I've struggled through the script as best as I can.

All I can say is that I think it is bad enough to end numerous careers.

I'll leave it at that.

You know, I'm not too far into it but I kinda like it so far. Nice tone to it.

I haven't finished it yet, but I'm more than half way through.

I agree that it does get better, but still is far from brilliant IMHO.

Well, thanks, Pia.

It is nice to see some of you guys sticking it out.  I was worried this might just be the shortest Script Club ever haha.

And here I was worried that everybody would be gushing without anything negative to say.

Doesn't look like that will be a problem.

Could I direct a quick question to some of you that simply cannot stomach this script?

Do you recall at what point -- exactly, if you can -- that you decided, "I can not read any further into this script!" -- and you set it down.

That might also be an interesting discussion point to examine later -- as it seems there are several people still reading.

Quoted from bert So, with the OWC winding down, I am throwing open the gates for the newest iteration of Script Club, in which we will be discussing "Killing on Carnival Row". You can find the details above.  It is not too late to read the script and participate in the discussion.  It usually takes a few days to get rolling, and usually goes on for a week or two before it winds down. What I have taken away from past script clubs is that the conversations are fairly organic; the tangents are unpredictable, and lead where they will despite the most earnest of moderators.  Several people have led these in the past.  This is the first I have done in quite some time -- but I love the script under discussion here. I will swipe a page from George, however, and open as he did -- with the simple directive to start with your general first impression. This will give those who are going to participate a chance to speak up briefly, and kind of lets the others know where they will be coming from in terms of the discussion. As for myself, I found it to be one of the best scripts I have read in years.  I loved the way it was written, with many florid passages -- and yet I would challenge someone to point to a specific passage and call it overwritten.  But that is a discussion for later. Some of the other aspects we will be touching upon include: Story/structure/plot Characterization/arc/journey Dialogue Writing Commercial appeal But feel free to toss anything out there over the coming days.  I have some specific things I know I would like to discuss later, once we are rolling -- and I am almost sure that after reading this script, you will, too.

OK, I'm sorry if I'm not where everyone else is yet, but I'm trying my best.

My First Impression

This script is painted beautiful with its literal flair and its usage of strong emotive constructs within it.

Such as this:

Page 4

There is an "in and out" motion that I get. He stares into the eyes of the ghost and the train screams to a stop.

We feel like we're being sucked in and out, I can almost hear music in my head for this and sound effects and that would be a cool job, building sound overs for movies.  Ah, maybe next life!  

But I'm getting ahead. Let's go back to page 3

to the solid transition on page 3 with the use of the aerial view.

I can imagine us soaring along with the V.O. and coming down into a fade that becomes "the web" of which

The Philostrate speaks--

Here, we realize now, that we are looking at a
map in the underground train station

When the Philostrate proclaims,

And that's The Burgue for you, A-Z, we realize that this is where we really were all along.

There must be a name for these kinds of transitions, but I don't know what they are.

The writer, identifies the "source" and "location" of the voice over, relays it and then transports us magically back to it's source. (We mostly are unaware of these shifts unless we study it).

It became clear to me upon reading this, that I have met Philostrate! I know this guy. I'd recognize him anywhere!

Here:

Philostrate stuffs the papers into a nearby dustbin and tosses
a lit match in after them. A small bonfire erupts.
PHILOSTRATE (CONT'D)

PHILOSTRATE (CONT'D)
I'm sorry. Just doing my job.

I understand this. And it is just perfect for me.

At the 5 page mark, we're given clear understanding of the racial problems that exist in this world.

Notice in the beginning, when Aisling is plunged down to the waters, it is left there. We are left to wonder, what has happened. From there the story moves away, focusing our attention on Philostrate.

We know by the implications of Philostrate's dialogue that he is essentially a good man.

"Oh and you speak Selkie, do you?"

This:

A human face pushes through the open mouth. A whole head
emerges. Curly red hair. A hand. An arm. A shoulder.

The girl underneath pulls off the dark sealskin as if she's
sliding out of a tight leather skirt.

I love it. I feel like it's a chicken/egg scenario.

As we move to Moira's song, I could write pages on it. But I'll only quote on this:

sublime song soundless to men's ears

The beauty in this is the truth that there are many energetic frequencies that man cannot hear with his ears, but exist.

Within the words themselves, exist a current.

I like watching Bottom's frustration in that it's our human tendency to get that way. We want it and we want it now. Why must we go through listening to all this apparent rubbish.

What is very nicely done on the writer's part is that Bottom is shown acting in his frustration BEFORE he expresses it outright in his dialogue.

At the point of his frustration, he's completely engaged in his work. You can almost imagine him thinking "fuckin crap" to himself. BUT he doesn't say it. I think this is a good example of when it's better not to say "fuck". As some fucking scripts are loaded with the fucking word! Oh, sorry.

