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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Overall ideas Vs specific scenes... Moderators: George Willson
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Tommyp
Posted: December 3rd, 2009, 9:11pm Report to Moderator
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When I write, I think of the big picture. I think of how I want my characters to start, and how they will have changed by the end.

I find it easy to set up a world and to see what characters are going to affect each other as the story progresses.

When it comes down to HOW they change, or affect each other, I often get stuck. Stuck on specific scenes or situations. As I said, I know how the scene will end, but it’s hard to get there.

Is this a lack of experience thing? Is this normal for all writers? Is this a left brain/right brain thing? Are some writers better at big picture stuff while others can work out specific scenes well?


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George Willson
Posted: December 3rd, 2009, 9:31pm Report to Moderator
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Completely normal. I've had that sort of block with two stories, and they both turned out well. With the first Fempiror, I knew EXACTLY how the story needed to begin and how it needed to end. I had the first and third acts in their entirety planned out. The second act, however. That was another story altogether. It took me probably 3 or 4 years to finally work out that middle act.

I had another one with the same issue called The Armor of Belial, and it's a common comment that it has a strong beginning and a strong end, but was weak in the middle. I even asked for middle help to get an idea of where to go with it. I finally was able to tackle it was it was disturbing to have a mostly complete story that was only 60 pages long.

So don't fret. It does happen. Just stick with it and you get your middle.


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mcornetto
Posted: December 3rd, 2009, 9:33pm Report to Moderator
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I would say it's pretty normal.  Sometimes what you write comes together with very little effort as a finished script.  Other times you have to struggle.  I'm coming to believe if you have to struggle too much then perhaps you should rethink things - or maybe move onto another scene or another script.  

Sometimes if I get stuck on a scene I just force myself to write it mechanically - even if I have to sketch parts of it.  Then I move on until I finish.   I can always go back and rewrite it when I'm done.  What's really funny is that a fair percentage of time, when I go back, I find I don't need to rewrite it at all.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: December 3rd, 2009, 11:09pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Tommyp
When I write, I think of the big picture. I think of how I want my characters to start, and how they will have changed by the end.

I find it easy to set up a world and to see what characters are going to affect each other as the story progresses.

When it comes down to HOW they change, or affect each other, I often get stuck. Stuck on specific scenes or situations. As I said, I know how the scene will end, but it’s hard to get there.

Is this a lack of experience thing? Is this normal for all writers? Is this a left brain/right brain thing? Are some writers better at big picture stuff while others can work out specific scenes well?


A strong writer needs to learn to think forwards, backwards, upside down and sideways from every angle. That's our challenge and I do believe that however we think, we're all going to have some kind of weakness that challenges us.

I agree Tommy in that the balance between small picture details and big picture details will often be at odds within the writer's mind and balancing these aspects will be part of balancing the story as a whole unified picture.

My own personal challenge is developing the method that works best for me personally and that's why I'm always exploring and working in different ways.

The difficulties you describe don't sound much different than the difficulties that I experience except for the fact that I find it difficult to initially "get that big picture".

It feels like a whole big ordeal and a process and it is, but what I'm finding is that I love that ordeal and process and the most important thing to me are the characters.

They are the ones I think that wind up telling the story and not me.

I develop some kinds of constructs and they say, "What does Sandra know anyways? Let's have fun with her!"

If I can really engage with them and what's happening, then things change and I learn a lot and it's a great pleasure.

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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James McClung
Posted: December 3rd, 2009, 11:10pm Report to Moderator
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I've struggled with this quite a bit but I've been getting better. Honestly, I don't think every scene has to facilitate a character's arc. That's not to say it's only a matter of beginning and end. I think you need a handful of scenes in between, ideally two or three, maybe more, that send a character off in different directions to get to where you want to be in the end.

Also, although my approach varies from script to script, I don't think a given character has to change entirely from beginning to end. I've taken to ending some of my scripts when the character is on their way to changing. People don't change from one experience in real life. I think a gradual change is much more realistic. That's just what works for me though and I don't think it's an approach everyone should take. I don't think any book would tell you to do this. Like I said, it depends.


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: December 3rd, 2009, 11:22pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from James McClung
I've struggled with this quite a bit but I've been getting better. Honestly, I don't think every scene has to facilitate a character's arc. That's not to say it's only a matter of beginning and end. I think you need a handful of scenes in between, ideally two or three, maybe more, that send a character off in different directions to get to where you want to be in the end.

