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Posted: June 9th, 2009, 10:51pm Report to Moderator
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Temptation by Tim Ratcliffe (trojan) - Short - During his bachelor party a man's faithfulness to his fiancee is put to the test. 12 pages - pdf, format


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dresseme
Posted: June 9th, 2009, 11:04pm Report to Moderator
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Tim,

Gave this one a read cause I found some time on my hands.

Good dialogue, good descriptions, but I can't say I was too big a fan of the story.  

**SPOILERS**

No joke, I basically knew where it was going the minute she asked him to join her in the tub.  She just seemed to eager to get out there, and you were making SUCH a big deal out of his fidelity to his fiance...I don't know...it just seemed to add up. I will say, however, it's nice to see a story about someone who doesn't cheat; that doesn't happen too often.  I watched a film the other night where the main thesis seemed to be that, given the chance, all men will cheat.

I also wasn't a huge fan of the whole girl-on-girl thing, or the final punchline of the film.

You're a good writer, no doubt about that, but this particular story just didn't do it for me.
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Trojan
Posted: June 10th, 2009, 1:54am Report to Moderator
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Hey Dressel, thanks for the read.

The story idea came from a similar situation that a friend told me about recently, so it was a true story. Except in that situation the guy did cheat so that's why I wanted to change it because it seemed too predictable. But I may have just substituted one predictable ending for another  

Thanks for the feedback, I can see how the story won't be everyone's cup of tea.

Cheers,
Tim.


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Andrew
Posted: June 10th, 2009, 9:05am Report to Moderator
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Tim,

Well, this is inevitably going to evoke 'The Hangover' in theme - it will look a little reactive to that movie, but that's no bad thing, I think. To me, it felt like you were writing for fun, and that came across.

Just wanted to highlight some points that would - I think - benefit this script from a 'rules/structure' POV. Firstly, the action dialogue was generally too long. To me, it felt like you had an average of 3 or so lines, which is a bit much. It did, however, nicely create the scene, but I am sure that others would find it a little labouring. I particularly liked this line:


Quoted Text
A good sport, Geoff trudges over and feigns guilt for the
offence.


I could just see him doing that - so, for me, it was very visual.

The same thing goes for the dialogue - yes, it was very effective in getting the story across, but people don't tend to speak in such long sentences.

In terms of the story, it did feel a little stop/start, and we kind of arrived at the ending - personally, I think if you'd arrived at this conclusion in a few less pages it would've felt more resounding, y'know.

Ok, so, that's the "negatives" out of the way.

There are a lot of positives here, too. You clearly write well, so that's not a hurdle you need to clear. The story was engaging for the more 'laddish' element - I mean,  who doesn't consider the ending to be the holy grail in a superficial yearning? The main strength, for me, was that I could see this play out - it may be due to similar films existing, however.

This is a good script, and I like the fact it tackles infidelity, as well as highlighting the chasm between men and women in what that term constitutes. Carly is able to play on Geoff's (and men's) weakness for the ménage à trois, which of course doesn't break the code, and she does this to facilitate her own sexual desires.

Nice one.

Andrew


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Trojan
Posted: June 10th, 2009, 1:32pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Andrew


Well, this is inevitably going to evoke 'The Hangover' in theme - it will look a little reactive to that movie, but that's no bad thing, I think. To me, it felt like you were writing for fun, and that came across.


Andrew, thanks for the read mate. I actually don't know too much about the Hangover to be honest, other than the basic story premise. I know it has opened up in the US, possibly in the UK too? In Oz we often have to wait a while longer for films to be released here. But yeah I do tend to enjoy those sort of films, maybe it influences the way I write or choice of subject matter at times.


Quoted Text
Just wanted to highlight some points that would - I think - benefit this script from a 'rules/structure' POV. Firstly, the action dialogue was generally too long. To me, it felt like you had an average of 3 or so lines, which is a bit much. It did, however, nicely create the scene, but I am sure that others would find it a little labouring.]


I think that's something I'll have to work on. Most of my writing experience is with articles and short stories, so the short, sharp sentences and one-line paragraphs don't come as naturally yet.

Anyway thanks for the feedback, appreciate it.

Cheers,
Tim.



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Tommyp
Posted: June 15th, 2009, 5:33am Report to Moderator
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Tim. Here are my thoughts as I read your script...

- Good logline. I don't know too much about them, but this one is too the point.
- Straight off the bat (where did that saying come from anyway? 5 points if you know...) you have told, not shown. "A bachelor party is in full swing". Then straight after you describe the party. Cut the first sentence out, and it basically means the same thing. With me?
- Don't capitalise "loud music" if you aren't gonna do it with other actions or sound effects.
- Again, how you word this is ... well just annoying.

