Does anyone comment on something other than proper format?  Grammar?  Spelling...?  I haven't exactly read every post, but it seems like this site is very "Format-Lawyer" heavy, and a little light on the subject of Story.  I could be wrong here, but I thought that Story was kind of important.

At what point was the idea of Story lost to an incredibly large number of the posters on this site?  Post after post I see people ripping apart a fledgling writer about format, grammar and spelling, but really nothing about the writer's story.  There are so many "technical-gurus" here it makes me wonder if this were all the Hollywood editors go when they're put out to pasture.  Aren't there supposed to be a bunch of "story-tellers" here?

Story is everything...or at least it should be.  Numerous Hollywood screenwriters, some of them Academy Award Winners, echo my sentiments when I say Story is king.  Robert McKee, a Hollywood legend, even wrote a book on it.  So why all the focus on grammar, spelling, and format but almost nothing on Story?

While working as a script analyst for UA and NBC, Robert McKee said that he had seen more than his fair share of well formatted, grammatically correct, perfectly spelled scripts that he referred to as "a script of well-chosen words."  The story, however, usually sucked.  To further this point McKee goes on to say that he had ever written a report like this, he would have been fired:

"Great story!  Grabbed me on page one and me in its embrace.  The first act builds to a sudden climax that spins off into a superb weave of plot and subplot.  Sublime revelations of deep character.  Amazing insight into this society.  Made me laugh, made me cry.  Drove an Act Two climax so moving that I thought the story was over.  And yet, out of ashes of the second act this writer created a third act of such power, such beauty, such magnificence I'm writing this report from the floor.  However, this script is a 270-page grammatical nightmare with every fifth word misspelled.  Dialogue's so tangled Olivier couldn't get his tongue around it.  Descriptions are stuffed with camera directions, sub textural explanations, and philosophical commentary.  It's not even typed in the proper format.  Obviously not a professional writer."

A good story makes a good film possible, while failure to make the story work virtually guarantees disaster.  There are thousands of writers well versed on the mechanics of writing, who can quote (and often do) the exact format that a screenplay should be written in but know fuck all about story.  Coincidentally, most of these writers rarely if ever get optioned.

I think it's great that there are so many "experts" here that have a keen knowledge of format, grammar, and spelling...but isn't that what editors are for?  Isn't this supposed to a site where a bunch of unproduced aspiring screenwriters get together and help each other become better story-tellers?  Or is it really just a bunch of English majors with a working knowledge of screenplay format picking on those that felt that Story was what made a good story?

Which is why I stopped commenting on that stuff a long time ago... If someone asks, I'll go over format and such, but story is the reason we write (I hope). I can fix a badly formatted script in less than an hour in Word, but that won't help if the story sucks.

Most people actually use format as an excuse to stop reading. I read a badly formatted script on here once (some time ago) that was too short, but had potential, and I said that as much at the time too.

This, of course, leads me to the curiosity of who you are there, Angel of Death, since you seem very familiar with us for a newb.

George,

Welcome fellow story-teller!  Good to meet you.

While, I admit, if the story can't make up for the format I have been known to stop reading and am guilty of blaming the format as well.  For that, I apologize, but I'm turing over a new leaf.  Story is everything to me, and that's the focus I personally want to bring to this site should I decide to stay.

As to your curiosity -- I'm no one important really.  I have been reading through posts here for a while and only just recently joined.  Like most every one here I'm just starting out in the industry.  Only had two of my scripts optioned by Indie Production Companies so I haven't really even made a blip on the Indie Movie radar...working on it though.

I did, however, just make the 2010 BlueCat Quarter finals.  I know...who here hasn't made the Quarter finals in one contest or another.  But to me, it's kind of cool.

Quoted from AngelofDeath I did, however, just make the 2010 BlueCat Quarter finals.  I know...who here hasn't made the Quarter finals in one contest or another.  But to me, it's kind of cool.

Congratulations on that.

In my opinion, building the story is the hard part. Anyone can download Celtx and churn out a reasonably formatted screenplay. To turn that screenplay into something worthwhile to read is something else entirely.  

A script that is covered with typos and obvious errors, is at worst unprofessional and begs the question: If this lack of effort is evident in the presentation, why would it be assumed that more effort went into building the story?

Perhaps it's an honest reaction to a Hollywood that is more concerned with form than story.

Quoted from Blakkwolfe A script that is covered with typos and obvious errors, is at worst unprofessional and begs the question: If this lack of effort is evident in the presentation, why would it be assumed that more effort went into building the story?

True, but this is a forum for would-be writers, is it not?  That's what I'm getting at.  No one should submit a poorly formatted, grammatic nightmare.  But that's after the fact, when the writer is submitting it, not while posting it here.  At least that's what I think.

AoD, Well put. I do agree with you in that story is everything. I try to point out typos when I see them in this site only to help the writer make a cleaner draft to be read by pros.

I do however get turned off when the writer hasn't at least made an attempt to learn proper format. I screw it up all the time, but i've read some books.

I won't go passed page ten of a feature if it's badly formatted and the writer hasn't sunk there claws into me yet. If they've gotten an intersesting start, I'll go a little further to see.

When I post my script here, I hope people point out the typos as well as how good/ bad the story is.

Good point Heretic.  Hollywood has become so reliant on the some old writers, the same old directors, and the same old formulas that it's not surprising they've become more concerned with form.

And Blackwolfe -- I absolutely agree with you that building a story is the hard part.  The hardest part in truth.

