Just heard on the news that a kid in Florida took an overdose live on his webcam. He was egged on by viewers as well. I find this unbelievable, who would watch this? I get that most probably wouldn't have believed he was really gonna do it but still it's pretty weird to wnat to watch right?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Ho.....icle/200811315157683

Same thing happened in the UK maybe a year or so ago.

A man was egged on by a group on webcam to kill himself. I think he hung himself. People didn't think he was going to do it and when he did they all realized that they didn't really know where he lived so they couldn't call authorities where the man lived. It took hours before police had contacted the people that ran the webcam server  and tracked down where this guy lived.

We are becoming more and more like the Romans. We just don't have to go to the colliseum, we can watch absolutely anything from the comfort of our own homes...

That is just sick. I don't understand how anyone would want to encourage someone to take their own life, it's like those retards yelling "jump".

Quoted from Jordan When you see a person die up close and in real life it is a whole lot different.

This is true. I saw a woman get hit by a car and die and believe me no movie can even come close to showing how horrible that was.

Quoted from Grandma Bear We are becoming more and more like the Romans.

Sad but true. The quote from Gladiator rings true I'm afraid:

"Are you not entertained?"

We are so pathetics human beings!

I don't have much pity for those who commit suicide.  Unless you're terminally ill, there's no reason for it.

The guy didn't like himself because he thought he was a failure.  Well, he proved it by killing himself.

More Doritos for me.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe Unless you're terminally ill, there's no reason for it.

I think a lot suicide'ees would disagree with that rather ill informed remark (too bad they're dead).

That's just as weird as saying: "Why kill yourself when you're terminally ill? I mean, you're gonna die anyway, right?"

We may not agree with the reasons for someone taking their own life but I don't think we can apply a set of "rules" when it comes to suicide.

Most sucide attempts are simply cry's out for attention. Unfortunately some do intend to go through with it but I just don't get the idea of wanting to let people watch you do it. I guess this is the attention they crave?

I have to agree that some people will watch anything but nothings changed there. You're right about the Romans but of course the gladiator bouts were well watched and the entertainment at the time, and lets own up, who hasn't seen an ambulance and paramedics and joined the watching crowd? I'm digging myself in here I think? I guess what I'm saying is, everyones curiosity gets to them but you have to draw the line right.

I won't watch this, but I understand the paradox that is us. We human beings have a sick nature about us. I too am inclined with a desire to click on the link and watch. But I won't. Had I had a couple drinks of scotch, I could have easily clicked it just because.

What does that tell you? What is wrong with us? Why are we all so good and so bad? As a kabbalist, it's something I work with all the time.

My brother had killed himself. He was 44 at the time. Never egged on. He had a beautiful soul, a heart of gold and had a sense of humor like no one else I know. As crazy as it sounds, I often think it was his time. Because we have no other explanation for it.

Warm thoughts of encouragement despite this tragic loss for the loved ones here.

Sandra

Don't worry Sandra the link isn't a feed to watch it, it's just to a news page about it.

Also sorry for your loss.

Quoted from alffy Don't worry Sandra the link isn't a feed to watch it, it's just to a news page about it. Also sorry for your loss.

Thank you Alffy.

Sandra

Quoted from alffy I have to agree that some people will watch anything but nothings changed there. You're right about the Romans but of course the gladiator bouts were well watched and the entertainment at the time, and lets own up, who hasn't seen an ambulance and paramedics and joined the watching crowd? I'm digging myself in here I think? I guess what I'm saying is, everyones curiosity gets to them but you have to draw the line right.

The gladiator games have been reduced down to school kids punching it out on youtube.  I think this website actually encourages the fighting.  If they deleted all the fights on their site, the internet would collapse from the vaccuum.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe The gladiator games have been reduced down to school kids punching it out on youtube.

There are a lot more serious stuff out there for anyone to see than kids punching each other on YouTube...  sadly

Wow. This is crazy. I can't say it surprises me considering most people are sick in the head these days, some admit it and some don't. But still--this seems so unreal. Like something in a cheesy Horror flick.

--Julio

This is just sick. How could the people who egged the kid on live with themselves?

~Zack~

In defense of mankind, the people "egging" him on could have been random folk who had come across this kid's stream by chance.  During my early teenager days of the Internet and Yahoo Chat when it was still like the wild west, I spoke to lots of kids who talked about killing themselves.  None of them actually did it.  None of them were even remotely serious.  They were just moody kids like we all were at one point who said something they didn't mean so they can get some attention.  

How much can you actually believe on the Internet?  The people "egging" him on could have thought it was staged or were simply calling his bluff.  Does that make it better?  Well, no.  But "egging" him on to kill himself?  I can't buy the sincerity of that statement.  There's always two sides to the coin on the Internets.  

Quoted from dogglebe I don't have much pity for those who commit suicide.  Unless you're terminally ill, there's no reason for it. The guy didn't like himself because he thought he was a failure.  Well, he proved it by killing himself.