Also, although my approach varies from script to script, I don't think a given character has to change entirely from beginning to end. I've taken to ending some of my scripts when the character is on their way to changing. People don't change from one experience in real life. I think a gradual change is much more realistic. That's just what works for me though and I don't think it's an approach everyone should take. I don't think any book would tell you to do this. Like I said, it depends.


I completely agree, James!!! I love working the characters first and foremost, but I don't believe they need to have this arc of change. Sometimes characters don't change and I think it's good and right too, that that happens. The negative aspects are just as valid as positive aspects and perhaps when meaning is found in them, we can see that "no change" is as good as what we perceived as "desirable change".

Sandra



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George Willson
Posted: December 4th, 2009, 5:56am Report to Moderator
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I've read a scene should do at least one of three things: build character (whether that facilitates an arc or not is your decision), forward the plot, or get a laugh. More ideally, a scene should do at least two of those, if not all three.

And a character doesn't need to change within the course of a story. The point there will be that we understand why he didn't change. The change stories occur from a series of circumstances that typically spring from one life-changing incident.

Look at it this way: when you marry someone, your life changes, but that event isn't what changed your life. That event was facilitated by meeting said Mr. or Miss Right however long before the wedding, and it is the series of events between the meeting and the wedding that really made the life change. The wedding is simply the culmination of those events.


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 4th, 2009, 12:30pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Sandra Elstree.


I completely agree, James!!! I love working the characters first and foremost, but I don't believe they need to have this arc of change. Sometimes characters don't change and I think it's good and right too, that that happens. The negative aspects are just as valid as positive aspects and perhaps when meaning is found in them, we can see that "no change" is as good as what we perceived as "desirable change".

Sandra


Characters don't have to change.

You can have steadfast characters who resolutely fail to change. What happens then is that the audience changes its perception and undergo the charcater arc themselves, if you like.

Kiss me Deadly is a good example of this.

Redbelt, the recent David Mamet film, is another example.


Edit: One thing to be vary of though is that it is very easy to lose control of the heart of the film if you do this. I think people (audience members) naturally levitate towards those people trying to change in some way, so if you have a minor character with a character arc, the audience will often prefer them to the main character.

You can see the importance of the character arc even in reality TV, how often do the audience vote for the contestants who have "gone on a journey" during the show and changed into something else.

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Scar Tissue Films  -  December 4th, 2009, 6:33pm
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George Willson
Posted: December 4th, 2009, 12:33pm Report to Moderator
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They don't have to change for the positive either. In The Godfather, Michael Corleone went from honest Army kid to taking over the "family business." At the beginning of the story, he never would have lied to Kay, but in the end he was able to look her in the eye and lie. He changed, but I would not say it was for the better. Kay, of course, realizes this herself as she sees one of Corleone clients call him "Godfather" as the door closes at the end of the movie.

Nothing says they have to become better people. They can be steadfast, turn into saints, or become scoundrels. As long as you story supports it and the audience understands why, it's all good.


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Dreamscale
Posted: December 4th, 2009, 8:06pm Report to Moderator
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One addition to George's 3 reasons for a scene...

Get a truly horrific reaction.

Obviously, we're talking about horror if this comes into play, but it's really very much like #3 in George's post.

Tommy, I beleive people concieve their script ideas in one of two ways...either big picture first, or small details first.  Doesn't matter which comes first.  Either way can yield a great script.  BUT, if you start with the small idea first, you'll need a number of those and a way to tie it into a big picture scenario.

Rock it!

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George Willson
Posted: December 5th, 2009, 12:34am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
One addition to George's 3 reasons for a scene...

Get a truly horrific reaction.

Obviously, we're talking about horror if this comes into play, but it's really very much like #3 in George's post.


Brilliant. The reaction would be far more appropriate when taking horror, though it can't hurt to mix it up a little in any script for a chuckle.

Of course, you can write in sequences as well. Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote musicals in the form of scene-song-change, meaning they'd advance the story, then sing a song to emphasize the character's emotion, then change to a new scene. I've been amazed at how this translates to most genres.

Slasher: Scene-Kill-Change
Action: Scene-Big Action-Change
Porn: Scene-Sex-Change
Comedy: Scene-Punchline-Change
Horror: Scene-Scare-Change
Thriller: Scene-Discovery-Change

Granted, that's really watered down for a lot of movies, but you'll see it hapen like that in a lot of cases. In an action film, a guy walks into a bar and chats with someone about the plot. Then there's a huge action sequence where he eventually escapes the bar. Then we move on to the next scene. I would almost bet most of us do this subconsciously.


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