"At the centre of attention is GEOFF, 30, handsome and athletic. Huge smile on his face, he is having a hell of a time -- perhaps not as much as his TWO FRIENDS snorting coke off the table next to him -- but a hell of a time nonetheless."

Could be:

"GEOFF, 30, handsome and athletic smiles broadly as he stands around his friends, two of which snort coke from a table close by."

I think the action lines should be simple, and I don't mind how you wrote that bit too much, it could just be cleaner, smoother and an easier read.
- Stumbling should be stumbles. So have "RANDY, short, sharply dressed stumbles through the crowd..."
- "Keeps two for himself" You don't need this. If you just said that he has 3 beers and gives one to Geoff, we know he has kept two for himself. Don't assume the reader is stupid.
- Messy topic, but my advice would be to not have "laughing" where it is. Have it as an action line. Each to their own though.
- "ok" should be "okay".
- I don't like your descriptions of the girls, but that is your choice, you can say anything you want in descriptions really.
- "Holding her hand is ROCHELLE" again, get into the habit of writing in the active tense. "ROCHELLE holds her hand".
- "what else" and the "suprise suprise" interrupts the flow of reading. They could be in anything from a nurses outfit to a busdrivers to whatever. There are many stereotypical strippers uniforms (not that I would know) so just be careful that the stuff you say is important in the action lines.
- "victim/lucky bastard" funny, but needed?
- "cheer on" should be "cheer her on"
- all the "smiling" and "laughing" - you know my standpoint on it.
- Few words which could be active here, I won't go through them all.
- The whole scene in the jacuzzi goes on too long. Lot's of stuff could be cut out. It was funny, but it was basically the same points again and again. Funny though.
- Okay you have done well here. Obviously time has passed, as nearly everyone has left, and Randy has had 17 lapdances, and then Geoff and Ruby are sitting closer and this line "I can’t believe you used to like Astroboy." implies they have been talking for a while. Works well.

- Okay finished it. Cool ending. I would have liked to see something more happen to Randy.
- You should have mentioned Carly's name earlier.
- We could have seen a hint from Ruby that she knew Carly.
- You should have Geoff's reaction after the last line. Will he join them or not?
- I think Geoff should swear when he sees Carly. Bigger, better reaction.
- Say hi your to your mum for me

Overall that was a good read, man. Could have been better, but you set it all up nicely, then had a good payoff.

Well done.

(seriously, tell your mum I say hi...)


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Trojan
Posted: June 16th, 2009, 11:33am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Tommyp

I think the action lines should be simple, and I don't mind how you wrote that bit too much, it could just be cleaner, smoother and an easier read.

- "what else" and the "suprise suprise" interrupts the flow of reading. They could be in anything from a nurses outfit to a busdrivers to whatever. There are many stereotypical strippers uniforms (not that I would know) so just be careful that the stuff you say is important in the action lines.

- "victim/lucky bastard" funny, but needed?


Yeah these are all examples of things that I included that technically weren't needed. I included them more to convey the tone of the script to the reader, that it was lighthearted and not particularly serious. I don't mind scripts that have the occasional aside to the reader, though I understand it is annoying for some people.


Quoted Text
- You should have mentioned Carly's name earlier.


What do you mean, like when she first appeared in the room I should have mentioned her name instead of referring to her as WOMAN?


Quoted Text
- We could have seen a hint from Ruby that she knew Carly.


At what point would you have liked to see that? Personally I wanted it to be as late as possible to be more of a twist.


Quoted Text
- You should have Geoff's reaction after the last line. Will he join them or not?


I wanted to leave it open to interpretation. But he is a guy so I think we all know what he is going to do  


Quoted Text
- Say hi your to your mum for me


I did. She said make sure you are eating your vegetables and rugging up cos it's cold in Tassie this time of year.

Thanks for the read mate, again I appreciate all the detailed feedback. I didn't respond to the rest of the comments as they are all good points and things that I need to fix.

Cheers,
Tim.


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alffy
Posted: June 16th, 2009, 1:12pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Tim

Thought I'd give this a read.

I wouldn't think strippers usually have conversations with the clients, especially personal stuff like her past and her feelings.  This all seems a little weird.

There's also a lot of long unbroken dialogue, I'd throw in a few lines of action to break them up a bit.