I sort of agree with this.  I do have sympathy with folk who took their own lives because they felt they had no way out...but I agree that there's no real reason to do it.  IMO it's selfish and taking the coward's way out.  

And just by looking at this kid's picture, he didn't look like he had that bad of a life.  Big wide smile, nice shades(obviously for style cause it was raining out), nice clothes, and he's in an SUV.  And he commits suicide?  Cause he's, like, sad or something?  Really?

Quoted from The boy who could fly there was this movie i saw not too long ago, it wasn't great but it had a good point, it was like a website where u can watch someone die and the more hits it got the quicker the person got killed, very neat idea, but i would never want to have anything to do with someone who would enjoy watching another person die like those faces of death film.

Just to put it out there, that movie is feardotcom. Not an awful film, but definitely had its moments of silliness.

Quoted from George Willson Just to put it out there, that movie is feardotcom. Not an awful film, but definitely had its moments of silliness.

Actually, I think the movie Jordan is talking about is Untraceable with Diane Lane. feardotcom is the movie about the killer website where if you go to the website you die in 2 days.

~Zack~

Quoted from greg ...but I agree that there's no real reason to do it.  IMO it's selfish and taking the coward's way out.

Even if you feel it's selfish or cowardly how do you get off saying there's no reason to do it? How do you know? Anyone who takes their own life has definitely got some serious issues and, obviously, if they thought that there was a way out of the darkness I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have taken the last resort.

Quoted from sniper Even if you feel it's selfish or cowardly how do you get off saying there's no reason to do it? How do you know? Anyone who takes their own life has definitely got some serious issues and, obviously, if they thought that there was a way out of the darkness I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have taken the last resort.

Serious issues?  Wow, I never met anyone with serious issues before.


Phil

What's your point, Phil?

To redress the balance I will make sure that the birth of my first child is streamed live on a web cam for all to see. I will not tell my wife this is happening to make sure it is fully realistic.

Of course I need to get her knocked up first.

Mmm.. maybe the conception should be streamed...

Quoted from Murphy Mmm.. maybe the conception should be streamed...

Only if your wife's hot, Murphy

Quoted from sniper What's your point, Phil?

Everyone has problems.

Unless you're dying of a terminal disease--and it's going to be a lingering, painful death--suicide is not a solution.


Phil

HaHa, good point. She thinks she is, but that does not really count. That's a no then. The world does not really want to see my beer gut anyway.

Seriously is a shame about this kid, I think kids today spend far too much time living their lives on the internet and playing video games that life just becomes a bit of a game to them. I think some parents really should be thinking about pulling the plug and kicking their kids outside the house sometimes.

Coming from the land of suicides (Sweden) I know a LOT of people who have taken that route. So many in fact that I can't even count them all. It's always a tragedy. I wouldn't call it selfish at all. Sure it hurts the people left behind, but people don't commit suicide unless they are really really down and just can't face another day. It's called depression and can make people not think logically...

Teenagers have it particularly hard nowadays with enormous pressures on them.

A few years ago my neighbor's 16 year old son son shot himself out back by the pool. He was an A student, a super nice guy, didn't drink or do drugs, but his parents were immigrants from India and they demanded that he'd have all A's and not screw up this opportunity to succeed in this country.

He felt he'd failed his parents by not being "the best" in school.

Parents have to be very alert to their kids and tak notice whenever there's a change of any kind in their kids behavior. Very sad...

If I was an opportunist guy, I would take advantage of this discussion to promote my book The Suicide, but unfortunately it wasn't translated yet.

I agree with Pia about suicide not being "selfish". Depression is not something that can be helped.

~Zack~

If I was the opportunist guy, I would tell people to read my short script--nevermind.


Phil

Quoted from Zack I agree with Pia about suicide not being "selfish". Depression is not something that can be helped.

Depression?  Or just depressed?  People like to toss that word around.  Not being happy is not the same as being depressed.  I know people who were/are clinically depressed and they're all still alive.

At the moment, I can recall only one person who committed suicide and, despite the extreme circumstances surrounded his death, I don't feel too badly for him (his family, yeah, but not him).


Phil

Quoted from sniper Even if you feel it's selfish or cowardly how do you get off saying there's no reason to do it? How do you know? Anyone who takes their own life has definitely got some serious issues and, obviously, if they thought that there was a way out of the darkness I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have taken the last resort.

Answer:

Quoted from dogglebe Serious issues?  Wow, I never met anyone with serious issues before.

Everyone has had serious issues at one point or another.  My family has dealt with plenty of BS and no one has ever thought of killing themselves as a way out.  And all of those issues worked out in the end anyway.  Is there never really a way out?  Seriously.  The kid who's subject of this thread was frickin' 19.  He was at the end of his road already?

Quoted from dogglebe, in no particular order I would tell people to read my...script..it's going to be a lingering, painful death

Ohhh...I would not wish that on anyone.

