This movie belongs on the list with Hostel, North, and Patch Adams, as one of the worst movies ever made.  This movie sure lives up to the title, I felt sick watching this,

This movie is nothing but left wing, liberal emotional porn, and if ur gonna make porn make something you can jerk off to, not something that makes you want to puke.

First of all this movie only shows one side, that is it, he only shows us what he wants us to see.  Micheal Moore almost commits treason with this film, we need Jack Bauer here to teach this fat fuck a lesson or two.

He does make Canada look good, but his facts are wrong, we do wait more than 10 min to seek medical attention, he only interviews people first in line, it not as glamorous as he lets it looks.

The ending is the most disgusting.  The man who runs the biggest anti Micheal Moore site, his wife came down with a disease so he had to choose between his wife and the website, so he chose his wife, and Micheal Moore says in the film "I decided to send him a check of $12,00 anonymously"  hey you fat fuck, you just said anonymously, but have no worries promoting that fact in your fictional film, what a hypocrite. and now the website is still up and running,

This movie was made by the weak minded for the weak minded, this is the worst piece of trash ever to be put on film/

Now I have to go take a shit cause this movie gave me the runs,

What do you expect from Michael Moore?  The truth?

In Moore's Roger and Me, he wrote how the town of Flin, Michigan was destroyed when GM closed down its plant.  Moore didn't mention that Flint was building a huge convention center at the time.  When the film came out, no one wanted to hold a convention in Flint because they thought it was a ghost town.  It was Moore's fault that Flint died.

In Bowling for Columbine. Moore showed footage of Charleston Heston say, "They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hands."  He made it seem that Heston said this in regards to the gun ban proposed after the Columbine incident.  The footage used was so far before Columbine that you see Cornelius and Vera jumping around in the background.

Moore is a master of film editing.  He does magic when it comes to twisting the truth.  The only one with more movie magic is Harry Potter.


Phil

I just finished watching Sicko and thought it was pretty interesting. I guess Michael was trying to say that America should have universal health care and the only reason it doesn't is because big business makes too much money out of things being the way they are.  

He also pointed out that if countries like Cuba, England and France can afford to cover their people with universal health then the USA has no excuse not to.

Given the subject matter of this film, I couldn't say I enjoyed it, but I am glad I saw it. I hope Michael's next doco is about The War on Drugs; I'm sure he could punch a few holes in the arguments of the zero tolerance crowd.  

I caught a screening of this last night and thought it was pretty interesting.  I think the whole right/left approach is more of an illusion because what he illustrates is correct that big business finds a way to run things.  It also happened in the 1800s with the likes of Carnegie and Rockefeller and it wasn't until Teddy Roosevelt told them to shut the hell up that the government had more of a say in, you know, their own country.

While watching this I did feel some envy for the comparisons he was making to France, Britain, Canadia and even Cuba.  But then I thought...there's gotta be another side to this.  It can't be that simple.  Of course, that could just be me being an American and never being exposed to it.  If someone can explain that, please let me know.  

Overall I did enjoy it.  I know of the aggravations that health insurance can present but God forbid you may actually need it one day, then you'll be thankful to have it.  Late one night in 2004 my mom needed to go to the hospital for a blood infection.  She wound up staying in the ICU for a week.  The final bill came out to around $250,000, but with insurance, we wound up paying about $5000.  I remember when we first arrived at the hospital they asked for her insurance card.  At the time I didn't really understand because I was a retarded high schooler on the verge of moving to Sacramento, but now I get it.

Neat film.  Pretty good.

Quoted from Takeshi I hope Michael's next doco is about The War on Drugs; I'm sure he could punch a few holes in the arguments of the zero tolerance crowd.

I heard he's attacking the issue of homophobia next

American population: 302,824,000+ people
French population: 64,102,140 people
English population (2006 estimate): 50,714,000
Cuban (2006 estimate): 11,382,820 people

This is from Wikipedia, but it gives you the rough numbers. How are we going to give universal health care to 3M+ people? Raise taxes? Kill people off?

I'm all for kicking the violent illegal immigrants out. They go back and hurt people in their own country.