See I knew story-tellers were here...just waiting to come forward.  Good to see you all.  Hope there's more.

jwent6688,

I hope I'm not coming across as saying typos and the like shouldn't be pointed out, they should, but that shouldn't be the focus of the review, IMO.  I personally am going to post here to get writer feedback on things like, characters, plot, sub-plot, theme, you know...story stuff.  I would be irked to no end if all I got was grammer and spell checked.  That's what I pay my editor for.  Here, I am more concerned with other story-tellers helping me craft my stories, and in turn I'll do the same.

Good, cuz my girlfriends my editor. She's as bad as I am. I need a little help from folks here... Look forward to some of your stuff. I'll focus on story if I read any.

James

Thank you James.  I'll return the favor.

Quoted from AngelofDeath Here, I am more concerned with other story-tellers helping me craft my stories, and in turn I'll do the same.  Whether they write for fun or is serious about making it in "Hollywood," everyone who is a member here is a story-teller.  To insinuate otherwise... is "preposterous.".

Ghostwriter

I always concentrate on the story because that's far more important to me...plus I know that there will be others who give a breakdown of the errors.

I think people concentrate on format issues because it's "safe" ground..there's a right and wrong way to do something and it allows people to show their knowledge and feel secure in what they say.

Everything else is subjective.

Having said that, I must admit I've all but stopped commenting on scripts because it almost seems pointless. Take a look at the DVD reviews of professional films...you get diametrically opposed opinions on them. Taste is subjective. I can read a story and think it is terrible, someone else might love it. If I tell someone to change their story to make it better, it might make it worse to the very guy who was going to buy it for all I know.

I do agree with Blackwolffe to a large extent as well. The craft of telling a good story is far more complicated than learning format and it tends to be a very bad sign when a script isn't at least reasonably formatted.

There's also a major difficulty I find in discussing other people's stories. A lot of the time I don't even think the premise is up to scratch. I might think that there isn't enough conflict, that the stakes aren't high enough, that it's not got a hook or a marketable story, or that it's completly unoriginal...a whole host of things that I think make it fundamentally broken....and when I say fundamentally broken, I mean that it can't be fixed because to fix it you'd need to write a different story entirely.

However, there is a level of arrogance in that in the way that you are putting yourself above someone's elses story that I'm not comfortable with...it's not for any of us to be so outspoken about other people's work in that manner.

I'm sorry, Ghostwriter22.  Did you misinterpret my intentions for this post...?  Allow me to make it perfectly clear for you and everyone else.  This is supposed to be a place where story-tellers come to work on their craft, yes...?  So let's fucking act like it!

I in no way shape or form implied anyone here was anything less than a story-teller.  My problem is the veiled, disrespect, contempt, bullying, and ridiculously rigid dictum of structure over story in the guise of "format doctors".  The blinding adherence to the prevalent mentality that to review a script is to tear apart an aspiring writers formatting, grammar and spelling...things that can easily be fixed with software, proofreading and a good editor, none of which should be the focus of this site, IMO.

If I'm wrong, and this is where all the burned out Hollywood editors go when they've out lived their time in Tinsel town to pick on newbie writers, then I'll gladly steer clear of this site.  Is that the case here?

ScarTissueFilms,

Valid points all of them.  But I wasn't saying that anyone should act like they are above anyone elses story (a fine line I know).  Anytime someone brings up something in a story I'm working on, good or bad, it always gives me another POV.  And, whether or not I agree with them, it still helps me tighten up the story I want to tell.

Rarely if ever, have I had everyone whose read one of my scripts agree with it 100%.  In fact, more often than not, they all disagree on different things.  But that's where the story-teller has to step in and make a decision about what story they want to tell.

The other thing is that it's just your opinion.  One individual's personal take.  It's not gospel.  I know, easier said than done, but, the ability to take opinions with a grain of salt is a much needed asset for a writer.

As harsh it might feel to express a negative opinion about someone's story, I feel helps prepare newbie writers for future writing assignments, where the studio pays the writer to write the story THEY want and not something the writer would normally work on.  As a production company I'm sure you're familiar with this.  It takes a bit of getting used to the idea that the studio telling you to change this, drop that, rewrite that, edit this, etc in no way shape or form means you’re a bad writer.  It just means you can't read the studios minds.

Opinions should be used like any other tool.  To help you craft a better story.  And that's all opinions are.  Tools for the writer to use. At least IMHO.

Well, the new guy isn't shy.  I'll give him that much.

What you will find, Angel, given more time here, is that there are roughly two camps on these boards.

There is the stern, old-school -- those that believe unconventional formatting, loose structure, and plot points that do not occur on a certain page will get you ash-canned by any potential producer.

And there is a tentative new wave, that believes screenwriting as a medium of expression is a bit more fluid than that, and open to experimentation, provided there is a firm grasp of the basics (important!) and a compelling story to back it up.

No matter where you go, inside or outside of the internet, this debate is unresolved and it depends entirely upon who you ask.  During the occasional clashes between these two camps, both make sound points that are hard to ignore.

And I will go out on a limb and say that members of this new wave comment less.  They do not necessarily read less, but they comment less.

Which is why you find so many format police.  Commenting on format is easy.  Certainly easier than breaking down a story.  And you can do it after only a few pages.  That is why so many do it.  I am not a fan, and I find it lazy, but I do understand it.  So should you.  Bitching about that ain't going to change anything.

You seem to read a lot of comments, Angel, and to you -- and everyone else who has read this far -- I give you a little advice as a board veteran.

The posts a member generates are more often than not a reflection of their work.  If you deem their critiques worthy, perhaps that is an author you should check out when in the mood to read something.

By these methods, you will find yourself more often satisfied with what you have read.  And you may very well generate return reads for yourself from people who you are actually interested in hearing what they have to say.  

Bert,

Thank you for the insight on this site.  I appreciate it.

No...I'm not shy.  I try not to be too abrasive but, sometimes I fail miserably.  I apologize to everyone in advance.