Quoted from bert Ohhh...I would not wish that on anyone.

That's funny.  I'm suddenly thinking of one person I wish would commit suicide.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe That's funny.  I'm suddenly thinking of one person I wish would commit suicide. Phil

And it's because they don't know how to resize pics in their sig.  Right?  Right?

Make that two.


Phil

Well, I love those little pug pups.


but as for getting back to the subject...

I've known a couple people (kids really) who have committed suicide...
and it's a damned shame.

Both of them were preventable, and both of them could have been murder, too.
(One had jewelery missing, and the other one happened in county jail).

Some teens think things are awful right now (at the second) with no thought about tomorrow. The pain blocks everything.  

Tomorrow or the following day could be one of the best days of your life. You have to wait and see.

I was the neighborhood mom. I listened to these troubled kids when their parents were too busy.

I think we could all do a little something to stop this if we really cared.

I think a smile and a hey how you doin' may be all a sad-faced person may need to help turn their day around for the better.

Cindy

Gotta back my man Rob in this one. Saying the only legit reason for suicide is a terminal illness is pretty silly to me.

Ever seen Whose Life is it Anyway?

But really if you wanna kill yourself, if you really thought it through, if you really feel like life's not for you, then fair game. Nobody chooses to be put in this world. But you should be able to choose if you wanna leave. Is it selfish? Well of course it is. But that's a stupid argument. You know what else is selfish? Going to college. Getting a new TV. Travelling. Getting drunk. Praying. Plugging your script in unrelated threads. Since when is doing something selfish a cardinal sin? Most of what we do, we do to help ourselves. The really selfish thing here would be to ask someone in pain to stay alive because him dying makes you uncomfortable.

I'm not advocating that people who feel down or are moody swallow a bunch of pills because it's convenient. Suicide should'nt be a solution to a momentary situation of a spur of the moment thing. I'm just saying ultimately, if someone truly wants to die (and I'm not talking about the kid in this case) they will find a way.

Teenagers are impressionable and sensitive creatures and should take some time to reflect before they decide life is too horrible. Wait til you're 21, and if you still wanna do it, then at least you gave it a shot. Until then you should try some alternatives...like moving to French Polynesia or starting a marching band, or learning Japanese or writing a script.

I mean, really, you have no idea how big the world is. The things that are out there. Phew. It takes your breath away sometimes.

Merry Christmas to every last one of you!

Quoted from Death Monkey But really if you wanna kill yourself, if you really thought it through, if you really feel like life's not for you, then fair game. Nobody chooses to be put in this world. But you should be able to choose if you wanna leave. Is it selfish? Well of course it is. But that's a stupid argument. You know what else is selfish? Going to college. Getting a new TV. Travelling. Getting drunk. Praying. Plugging your script in unrelated threads. Since when is doing something selfish a cardinal sin? Most of what we do, we do to help ourselves. The really selfish thing here would be to ask someone in pain to stay alive because him dying makes you uncomfortable.

Does going to college, getting a new TV, etc. leave your family and friends with deep feelings of guilt?  Comparing suicide to your other examples is plain stupid.  Killing yourself creates serious ramifications which the deceased doesn't have to deal with.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe Killing yourself creates serious ramifications which the deceased doesn't have to deal with.

I agree. So someone thinks they have problems and the only way out is to kill themselves. This then just leaves a whole load of issues for the people left behind, parents, family and friends. All of whom will be left devistated and somewhat feeling guilty they never got the chance to offer help and support. Suicide is such a selfish thing to do, and to do it for entertainment, which this was, is even worse.

Quoted from alffy Suicide is such a selfish thing to do, and to do it for entertainment, which this was, is even worse.

Or for attention.

Lemme know when I can mention my script....


Phil

What script...lol

Quoted from dogglebe Not being happy is not the same as being depressed.

I'm not happy when I lose in a video game, but that doesn't make me depressed.

~Zack~

Quoted from alffy What script...lol

Well, since you asked....

Actually, my script covered the motivation of Abraham Biggs Jr's 'fashion of death.'  

And his wmyspace is still up:  http://www.myspace.com/forgettingthepastagain.  

I guess leaving comments at this point would be tasteless, eh?


Phil

It makes *me* depressed, specially when my head gets chainsawed by a Ganado in RE 4. Does that mean I'm mentally-unstable?

Kidding! Don't go calling any mental institutions on me.

Seriously though, not all people deal with their issues the same as others. Some like the lazy, easy ways out (even when they're not depressed) and others don't. It's as simple as that.

Suicide is one thing. Suicide on webcam is another. It's attention seeking bullshit, equally as bad as people encouraging it. Retardation on both sides.

As far as suicide itself goes, I think it's hard to say. It's easy to assume someone has the same problems as you do and just has a lower threshold for stress/pain/whatever you want to call it but that's not always the case. I read an article the other day about a man who committed suicide after being evicted from the last house on an entire block scheduled to be torn down (with a chainsaw, no less). Obviously, everyone here has a home of some kind so unless you've been homeless before, there's not much room for anyone to talk.

