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And again, how can those of you who say that people can't really make choices for themselves at all support a system of government where the people are actually entrusted to elect their leaders? Surely that must be lunacy if they can't even choose a soft-drink for themselves?
You've created a straw man here, TJ. A lot of people are influenced into the “choices” they make after being misled about what their choices actually are. But there are independent thinkers who are capable of making up their own minds no matter how much propaganda gets slung at them; unfortunately they’re in the minority.
A problem with capitalism, in many countries, is the two party dominance, where you have the two right-wing parties getting all the media coverage because they are funded to the hilt by the corporations who want them to stay in power, because they know they’ll maintain the status-quo. This creates the illusion that people only have the choice of voting for one or the other of the right-wing parties. So a lot of people vote for what they think in the lesser of the two evils or, as happens in the USA, many people just don’t vote at all. That’s the so called free market for you.
Anyway my point is that I don’t believe anybody really needs more than 500K a year. Capitalism has reached the point where 2% of the world’s population control 85% of the wealth. I think it’s wrong that a small minority of people indulge themselves in decadent excess whilst millions starve, but you just go ahead and keep defending that TJ.
You've created a straw man here, TJ. A lot of people are influenced into the �choices� they make after being mislead about what their choices actually are.
I'm not sure I follow you here? Could you give an example?
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But there are independent thinkers who are capable of making up their own minds no matter how much propaganda gets slung at them; unfortunately they�re in the minority.
If only a minority of the people can actually think for themselves, then hasn't democracy failed? What good is the will of the people if it's not "really" the will of the people?
A solution would be to only have independent thinkers franchised. Only we might run into trouble defining "independent thinkers".
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A problem with capitalism, in many countries, is the two party dominance, where you have the two right-wing parties getting all the media coverage because they are funded to the hilt by the corporations who want them to stay in power, because they know they�ll maintain the status-quo. This creates the illusion that people only have the choice of voting for one or the other of the right-wing parties. So many people vote for what they think in the lesser of the two evils or, as happens in the USA, many people just don't vote at all. That's the so called free market for you.
First of all I think it's unfair to impose US political traditions of extreme two party dominance on "most countries". While certainly the two biggest parties in some Western countries are center right, they're not nearly as dominant as the Democratic and Republican parties respectively.
But allow me to qualify that statement (that the two biggest parties in many countries are right-wing) by listing the following exceptions:
Spain: Spanish Socialist Workers' Party Italy: The Union (center-left) Sweden: Arbetarepartiet (Social democrats) Norway: Arbeiderpartiet (social democrats) Austria: Social democrats Finland: Social-democrats
And these are just the western European countries whose biggestparty is center-left or more. In fact, the VAST majority of European countries have Social democrats (or equivalent center-left politics) in the top 2. The exception being the UK.
Secondly, you make A LOT of assumptions when you claim that people are "tricked" into voting for right wing parties backed by big corporations. Is there evidence for this? Also, keep in mind that right and left wing are relative terms. The democratic party isn't right wing in the US, even if some of its members might be. Take a look at Mike Gravel and Denis Kucinich. They're where you are on the compass and they're running for president for the democrats. Yet they're losing.
So if this was a case of people voting right wing because they were told they only had the choice between the Democrats and Republicans, why is it they vote right wing within the party itself?
But I agree that it is a problem that corporations sponsor and influence policy. However, these days with the internet coming up to speed there are sites like http://www.opensecrets.org/ where you can actually see who gets donations from who and when. So via this site you can check if Hilary Clinton has gotten any money from the NRA before a debate on gun-control. That's also the free market for ya.
I am by no means a fiscal extremist, but I recognize that the free market, for all its trappings and shortcomings is a helluva thing considering the alternatives. Maybe some day we'll invent someting better, but until then...
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Anyway my point is that I don�t believe anybody really needs more than 500K a year. Capitalism has reached the point where 2% of the world�s population control 85% of the wealth. I think it�s wrong that a small minority of people indulge themselves in decadent excess whilst millions starve, but you just go ahead and keep defending that TJ.
And my point is, who's going to define what you "need"? How much do you need?
Actually, if we granted free trade to African nations and removed the tarriffs and protectionism in Europe, America and Australia, so that the world's poor could compete equally with the wealthy nations, we could elevate hundreds of millions of people OUT of poverty. In fact, already now the standards of living are on the rise in the third world, so just imgaine what we could do if we LET them compete with us on the free market? Fair trade will be infinitely more beneficial than hypocritical charity.