I'm honestly just looking for a virtual writers group.  There aren't many screenwriters where I live and those that I have met are completely unwilling to exchange scripts.  Also, they're extremely pretentious.

...anyway..

I not here to just piss everyone off, really.  I hoestly want to make sure that this is the right place for me, that's all.  If I come off a little confrontational it's not personal, it's just who I am.  I'll try to rein it in, but no promises.

Angel,

I agree with what you are saying. I think there are a couple of issues:

1. There's always going to be the situation that people will be less inclined to read a badly formatted script. If the writer can't be bothered running a spell-check etc before they post, it's less likely that people will spend what can be hours out of their day to analyse the story in detail.

Writers are naturally close to their story and can read it through the mistakes. The person who has picked it up for the first time can find it a tremendous struggle to get through. Some people literally can't stand it long enough to even comment on the story.

Also, don't forget that people's time is precious and that their help is given freely. Even someone just pointing out typos is doing you a favour.

2. I have to say that I've always seen people comment on the story as well. That's been my experience on the site anyway. I've always been pleased with the quality of criticism.

I presume that you fell victim to one of our more aggressively proper format guardians...I'd take their comments for what they are and not get too worried about it. Once you've been around for a bit longer I think you'll find that you'll get more of the kind of criticism that you are looking for.

Rick

Quoted from AngelofDeath I'm sorry, Ghostwriter22.  Did you misinterpret my intentions for this post...?  Allow me to make it perfectly clear for you and everyone else.  This is supposed to be a place where story-tellers come to work on their craft, yes...?  So let's fucking act like it!

There's a way that a group of story-tellers working on their craft are supposed to act?  I thought when you got a bunch of creative people together you could expect just about anything to happen.  I know that if I were involved with a creative group of people I would expect the freedom to act when and how the moment moved me.  I wouldn't expect that there would be too many restrictions.   I could be wrong though and it wouldn't be the first time.

Ah, Bert,

Always the wiser. That's why he doesn't read any of my stuff. He doesn't like my posts. Deletes em' all the time. I see some missing from last night again!

How many of these am I allowed before I'm officially put in "Time-Out"?

Quoted from jwent6688 Ah, Bert, Always the wiser. That's why he doesn't read any of my stuff. He doesn't like my posts. Deletes em' all the time. I see some missing from last night again! How many of these am I allowed before I'm officially put in "Time-Out"?

I thought we already put you there.  That's where all the four year olds on the site belong. :-P

Too the Grim Reaper...

Quoted from AngelofDeath I'm sorry, Ghostwriter22.  Did you misinterpret my intentions for this post...?  I call it the way I see it.   Allow me to make it perfectly clear for you and everyone else.  This is supposed to be a place where story-tellers come to work on their craft, yes...?  So let's fucking act like it!  The only thing you made clear is your arrogance.  You just got here, a record 25 post average per day... a feat rivaling the mental powers of spoon bender, "Uri Gellar."  I highly suggest you spend more time getting familiar with this community to get a better understanding. I in no way shape or form implied anyone here was anything less than a story-teller.  My problem is the veiled, disrespect, contempt, bullying, and ridiculously rigid dictum of structure over story in the guise of "format doctors".  The blinding adherence to the prevalent mentality that to review a script is to tear apart an aspiring writers formatting, grammar and spelling...things that can easily be fixed with software, proofreading and a good editor, none of which should be the focus of this site, IMO.  That's your opinion, everyone doesn't see the world according to you. If I'm wrong, and this is where all the burned out Hollywood editors go when they've out lived their time in Tinsel town to pick on newbie writers, then I'll gladly steer clear of this site.  Is that the case here?  I can't speak for you.  You're a big boy, make-up your own fuckin' mind.

Ghostwriter

ScarTissueFilms

I just uploaded a script.  Hasn't been posted yet, so no, I haven't fallen victim to anyone, but...I'm sure it'll happen.

Absolutely agree that horrendous formatting and grammar will turn the majority of people off.  I've even had to stop reading a few scripts...so I'm guilty of that as well.

My observation has been that the dominant theme of most reviews is format-policing, not story related.  Again I haven't read all the posts on this site, it was just overwhelmingly prevelant.

Quoted from mcornetto I know that if I were involved with a creative group of people I would expect the freedom to act when and how the moment moved me.  I wouldn't expect that there would be too many restrictions.

Good luck with that...I hope the restraining order isn't too severe.

Ok, guys.  Let's calm things down a bit.

AOD,

The truth is that this is an unstructured environment.  It can definitely teach you a lot and you can grow very much as a screenwriter here, but it isn't going to force you to learn.  It is what you make of it and as such it really has no limits.

If you are looking for a more structured place to learn your craft, where people have rules about how they are supposed to comment and give feedback, then this is not and will probably never be the place for you.

Hope that helps.

Michael

Quoted from ghost and_ghostie gal You just got here, a record 25 post average per day... a feat rivaling the mental powers of spoon bender, "Uri Gellar."  I highly suggest you spend more time getting familiar with this community to get a better understanding.

Ahhh, there it is...the Mega Poster attitude that spending all day posting somehow makes you better than everyone else -- was wondering when that was gonna rear its ugly head.

At the risk of drawing your ire, Angel (can we get a real name from you? Because I can't honestly call you 'angel' if you're here long term...maybe Mr. Death?), I'm going to disagree with you. I see you kinda went off on one when Ghost did that, but I can take it.

Obviously, story is the key to any good screenplay. What's the saying...a turd, no matter how well-polished, is still a turd. But you have to start with good format. It's the foundation on which you build a good script. If a guy recites an epic poem, even one filled with most incredible story, action and characters, but he does it with a dodgy accent and a speech impediment, those are what the listener will find himself focusing on. Anyway, moving away from slightly suspect analogies...