Quoted from ABennettWriter American population: 302,824,000+ people French population: 64,102,140 people English population (2006 estimate): 50,714,000 Cuban (2006 estimate): 11,382,820 people This is from Wikipedia, but it gives you the rough numbers. How are we going to give universal health care to 3M+ people? Raise taxes? Kill people off?

Not wasting so much money on military spending would be a good start.

Touche!

Quoted from ABennettWriter American population: 302,824,000+ people French population: 64,102,140 people English population (2006 estimate): 50,714,000 Cuban (2006 estimate): 11,382,820 people

Ah, and that would be one of the reasons.  Thank you.  

A former member of British Parliament was interviewed in the film and one thing he said that I really liked was "if you can put money into going to war and killing people then you can put money into helping people."  

Not giving drivers licenses to illegal immigrants would be a good start, too.

If you want universal health care your gonna have to raise your taxes.  The taxes here in Canada are horrible, half my paycheck is taken away from taxes, if I made $100,000 a year that wouldn't be so bad, but when you make $20,000 a year it hurts a lot.  So count yourself lucky you don't pay as much as us Canadians.

If my taxes are going into to worthwhile things like public health, free education and better public transport, then tax away. As long as my family and I have food in our stomachs, a roof over our heads and a bit of spare change for entertainment, we're happy.

Quoted from Takeshi If my taxes are going into to worthwhile things like public health, free education and better public transport, then tax away. As long as my family and I have food in our stomachs, a roof over our heads and a bit of spare change for entertainment, we're happy.

Not everyone might feel that way though. Some people have grander dreams tha just getting by, and the state shouldn't smother them.

Now I'm for free education and free healthcare (to some extent) but here in Denmark we have the highest taxes in the world (I pay 50% and I only work freelance) so I'm for lowering them here, simply because a lot my money goes to stuff I don't consider a necessity (like retirement pensions or *shudder* youth houses).

I don't think the state should pay for everything, but it should provide the essentials.  

50% is not too bad. If someone with "grand dreams" made a few million a year they'd still be pretty well off. Crikey, how much money does a person need?

Some dreams are loftier and more expensive than others. Some people want to travel once a year, some people want a summer cottage, others might like to start a production company and make movies.

My point is, it's not the state's job to tell me how much money "I need". If I work hard enough I should be rewarded for that, not punished.

I think 50% is a lot considering I only make about $3000 a year.

I'm for a safety net that provides the essentials. You shouldn't be able to just wither and die in a healthy society. But it should be just that, the essentials.

Quoted from Death Monkey I'm for a safety net that provides the essentials. You shouldn't be able to just wither and die in a healthy society. But it should be just that, the essentials.

So we agree then. Excellent.  

However, to make it possible for everybody to have the essentials, in this country, we're going to have slug big business and the rich with heftier taxes. Having 1% of the population control 80% of the wealth is just plain wrong.  

I see this was nominated for The Best Documentary Oscar. This is like his third nomination in five years. It has to be a record. Good on ya, Big Fella.    

Sicko is very deeply flawed as a documentary much like many of the arguments on here in favor of universal Healthcare.

In the UK there is no free further education, most graduates are leaving Uni with US $20-$40k worth of debt. I have no idea where this idea of free further education in the UK comes from but it is a lie.

The British National Health Service (NHS) is becoming a joke and every year it is becoming more an more unmanageable. The amount of money that it sucks up is beyond belief and yet the level of service it delivers gets worse year on year. The problem with the NHS is that it keeps people alive much, much longer. That is fine for people who contribute because they longer they live the more taxes they will pay to help the economy and fund the NHS. But the majority of people who's lives are being extended do not contribute into the purse at all, so the extra money needed has to be found from those that do. So taxes go up even more - It just cannot sustain itself for much longer and will implode very soon. They are already talking about not treating obese people, heavy drinkers and smokers in order to save money, the theory being anyone who falls under this category have made themselves ill. But they are happy to pay for nose jobs if some teenager can say that their crooked nose causes them mental anguish.

I am serious, many new treatments and drugs are not available at all on the NHS because they are too expensive so people with cancers and such end up going private anyway just to get the treatment they need. Waiting lists are sometimes a year long for major operations, It is impossible to find a NHS dentist now so many people just go without.