Oh man! I love this here:

BOTTOM
Waste of time. It's all gibberish.

PHILOSTRATE
You see, that's why you have to come
to work in the uniform and I get to
wear whatever I want.

I'm certain I've met the Philostrate before. Goes by different names. Hi Phil! Luv ya! (see Sandra wave)

I had to laugh at Bottom here:

BOTTOM (CONT'D)
No wonder there's so many murders.
Seedy places like that breed psychos
by the bushel. Someone should really
go up to Carnival Row and cart the
lot of 'em off to the clink.


PHILOSTRATE
I have plenty of suits.

You do Philo, yes you do!

Here notice the BEATIFUL TYPO

They kiss deeply as she awkwardly fumbles with the his shirt.

That kind of thing happens when you're there!

So far, this is a complete surprise for me. I didn't know what I was going to be reading.

I'm very pleased and satisfied with it.

Bottom's questioning about male faeries is very curious and curiouser. I loved it.

Sandra

Quoted from bert The writer is not a member of these forums, to my knowledge.

I would love to meet the writer of this. I've only started, but I can feel it and imagine it coming to life.

Sandra

In response to Bert's question, I wasn't into it from the very first page.  As I said earlier, it seems to me that the writer is trying to do too much, trying to be too hip, and in doing, is overwriting, yet leaving me wanting more (if that makes any sense).

I just didn't get much out of the first 10 pages visuallly, and based on this wild, new world we're in, I should have.

Also, I'm just not interested in reading about a killing of a faerie.  No interest in reading about it or seeing it.

Hope that helps and makes sense.

Quoted from Dreamscale In response to Bert's question, I wasn't into it from the very first page.  As I said earlier, it seems to me that the writer is trying to do too much, trying to be too hip, and in doing, is overwriting, yet leaving me wanting more (if that makes any sense). I just didn't get much out of the first 10 pages visuallly, and based on this wild, new world we're in, I should have. Also, I'm just not interested in reading about a killing of a faerie.  No interest in reading about it or seeing it. Hope that helps and makes sense.

I think it does, Jeff. The question of "why" we're interested in something or not, in its reverse is fundamental in changing circumstances.

I absolutely love cooking, but I absolutely hate sewing. But I have enjoyed the work of crochet. WTF is that all about?

I used to love running marathons and now I'm chained to my computer, like a slave, but enjoying myself in a way I can't explain. I love music, but damned if I don't need 48 hours in a day so that I can sit down and strum or tickle the keys.

I love to write about sex and don't get me started. And humor. And I love life!

I'm a completely hopeless case!

Don't feel bad about not liking this. You like what you like when you like it.

The important thing is that we are here and alive and we care. Damn but I think of Simply as a real and physical place. How cool is that?!

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale In response to Bert's question, I wasn't into it from the very first page.  As I said earlier, it seems to me that the writer is trying to do too much, trying to be too hip, and in doing, is overwriting, yet leaving me wanting more (if that makes any sense). I just didn't get much out of the first 10 pages visuallly, and based on this wild, new world we're in, I should have. Also, I'm just not interested in reading about a killing of a faerie.  No interest in reading about it or seeing it. Hope that helps and makes sense.

I'd think you would relish a faerie killing.

This is a classic example of some accepting what is written where others do not.

I started reading and didn't put it down. I showed it to my daughter, and she did the same.

I still remember this story and it's been a couple of weeks since I read it.

It's been mentioned that this has all been done before, well, sure it has. Hasn't everything? This is the same, but different.

I went along for the ride and enjoyed every minute of it. If there is any weakness for me, it's the ending. How do you end a story like this? It would be like snuffing out this world, and that is tough to do to a world so richly created. But that's what we have nukes for.

Quoted from bert Well, thanks, Pia. It is nice to see some of you guys sticking it out.  I was worried this might just be the shortest Script Club ever haha. And here I was worried that everybody would be gushing without anything negative to say. Doesn't look like that will be a problem. Could I direct a quick question to some of you that simply cannot stomach this script? Do you recall at what point -- exactly, if you can -- that you decided, "I can not read any further into this script!" -- and you set it down. That might also be an interesting discussion point to examine later -- as it seems there are several people still reading.

Hard to say. I was like Jeff and was struggling from the very beginning.

Got to page 20 and had to put it down the first time. Then managed to make it to page 40 or so on the next sitting, by which point I felt I was sinking deeper and deeper into a mire with it.

It started to pick up in pace after that, but I didn't care about anything or anyone in the script, so although it got slightly more readable I never felt engaged by it at all.

It was an interesting combination of elements, but non of them were particularly interesting. It felt very middle of the road. Philostate is too boring to be a fantasy character, but not dark or layered enough for a noir character. The world was fantastical in appearance, but was peopled by very human characters.