Nevertheless, I've always found it an interesting topic, which is why I've written three scripts about it. There's so much conflicting things about it, it's not always easy to figure it all out.

Quoted from dogglebe Does going to college, getting a new TV, etc. leave your family and friends with deep feelings of guilt?  Comparing suicide to your other examples is plain stupid.  Killing yourself creates serious ramifications which the deceased doesn't have to deal with. Phil

Ah so one should stay alive to spare the people you leave behind? One should endure what quite possibly could be hell,  to avoid the serious ramifications one's death could have on  other people? Now who's being selfish?

The very notion that one has a responsibility to stay alive for the sake of others is in my humble opinion so incredibly misguided and narrowminded that I don't even know where to begin with a proper reply.

The can of beans...it is open!

TJ,

I knew you would be able to make a logical, intelligent comment in as few words as possible and still get the point across.

Quoted from Death Monkey Ah so one should stay alive to spare the people you leave behind? One should endure what quite possibly could be hell,  to avoid the serious ramifications one's death could have on  other people? Now who's being selfish? The very notion that one has a responsibility to stay alive for the sake of others is in my humble opinion so incredibly misguided and narrowminded that I don't even know where to begin with a proper reply.

One should learn to suck it up.  No one said that life would be easy.  Somehow I doubt this kid's life was any worse than any of ours.  I didn't find anything reading about him that showed that his life was so shitty.  If you hear about anything, let me know.

I've gone through a couple of times in my life that would put this kid to shame; I'm sure a lot us have.  And we survived.


Phil

Quoted from Death Monkey The very notion that one has a responsibility to stay alive for the sake of others is in my humble opinion so incredibly misguided and narrowminded that I don't even know where to begin with a proper reply.

So the guy who works at a blue collar job and decides to end his life has no responsibility to his wife or three kids to which his job is serving as their only source of income?  Really?

Hey, I read Bizarre Bazaar without killing myself.  Are you telling me that Bigg's life was worse than this?

Read my short on the subject.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe One should learn to suck it up.  No one said that life would be easy.  Somehow I doubt this kid's life was any worse than any of ours.  I didn't find anything reading about him that showed that his life was so shitty.  If you hear about anything, let me know. I've gone through a couple of times in my life that would put this kid to shame; I'm sure a lot us have.  And we survived. Phil

Maybe you should set up a  "shitty life gold standard" so people can cross check if their suicide gets your approval.

the question is: Why do we survive? Why do we endure? If your answer simply to endure. Simply to be, then that's bogus.

Here's what really doesn't gel with me. This entire notion of the indivudal submitting to society. The individiual having a responsibility to society (in whatever form) stay alive because society deems his pain isn't 'intolerable'.

That's just none of society's fucking business. Society doesn't get to tell you when you're in 'enough' pain to check out.

What about responsibility for your family?  This kid put his entire family, and all his close friends, in the shitter for a long long time.  They're all going to wonder if any of it was their fault and why they couldn't see the signs.  

The fact that he broadcasted his death on the internet  shows how selfish he was.

Let's see what's on HBO tonight?  What? Entourage again?  I gotta find a straight razor....

'Cuz I'm too weak to change the channel.


Phil


Phil

Quoted from greg So the guy who works at a blue collar job and decides to end his life has no responsibility to his wife or three kids to which his job is serving as their only source of income?  Really?

So blue collar households with only one breadwinner exist in a moral vacuum where suicide isn't permissable, unlike, say, white collar upper middle class WASPS where suicide is a-okay 'cause daddy already saved for little Mitch and Bonnie's college fund?

Really?

The degree to which suicide is ethical is determined by your social standing all of a sudden?

Then it's a really a practical question isn't it? Suffice his kids would be taken care of financially, then the argument vanishes...

Let's for the sake of argument say that only people whose kids had left home and were financially independent, would be elligible for suicide, would you be cool with that? No, let's take it one further. Only people who didn't have any immediate familiy were elligible.

But what about the person who finds your body? That's a head-case waiting to happen, right? Emotional trauma and all that. Better see a shrink. And that costs ya. You wouldn't dare lay that on some poor soul. And who's gonna clean up the mess? And your house will probably depreciate in value once people start talking about it. And it's gonna be super awkward for your neighbours.

Better just suck it up. Too much of a hassle for other people.

I think many of the posts on this thread show a classic misunderstanding of depression.

That's all I will say on that matter...

Quoted from dogglebe What about responsibility for your family?  This kid put his entire family, and all his close friends, in the shitter for a long long time.  They're all going to wonder if any of it was their fault and why they couldn't see the signs.   The fact that he broadcasted his death on the internet  shows how selfish he was. Let's see what's on HBO tonight?  What? Entourage again?  I gotta find a straight razor.... 'Cuz I'm too weak to change the channel. Phil Phil

I was never talking about the specific kid. I was talking about the principle of suicide. Whether or not taking your own life ultimately is your own decision and right.