The level of TAX they pay in the UK is ridiculous, before I left I worked out that I was paying somewhere around 70% of my income in TAX. That is no lie. Not only is there my 40% income tax, but my 10% national Insurance contributions (these go towards paying the rent for jobless people and a small state pension that by time I retire will not exist anymore). I drink and smoke and the level of TAX on that is shockingly high. TAX makes up the majority of the fuel cost in the UK - around $3.00 a litre!. 17.5% VAT on all services and goods. And $3000 per year council tax that you have to pay just for breathing air.

And a very great deal of all that money go towards the NHS and GW Bush's world takeover.


I moved to Australia last year, probably a similar health service to the US. We will need to take out basic insurance and pay for any care we receive.  But oh my god you will not believe how much more money I have, I pay so much less in taxes it is unbelievable. And yet Australia is a much better country and my quality of life is 100% better.

My point is this, don't believe anything that Michael Moore tells you - he is full of shit! And be careful what you wish for!!

Quoted from Murphy I moved to Australia last year, probably a similar health service to the US. We will need to take out basic insurance and pay for any care we receive.

That's not true. You can see a doctor for free over here on Medicare. Two years ago I got my appendix out and have been to see other health specialists for free. I don't pay a cent for basic health insurance. But they need to spend more and get those elective surgery waiting lists down, which is exactly what our new government has pledged to do. Bring it on, I say.

Quoted from Takeshi That's not true. You can see a doctor for free over here on Medicare. Two years ago I got my appendix out and have been to see other health specialists for free. I don't pay a cent for basic health insurance. But they need to spend more and get those elective surgery waiting lists down, which is exactly what our new government has pledged to do. Bring it on, I say.

Not on our visa! Maybe when if/when we become permanent residents. Not sure about the new government, be careful what you wish for. I have just lived through 10 years of a labor government.

I was talking about the general population. I forgot you were on a visa. Ha. We've got wall to wall to wall labor governments now. But to tell you the truth I don't think it makes a lot of difference; over the years the Labor Party have become economic conservatives too.    

As for Michael Moore, come on, three Oscar nominations in the space of five or so years is a mighty effort.  

What can I say he has a lot of friends in Hollywood, they are natural supporters of his. But it is 90% politics and 10% movies when it comes to his Oscars.

He does what he does very well and with a certain amount of style I grant you, I just thinks he listens to his press a little too much and had forgotten how to make a serious documentary. he really does lie to make things fall his way and that does not make for a good documentary maker.

Everyone lies, Murphy.

Quoted from Takeshi Everyone lies, Murphy.

You sound like Gregory House.

I'll take that as a compliment. I bet House would've liked Sicko.

Moore does what he does in a very entertaining fashion. Even as someone fairly liberal, I kept thinking "oh come on" during a number of sequences. Anyone who watches his movies and accepts them as 100% gospel without doing any checking themselves are as misguided as someone who watches Fox News and buys into it. Some things presented in the movie are indisputible, some are just eye rolling moments. I watched it, had a good laugh along the way, then came back to 100% reality.

And to correct the first post above, this is not the worst piece of trash ever put on film. That honor goes to Boogie Nights

Well I finally saw the entire documentary. Here are my thoughts:

First, While I had seen the first half hour before and then turned it off because Michael's antics were annoying me, I will say that my first impression is that it's not Moore's worst documentary. That spot is held by Fahrenheit 9/11.

Even though I'm sure some people on these boards have come to see me as somewhat "right wing" I actually agree with free healthcare (to a certain point) and free education, the same way I believe in free police and fire departments (as the movie highlights as well). By Free I mean through taxes of course. However, healthcare should cover necessary operations, not frivolous check-ups (You have no idea how much people born after 1980 will want to be checked for here, because it's free) or plastic surgery. You lose your finger, you shouldn't have to pay for it to be re-attached.

Despite agreeing with Moore on a lot of these issues, I just couldn't help get nauseous during the movie. Let's be absolutely clear about this. Sicko is propaganda. It's a one-sided commerical for universal healthcare, propped up by the Tear-Jerker Strings Quartet and Moore's smug and infinitely condescending voice-over that goes something like this:

French woman: In France we don't pay anything for healthcare or education!