You seem to have passion. That's good. You also seem to be a bit of a dick. That's okay. But I really don't appreciate you blasting people, and I include myself in this, who comment on scripts, genuinely attempting to help the writer, and focus on format. Sometimes, particularly when it's clear that the writer is a newcomer to the craft, it's actually the BEST thing to do. Even the most naturally talented driver shouldn't get on the open road until they know how to handle a car (damn, another analogy). I don't know if you saw it, but there was a script that went up the other day called 'One Last Visit'. I read the first page, highlighted and dissected what I took to be formatting errors, and then rewrote the page for the guy in a cleaner, leaner way to show him the difference.

Was that contemptuous? Was that disrespectful and bullying? I don't think so. I was genuinely trying to help the guy. He hasn't replied yet, but so what? Maybe he read it, and maybe it helped him. It took me about twenty minutes to do, twenty minutes I gave freely and with no expectation of a return read (and a promise of a follow-up read if he reposted a better formatted script), but I was happy to do it. Apparently, I've committed some sort of sin.

If I want to focus on format, I will. If I think it needs commenting on, I'll comment on it. If it DOESN'T need commenting on, that's a great sign - it means it's not an issue. Now, I try to balance reviews to cover as much as possible, but I always include comments on the writing and format, even if it's just 'it was great'. But that's not the point. When I'm writing a review here, I don't think I should be expected to write it to your, or anyone else's standards. And I don't appreciate you telling me how to review. I'm a story-teller, and I genuinely hope that one day I'll discover the Next Big Thing here (or even maybe just a Quite Big Thing...or maybe just a Thing). But I also comment on format. And you know what? That's my right.

C'mon bitch, bring it on.

JonnyBoy,

Bring what on?  I agree with almost everything you said.  I am a dick.  No arguments here...but only if you draw my ire.  I'm not saying format is to be overlooked...at no point did I say that.  I absolutely agree that if it's not even attempted...reading a script is extremely difficult.  I'm just as guilty of halting a read if I can't discern what the writer is writing, myself.

What I've noticed is that format seems to be King here and story was rarely if ever touched on.  Again, I haven't read every post, and don't intend to.  Hence the reason for this thread.  I wanted to make sure my initial assessment was wrong -- or at least wrong enough to justify staying here.

Quoted from JonnyBoy I don't know if you saw it, but there was a script that went up the other day called 'One Last Visit'. I read the first page, highlighted and dissected what I took to be formatting errors, and then rewrote the page for the guy in a cleaner, leaner way to show him the difference.

This not is what I'm talking about.  This is helpful...and extremely kind of you.  What I'm talking about is the attitude that one is a shit writer if they can't get the format just right...if their comma use is suspect (totally guilty of that)...if apostrophes have their way with the writer instead of the other way around.  Everyone makes typos and appreciates a helpful soul pointing them out.  Again not what I'm talking about.

If anyone is butt-hurt by my brining this topic up...maybe you should think about that.

Ha, here we go then.  Angel of Death wants to be the Great Pumpkin, the Grand Poobah, the new "Big Deal"...and he's off to a splendid start.

So, Angel, I'm a bit confused here. You talk about reviewing scripts based on story, etc, yet when you reviewed my script, the vast majority of your "review" was simply attacking me as a person.  I don't think you mentioned a single thing about the story or the plot.  You said you didn't like the characters.  You said you didn't like the dialogue.  That was about it.  Did your review help me in any way?  What do you think?

Am I missing something here?  In fact, I've seen numerous reviews from you that are 1 or 2 lines long...period.  Are we to use your reviews as a mold for how all reviews should be written?

I sure fucking hope not.

In considering the feedback of my last One Week Challenge excercise, nearly everyone of the comments given had something to do with story, characters or dialogue. (Maybe one about formatting, and even that was positive.)

I think the feedback (any feedback) from a source other than my wife (who refuses to read anything to do with zombies) is inherently valuable, like it or hate it, harsh or gentle-it's all helpful.

Angel,

It's not what you're saying, it's just the way that you are saying it.

You've only been here a minute and are effectively criticising everyone who takes time out of their day to review a script...people who have been a big help to others down the years as well.

Essentially all you are asking is this: "Are you people really good enough to justify me spending any time with you?".

Like Mcornetto said, this place is unstructured, which means that you make of it what you want. If you want people to concentrate on the story, you can simply mention that in your posts. You can specify what the script is supposed to be about, the emotional impact you were going for in certain scenes etc etc and ask for people's opinions on whether or not you succeeded and how it could be improved.

Rick.

Ah yes Dreamscale....was wondering when you would show up.

Your story was weak, dude.  Again, the "twist" was not so much a twist as an explanation for the all the killing by Danny and Claire.  The whole crawls toward the "twist" with a little bit of humor, and not much character development.  But hey, I'm just one guy talking.

The attack wasn't on you as a person.  It wasn't even an attack, it was more of a challenge for you as a writer.  You've had one script here for like two years.  That, to me, seems odd.  Shouldn't you have written something else?  Again, just one guy talking?  You may have written several scripts since you posted Fade to White...how the hell would I know, I only saw the one, which is why I asked.  I thought it strange and wanted to clarify.

After reading your response to my post on you Scripts thread you've pretty much answered any questions I had....so, thanks for that.

Quoted from Blakkwolfe In considering the feedback of my last One Week Challenge excercise, nearly everyone of the comments given had something to do with story, characters or dialogue. (Maybe one about formatting, and even that was positive.) I think the feedback (any feedback) from a source other than my wife (who refuses to read anything to do with zombies) is inherently valuable, like it or hate it, harsh or gentle-it's all helpful.

