Interesting.  Thanks.

From Victor Miller, screenwriter of the original Friday the 13th, regarding it's theme or moral value...

"..when we started out to make Friday the 13th, we did not have any social themes in mind, but we were quite obviously creatures of that period and the zeitgeist demanded that the plot come out as it did. Rather than a condemnation of teens, I think it had more to do with what happens when you are consumed by your own delight...that was the first sin. Lust causes others to suffer because it is so thoughtless. And, by the same token, revenge punishes the guilty and the innocent no matter how justifiable.

--------

I like the theme of Friday the 13th, how the entire story begins with one innocent, tragic young boy who drowned senselessly, sending his mother into a schizophrenic rage, driving her to murder not only those who were responsible, but all those who fit the same typology-- the young, attractive and lusty. There is definitely a warning here, a campfire story intended to both terrify and titillate the young and remind them of their own mortality. Perhaps one of the reasons 'Friday the 13th' has been so enduring is that contrary to what Roger Ebert may think, it does have something to say."

From a practical writing angle, Stephen King touches on this brilliantly in On Writing. At some point I'm going to do a thread that distils out all the awesome and really useful things King says on a wide range of wriitng topics, but I'll just quote this one for now.

I know King's focus is on prose, but to me the writing process is the writing process no matter what medium it's in (to that end I've swapped 'novel' for 'film', 'book' for 'script' and 'readers' for 'viewers'):


"Writing and literature classes can be annoyingly preoccupied by (and pretensious about) theme, approaching it as the most sacred of sacred cows, but (don't be shocked) it's really no big deal. If you write a film, spend weeks and then months catching it word by word, you owe it to both the script and to yourself to lean back (or take a long walk) when you've finished and ask yourself why you bothered - why you spent all that time, why it seemed so important. In other words, what's it all about, Alfie?

When you write a script, you spend day after day scanning and identifying the trees. When you're done, you have to step back and look at the forest. Not every script has to be loaded with symbolism, irony or musical language, but it seems to me that every script - at least every one worth reading - is about something. Your job during or just after the first draft is to decide what something or somethings yours is about. Your job in the second draft - one of them, anyway - is to make that something even more clear. This may necessitate some big changes and revisions. The benefits to you and your viewer will be clearer focus and a more unified story. It hardly ever fails.

[long example about The Stand]

I should close this little sermonette with a word of warning - starting with the questions and thematic concerns is a recipe for bad fiction. Good fiction always begins with story and progresses to theme; it almost never begins with theme and progresses to story...but once your basic story is on paper, you need to think about what it means and enrich your following drafts with your conclusions. To do less is to rob your work (and eventually your viewers) of the vision that makes each tale you write uniquely your own."

For me, that's invaluable, practical advice. It's something you can actually utilise - go back to one of your scripts, read it through, and try and work out what you were trying to say. Once you'd found that, whatever it is, just work to tease it out in every scene, on every page, and it'll give you added focus and richness.

That's a fantastic quote, Jon. Thanks for copying that in. A real insight into creative process.

I think it depends largely on the writer whether or not the theme comes before the horse.  I don't think it's a black and white enough sort of thing to say one is better than the other.

I do know that a lot of actual screenwriting jobs are on assignment.  And on assignment you can be given specific themes before you write the script.

An example of this, and maybe not the best example, would be the series Buffy where one of the staff writers states this about the process.  "First, the writers talked about the emotional issues facing Buffy Summers and how she would confront them through her battle against evil supernatural forces."  

I know this doesn't say "theme" specifically but deciding what a show is going to be about based upon an emotional issue of one character and projecting that emotional issue onto a supernatural battle is essentially saying that's the theme of the show.  

Jeff,

Like James said there are different kinds of films.

To pigeon hole them, there are essentially two polar ends of the scale.

      Pure Entertainment...............Pure Art.

Cat having a piss on Youtube..... Bill Viola

Then everything else in between.

Generally speaking, the further it pushes to the right, the more thematic content you would expect.

