Well, the new guy isn't shy.  I'll give him that much.

What you will find, Angel, given more time here, is that there are roughly two camps on these boards.

There is the stern, old-school -- those that believe unconventional formatting, loose structure, and plot points that do not occur on a certain page will get you ash-canned by any potential producer.

And there is a tentative new wave, that believes screenwriting as a medium of expression is a bit more fluid than that, and open to experimentation, provided there is a firm grasp of the basics (important!) and a compelling story to back it up.

No matter where you go, inside or outside of the internet, this debate is unresolved and it depends entirely upon who you ask.  During the occasional clashes between these two camps, both make sound points that are hard to ignore.

And I will go out on a limb and say that members of this new wave comment less.  They do not necessarily read less, but they comment less.

Which is why you find so many format police.  Commenting on format is easy.  Certainly easier than breaking down a story.  And you can do it after only a few pages.  That is why so many do it.  I am not a fan, and I find it lazy, but I do understand it.  So should you.  Bitching about that ain't going to change anything.

You seem to read a lot of comments, Angel, and to you -- and everyone else who has read this far -- I give you a little advice as a board veteran.

The posts a member generates are more often than not a reflection of their work.  If you deem their critiques worthy, perhaps that is an author you should check out when in the mood to read something.

By these methods, you will find yourself more often satisfied with what you have read.  And you may very well generate return reads for yourself from people who you are actually interested in hearing what they have to say.  

Bert,

Thank you for the insight on this site.  I appreciate it.

No...I'm not shy.  I try not to be too abrasive but, sometimes I fail miserably.  I apologize to everyone in advance.

I'm honestly just looking for a virtual writers group.  There aren't many screenwriters where I live and those that I have met are completely unwilling to exchange scripts.  Also, they're extremely pretentious.

...anyway..

I not here to just piss everyone off, really.  I hoestly want to make sure that this is the right place for me, that's all.  If I come off a little confrontational it's not personal, it's just who I am.  I'll try to rein it in, but no promises.

Angel,

I agree with what you are saying. I think there are a couple of issues:

1. There's always going to be the situation that people will be less inclined to read a badly formatted script. If the writer can't be bothered running a spell-check etc before they post, it's less likely that people will spend what can be hours out of their day to analyse the story in detail.

Writers are naturally close to their story and can read it through the mistakes. The person who has picked it up for the first time can find it a tremendous struggle to get through. Some people literally can't stand it long enough to even comment on the story.

Also, don't forget that people's time is precious and that their help is given freely. Even someone just pointing out typos is doing you a favour.

2. I have to say that I've always seen people comment on the story as well. That's been my experience on the site anyway. I've always been pleased with the quality of criticism.

I presume that you fell victim to one of our more aggressively proper format guardians...I'd take their comments for what they are and not get too worried about it. Once you've been around for a bit longer I think you'll find that you'll get more of the kind of criticism that you are looking for.

Rick

Quoted from AngelofDeath I'm sorry, Ghostwriter22.  Did you misinterpret my intentions for this post...?  Allow me to make it perfectly clear for you and everyone else.  This is supposed to be a place where story-tellers come to work on their craft, yes...?  So let's fucking act like it!

There's a way that a group of story-tellers working on their craft are supposed to act?  I thought when you got a bunch of creative people together you could expect just about anything to happen.  I know that if I were involved with a creative group of people I would expect the freedom to act when and how the moment moved me.  I wouldn't expect that there would be too many restrictions.   I could be wrong though and it wouldn't be the first time.

Ah, Bert,

Always the wiser. That's why he doesn't read any of my stuff. He doesn't like my posts. Deletes em' all the time. I see some missing from last night again!

How many of these am I allowed before I'm officially put in "Time-Out"?

Quoted from jwent6688 Ah, Bert, Always the wiser. That's why he doesn't read any of my stuff. He doesn't like my posts. Deletes em' all the time. I see some missing from last night again! How many of these am I allowed before I'm officially put in "Time-Out"?