Michael Moore (pretends to be surprised): You're kidding me? Oh My God. that is amazing. Now, Instead of delving into figures and statistics let's dwell on these anecdotes to support my claim, which you as a viewer have no idea whether or not is legitimate since I offer pretty much no sources for anything.

Seriously Moore's idea of "depth" in a documentary is nicely illustrated when he's in Canada acting surprised that healthcare is free. First he shows one clinic that's smoothly run with nice staff and no waiting. He then does a VO that rhetorically questions whether he just happened to come across a really good hospital. CUT to another hospital "in the other end of town" where it's just as nice. THAT'S NOT HOW YOU GENERALIZE YOUR POINT!

You can't go from one example to another example and deduce that "I guess it's like that EVERYWHERE in Canada". You go from example to facts, to statistics. As Socrates taught us; anecdotes or pathos cannot win the argument alone. At least it shouldn't...

Moore also does his share of "nine-elevening" his points home, hi-jacking a traumatic and unrelated tragedy in the name of his cause. Poor taste.

And honestly I'm just getting sick of Moore's voice. I mean, god bless him that he doesn't appear more than he does in the film, but can't he just put subtitles in paklce of his voice or hire James Earl Jones to do it. I hate hate hate Moore's "I'm just an average Joe six-pack BUT" tone.

While I do agree that there is a problem with healthcare in the US, obviously I'll have to spend the next week or so verifying Moore's facts on my own to even begin to get a proper picture of things. That's really the problem with watching Moore movies. If you just watch the film and take its truths at face value you're not gonna know truth from lie. And since Moore has no intention of supplying sources himself, you have to do it yourself. It's such a hassle. Like proofreading poetry for a 2nd grader.

That's not to say that didn't get all choked up when he throws these horror stories at you. It IS horrible and tragic, but that doesn't make it a cogent or intelligent documentary. It's just a collage of emotional porn on Moore's part.

P.S.

Michael Moore resolves America's tense foreign relations with Cuba faster than Rocky solves the cold war in Rocky IV. Pretty impressive.


P.P.S.

I wanna recommend the documentary "Manufacturing Dissent" about Michael Moore made by left wing Canadians. It's not perfect but it has some very interesting interviews with some of those people interviewed by Moore who now feels very misrepresented.

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-movie/m-1195148751/s-new/

As far as Cuba's medical system goes, I work in the medical supply field and you'd be shocked to hear the kinds of items people ask us for to send to relatives in Cuba. Just 'cause it's paid for doesn't mean the care is good.
I'd be willing to bet most free clinics here give better care.

Content aside;
  Michael Moore makes fictional documentaries. Doccu-Drama.
  Once again the detail is almost drowned by the creator.
  Is a documentary journalism or entertainment? If an attempt at pure journalism then these fail. The stunt scenes these all end with are scripted fiction. They weaken the argument in an attempt to pull at the heartstrings. If the reality can't do it on its own then there is a problem. In Sicko the image of the woman being dumped on the CCTV had more real impact than the Cuba stunt.
  If Michael Moore stayed with the fact, the real and avoided manufacturing pathos his documentaries would have more impact.
  Granted he may also have a smaller audience.

Quoted from The boy who could fly okay, I just got my dental bill in the mail, $636, had to wait a VERY long time to get in as well.  When I lived in Minnesota, I had a Dental Appointment, waited 3 weeks, and paid not a dime.  Micheal Moore says us Canadians never wait in line and don't pay a dime, I got the receipt to prove he is a lying cunt.

I'm starting think you don't like MM very much, Jordan.

But seriously, didn't Sicko only look at the medical system? I think medical and dental are separate issues. For example, here in Australia when you file for medical insurance you have hospital cover and then extras. Dental usually comes under extras.

It’s a bummer about the bill, though. I hope your teeth turned out alright, mate.

Yeah here in Denmark dental is separate too.

Personally, I just view Moore's work as entertaining works of fiction and nothing more.  I enjoy watching them, and they usually have a well-executed story arc and some good humour.

I don't see the point in bashing him endlessly.  If you know his films are one-sided propaganda (as, I might add, a huge percentage of documentaries, news casts, and politician's speeches are) then ignore them or enjoy them for what they are.