Again generally speaking, certain genres tend to have less thematic content, and others more.

Less: Horror, Comedy, Action
More: Drama, Historical.

This is one of the reasons why certain genres are often seen as "ghetto" genres and drama tends to be seen as the highest form of Cinema when it comes to critics and award givers.

As regards the films you've picked, many are horror. Horror, perhaps more than any other genre is defined by its reaction to societal norms and fears of the time. So you tend to get a lot of implicit themes in then that reflect the time period (fear of nuclear war, radiation, technology..whatever).

If you look up the psychological reasons people actually watch horror in the first place, you'll also find a lot of recurring themes. For instance it's been shown that people like to watch types of people they don't like suffering...pretty grim and a very strong theme for a horror film in itself. This results in certain characters and themes that tend to be seen often...virgins like to see the slut suffer, geeks like to watch the jock get cut up etc.

Texas Chain Saw Massacre:

Apocalyptic vision of America's future. Technology has replaced the work force, reducing them to savage psychopaths who become cannibals. Everything is crumbled and destroyed..even the graveyard (no respect for even the dead) and thr family is reduced to having Leatherface as a wife, and the lunatic grandfather as a paternal figure.

Importance of theme. It's basically an exploitation piece, and relies more on the unique characters, tone and energy than the theme, but I think it's survival over time owes at least something to the themes....particularly as it's become more critically accliamed as the years have passed by. Speaks to fears about the future.

The Omen:

Parents fear for their children (will they be good,?in particular)..taken to extremes. Also strong themes of morality and faith.

Importance of theme. High. One of the best horror films ever...partly the theme, partly the mix of genres and ideas. Works as horror, mystery thriller and drama. Asks unsettling questions about children and the lenghts we'll go to in the name of faith.

Outlaw Josie Wales

Anti-war, revisionist western. I'll let Clint do the talking:

"As for Josey Wales, I saw the parallels to the modern day at that time. Everybody gets tired of it, but it never ends. A war is a horrible thing, but it's also a unifier of countries. . . . Man becomes his most creative during war. Look at the amount of weaponry that was made in four short years of World War II�the amount of ships and guns and tanks and inventions and planes and P-38s and P-51s, and just the urgency and the camaraderie, and the unifying. But that's kind of a sad statement on mankind, if that's what it takes."

Importance: High.


Friday 13th

Themes are thin. Revenge. Basic exploitation flick.

Importance of theme: minimal. Technically incompetent film, poor on almost every level yet enjoyable in some way that's hard to put your finger on.

True Romance:

Can't remember it too well. Themes weren't particularly strong as I recall. Love and adventure type story. Usual Tarantino themes of loyalty present.

Importance of theme: Minimal. Relies on fast pace, dialogue and interesting characters.


Scream

Self aware parody of horror in general, sending up most of the horror themes I talked about above. Fails to be quite as clever as it tried to be and fell back into the same sort of stuff it parodied.

Importance of theme: Fairly high. Premise is kind of based on theme itself. The name, iconic Scream Mask, humour and action all important as well. It's awareness of horror themes and tropes was its principal selling point.

Hostel has been done. It failed as a film for me because it tried to include some interesting themes but Roth didn't have the talent as a writer or director to deal with them. Its success came down to a strong ppremise, very powerful violence scenes and a strong marketing campaign using the name of Tarantino to give it credibility.

Not seen Eden Lake yet.

Now that I've finished that and looked up the films on Rotten Tomates, I'd say it's interesting that the films that have stronger themes are generally considered a lot better than the ones without by both critics and audiences.

The one exception is True Romance.

The two lowest rated films are Friday the 13th...the thinnest of films in regards theme and Hostel which has themes but which are incoherently presented.

OK, Rick, I appreciate your posts and views.  I hope you know I think you're both a cool guy and a very well read, smart guy, as well.

Maybe I just don't have the level of intellect to be able to have these discussions with someone of your intellect...and I mean that very sincerely.  I'm at a loss with most of what you said...not everything, but definitely most.