If you wanna debate whether or not this specific punk was  ethically just in overdosing on Zanax then you're gonna have to do it with somebody else, 'cause that's not the business I'm in.

I think your problem is you see every suicidal person as a spoiled teenager who's really just begging for attention or someone who's never experienced real hurt so when it comes he or she overreacts and takes the easy way out.

But here's good old Maddox with a relevant thought:

Quoted Text Suicide isn't so bad, give it a chance. Thinking about suicide but you're not sure if it's the right thing to do? Here are some tips to help you decide whether or not killing yourself is a good choice: 1. Do you live at home but your parents are always making you clean your room and do your homework? It's a sure sign that they don't love you and that they want you to kill yourself. Why else would they make you clean your room? What are they going to do next, ground you? Make you wear braces? Don't kid yourself, the message is clear. 2. If you just got out of a bad relationship and you feel like things are never going to get better; you're right. Everyone knows that suicide is the only option, stop procrastinating. Look on the bright side, at least your ex will feel guilty for a couple of minutes--but don't count on it. 3. Depressed? Don't have any friends? I guess nobody told you, but being depressed and feeling lonely isn't normal. Everyone else is happy, and has lots of friends so there must be something wrong with you. Put the prozac away, what you need is rat poison. 4. Spill a drink at a party? Drop a plate of food in a restaurant? Nobody else has to live with that kind of embarrassment; you know what you have to do. 5. Flunked out of college? Don't know algebra? Here's a question you should know the answer to: Flunked out of college + Don't know algebra = Time for _____. Chances are you still don't know the answer, so here's a hint: it starts with an 's' and ends in 'uicide'. 6. Traffic jam? Sometimes bad luck isn't a coincidence. Do you really want to sit in traffic for another half hour? Look on the bright side, if you're a viking you'll be going to Valhalla. Then again, you're probably not, but eternal damnation in hell is probably the next best thing. 7. Telemarketers keep calling? It's easier to hang yourself than to get rid of a telemarketer, am I wrong? If you're lucky, Home Depot might be having a sale on rope. After all, you don't want to die letting people think you weren't frugal. 8. Flu? You realize that there's no cure for the flu, right? Well, no cure that doesn't involve painting the wall with your brains. 9. Flat tire? Do I have to spell it out for you? 10. College application get rejected? Take the hint. Hope you found this guide helpful, mention it in your suicide note. On second thought, why bother? Nobody will read it.

down on your luck and depression isn't exactly the same thing

I'm surprised there isn't more sympathy for the person in such pain the only way for them is to end it all  

Quoted from Grandma Bear TJ, I knew you would be able to make a logical, intelligent comment in as few words as possible and still get the point across.

'Twas a fluke, I'm sure...

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films I think many of the posts on this thread show a classic misunderstanding of depression.

They certainly do.  There's more to suffering from clinical depression than just being bummed out about losing your girlfriend or your job or not getting into the college of your choice.  These things are not reason enough to commit suicide over.

This guy isn't really that much different than the two killers from Columbine.  They wanted to be famous for something and to have people talk about them.  Since they couldn't make that difference in life, they did it in death, by committing suicide.


Phil

Quoted from Death Monkey I think your problem is you see every suicidal person as a spoiled teenager who's really just begging for attention or someone who's never experienced real hurt so when it comes he or she overreacts and takes the easy way out.

Unless you have no family or friends at all, your suicide will leave an impression on someone.  Chances are, it won't be good.  Even if you are that loner, you would have to take special care that no one finds your body, because you will leave an impression on the person that finds you.

I recently saw some footage of people on a public beach when a floater washed up.  I don't know the cause of death here, but it freaked out a lot of people.  Do you want your lasting mark on Earth to be that?


Phil

Are you saying that it's ok to commit suicide as long as you have no family and can do it in a neat and tidy way so no one will find the body disturbing? Or better yet, not find it at all?

I have to be honest here, but as someone who knows several people who's done this... I'm appalled that you seem to file them all under selfish... I knew them... they were not selfish people.

I said that, unless you have absolutely no friends or family, your death will have an impact on others.  And I didn't say that all people who committed suicide were selfish.  Earlier, I mentioned that I thought that terminally ill people committing suicide is different.


Phil

I thought I'd put this thread to bed by quoting the funniest line from the movie Tropic Thunder:

Jeff, Kirk, and Kevin have just learned Alpa is gay.

Jeff Portnoy: Alpa, if you untie me, I will literally suck your dick, right now.
Alpa Chino: Man, I told you for the last time, I love tha pussy!
Jeff Portnoy: I'll cradle the balls, stroke the shaft, work the pipe, and swallow the gravy. Get it over here, buddy. Let's do this.