So, I'll disregard your unwarranted snide remark, and go ahead and defend the free market in this case. Because if we actually introduced a genuine free market globally, those figures you trump in your post would look very different indeed.
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
This is why I normally refrain from discussing politics or religion. It doesn't end until people get mad.
You mean "it doesn't end when people get mad" or better yet "it doesn't end." I'm usually a sucker for debates but trying to convince someone with completely opposite political or religious points of view to change their beliefs or even reconsider them or even consider reconsidering them is a waste of time. Even trying to make someone see things your way is difficult when they're already set with theirs.
That's not to say I'm not against debating politics or religion. On the contrary, I have a good time doing. Not on the Internet though. Political debates get pretty intense and I'd rather have one with someone in person rather than post a comment and wait 5-10 minutes to maybe several hours for someone else to post a retort.
Interesting test!! I am in the exact same spot as the Dalai Lama. That makes me happy! I hoped I'd be in the green area, but didn't realise how much so.
I'm not sure I follow you here? Could you give an example?
You’re saying that I think people can’t make choices for themselves. That’s not my position and you’re saying that it is my position and then attacking it; that’s a straw man.
If only a minority of the people can actually think for themselves, then hasn't democracy failed? What good is the will of the people if it's not "really" the will of the people?
Noam Chomsky once said, ‘Democracy is a great idea, somebody should try it sometime’. I agree with him.
First of all I think it's unfair to impose US political traditions of extreme two party dominance on "most countries". While certainly the two biggest parties in some Western countries are center right, they're not nearly as dominant as the Democratic and Republican parties respectively.
Secondly, you make A LOT of assumptions when you claim that people are "tricked" into voting for right wing parties backed by big corporations. Is there evidence for this? Also, keep in mind that right and left wing are relative terms. The democratic party isn't right wing in the US, even if some of its members might be.
Yes. The corporates keep backing the parties that are going to protect their interests and those parties keep winning. But when did I claim that people were tricked into voting for right-wing parties?
Right and left wing are not relative terms, just because you’re slightly left of George Bush, doesn’t mean that you’re left wing. I’d also dispute that the democrats in the US aren’t right-wing. The way they manage the economy when they’re in power seems very right-wing to me.
I am by no means a fiscal extremist, but I recognize that the free market, for all its trappings and shortcomings is a helluva thing considering the alternatives. Maybe some day we'll invent someting better, but until then....
Well that’s what I was advocating. I’ve already said I’m not advocating a return to communism or socialism, just a much more restricted form of capitalism.
And my point is, who's going to define what you "need"? How much do you need?
The job of any government is to set boundaries, they’re called laws. A government that truly had the best interests of the majority would legislate for a much more even distribution of wealth. Governments impose a whole range of restrictions on various things, why should income be any different? Oh that’s right the rich don’t want them to.
Actually, if we granted free trade to African nations and removed the tarriffs and protectionism in Europe, America and Australia, so that the world's poor could compete equally with the wealthy nations, we could elevate hundreds of millions of people OUT of poverty. In fact, already now the standards of living are on the rise in the third world, so just imgaine what we could do if we LET them compete with us on the free market? Fair trade will be infinitely more beneficial than hypocritical charity..
How can you call for an expansion of capitalism when the current levels of capitalism are already environmentally unsustainable?
So, I'll disregard your unwarranted snide remark, and go ahead and defend the free market in this case. Because if we actually introduced a genuine free market globally, those figures you trump in your post would look very different indeed.
There was nothing snide or unwarranted about it. You’re defending practices that have resulted in 2% of the world’s population controlling 85% of the world’s wealth, whilst millions of people are suffering from the ravages of poverty. I was just pointing that out.
Disclaimer: (these are jokes in reference to a hideous looking avatar I used at the time this was written. When I change to something else, this is not me being serious)
Hey TJ, I think these last few posts may be our fellow member’s way of saying that they've had enough of our little chat. Anyway, I think I've made my position and my reasons for my position clear, so I don't think I have anymore to say on the issues we've been discussing. I best get back to things related to screenwriting. Peace.
Woah! Easy there, buddy. IMDB? Let's not say things we can't take back. I know for a fact people are way more civil around here at their worst than the idiots over there.
I honestly don't think mockery's what's happening here. Typically, heated debates escalate until the threads are locked then sometimes, another thread pops up because someone's pissed off someone else got the last word. Of course, that thread is locked as well. That's what I've seen the most of, anyway. In any case, these kinds of threads often get a little too serious and start to lose their fun. It's only natural people might pop in and try to loosen things up or the thread simply takes off in another direction, as is often the case.
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