I thought we already put you there.  That's where all the four year olds on the site belong. :-P

Too the Grim Reaper...

Quoted from AngelofDeath I'm sorry, Ghostwriter22.  Did you misinterpret my intentions for this post...?  I call it the way I see it.   Allow me to make it perfectly clear for you and everyone else.  This is supposed to be a place where story-tellers come to work on their craft, yes...?  So let's fucking act like it!  The only thing you made clear is your arrogance.  You just got here, a record 25 post average per day... a feat rivaling the mental powers of spoon bender, "Uri Gellar."  I highly suggest you spend more time getting familiar with this community to get a better understanding. I in no way shape or form implied anyone here was anything less than a story-teller.  My problem is the veiled, disrespect, contempt, bullying, and ridiculously rigid dictum of structure over story in the guise of "format doctors".  The blinding adherence to the prevalent mentality that to review a script is to tear apart an aspiring writers formatting, grammar and spelling...things that can easily be fixed with software, proofreading and a good editor, none of which should be the focus of this site, IMO.  That's your opinion, everyone doesn't see the world according to you. If I'm wrong, and this is where all the burned out Hollywood editors go when they've out lived their time in Tinsel town to pick on newbie writers, then I'll gladly steer clear of this site.  Is that the case here?  I can't speak for you.  You're a big boy, make-up your own fuckin' mind.

Ghostwriter

ScarTissueFilms

I just uploaded a script.  Hasn't been posted yet, so no, I haven't fallen victim to anyone, but...I'm sure it'll happen.

Absolutely agree that horrendous formatting and grammar will turn the majority of people off.  I've even had to stop reading a few scripts...so I'm guilty of that as well.

My observation has been that the dominant theme of most reviews is format-policing, not story related.  Again I haven't read all the posts on this site, it was just overwhelmingly prevelant.

Quoted from mcornetto I know that if I were involved with a creative group of people I would expect the freedom to act when and how the moment moved me.  I wouldn't expect that there would be too many restrictions.

Good luck with that...I hope the restraining order isn't too severe.

Ok, guys.  Let's calm things down a bit.

AOD,

The truth is that this is an unstructured environment.  It can definitely teach you a lot and you can grow very much as a screenwriter here, but it isn't going to force you to learn.  It is what you make of it and as such it really has no limits.

If you are looking for a more structured place to learn your craft, where people have rules about how they are supposed to comment and give feedback, then this is not and will probably never be the place for you.

Hope that helps.

Michael

Quoted from ghost and_ghostie gal You just got here, a record 25 post average per day... a feat rivaling the mental powers of spoon bender, "Uri Gellar."  I highly suggest you spend more time getting familiar with this community to get a better understanding.

Ahhh, there it is...the Mega Poster attitude that spending all day posting somehow makes you better than everyone else -- was wondering when that was gonna rear its ugly head.

At the risk of drawing your ire, Angel (can we get a real name from you? Because I can't honestly call you 'angel' if you're here long term...maybe Mr. Death?), I'm going to disagree with you. I see you kinda went off on one when Ghost did that, but I can take it.

Obviously, story is the key to any good screenplay. What's the saying...a turd, no matter how well-polished, is still a turd. But you have to start with good format. It's the foundation on which you build a good script. If a guy recites an epic poem, even one filled with most incredible story, action and characters, but he does it with a dodgy accent and a speech impediment, those are what the listener will find himself focusing on. Anyway, moving away from slightly suspect analogies...

You seem to have passion. That's good. You also seem to be a bit of a dick. That's okay. But I really don't appreciate you blasting people, and I include myself in this, who comment on scripts, genuinely attempting to help the writer, and focus on format. Sometimes, particularly when it's clear that the writer is a newcomer to the craft, it's actually the BEST thing to do. Even the most naturally talented driver shouldn't get on the open road until they know how to handle a car (damn, another analogy). I don't know if you saw it, but there was a script that went up the other day called 'One Last Visit'. I read the first page, highlighted and dissected what I took to be formatting errors, and then rewrote the page for the guy in a cleaner, leaner way to show him the difference.