Phil

IMHO the subject of this thread is not a laughing matter...

IMHO, Biggs shouldn't get this attention.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe IMHO, Biggs shouldn't get this attention. Phil

That's the truth. The fact people obsess about this garbage shows that it works.

Quoted from Death Monkey So blue collar households with only one breadwinner exist in a moral vacuum where suicide isn't permissable, unlike, say, white collar upper middle class WASPS where suicide is a-okay 'cause daddy already saved for little Mitch and Bonnie's college fund? Really? The degree to which suicide is ethical is determined by your social standing all of a sudden? Then it's a really a practical question isn't it? Suffice his kids would be taken care of financially, then the argument vanishes... Let's for the sake of argument say that only people whose kids had left home and were financially independent, would be elligible for suicide, would you be cool with that? No, let's take it one further. Only people who didn't have any immediate familiy were elligible.

No, you completely misinterpreted what I said.  Unfortunately for this debate, I just got back from Trans-Siberian Orchestra and my mind is still rocking out and I can't clearly write my thoughts, so I will respond to this tomorrow.

Goodnight

I can't speculate why he did it. Nor can I blame the chat where he did it. Look, some one online says to me, hey I'm killing myself, check it out. I'm not going to believe him. That's the simple fact.

I mean it's absolutely your right to take your life. It's a tragic choice but it's something that is still a right. You want to 86 yourself then I can't stop you. I can try to deter you, but I cannot force you to live if you don't think you can.

However, I don't think anyone but the kid is to blame.

Just to mark my exit in this thread ('cause I feel like this could be one of those londwinded debacles wher people end up getting pissed at each other), I thought I'd make my case one last time and leave it at that.

I think the notion that Phil presents, that you should weigh the emotional repercussions on the people who might find your body higher (because it might 'freak them out') than the suicidal's right to end his life is extremely selfish on the part of society. Suicide is one of the most basic rights there is. Does that mean that I think you should do it if you have a family that depends on you? No. I don't think you should get an abortion if you find out your kid is the "wrong" gender either, but I still support abortion as a right - as a principle - even though there are circumstances where I would disagree with it.

Because isn't Abortion selfish? But I would trust that on this board most of you would agree that it's a right. It's your own body, and that ultimately applies to suicide as well.

So what do we do? Do we set up a Suicide Committee where you have to send in an application and they will gauge if your life is shitty enough, if your're hopeless enough, if your exit is inconspicuous and discreet enough to meet the Kafkian standards of Uncle Sam?

By all means we should work to stop suicide by talking to people, by engaging them before they do it and all that. Because I'm sure many suicides can be avoided. But if someone truly wants to take his or her life, then we can't force them to go on living. And really what kind of parent would you be if you "sucked it up" and repressed your burgeoning suicidal tendencies? I wonder if that's gonna be a good home to grow up in...I mean as long as we're "thinking of the children".

Well, that's all I have to say about that.

For the record one of my mom's best friends committed suicide when I was 8.

No, my example was perfectly valid and still is.  

Yes, obviously having a suicidal parent would have an effect on a child---but wouldn't having a parent kill themselves ultimately be worse both in the short and long run?  Or bringing in the factors of this thread; perhaps he's not suicidal at all...perhaps he's just had a really bad day and maybe he's not the most mentally strong person out there.  Seriously, though.  Can you really justify a guy killing himself and leaving his family behind?  Simply because "it's his life"?  Whatever happened to personal responsibility?  Whatever happened to duty and sucking it up?  

Quoted from Death Monkey The very notion that one has a responsibility to stay alive for the sake of others is in my humble opinion so incredibly misguided and narrowminded that I don't even know where to begin with a proper reply.

Because leaving your family and friends and whatever other duties you have isn't a problem at all.  Because no one today wants to exercise personal responsibility.  I wouldn't say that opinion's narrowminded, I'd say the one giving the OK to completely abandon your life is narrowminded...my most humble opinion, of course.

This has nothing to do with social status.  You made the extreme example of comparing the decision of suicide with buying a TV.  Both are selfish?  Okay.  Both have the same weight?  Get outta here.  Killing yourself when you have great personal responsibility, not selfish?  Hmmm.

I've had a few friends who have considered suicide before(some were at different levels, from just thinking about it to actually taking action).  None of them went through with it.  When they had begun the recovery process, all of them told me "I was being selfish" and also mentioned stuff about how their friends and family would have been devastated.  Yeah, it's their life, but "when you got a job to do, you gotta do it well," whatever that may be(and that quote isn't referring to suicide just to avoid any confusion ha-ha).

Obviously I'm sticking to one extreme here with the family guy but I think it speaks loud enough volumes.  There's no justifiable reason for him to kill himself IMO, so I really don't believe there's a justifiable reason for anyone else too, either.  Yes, life sucks, but things can get better.  You just have to gut it out!  There's no reason to take your own life.  It's a gift that you should use in every capacity.  