Absolutely agree with you Blakkwolfe.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films You've only been here a minute and are effectively criticising everyone who takes time out of their day to review a script...people who have been a big help to others down the years as well.

That's the crux of it, really. If you decide we're not good enough for you, you'll be out of here. People come and go through here all the time, but it's the ones who stick around and help build the community that are the ones that really matter. I've only been here a couple of years, but I try and do my bit. There are people that do a lot more than me. But overall, there's a good mix of people here, all with different tastes, likes and dislikes. There's good feedback to be had here, just as long as you put it in perspective.

If you decide to stay, I look forward to seeing what you can bring. As I said, you have passion, and you can string a sentence together, which is a good sign. I don't neccessarily disagree with what you're saying, either. But get to know us before you tell us exactly what you think of us, eh?

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Essentially all you are asking is this: "Are you people really good enough to justify me spending any time with you?".

Yes I am...and contrary to what it might look like, I like that fact that people back up what they are saying and doing.  I'm actually gaining more and more respect for each and every one of you who are sparing with me.  I don't want to waste my time with people who don't have any conviction, whether I agree or not isn't quite the point.  It's whether or not the person giving the review has the balls to back up what they say even when my temper flares.  Which it does often.  I try not to...but as you can see -- EPIC FAIL!

...again I apologize if I come off wrong I'm actually not that bad when you get to know me.  Anyway...

So far, I like all you assholes.  And I say that in a good way.  I let Dreamscale have it last night and he fired right back.  Which tells me that even if we disagree I know he's going it give it to me straight...something I like.  In fact so far my previous assessment of this site not being right for me is changing.

JB, don't be too sure about our new bestest buddy, Angel of Death, being able to string a sentence together very well.  WTF is this gibberish supposed to mean?

"The whole crawls toward the "twist" with a little bit of humor, and not much character development."

HUH?

As I replied to you in my post, I tried to answer all your questions...you answered none of mine.

BTW, where can I read one of your stunning reviews about story/plot/structure/characterization/dialogue/action/etc?  Have you spent more than 3 minutes writing an actual review with constructive criticism and advice?

You sure do talk a big game.  I can only imagine what you look like...I'm sure you're the kind who can only be the tough guy on your little old computer.  Am I right?  I thought so.

Quoted from Dreamscale You sure do talk a big game.  I can only imagine what you look like...I'm sure you're the kind who can only be the tough guy on your little old computer.  Am I right?  I thought so.

Not exactly...6' 2"  240lbs, 20 inches arms, four Black Belts, Certified Krav Maga instructor, Former Navy SEAL, licensed Bounty Hunter, certified Personal Trainer, certified Cross Fit instructor, 2000 overall winner in the Ironman All Natural Bodybuilding Competition, Bronze medalist in the 1995 Utah Summer games for Martial Arts...but what ever helps you sleep at night.

Anything else you wanna know?

Quoted from AngelofDeath Not exactly...6' 2"  240lbs, 20 inches arms, four Black Belts, Certified Krav Maga instructor, Former Navy SEAL, licensed Bounty Hunter, certified Personal Trainer, certified Cross Fit instructor, 2000 overall winner in Ironman All Natural Bodybuilding Competition, Bronze medalist in the 1995 Utah Summer games for Martial Arts...but what ever helps you sleep at night. Anything else you wanna know?

You sound hot.  Any chance you might be gay?

Not remotely....but thanks for the compliment.

Ha, funny shit for sure...

I guess the only other thing I want to know is why feel like you need to tell us this crap?

That's seriously hilarious, dude.  Frickin' hilarious!

Where's Balt when you need him?

Quoted from Dreamscale "The whole crawls toward the "twist" with a little bit of humor, and not much character development."

...the whole thing...the whole thing......my bad.

Quoted from Dreamscale BTW, where can I read one of your stunning reviews about story/plot/structure/characterization/dialogue/action/etc?  Have you spent more than 3 minutes writing an actual review with constructive criticism and advice?

I'll own that.  I haven't really been here that long, and I'm not very wordy when I don't have a lot to say or when it's already been said in a post prior to mine.

Quoted from AngelofDeath Not exactly...6' 2"  240lbs, 20 inches arms, four Black Belts, Certified Krav Maga instructor, Former Navy SEAL, licensed Bounty Hunter, certified Personal Trainer, certified Cross Fit instructor, 2000 overall winner in the Ironman All Natural Bodybuilding Competition, Bronze medalist in the 1995 Utah Summer games for Martial Arts...but what ever helps you sleep at night. Anything else you wanna know?

Uh-oh...it's Balt, back under a different name.

And if you stick around for long enough, Angel (seriously, give us a real name!), you'll understand that (poor) joke.

P.S. Option 2 for my Witty Reply was: he was talking about you, not your World of Warcraft avatar.

Thank you, I'm here all week.

Yawn...........

Seriously, is there nothing new under the sun?

Quoted from Dreamscale Ha, funny shit for sure... I guess the only other thing I want to know is why feel like you need to tell us this crap? Because you were sure "I was the kind of guy who can only be tough on my little old computer.  Am I right?  I thought so."  Just answering your question, dude. That's seriously hilarious, dude.  Frickin' hilarious! Where's Balt when you need him?

I take it you're a little butt-hurt.  Which begs the question......did I strike a nerve?

Quoted from Grandma Bear Yawn........... Seriously, is there nothing new under the sun?

Hey, you asked for a brawl. Although this is more of a hair-pulling contest...

And in response to your question, let me point you to Ecclesiastes (screenrider would be proud).

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow...what a heavy burden God has laid on men! I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

So, no.

No, I'm not butt hurt, but I could take a shit, I guess.  Beef roast for dinner, which will most likely increase the chances of some release.