My quick take on inherent themes for these movies are as follows...

TCM - Survival horror.  Classic fish out of water theme.  Blind trust gets you in trouble.

The Omen - Evil is real and takes all shapes and forms.  Good vs Evil...good doesn't always win.  Bad shit happens to good people.  Classic God vs Satan age old war.

The Outlaw Josey Wales - War brings out the worst in people.  Revenge.  Birds of a different feather can definitely flock together.  The lines between good and bad are very subjective.  Classic anti hero.  Still waters run deep.  Don't judge a book by it's cover.

Friday the 13th - Revenge.  Insanity.  Everything is not as it seems.  We reap what we sough, and pay the price for those who walked before us.

True Romance - True love can conquer all.  Don't judge a book by it's cover.  Good vs. evil...sometimes the lines are blurred.

Scream - Not really sure...

Hostel - Survival horror.  Classic fish out of water theme.  Be careful what you wish for.  Don't judge a book by it's cover.  Evil is real and comes in all shapes and forms.

Eden Lake - Survival horror.  Evil is real and comes in all shapes and forms.  Don't underestimate your adversary.  Family is everything.

Hope that makes sense, otherwise, as I said earlier, i guess I really don't understand what theme is, even though I'm an English major with a 4.0 in all my Major classes in college...but...yes...that was a long time ago.

Maybe a part of the issue here is definitional clarity.  What exactly is theme to you?

Here is the definition of theme from a textbook on essays about literature.

"A theme is an idea about the world, expressed by a literary text, of general importance to people."

That is essentially the way that I see theme.  A literary text, or a film, is a persuasive argument serving a central thesis that is of general importance.

To the above I would add that the theme should be "strong".  What I mean by this is that it should take a strong stance on the issue it raises.  

So, for example, my revised statement of theme for Black Swan would be that spiritual transcendence in art has been bastardized by the imposition of a rigid, corrupt hierarchical structure and that in order to achieve physical transcendence to fame and recognition in today's society, artists must abandon any hope of spiritual transcendence, ultimately dooming themselves to unfulfilled lives.

"Spiritual transcendence", "corrupt hierarchies", "fame and recognition", and so on, are not themes in themselves.  A theme is a thesis.  A theme is an argument.

That's the way I see things.  How does this fit, or differ, with everyone else's views?

I think you're right, Chris, in that the definition is what's creating so many problems.

I see theme as a universal "thing" that is brought about by plot, story, action, and dialogue.  It is universal, always there, and open to interpretation.  It can vary, based on how deep or how hard one tries to find it associate it with whatever is being analyzed.
I don't see it how it influences one's like, dislike, or whatever feelings one has, for a certain work of art, literature, or film.

I just don't and I feel inadequate because of it.  I really do, but all these different viewpoints aren't really helping me "see it"...or more importantly "care about it".

Maybe because most of the films I enjoy are what you call "lesser" pictures, dealing with pure visual entertainment.

I don't know and I apologize for being stupid.

I think what's confusing in this discussion is that there's more than one type of theme being talked about here. Theme can mean a varying degree of things to a screen-writer or film-maker.  

There is a single theme, your central theme which is sort of what the movie is about, why it exists.  You kind of need this theme so that the audience feels your movie means something.   The success of a movie usually is proportional to how strongly you present your central theme, how clear it comes through, how relatable it is to the audience (in a perfect world).  The Exorcist: Good vs Evil.    

Then there's supporting themes.  They shouldn't overshadow your central theme, remember you want your central theme to be clear. There can be many of these supporting themes in a film.  The Exorcist: Dealing with Guilt.  Science vs spirituality.

Then there can be stylistic themes in a movie as well.   This is setting your movie at Christmas or on Halloween.  Using the colour blue often. They might or might not be related to what the movie is about but they are themes.   No one has really mentioned them yet but I figured I would bring them up anyway.

Hey Jeff,

What do you think about the definition of theme I have stated above?  If you were to define theme that way, would it encompass something you care about?  

