definitely more beneficial for me to continue working on new specs and expanding my available library.  This is something I would recommend to others as well.  Rewrites are fine, but don't get caught working on the same project for years and years, because it can really screw you in the end.  Example:

Say you've been working hard on something for an extended period of time.  It's your first script, and you want to make sure it's as perfect as possible.  There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but when you take that script to market, there's a good chance that you could get this response. "Well, the story really isn't for me, but I like your writing.  What else have you got?"  It's right there that you're basically screwed, because you have nothing else.  I'm sort of going off track, but I think that's a good piece of advice.  Get something to a presentable level, and don't worry about pleasing everyone.

Now, back to the script itself.

The discussion as of late has gone the way of talking about the ending, and suggestions have been made that Jill should show up.  I've gotta admit, that makes absolutely no sense to me.  She's gone.  She doesn't live anywhere in the area, and it's just not feasible for her to pop up in the end.  I think it was Steven that agreed with me on this.

The title.  It's a play on the old saying "Coffee & Conversation".  He goes to a coffee shop in search of inspiration and finds it.  For me, it seems like a decent fit, but I catch a lot of crap over my titles most of the time anyway.

In regards to Gabe not fixing his own problem, this is something that can be argued.  There are some that say Jack unseats him as the hero in the story, which is true, but in a deeper sense, the only reason that that happens, is because Gabe "wrote" it that way.

Yes, he meets these people and they all become a part of his story, but why?  It's because he was able to take their personalities and mold them into something that fit within his novel.  Barb, the waitress that knows how to read people becomes the "informant", Lily, the indentured servant stripper becomes the damsel in distress, Franklin, the germophobe stuck in the bathroom becomes the reluctant prisoner, and Del, the cook who can't cook becomes a "Q" like character who makes these cool weapons (much like his specials) but people just aren't interested.  These are all things that Gabe conjured up without any explicit help, and in the end gets him over his writer's block.

I'll stop here for now, but will definitely be responding more as the conversation continues.

Thanks to all who took the time to read and participate.

EDIT: Forgot another thing I wanted to talk about.  The intro of characters when Gabe first arrives at the coffee shop.  I see nothing wrong with it.  When he enters, you can see every single one of those people.  Sure they don't come into play right away, but they're there, on camera.  Why would I not introduce a character when you first see them?  Am I supposed to put two MEN and two WOMEN, and then ultimately intro them later?  BARB, the first woman you saw.  No, not that one, the other one.  Yeah, her.  The waitress.  That seems like a total waste to me.

Quoted from Shelton Many think there's not a story here at all, but there is.  It's just very much based in reality.  Which brings me to my next point. Realism.

Actually, I didn't find the script to be all that realistic.  Sure, it's not like you had vampires hunting dinosaurs with lasers or anything, but the characters came off to me as a bit more cartoony than real.  More through their actions than their traits.

Totally agree with you on the reasons for not rewriting.  Plus, this one is already being made, right?  Even more reason not to mess with it.  Unless you're George Lucas.

Also, I would have appreciated the title much more if I had ever actually heard the expression "Coffee & Conversation".

Quoted from escapist Actually, I didn't find the script to be all that realistic.  Sure, it's not like you had vampires hunting dinosaurs with lasers or anything, but the characters came off to me as a bit more cartoony than real.  More through their actions than their traits.

If you think these characters are cartoony, you should check out some of my other scripts.  You'd probably hear circus music in your head after about 3 pages.  It's an interesting point, though, and I'm curious.  Did you have to suspend disbelief at all to buy into these people?

Quoted from escapist Also, I would have appreciated the title much more if I had ever actually heard the expression "Coffee & Conversation".

Yeah, I can agree with that.  It's definitely not something that everyone would be familiar with.

Quoted from Shelton It's an interesting point, though, and I'm curious.  Did you have to suspend disbelief at all to buy into these people?

To a certain extent, yes.  Some specific instances I can highlight would be:

Franklin getting trapped in the restroom.  Couldn't he scream for help?  Use his shoe to open the door?  If he's that OCD, would he really make the mistake of running out of wet wipes?

Yago coming back with a gun, in broad daylight.  That seems a little bit unbelievable.  He already failed in the head-on confrontation, and he seems like the type that would take an indirect approach in getting even.  Waiting until Lily's alone, calling in some support, etc.

Mostly I just read a bit of a happy-go-lucky cartoony vibe into the script.  Everything just felt too fun and casual to be real (Maybe my life is simply too bleak and dreary, though  ).  Granted this feel was certainly influenced by dream sequences, and might come across differently when filmed.

I really don't feel a need for this script to be hyper-realistic (obviously not, with the ending I proposed).  Just surprised you saw it that way.