Hey Angel, can we see some pics of some of your trophies?  Maybe, you can flex those 20 inchers and snap a pic.  We'd all be very impressed, I'm sure, and if nothing else, Michael will be very happy.  

I think Bert should just lock this thread. Let's see if this guy posts anything. I'm pretty sure he's a farce just here to rile it up.

Money talks Angel. We'll await your script. Better be fecking gold.

James

I predict it will be the new "Frostbite".

Angel of Death for Grand Poobah of Simply Scripts!

Or maybe we should all do a colab of Angel's adventures in bounty hunting, Navy Sealing, Iron Man triumphs, and of course, those elusive black belts he wears every day.

Quoted from jwent6688 I think Bert should just lock this thread.

That's right, baby.  Toughest guy on this board is the one with the delete key.

Try and kung-fu that, if you will.

I am not ready to lock it yet, though.  Whatever keeps the natives happy.

Another mod can clean this out if it gets too ugly -- I gotta get outta here now.  Big day tomorrow.

But I will clean out that Fade to White thread if it turns into a big pissing contest.  Keep it on this thread.

Wow.  Is this how you treat everyone with a question?  Or just newcomers?

If Dreamscale isn't happy you just flip on a guy?  WTF?

Don't freak out! We like new people. We've just seen this happen over and over. Relax. We're all here to help each other....now if you could just send me a pic of yourself....

Seriously, read scripts. Comment on them. Submit a script and you will receive comments.  

Quoted from AngelofDeath Wow.  Is this how you treat everyone with a question?  Or just newcomers? If Dreamscale isn't happy you just flip on a guy?  WTF?

Heh -- still here for a few minutes.  I lied.

We do try to keep things civil, Angel -- and this thread has now devolved into nothing but chest thumping -- with your question asked and answered.

Has absolutely nothing to do with how I may or may not feel about Jeff.

Has everything to do with the fact that people should be reading scripts instead of flashing their shiny, moonlit asses at one another.

Angel,
If you were here for more than a day, you would understand Bert.

Or anyone here for that matter.

Lighten up man. Or your stay here will not gain you anything other than attention.

And it will be short lived.

Shawn....><

Quoted from bert flashing their shiny, moonlit asses at one another.

You delete another one of my posts and I shall send you one via Email. You'll open it... and never be the same.

It seems I've upset just about everyone.  Which answers my question as to whether or not I want to be here.

The idea that the more posts you do (which apparently have to live up to Dreamscales standards) is kind of a turn off.

So I'll be going...make sure to tell everyone here you verbally pummeled me into submission.  Dreamscale will no doubt regale you with a similar story in which his keen wit and razor-sharp insight cut me to ribbons.  He's so dashing, isn't he?

For those of you that were actually interested in what I was asking and not but hurt by a simple question...I wish you luck.

Soooooo....

You don't have anything to give to this site?

You just piss on people and give a farewell?

39 post and all them useless attacks. It was you who came in pummeling.

I will give anyone here 3 to 5 odds, this guy either was a former poster or is a teenager.

Shawn......><

Do agree about McKee's Story. Need to revisit that one.

Sigh...

I do wish we'd stop driving people away who actually want to contribute. It wouldn't hurt to have some new blood around here, especially new blood that can stand up for itself (which is increasingly becoming a requirement for SS duty).

Angel, you've been abrasive. As an introduction, it wasn't great. Jeff, you've made your point. Shaun, Jeff doesn't need you to stand up for him.

Let's shake and move on, yeah?

I don't think anyone is driving anyone else away.  However, lately we have had a couple of people come in who think it's their duty to tell us how the site *should* be.   And it's all well and fine to have and express an opinion but then you gotta accept that other people aren't going to agree.  These new fellas didn't seem to be able to do that.

It's unfortunate but that's the way it is.  

I was trying to be friendly and give advice on what to do here to get the most out of the site.

I do think too many new people have started out kind of wrong and end up leaving. Which is a shame.

JonnyBoy

My muddy friend, If I can ask you what contribution was made by Angel?

Have you ever been in a group of people and in that group, one person made it a point to try and make themselves the center of attention? Don't we see it all of the time now on TV?

I myself welcome any input no matter the uproar. I have been in the middle of a few of those arguments.

Maybe this person should take a day off, regroup, and perhaps approach this as an opportunity to gain something.

Nobody here (in my opinion) wants to scrap with one another over nothing.

As for me sticking up for Jeff, I don't have to. Trust me, Jeff has proven ten fold he can stick up for himself. I simply wanted to assure this Angel person that others are watching and simply feel that his one day opinion may be a bit hasty.

Shawn....><  

Quoted from Grandma Bear I do think too many new people have started out kind of wrong and end up leaving. Which is a shame.

Remember the guy who came on here a while back and said that SS had a rep for being a place full of frustrated 'can't-be's just looking for people and scripts to tear down?

He was wrong, and we all told him so, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep an eye on that. I enjoy being a part of this community, but I don't like seeing newcomers scared off, no matter how sucky their first impression is. Which Angel's was.

Quoted from Ledbetter JonnyBoy My muddy friend, If I can ask you what contribution was made by Angel? Have you ever been in a group of people and in that group, one person made it a point to try and make themselves the center of attention? Don't we see it all of the time now on TV? I myself welcome any input no matter the uproar. I have been in the middle of a few of those arguments. Maybe this person should take a day off, regroup, and perhaps approach this as an opportunity to gain something. Nobody here (in my opinion) wants to scrap with one another over nothing. As for me sticking up for Jeff, I don't have to. Trust me, Jeff has proven ten fold he can stick up for himself. I simply wanted to assure this Angel person that others are watching and simply feel that his one day opinion may be a bit hasty. Shawn....><

'Muddy'? Err...thank you? You're muddy.