Chris, for me, the theme, so to speak, is unimportant. It's the execution, the production value, the writing, the actions, reactions, dialogue, and characters that either make or break a film.  It's the attention to detail that separates the cream from the crap.

For instance, let's say there has been at least 500 different TCM based movies, 500 Alien based movies, 250 Scream based movies, and another 250 Hostel based movies.

The themes are all the same. The plots are nearly all the same.

It's what differs that either makes or breaks each film.

I watch a lot of low budget, DTV type stuff, and most of them are God awful, and it comes down to the writing...the plotting...the setup, the characters...the dialogue...and of course the action and reactions of the characters.  Budget comes into play in terms of production value and execution, but there are many very low budget flicks that totally work, based on the above.

It doesn't have to be horror either.  The same is true with all genres.

You know, when something is "good" and also has a "good" theme involved, more power to it, but IMO, it doesn't really matter and is far down the list of what makes a good film or script.

I think everyone's not talking about the same sort of movies.  

Dreamscale is talking about Michael Bay.

Heretic is talking about Kubrick.

And I don't mean they are literally talking about those people.

While films do exists for pure entertainment purposes (Dreamscale), they only truly impact their audience or leave a lasting impression if they have a strong theme (Heretic).

The former is more likely to make money, the latter more likely to get acclaim.  

But if you want to write a film that's going to last forever, it needs a strong theme, it needs to affect people.  

How many people are going to be watching Transformers 100 years from now?  Probably a great deal fewer than those who are going to be watching Clockwork Orange with it's strong theme about free-will?  More people will probably still be watching City Lights, even though it's a silent film, but it's has a strong effective theme about what we'll do for love.  City Lights was made in the 1930s and it's still cited today as one of the best examples of screenwriting.  Do you think they'll be saying that about Transformers? No it will be forgotten.

As will most of the other movies mentioned in the list above.

But I have to admit if money is your only measure of success then a theme is not important.  Even Tim Burton said as much when he made his first Batman movie.  

There are only five elements to a story:

Character, setting, conflict, plot and theme. Lose any of them and you don't have much of a story.

Character: Who is in it.
Setting: Where it takes place
Conflict: A struggle between two people or things
Plot: What happens
Theme: What the point is. What is the underlying message of the work as a whole? What are you trying to say?


The message may be about life, society, or human nature. Themes often explore timeless and universal ideas and are almost always implied rather than stated explicitly.

Let's take a popular film that's not particularly high brow but with a strong theme:

Ghost.

A love story/thriller about a guy who has been murdered and is trying to save his wife who is still alive from the advances of the murderer.

The overriding theme may be something like: True Love can conquer even death.

This kind of story is timeless. It impacts emotionally with the love story, it has the conflict with the murderer giving it good pacing and interest, then it has the spiritual theme on top...answering questions about life and death. People leave the cinema feeling great...all is right with the world.

"Another approach to literature stresses that idea, message, and moral are abstractions and that fiction makes the idea concrete through action. In this view many themes exist in any given story but that what gives a story unity is one action of the human condition that is rendered through the various actions of the characters in the story."

In other words, in almost all professional stories, the characters represent certain aspects of a question.

For instance in the Terminator the central question is: Will technology make humans obsolete? Will the robots destroy humanity?

The Terminator character is the argument that it will. It's faster, stronger, more intelligent. It doesn't sleep, it never stops, it has no emotion, it can't be reasoned with.

The other side is that no, it won't...Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese (however you spell it). They offer the argument that humans have something that can overcome machines...love and self-sacrifice.

The film ends with the humans winning.

The overriding message (ie the theme) of the Terminator is that technology will not make humans obsolete because of the strength of the human spirit. Our capacity to love will prove stronger than emotionless machines, no matter how powerful they are.

Terminator 2 changes that:

The theme is explicity stated: "If a Terminator, a machine built for killing, can learn the value of human life....then maybe we can too".

The film is about the value of human life. Sarah Connor has to learn it...she has to be stopped from killing the inventor. She's spent so long preparing for war, she's lost her humanity and has to relearn it.