You know how a lot of people in concentration camps survived?  Just the thought of a better world outside of the camp gates was enough to keep a lot of those folks sane.  Just the hope that if they could gut this out they'd arrive to something better.  Check out Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz.  Good read.

Abortion and terminally ill is another discussion entirely and probably one that could go on for days.

Quoted from greg No, my example was perfectly valid and still is.   Yes, obviously having a suicidal parent would have an effect on a child---but wouldn't having a parent kill themselves ultimately be worse both in the short and long run?  Or bringing in the factors of this thread; perhaps he's not suicidal at all...perhaps he's just had a really bad day and maybe he's not the most mentally strong person out there.  Seriously, though.  Can you really justify a guy killing himself and leaving his family behind?  Simply because "it's his life"?  Whatever happened to personal responsibility?  Whatever happened to duty and sucking it up?

I never justified a guy committing suicie and leaving his family. Not everything that should be legal is moral. I wouldn't justify a guy with a loving family commit adultery, but I wouldn't wanted it to be illegal. What I'm saying is, that it's within his right by virtue of principle. And yes, because it is his life. Whatever happened to personal freedom?

Quoted Text Because leaving your family and friends and whatever other duties you have isn't a problem at all.  Because no one today wants to exercise personal responsibility.  I wouldn't say that opinion's narrowminded, I'd say the one giving the OK to completely abandon your life is narrowminded...my most humble opinion, of course.

I'm curious, are you pro-life? Because that exact argument can be applied to abortion.  Personal freedom VS personal responsibility.

Quoted Text This has nothing to do with social status.  You made the extreme example of comparing the decision of suicide with buying a TV.  Both are selfish?  Okay.  Both have the same weight?  Get outta here.  Killing yourself when you have great personal responsibility, not selfish?  Hmmm.

Hmmm, indeed. Here's what I wrote in my very first post in this thread:

Quoted Text Is it selfish? Well of course it is.

Quoted Text I've had a few friends who have considered suicide before(some were at different levels, from just thinking about it to actually taking action).  None of them went through with it.  When they had begun the recovery process, all of them told me "I was being selfish" and also mentioned stuff about how their friends and family would have been devastated.  Yeah, it's their life, but "when you got a job to do, you gotta do it well," whatever that may be(and that quote isn't referring to suicide just to avoid any confusion ha-ha).

Let's not break out the anecdotes now. They are not arguments. And again, I already agreed that suicide is selfish.

Quoted Text Obviously I'm sticking to one extreme here with the family guy but I think it speaks loud enough volumes.  There's no justifiable reason for him to kill himself IMO, so I really don't believe there's a justifiable reason for anyone else too, either.  Yes, life sucks, but things can get better.  You just have to gut it out!  There's no reason to take your own life.  It's a gift that you should use in every capacity.

I'm sorry, but this opinion is incredibly arrogant, IMO, presuming to know what other people's lives are like. You don't get to judge if someone's life 'isn't so bad'. You just don't. Life is a gift, and the great thing about gifts is that you can return them if you don't like them.

And how exactly do you jump from "there's no justifiable reason for Bluecollar Mcsinglebreadwinner to kill himself" to "there's no justifiable reason EVER for ANYONE"? Isn't that like going from "Abortion is wrong if you only do it because you think girls are weak and don't deserve life" to "Abortion is always wrong". There's a logical gap you need to explain, because right now you're basing your entire case on one extreme example. That would be like if I based my entire case for the right to suicide on Happy McQuadraplaegic who lost his entire family in the car crash that rendered him paralyzed from the neck down and burned 89% of his body, and which makes every second of his life living hell, and which makes it impossible for him to do the only other thing he ever loved: Sculpting. However he will be able to live for years to come.

Quoted Text You know how a lot of people in concentration camps survived?  Just the thought of a better world outside of the camp gates was enough to keep a lot of those folks sane.  Just the hope that if they could gut this out they'd arrive to something better.  Check out Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz.  Good read.

Please, skip the life-affirming hallmark channel schmaltz. It's not an argument. It's a day time emmy.

Quoted Text Abortion and terminally ill is another discussion entirely and probably one that could go on for days.

It's not another discussion entirely though.

Seriously. You think life is percious and everyone should think so too. Great. Don't agree. But great. I love life. I have absolutely no reason to commit suicide. But I think the principle in the right to end your life is at the cornerstone of free will. Are you a bastard if you leave your family behind? Yeah, probably. But that's the nasty thing about principles. They cover the bastards too. Something being a right is not the same as something being moral.

It's not an obligation to be alive. It's a privilege. It is, as you put it, a gift.

And seriously, now I'm really done. I don't have time for these long threads anymore, and we're not getting anywhere anyway.

Live long and prosper. Or not. I'm pro-choice.

Quoted Text Whatever happened to personal freedom?

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Quoted Text I'm curious, are you pro-life? Because that exact argument can be applied to abortion.  Personal freedom VS personal responsibility.