EDIT: Ah, the avatar. I get it. I think it's a stone statue, actually. Ren called me 'stony' a while back.

Quoted from JonnyBoy Remember the guy who came on here a while back and said that SS had a rep for being a place full of frustrated 'can't-be's just looking for people and scripts to tear down? He was wrong, and we all told him so, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep an eye on that. I enjoy being a part of this community, but I don't like seeing newcomers scared off, no matter how sucky their first impression is. Which Angel's was.

It's really Angel that caused this issue and not everyone else.  No one scared him off.  As a matter of fact several people tried very hard to make him feel welcome.    For all we know this could happen to Angel with every site he visits.

JonnyBoy
LOL,

Isn't it funny how we can see things the same yet different.

I thought you were mud covered. Sorry.

Shawn.....><

Quoted from mcornetto It's really Angel that caused this issue and not everyone else.  No one scared him off.  As a matter of fact several people tried very hard to make him feel welcome.    For all we know this could happen to Angel with every site he visits.

True, true. Just sayin', it's happened before. And it'll happen again.

IMO, this was completely caused by this prick, Angel.  Just a total dickhead.

I hope he stays around.  You know I enjoy a good go around, but it's obvious he was trying to instigate everything.  He's probably always like this.

And Jeff - Don't call people names.  It's against the rules.  You should know that.

Sorry, Michael.  I do know that, but definitely abuse it too often.

I apologize.

And I do mean what I said...I hope he sticks around and offers up his thoughts, advice, and whatever else he can.  Maybe this is Balt V3.  The V2 Balt liked me, I think, so this one may be the polar opposite.  Who knows.

Angel, I apologize if I said anything I shouldn't have.  C'mon back and write some serious reviews about what matters to you...what you have passion in.  Seriously.  No reason to run away now.

Read "The Door" and give an honest review of it that can help the writer.  That's my challenge to you, if you choose to accept it...

Here's the case cracker that this guy was a farce...

I looked into the thread "Senior Year", saw that NJ Devil didn't give Dressel any response for his review. So I posted that was a douche bag move. A coupla minutes after AoD said they had read it and didn't feel the need to comment since it was covered by others already. Click on the link. It's not there. Nor was it yesterday.

I called NJ devil out a bit.  Promptly removed by Bert. Fucker. But AoD was commenting on a script that has not re-posted yet that he read it. It's a blank link.

Angel is clearly someone who's been on these boards a bit. I can't even fathom how he's read all those so fast. Not to mention all of the comments on Jeff's fade. Would take me a months to read those.

Delete his fucking account. He's had his fun

James

Quoted from AngelofDeath Does anyone comment on something other than proper format?  Grammar?  Spelling...?  I haven't exactly read every post, but it seems like this site is very "Format-Lawyer" heavy, and a little light on the subject of Story.  I could be wrong here, but I thought that Story was kind of important.

You are right. Absolutely right and I speak about it all the time on here and hand-in-hand with story goes character. The two are inseparable for a truly good story.

Sandra

Back on topic...

Absolutely Sandra.

Know one is arguing that point.  The story is important, but nobody is going to get to the story... atleast someone of importance, if everything else isn't in order.  Format-- grammical-- ect.  Especially, if you want to make it, big time.  "Hollywood" is always looking for a reason, not to read a script.  If they see mistakes on the first couple of pages, guess what...you may have an Oscar winning script, but it's going in the trash bin.

To read a feature takes 2 to 3 hours.  That's a lot of time out of someone's day.  And to get bogged down with a badly formatted script, treading through mistakes, well you know the end result.  "Sorry, I couldn't get through this."  That's just a plan honest fact.

So if you want people to get to the story, well take care of the little stuff.  Even for a site like SS.  

Of course, I could be wrong in my thinking.  This thread is already too hot!!!  I'm out.

Ghostwriter

A little comic relief.  



I couldn't resist.  

Quoted from Dreamscale Read "The Door" and give an honest review of it that can help the writer.  That's my challenge to you, if you choose to accept it...

Man... why you draggin' my ass into this?  

Quoted from bert What you will find, Angel, given more time here, is that there are roughly two camps on these boards. There is the stern, old-school -- those that believe unconventional formatting, loose structure, and plot points that do not occur on a certain page will get you ash-canned by any potential producer. And there is a tentative new wave, that believes screenwriting as a medium of expression is a bit more fluid than that, and open to experimentation, provided there is a firm grasp of the basics (important!) and a compelling story to back it up. No matter where you go, inside or outside of the internet, this debate is unresolved and it depends entirely upon who you ask.  During the occasional clashes between these two camps, both make sound points that are hard to ignore. And I will go out on a limb and say that members of this new wave comment less.  They do not necessarily read less, but they comment less. Which is why you find so many format police.  Commenting on format is easy.  Certainly easier than breaking down a story.  And you can do it after only a few pages.  That is why so many do it.  I am not a fan, and I find it lazy, but I do understand it.  So should you.  Bitching about that ain't going to change anything.

=


Too bad this discussion turned into a dick measuring contest. AoD had a valid point and a valid question.

Wow... The things I miss when I don't look on here at night. From someone who was completely on the outside of the entire pissing contest, I really don't understand how it got to that. I mean, there must have been a lot of deleted posts or something because to me, there seemed to be a handful of comments and before I knew it, AoD decided he's leaving. I'm sitting here thinking, "what just happened?"