Was that contemptuous? Was that disrespectful and bullying? I don't think so. I was genuinely trying to help the guy. He hasn't replied yet, but so what? Maybe he read it, and maybe it helped him. It took me about twenty minutes to do, twenty minutes I gave freely and with no expectation of a return read (and a promise of a follow-up read if he reposted a better formatted script), but I was happy to do it. Apparently, I've committed some sort of sin.

If I want to focus on format, I will. If I think it needs commenting on, I'll comment on it. If it DOESN'T need commenting on, that's a great sign - it means it's not an issue. Now, I try to balance reviews to cover as much as possible, but I always include comments on the writing and format, even if it's just 'it was great'. But that's not the point. When I'm writing a review here, I don't think I should be expected to write it to your, or anyone else's standards. And I don't appreciate you telling me how to review. I'm a story-teller, and I genuinely hope that one day I'll discover the Next Big Thing here (or even maybe just a Quite Big Thing...or maybe just a Thing). But I also comment on format. And you know what? That's my right.

C'mon bitch, bring it on.

JonnyBoy,

Bring what on?  I agree with almost everything you said.  I am a dick.  No arguments here...but only if you draw my ire.  I'm not saying format is to be overlooked...at no point did I say that.  I absolutely agree that if it's not even attempted...reading a script is extremely difficult.  I'm just as guilty of halting a read if I can't discern what the writer is writing, myself.

What I've noticed is that format seems to be King here and story was rarely if ever touched on.  Again, I haven't read every post, and don't intend to.  Hence the reason for this thread.  I wanted to make sure my initial assessment was wrong -- or at least wrong enough to justify staying here.

Quoted from JonnyBoy I don't know if you saw it, but there was a script that went up the other day called 'One Last Visit'. I read the first page, highlighted and dissected what I took to be formatting errors, and then rewrote the page for the guy in a cleaner, leaner way to show him the difference.

This not is what I'm talking about.  This is helpful...and extremely kind of you.  What I'm talking about is the attitude that one is a shit writer if they can't get the format just right...if their comma use is suspect (totally guilty of that)...if apostrophes have their way with the writer instead of the other way around.  Everyone makes typos and appreciates a helpful soul pointing them out.  Again not what I'm talking about.

If anyone is butt-hurt by my brining this topic up...maybe you should think about that.

Ha, here we go then.  Angel of Death wants to be the Great Pumpkin, the Grand Poobah, the new "Big Deal"...and he's off to a splendid start.

So, Angel, I'm a bit confused here. You talk about reviewing scripts based on story, etc, yet when you reviewed my script, the vast majority of your "review" was simply attacking me as a person.  I don't think you mentioned a single thing about the story or the plot.  You said you didn't like the characters.  You said you didn't like the dialogue.  That was about it.  Did your review help me in any way?  What do you think?

Am I missing something here?  In fact, I've seen numerous reviews from you that are 1 or 2 lines long...period.  Are we to use your reviews as a mold for how all reviews should be written?

I sure fucking hope not.

In considering the feedback of my last One Week Challenge excercise, nearly everyone of the comments given had something to do with story, characters or dialogue. (Maybe one about formatting, and even that was positive.)

I think the feedback (any feedback) from a source other than my wife (who refuses to read anything to do with zombies) is inherently valuable, like it or hate it, harsh or gentle-it's all helpful.

Angel,

It's not what you're saying, it's just the way that you are saying it.

You've only been here a minute and are effectively criticising everyone who takes time out of their day to review a script...people who have been a big help to others down the years as well.

Essentially all you are asking is this: "Are you people really good enough to justify me spending any time with you?".

Like Mcornetto said, this place is unstructured, which means that you make of it what you want. If you want people to concentrate on the story, you can simply mention that in your posts. You can specify what the script is supposed to be about, the emotional impact you were going for in certain scenes etc etc and ask for people's opinions on whether or not you succeeded and how it could be improved.

Rick.