Does anyone comment on something other than proper format?  Grammar?  Spelling...?  I haven't exactly read every post, but it seems like this site is very "Format-Lawyer" heavy, and a little light on the subject of Story.  I could be wrong here, but I thought that Story was kind of important.

At what point was the idea of Story lost to an incredibly large number of the posters on this site?  Post after post I see people ripping apart a fledgling writer about format, grammar and spelling, but really nothing about the writer's story.  There are so many "technical-gurus" here it makes me wonder if this were all the Hollywood editors go when they're put out to pasture.  Aren't there supposed to be a bunch of "story-tellers" here?

Story is everything...or at least it should be.  Numerous Hollywood screenwriters, some of them Academy Award Winners, echo my sentiments when I say Story is king.  Robert McKee, a Hollywood legend, even wrote a book on it.  So why all the focus on grammar, spelling, and format but almost nothing on Story?

While working as a script analyst for UA and NBC, Robert McKee said that he had seen more than his fair share of well formatted, grammatically correct, perfectly spelled scripts that he referred to as "a script of well-chosen words."  The story, however, usually sucked.  To further this point McKee goes on to say that he had ever written a report like this, he would have been fired:

"Great story!  Grabbed me on page one and me in its embrace.  The first act builds to a sudden climax that spins off into a superb weave of plot and subplot.  Sublime revelations of deep character.  Amazing insight into this society.  Made me laugh, made me cry.  Drove an Act Two climax so moving that I thought the story was over.  And yet, out of ashes of the second act this writer created a third act of such power, such beauty, such magnificence I'm writing this report from the floor.  However, this script is a 270-page grammatical nightmare with every fifth word misspelled.  Dialogue's so tangled Olivier couldn't get his tongue around it.  Descriptions are stuffed with camera directions, sub textural explanations, and philosophical commentary.  It's not even typed in the proper format.  Obviously not a professional writer."

A good story makes a good film possible, while failure to make the story work virtually guarantees disaster.  There are thousands of writers well versed on the mechanics of writing, who can quote (and often do) the exact format that a screenplay should be written in but know fuck all about story.  Coincidentally, most of these writers rarely if ever get optioned.

I think it's great that there are so many "experts" here that have a keen knowledge of format, grammar, and spelling...but isn't that what editors are for?  Isn't this supposed to a site where a bunch of unproduced aspiring screenwriters get together and help each other become better story-tellers?  Or is it really just a bunch of English majors with a working knowledge of screenplay format picking on those that felt that Story was what made a good story?

Which is why I stopped commenting on that stuff a long time ago... If someone asks, I'll go over format and such, but story is the reason we write (I hope). I can fix a badly formatted script in less than an hour in Word, but that won't help if the story sucks.

Most people actually use format as an excuse to stop reading. I read a badly formatted script on here once (some time ago) that was too short, but had potential, and I said that as much at the time too.

This, of course, leads me to the curiosity of who you are there, Angel of Death, since you seem very familiar with us for a newb.

George,

Welcome fellow story-teller!  Good to meet you.

While, I admit, if the story can't make up for the format I have been known to stop reading and am guilty of blaming the format as well.  For that, I apologize, but I'm turing over a new leaf.  Story is everything to me, and that's the focus I personally want to bring to this site should I decide to stay.

As to your curiosity -- I'm no one important really.  I have been reading through posts here for a while and only just recently joined.  Like most every one here I'm just starting out in the industry.  Only had two of my scripts optioned by Indie Production Companies so I haven't really even made a blip on the Indie Movie radar...working on it though.

I did, however, just make the 2010 BlueCat Quarter finals.  I know...who here hasn't made the Quarter finals in one contest or another.  But to me, it's kind of cool.

Quoted from AngelofDeath I did, however, just make the 2010 BlueCat Quarter finals.  I know...who here hasn't made the Quarter finals in one contest or another.  But to me, it's kind of cool.

Congratulations on that.

In my opinion, building the story is the hard part. Anyone can download Celtx and churn out a reasonably formatted screenplay. To turn that screenplay into something worthwhile to read is something else entirely.  

A script that is covered with typos and obvious errors, is at worst unprofessional and begs the question: If this lack of effort is evident in the presentation, why would it be assumed that more effort went into building the story?

Perhaps it's an honest reaction to a Hollywood that is more concerned with form than story.

Quoted from Blakkwolfe A script that is covered with typos and obvious errors, is at worst unprofessional and begs the question: If this lack of effort is evident in the presentation, why would it be assumed that more effort went into building the story?

True, but this is a forum for would-be writers, is it not?  That's what I'm getting at.  No one should submit a poorly formatted, grammatic nightmare.  But that's after the fact, when the writer is submitting it, not while posting it here.  At least that's what I think.

AoD, Well put. I do agree with you in that story is everything. I try to point out typos when I see them in this site only to help the writer make a cleaner draft to be read by pros.