If I might comment on the overall plot of this thread, we began with what amounted to a combination of a question and a criticism from someone who is purportedly a new member. In my own head, I wonder if he was actually new since new members are rarely so bold. This logically moved into a general agreement that story is king. The first (perceived as) negative comment seemed to be issued by Ghostwriter who simply said that everyone here is a storyteller. AoD said we should act a certain way in response to this and then Cornetto pointed out that creative people tend to be a bit odd. Ghostwriter came back with a barrage of disagreement (as well as a sudden subplot from jwent about bert deleting his posts), and AoD felt his comments were a result of jealousy over the sheer number of posts he racked up. Then JonnyBoy both agreed with story but then pointed out that if he wants to comment on format, he will. It appeared to be a sort of tongue-in-cheek challenge there at the end when he said "bring it on" essentially saying that if AoD had an issue with his commenting on format to say so. AoD responded by not getting it.

There were a couple more calm posts before Dreamscale turned up and criticized what comments that AoD had left. Dreamscale appears to be AoD's target here because he seemed pleased that the thread drew DS out. That's when the real pissing game started because AoD repeated some of the negative comments he left on the Fade to White thread and DS criticized him for them. The side comments around this new contral conversation seemed pretty tame overall unless you took pieces of the comments out of context. For instance, one might say JonnyBoy asked AoD to leave if he didn't like it, but in the same post (if you keep reading) he welcomes AoD to stay.

Then DS starts challenging AoD. AoD shows off is measurements, and it really got banal after that for awhile. That's where the real conflict in this thread came out. Before that, there wasn't much to it. Each player continued the gripe session with ignorable comments from everyone else inbetween since neither participant was willing to let go of the last word.

After a brief reminder of jwent being impressed with bert's delete key, AoD got his last word by saying he's leaving. DS, predictably blamed AoD for starting this whole mess but hoping he'd stick around. Everyone else stood around asking what just happened.

Looking over the whole thing, AoD was direct, but not rude in what he originally said. Even after Ghostwriter's abrasive comments, this whole thing didn't go downhill until DS took the whole thing personally (that's the way the thread reads right now, sorry Jeff). AoD wasn't too dickish at any point, really, but he knew exactly how to push DS's buttons to evoke an explosive response, and I suspect he thoroughly enjoyed it. However, if one takes a step back, the conversation didn't turn until DS turned it that way.

So in the end, the instigator of the argument wasn't AoD, but DS. This wasn't totally his fault, Jeff, and he actually wasn't a total dickhead. Sure, he didn't end it, but your comments had more attack qualities than his did.

But that's where the story ended after a little denouement at the end where those left behind praised the original post and wondered why it went wrong. When these things come up, we gotta remember the Godfather rules: it ain't personal, it's business. Yes, some of us feel like these scripts are our babies, but anyone who makes a comment of any kind does take the time to do so, and even if you don't like the comments, take them at least with a grain of salt and don't gripe about it. It is far better to receive those negative comments now when you can easily fix it rather than after the movie is on screen when you can't.

That was excellent George.

Though I still think AoD was pushing those buttons, maybe not in this thread but definitely in a few others, and I ultimately believe he caused this issue.  Though I think a few others contributed they only did so because they were provoked.  

  

John, sorry to drag you in here, but I was just trying to give your script a bump and get some discussion going for you.

George, I'm sorry, but I totally have to disagree with you for several reasons.

1)  AoD left numerous reviews yesterday before he started this thread.  None of them had anything to do with what he talked about in his thread.  So, basically he is a complete hypocrite, yet he continually "accused" "us" of being various things we are not.

2)  His review of my script was a complete joke and read more like a personal attack then anything else.  In fact, I received a PM from a mod who asked me if I wanted to respond to it, or if I wanted him to delete it.  It was pretty blatant what the comments were meant to do.

3)  When I saw this thread, I merely called him out, based on #'s 1 and 2 above, and he not only couldn't address them, but he got very pissy and became one huge A-Hole/braggart.  No way was I going to sit back and keep my mouth shut.

4)  Even the tone of the initial post on this thread is very condescending, and downright odd, if you ask me.  I'm really surprised you don't, or didn't see that.

I hate to think you or anyone else sees me as the culprit here.  But then again, if I'm in a bar, and a bar fight breaks out that has anything to do with anyone I'm with, you can bet I'll be swinging for the fence and be one of the last to calm my ass down.

I apologize again for my part in this mess.  I definitely do not like when things go the way this did.

AOD if you're still out there, listen to the Simply Radio podcast titled "The Inner Sanctum, 2-27-10" featuring a professional script reader.   Youre question was answered.  Also check out "Interview With Babz, 6-11-10".  

Good stuff.

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-RadioSimply/

Sometimes the best response to provocation is to say nothing at all. That way, no one will be in doubt as to any fault.

Sometimes reviews are jokes. Sometimes, they say nothing. That's when you thank the reader and move on.

Sometimes a good point is made even by one hypocritical of his own words. I can make up all kinds of legitimate reasons why someone would make such a comment, both good and bad.

Personally, if I'd got off on the wrong foot and then made a point that a lot of people agreed with only to be smacked down for something else I'd said somewhere else, I'd be pretty pissed off too. Gotta stay on topic.

I was not so blind as to not catch the apparent condescension, but condescending though his first post may have come off, remember that it is difficult to determine tone in a message board post. Some people haven't mastered the art of conveyed tone in their writing. This is ironic considering that this is a site of writers.

And there are several people who are completely the way he made some people out to be. I wasn't the only one to agree. No, not ALL of us, but some. It is because format is easy to critique that some people will go down that road first. He hasn't been around long enough to realize that we all start out with attacking format because it is easy to write a long review containing the page numbers of every editing issue. Most of the time, there is some story stuff smattered in there, but I admit that my early reviews were at least half to three-quarters just editing crap. My current reviews have no page numbers and only go over the story. It's an evolution, and he simply hasn't gone far enough back to see that the evolution exists.