As for the story, well I liked it in parts but had a few issues.  Although Geoff didn't have sex with Ruby he did get in the jacuzzi and they went to her room so Carly would have had a problem, had she been a real woman.  Believe me, I think most women would find this a problem.  But then when we find out the reason for this and Carly and Ruby's intentions, for me Geoff would be a bit pissed.  Maybe I'm wrong but as this didn't come across as a comedy I think he'd be really pissed by Carly's actions.  He seems the guy that stands by his principles but Carly openly cheats on him, in front of him, with Ruby.

Maybe I've got this all wrong but it just came across as confusing to me.  The characters emotions weren't believable in my mind, sorry.

This was well written and I had no problems with your descriptions and dialouge as a whole just the context of it really.  I guess that comes across as a bit contradictory.

If I took this as a simple story, it would work fine but I just read too much into the characters unbelievable reactions to the situations they were in.


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Tommyp
Posted: June 16th, 2009, 10:32pm Report to Moderator
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Yo Tim.

Yeah, the examples I mentioned (your first point in your reply) are 100% my opinion. I should have said that originally. It's your style, so if you like it that way, go for it man.

I would have had Randy say to Geoff near the start of the script something like "In two days, Carly will be the man in your relationship" Okay that sounds s***, but you know what I mean. Just mention who she is, and it will set it up better for later.

Regarding the hint, something like:

Geoff: Yeah my future wife is great to me, blah blah blah"
Ruby: Yeah I know.
Geoff: What?
Ruby: Nothing. Anyway blah blah blah

Gee, i'm really not feeling creative at the moment! That sounds terrible. But I hope you get what I mean. So at the time the audience disregard it, and forgets about it. But right at the end when all is revealed, they go "oohhhhh of course Carly knew Ruby!" and they will think back to that line. It just adds another level to it.

And thanks for that, it's frickin' freezing!

Take it easy mate.


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Trojan
Posted: June 17th, 2009, 1:22am Report to Moderator
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Alffy, thanks for the read. I'll see if I can clear things up a bit.


Quoted from alffy
I wouldn't think strippers usually have conversations with the clients, especially personal stuff like her past and her feelings.  This all seems a little weird.


Actually they do talk to the clients a lot, in a club for example they are trying to sell dances so they are basically salespeople. Talking to guys is a large part of the job.
In this instance however she is trying to seduce him so it would be weird if she wasn't talking to him.


Quoted Text
There's also a lot of long unbroken dialogue, I'd throw in a few lines of action to break them up a bit.


Good point, I agree.


Quoted Text
As for the story, well I liked it in parts but had a few issues.  Although Geoff didn't have sex with Ruby he did get in the jacuzzi and they went to her room so Carly would have had a problem, had she been a real woman.  Believe me, I think most women would find this a problem.  But then when we find out the reason for this and Carly and Ruby's intentions, for me Geoff would be a bit pissed.  Maybe I'm wrong but as this didn't come across as a comedy I think he'd be really pissed by Carly's actions.  He seems the guy that stands by his principles but Carly openly cheats on him, in front of him, with Ruby.


I thought the story explained these issues, but I'll sum it up. The basic story is when Ruby finds out her friend is getting married (Carly) she warns her not to because all guys are cheaters and can't be trusted. Being a stripper she sees guys at their worst. Carly tells her Geoff is not like that and that she can trust him, so Ruby sets out to seduce Geoff to see if he is trustworthy.

So as for Carly having a problem with what Geoff did, she knew all along what was happening. Geoff had this sexy and seductive woman throwing herself at him and he turned her down because he didn't want to cheat on Carly. Carly witnesses this and she knows for a fact that she can trust him. That's why she isn't mad, and she even explains that in the story when she talks about how she is straight and wasn't able to resist Ruby's charms in college.

As for Geoff being pissed because Carly openly cheats on him in front of him, well, can you really cheat on someone openly in front of them? To me, the notion of cheating implies going behind someone's back and betraying their trust. But look at it from his point of view. He has this gorgeous woman who he is clearly attracted to in Ruby, and he finds out his fiancee used to date her and is now inviting him to have a threesome with them. Would he be pissed or jumping for joy?


Quoted Text
Maybe I've got this all wrong but it just came across as confusing to me.  The characters emotions weren't believable in my mind, sorry.


Perhaps the reactions and situations seem unbelievable to you, and that is fair enough. But things like this really do happen a lot more often than people think. As I mentioned in a post above the story premise was based on a real life example a friend told me about recently.

So thanks for your comments, I don't know if my reply helps the story make any more sense to you or not. Like I mentioned to another reader above, the story isn't for everyone.