It also felt like a very young script. It reminded me of fan fiction, like the writer had got his favourite films and books in front of him and just put them all together.

I might try and read it again with a fresh pair of eyes in a few weeks. I think expectation can play a huge role in how you perceive a work of art. I was expecting "genius" and then came across what seemed like a very ordinary story told in an interesting, but somewhat derivative world.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Philostrate is...not dark or layered enough for a noir character.

While I do not agree with you on every point, Dec, I am totally on board with you here.

To me, it is the biggest weakness in a script that I otherwise like quite a bit -- it is where some of the comparisons to Blade Runner (mentioned earlier) completely break down.

Where Deckard had so much going on under the surface -- so many conflicts -- Philostrate pretty much plays the generic hero throughout.

There is a lot that could be done with this character the script fails to explore.

But then we are moving into "R" and away from "PG-13".

Is it possible this was a deliberate decision?

Quoted from bert While I do not agree with you on every point, Dec, I am totally on board with you here. To me, it is the biggest weakness in a script that I otherwise like quite a bit -- it is where some of the comparisons to Blade Runner (mentioned earlier) completely break down. Where Deckard had so much going on under the surface -- so many conflicts -- Philostrate pretty much plays the generic hero throughout. There is a lot that could be done with this character the script fails to explore. But then we are moving into "R" and away from "PG-13". Is it possible this was a deliberate decision?

There's quite a lot of gore in the script as it stands, so I wouldn't say it was a deliberate decision. I just think the writer is better at working with visuals, rather than characters. He was just out of Uni when he wrote this, living in LA. I think it shows heavily in his writing. I just don't feel he's ever experienced that Noiry despair.

Neil Jordan is capable of bringing out more of the darkness. In some ways his attachment to this script is fitting. His output has been mixed to say the least. Some great films, some disasters.

This film looks a major risk to me, which is quite fun in a way. I'm surprised that New Line/Warner are willing to take a risk with something like this that has no ready made fanbase. It's good to see that New Line are still capable of treading a slightly off beat path. Dark City was a great film, better than the Matrix in some ways. Maybe they can repeat the magic.

Well, I just want to say that this one just keeps getting better for me.

I feel that I connect with Philostrate. The job he does, he's betwixt-between what he wants to do and the societal structures he must uphold in his position. He wasn't even able to experienced love on an open level, but had to sneak around because it was generally considered unacceptable behavior.

A note on technique:

page 14 bottom

clever use of V.O.
as Dame speaks about Guinever Cartier (to perform for the Faerie  Right's Lobby) this transports us magically into the next scene.

Kind of like a verbal premonition of what's to come.

Page 17

I note that the writer chose not to capitalize or use any kind of emphatic mark here:

A signature reveals it to be Tourmaline's

Also, (need to go back and check the page) there are stars down the right side of the page in one particular scene. Does anyone know what there intended purpose is?

Note here on

Page 21

Alcandre plucks a red fruit from Rupert's skin. The cat
MEWS harshly, leaps from his arms and darts into the shadows.
Alcandre turns the red fruit over in his fingers and grins.

That there's a level at which there is a connection of sympathetic feeling in the nervous system of the cat.

It's expressed by the pain resulting from the picking of the cherry.

I'm relating this to levels of awareness. For instance, when we cut our hair, or our nails, we don't experience it as pain. We think of hair and nails as pretty much dead things, yet they're not.

I found the twining aspect interesting also from the perspective that it feels like it goes against what is morally correct. I am reminded about a cat-dog creature (this is a real science story) that was created. I was using that idea in a story that is still in the cooker. Well, it didn't live. And why? I think I know the answer.

Here:
ALCANDRE
Well, there are old wives' tales.
Mostly hogwash. The Selkies say
faerie blood can be a potent
aphrodisiac. Some Eastern legends
say it's a cure for werewolfism.
And there are some Elvish gypsies
who still believe it could be somehow
treated or diluted into a psychotropic
drug that promotes visions. Hogwash.

Information dump. But it's OK. It depends upon how it's handled.

I think this is a splendidly painted story with more than just some words clunked down on the page. I feel that a lot of care and attention went into every bit of it and I don't agree with Jeff, that the writer is trying to be too hip.

My personal feelings are that it's not about being hip, but just about being.

OK, that's it for now.

Sandra

Interesting how we all can see things so differently Sandra.

I personally could have got over the slow read if the main character Philostrate had been more likable. I didn't like him at all. I didn't connect with him and I thought a lot of his actions were stupid even.

I didn't really like the main character all that much but what saved this for me was the character of Vignette because I did like her and I did care about her.  So once she started to be a major player I kind of got into it.

What really turned me off with this script was sort of the same thing dec said.  I'm a big fan of Prachett and this tried to be like Prachett but it was completely missing the wit.