I do however get turned off when the writer hasn't at least made an attempt to learn proper format. I screw it up all the time, but i've read some books.

I won't go passed page ten of a feature if it's badly formatted and the writer hasn't sunk there claws into me yet. If they've gotten an intersesting start, I'll go a little further to see.

When I post my script here, I hope people point out the typos as well as how good/ bad the story is.

Good point Heretic.  Hollywood has become so reliant on the some old writers, the same old directors, and the same old formulas that it's not surprising they've become more concerned with form.

And Blackwolfe -- I absolutely agree with you that building a story is the hard part.  The hardest part in truth.

See I knew story-tellers were here...just waiting to come forward.  Good to see you all.  Hope there's more.

jwent6688,

I hope I'm not coming across as saying typos and the like shouldn't be pointed out, they should, but that shouldn't be the focus of the review, IMO.  I personally am going to post here to get writer feedback on things like, characters, plot, sub-plot, theme, you know...story stuff.  I would be irked to no end if all I got was grammer and spell checked.  That's what I pay my editor for.  Here, I am more concerned with other story-tellers helping me craft my stories, and in turn I'll do the same.

Good, cuz my girlfriends my editor. She's as bad as I am. I need a little help from folks here... Look forward to some of your stuff. I'll focus on story if I read any.

James

Thank you James.  I'll return the favor.

Quoted from AngelofDeath Here, I am more concerned with other story-tellers helping me craft my stories, and in turn I'll do the same.  Whether they write for fun or is serious about making it in "Hollywood," everyone who is a member here is a story-teller.  To insinuate otherwise... is "preposterous.".

Ghostwriter

I always concentrate on the story because that's far more important to me...plus I know that there will be others who give a breakdown of the errors.

I think people concentrate on format issues because it's "safe" ground..there's a right and wrong way to do something and it allows people to show their knowledge and feel secure in what they say.

Everything else is subjective.

Having said that, I must admit I've all but stopped commenting on scripts because it almost seems pointless. Take a look at the DVD reviews of professional films...you get diametrically opposed opinions on them. Taste is subjective. I can read a story and think it is terrible, someone else might love it. If I tell someone to change their story to make it better, it might make it worse to the very guy who was going to buy it for all I know.

I do agree with Blackwolffe to a large extent as well. The craft of telling a good story is far more complicated than learning format and it tends to be a very bad sign when a script isn't at least reasonably formatted.

There's also a major difficulty I find in discussing other people's stories. A lot of the time I don't even think the premise is up to scratch. I might think that there isn't enough conflict, that the stakes aren't high enough, that it's not got a hook or a marketable story, or that it's completly unoriginal...a whole host of things that I think make it fundamentally broken....and when I say fundamentally broken, I mean that it can't be fixed because to fix it you'd need to write a different story entirely.

However, there is a level of arrogance in that in the way that you are putting yourself above someone's elses story that I'm not comfortable with...it's not for any of us to be so outspoken about other people's work in that manner.

I'm sorry, Ghostwriter22.  Did you misinterpret my intentions for this post...?  Allow me to make it perfectly clear for you and everyone else.  This is supposed to be a place where story-tellers come to work on their craft, yes...?  So let's fucking act like it!

I in no way shape or form implied anyone here was anything less than a story-teller.  My problem is the veiled, disrespect, contempt, bullying, and ridiculously rigid dictum of structure over story in the guise of "format doctors".  The blinding adherence to the prevalent mentality that to review a script is to tear apart an aspiring writers formatting, grammar and spelling...things that can easily be fixed with software, proofreading and a good editor, none of which should be the focus of this site, IMO.

If I'm wrong, and this is where all the burned out Hollywood editors go when they've out lived their time in Tinsel town to pick on newbie writers, then I'll gladly steer clear of this site.  Is that the case here?

ScarTissueFilms,

Valid points all of them.  But I wasn't saying that anyone should act like they are above anyone elses story (a fine line I know).  Anytime someone brings up something in a story I'm working on, good or bad, it always gives me another POV.  And, whether or not I agree with them, it still helps me tighten up the story I want to tell.

Rarely if ever, have I had everyone whose read one of my scripts agree with it 100%.  In fact, more often than not, they all disagree on different things.  But that's where the story-teller has to step in and make a decision about what story they want to tell.

The other thing is that it's just your opinion.  One individual's personal take.  It's not gospel.  I know, easier said than done, but, the ability to take opinions with a grain of salt is a much needed asset for a writer.

As harsh it might feel to express a negative opinion about someone's story, I feel helps prepare newbie writers for future writing assignments, where the studio pays the writer to write the story THEY want and not something the writer would normally work on.  As a production company I'm sure you're familiar with this.  It takes a bit of getting used to the idea that the studio telling you to change this, drop that, rewrite that, edit this, etc in no way shape or form means you’re a bad writer.  It just means you can't read the studios minds.

Opinions should be used like any other tool.  To help you craft a better story.  And that's all opinions are.  Tools for the writer to use. At least IMHO.