Cheers,
Tim.



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Trojan
Posted: June 17th, 2009, 1:35am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Tommyp
I would have had Randy say to Geoff near the start of the script something like "In two days, Carly will be the man in your relationship" Okay that sounds s***, but you know what I mean. Just mention who she is, and it will set it up better for later.


Ok I see what you mean now. I actually did mention her in the beginning, when Randy talks about Geoff having an affair one day. Geoff says 'I love Carly and have no intention of cheating on her'.


Quoted Text
Regarding the hint, something like:

Geoff: Yeah my future wife is great to me, blah blah blah"
Ruby: Yeah I know.
Geoff: What?
Ruby: Nothing. Anyway blah blah blah

Gee, i'm really not feeling creative at the moment! That sounds terrible. But I hope you get what I mean. So at the time the audience disregard it, and forgets about it. But right at the end when all is revealed, they go "oohhhhh of course Carly knew Ruby!" and they will think back to that line. It just adds another level to it.


Yeah I think when done right these little clues work really well. To be honest I think they are really tough to do and I'm probably not experienced enough to do them effectively yet. When I read scripts or watch movies now I see a lot of these little hints and I always seem to pick up on them and figure out early on what the twist is going to be at the end. But when I don't pick up on them it is much more effective when you see the twist revealed, so I think it takes a really good writer to pull it off.


Quoted Text
And thanks for that, it's frickin' freezing!


Yeah it's getting pretty chilly up here too... it must be only about 23 degrees outside today  

Cheers,
Tim.



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michel
Posted: June 25th, 2009, 8:26am Report to Moderator
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Tim,

I’m gonna be short. I haven’t read the other reviews, so forgive me if I seem redundant.

Very, very kinky story. Most of all, your realistic wirting and pacing are perfect and the final twist worths gold.

Just one tiny disappointement. I couldn’t guess Geoff’s recation at Carly’s last line. Is he going or not ?

Surely because of the title, I had Tom Wait’s song all along in my head while I read. I don’t know if you ever listened to it, but it’d perfectly stick to the movie.

Definitely the best short I read lately. F*ck ! I’m deadly jealous…

Michel :8


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Trojan
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Quoted from michel
Very, very kinky story. Most of all, your realistic wirting and pacing are perfect and the final twist worths gold.

Just one tiny disappointement. I couldn’t guess Geoff’s recation at Carly’s last line. Is he going or not ?


I wanted to leave that part up to the reader to decide for themselves. I know in my mind how he would react but it is open to interpretation really.


Quoted Text
Surely because of the title, I had Tom Wait’s song all along in my head while I read. I don’t know if you ever listened to it, but it’d perfectly stick to the movie.


No I'm not familiar with the song, but I'll see if I can check it out.


Quoted Text
Definitely the best short I read lately. F*ck ! I’m deadly jealous…


Wow, thanks for the compliment. I appreciate the kind words and you taking the time to read it.

Cheers,
Tim.



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grademan
Posted: June 25th, 2009, 6:31pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Tim,

Another good read from you. I liked the dialogue and the story. A bit pre"dick" table but a well done one. A few minor issues:

I too would like to see a foreshadowing of Ruby and Carly knowing each other.

I see you are a fan of using double hypens in your descritpions. It's a style thing you may not have been aware of.

Too many character's name's starting with R: Ruby, Randy and Rochelle.

Gary

BTW, Holly Cole's version is superior to Tom Wait's original of Temptation. (Sorry Michel!)


Major lead characters must show GRIT. No wimps! He must do something. He must have forward motion.

JAMES SCOTT BELL

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grademan  -  June 25th, 2009, 6:46pm
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Trojan
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Quoted from grademan
Hey Tim,

Another good read from you. I liked the dialogue and the story. A bit pre"dick" table but a well done one. A few minor issues:

I too would like to see a foreshadowing of Ruby and Carly knowing each other.


Yeah I don't think that is a bad idea, it just comes down to finding a way to do that without giving the end away and making it any more predictable. I will give it some thought.


Quoted Text
I see you are a fan of using double hypens in your descritpions. It's a style thing you may not have been aware of.


Just something I did for this particular script, experimenting with different styles a little bit as I'm only new at this. But otherwise I don't normally include them in action scenes like that.


Quoted Text
Too many character's name's starting with R: Ruby, Randy and Rochelle.


Definitely agree with you there. In fact I noticed that when I was still writing it and made a mental note to change one of the names but it slipped my mind before I posted it.

Thanks for the read and the feedback Gary.

Cheers,
Tim.


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