No, I'm pro-choice.  I see where you would draw the parallel, but the reasoning behind a suicide vs. an abortion are two completely different contexts.  

Quoted Text I'm sorry, but this opinion is incredibly arrogant, IMO, presuming to know what other people's lives are like. You don't get to judge if someone's life 'isn't so bad'. You just don't.

Oh bah-humbug.  When someone's making a stink about wanting to kill themselves, I think I'm within my own right to think if their life is really that crappy or not.  What can be so horrific about the kid's life who triggered this thread?  What was so awful about his life that he needed to stream his own death on his webcam in front of random people on the Internets?  Not enough friends?  No one liked him?  Low self-esteem?  It's not like he put a gun to his head and did something horribly violent; he did something he knew would get a reaction out of a great number of people.  Why?  Probably because he's lonely.  Sucks, but there's ways around it.  

Quoted Text And how exactly do you jump from "there's no justifiable reason for Bluecollar Mcsinglebreadwinner to kill himself" to "there's no justifiable reason EVER for ANYONE"? Isn't that like going from "Abortion is wrong if you only do it because you think girls are weak and don't deserve life" to "Abortion is always wrong". There's a logical gap you need to explain, because right now you're basing your entire case on one extreme example.

Certainly.  I use that extreme example to illustrate my argument of personal responsibility.  The way I see it, a family should be enough for a guy to think...hmmm, I think my life kinda sucks right now, but I don't want to end my life because it would have this, this, and that repercussions.   Likewise, someone younger who doesn't have the responsibility to take care of a family, well, where do their responsibilities lie?  School?  Their summer job?  Passing their marketing class? Relative cake compared to the hardships that happen later in life.  Now, am I an expert in this?  Of course not.  I can only go by what I've observed.  There was the story brought up of a 16 year old who killed himself because he felt he failed his family's strict rules of being the best in school.  Trust me, I sympathize with that and wish I could have helped him out, but isn't high school a blip on the radar for what you're in for the rest of your life, i.e. what family guy is going through some 30 years later?  I don't see these problems as solid reasoning to take one's life and am always going to think there's another way around it.

Quoted Text Please, skip the life-affirming hallmark channel schmaltz. It's not an argument. It's a day time emmy.

Just sayin'.  If someone had a reason to want to kill themselves, I'd say someone in the camps did.  

Quoted Text But I think the principle in the right to end your life is at the cornerstone of free will.

That's where we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

You said your bit and I said mine.  I'll back off as well.

I have never agreed with suicide. I know some people live more difficult lives than others, but I seriously have trouble believing that one's life is so difficult, and that they no longer have any purpose in the world whatsoever, with suicide being the only alternative. Everyone grows through troubles. It happens. It's life. What grow and learn from them. Some of these people don't even try to change the issues in their lives.

Quoted Text Because isn't Abortion selfish? But I would trust that on this board most of you would agree that it's a right. It's your own body, and that ultimately applies to suicide as well.

Whoa, whole 'nother topic, but unless you were raped, I definitely think abortions are selfish. You shouldn't have been f***in' around without protection! Whoops!

I've been gone a couple of days and I was really hoping this thread would have died down because some of the opinions here really bring out the worst in me. I see Phil and Greg are still trying to apply rules as to when you should be allowed to commit suicide.

What your basically saying is that everyone is the same and should handle trouble, hardship, pain etc. in the same way - that is, to get over it. Guess what? No one's alike. Not everyone is strong enough to pull themselves up by the root of their hair, not everyone has someone or something to turn to when the going gets tough. I think the two of you are being off the chart judgemental.

Will a suicide affect the people around you? Of course it will...and so will murder, natural causes, sickness, accidents etc. But if you think that someone suicidal will go through the rationale of weighing this affect against their own personal pain then you're in for a rude awakening.

Quoted from sniper I've been gone a couple of days and I was really hoping this thread would have died down because some of the opinions here really bring out the worst in me. I see Phil and Greg are still trying to apply rules as to when you should be allowed to commit suicide. What your basically saying is that everyone is the same and should handle trouble, hardship, pain etc. in the same way - that is, to get over it. Guess what? No one's alike. Not everyone is strong enough to pull themselves up by the root of their hair, not everyone has someone or something to turn to when the going gets tough. I think the two of you are being off the chart judgemental. Will a suicide affect the people around you? Of course it will...and so will murder, natural causes, sickness, accidents etc. But if you think that someone suicidal will go through the rationale of weighing this affect against their own personal pain then you're in for a rude awakening.

Chill.  People are giving their opinions on the subject, and mine happen to be that, no, I don't think there's any reason to commit suicide because x, x, and x.

Quoted from greg \I just got back from Trans-Siberian Orchestra \ Goodnight

Jesus!  Somebody put this guy on suicide watch!

Yeah, but I don't think I'm allowed to, Bert.