John Connor spends the whole film teaching Arnie how to be "human" and stops him killing. "You can't just kill people!"..."Why?.  At the end the Terminator tells him that he now knows why humans cry. He has become human, he understands the value of human life.

Every character, every scene, every piece of plot builds to that point. Even the minor ones like the inventor...he agrees to destroy his life's work to save human life...even when he's been shot by the cops..he holds on to the detonator to give them time to leave.

All roads lead to the same point: The theme: The value of human life.

The importance of it is that it creates a story out of plot. Imagine you took all the thematic elements away...John no longer teaches Arnie to be human. No-one tries to stop Sarah killing people. Arnie doesn't say his emotional words at the end. All the story disappears and you just have plot.

It just becomes a film about two robots trying to kill each other for no real reason. Everything that made it a great film disappears.

And that...as I frequently say...is the single biggest difference between pro writers and non-pro writers. Pros construct focused scripts that have themes, pre-pro ones seem like everything is happening at random. There's no unifying meaning..which renders them meaningless...and usually incomprehensible.

When I was in high school(early 80s) the elite crowd, the jocks and the beautiful people, and the rich kids, listened to what was called Top 40. These hits included all the dance music at the time, and this was right before MTV.

Me and my friends listened to rock: Led Zep, Springsteen, the Doors. We told ourselves our music had more depth, more meaning, and the other music was fluff, valueless.

I now understand much better what was going on. Whether the music we listened to actually had depth or meaning was irrelevant, because we weren't musicians and were not the least bit capable of understanding it anyway. We needed that music for other reasons. We needed to be able to say to ourselves that our music was superior, and therefore the elites were shallow.

If I had my mailman transcribe the key moments in his day for a week, and I filmed it, there would be thematic elements. Maybe a woman on his route flirts with him, tempting him to cheat on his wife. Maybe he knows of another mailman who sleeps in his truck: duty vs loyalty. Maybe he fudges his overtime hours: integrity. Maybe there's a house with a nasty dog: courage, perseverance.

Would my film be thematic?

If my neighbor is a cop, and I do the same, I might end up with even more thematic elements, certainly more interesting ones. But is my movie thematic?

In 1917, Winston Churchill left his position as head of the Admiralty in England in disgrace and joined the war in the trenches in France. If I took his diaries concerning the first week of this experience, we would meet many fascinating characters, and encounter abundant themes. Would it be thematic even though it's just a recreation of his diaries?

I don't have the answer to these questions. Whatever working definition you want to go with, I would say that if it applies to pretty much any movie, it's really not any use. Chris, your definition works when you describe theme as an argument, though I'm not saying that's the only way of looking at it. But yes, that works. The director has a main point, an argument, he wants to make, and the purpose of this film is to shape that argument. And it's ok that the theme is revealed at the end, as long as the rest of the film is designed to help make that argument.

It seems it should also be fair to call a movie thematic if it is carefully and deliberately, and powerfully, exploring various themes. Perhaps it is waging an argument.

A final question: is a movie thematic if the director is not consciously dealing with theme, whether as an overriding argument or as an exploration? Considering the Stephen King quote above, and the Sorkin one, that's a fair question.

Look at the movie JFK. The movie is extremely thematic. Stone is trying to hammer home a point for the whole movie, not just about who, but about what forces in our society killed the President. He could have dealt with the same subject, and also drawn the same conclusion about Oswald, but made the film without the thematic argument. It still would have been filled with the same thematic elements, but would not have been thematic without the argument.

The example I gave above about creating a film about my cop neighbor could be similar. Maybe he deals with corruption and organized crime, and a bunch of other issues. Perhaps there are some really unique, interesting characters in his life. And maybe I do I great job simply recreating all of that in film. Is my movie thematic, even though there was no intent on my part for it to be so? If when I'm almost done the film, I start to see what could be a theme, and I add a few more details to the film to flesh it out, does it now become thematic?

Just questions. Thanks!