Quoted from Heretic Personally, I just view Moore's work as entertaining works of fiction and nothing more.  I enjoy watching them, and they usually have a well-executed story arc and some good humour. I don't see the point in bashing him endlessly.  If you know his films are one-sided propaganda (as, I might add, a huge percentage of documentaries, news casts, and politician's speeches are) then ignore them or enjoy them for what they are.

I follow you to some extent.

When, in Bowling for Colmbine moore interviews that gun nut and makes him take out his gun under his pillow, that's really entertaining cause that is a great character. There are many other examples of great characters being caught saying stupid things. That's entertaining.

I thought the white people who were hired to play black people in the extremely racist (but innovative) Birth of a Nation was hilarious as well.

However, I don't think there's anything entertaining in misrepresentation of facts, wrong numbers etc. There's nothing fun about being misled, being lied to about a serious political topic. Not when his films are taken seriously. Not when his films win an Oscar and the Palm D'or. That is NOT cool.

And that's why I'm bashing him endlessly.

Just saw Sicko tonight and I thought it was pretty good actually. Granted, Michael Moore - as always - overstates the message to get his point across. That's how he works - we all know that, but once you strip away the layers of bullshit his point is actually a very good one. Michael Moore's goal with all his movies (I won't call them documentaries) is to start a discussion, to get people involved, to make them question the authorities - as any citizen should.

His tecnique is to pick one or a couple of tragic stories and them generalize them. That may not be fair or even right but that's how you get a message across. Kevin Spacey said it just right in 'Seven'; "When you want people's attention you don't tap them on the shoulder - you hit them with a sledgehammer." That is exactly what Michael Moore does.

And I respect him for it cos' he's gone up against some of the biggest power brokers in the US; the right wing'ers, the bible holders, the government, Big Oil, Big Insurance etc. And these are all factions that need a counterweight. Their influence is way too big.

Now, being from Europe, the whole medical insurance thing is alien to me. Sure, we probably pay a higher percentage of taxes over here but I do with a smile cos' I know that if my kids get sick or need an operation, their fate is not in the hands of an insurance company.

PS. I have no problems with insurance companies per se - I work for one (not medical insurance, though).

Quoted from sniper Just saw Sicko tonight and I thought it was pretty good actually. Granted, Michael Moore - as always - overstates the message to get his point across. That's how he works - we all know that, but once you strip away the layers of bullshit his point is actually a very good one. Michael Moore's goal with all his movies (I won't call them documentaries) is to start a discussion, to get people involved, to make them question the authorities - as any citizen should. His tecnique is to pick one or a couple of tragic stories and them generalize them. That may not be fair or even right but that's how you get a message across. Kevin Spacey said it just right in 'Seven'; "When you want people's attention you don't tap them on the shoulder - you hit them with a sledgehammer." That is exactly what Michael Moore does. And I respect him for it cos' he's gone up against some of the biggest power brokers in the US; the right wing'ers, the bible holders, the government, Big Oil, Big Insurance etc. And these are all factions that need a counterweight. Their influence is way too big. Now, being from Europe, the whole medical insurance thing is alien to me. Sure, we probably pay a higher percentage of taxes over here but I do with a smile cos' I know that if my kids get sick or need an operation, their fate is not in the hands of an insurance company. PS. I have no problems with insurance companies per se - I work for one (not medical insurance, though).

But doesn't he hurt the discussion rather than help it by basing it on fabricatiosn or lies?

That's like manking an anti-war documentary about a fictitious war. Why not make one about the ones that are actually going on, with actual facts, without overstating?

I just don't understand how we can shrug and go "that's just his style", when his movies are in fact treated as documentaries, and taken to be true. We don't watch Fox News and shrug, "that's just their style", we're outraged of their obvious manipulation.

I agree the powerbrokers need a counterweight, but does that mean any sorry slob will do? Does that mean lying is suddenly okay, because we agree with his bottomline? And though Moore always likes to picture himself as the average joe taking on the establishment, let's not forget that Miochael Moore is one of the most influential men in the U.S. today. He IS the establishment.

I mean, either propaganda is pernicious or it isn't. I just don't buy the whole "the end justifies the means" argument...

P.S.

Can you hook me up with a sweet deal on insurance?  

Quoted from Death Monkey I just don't understand how we can shrug and go "that's just his style", when his movies are in fact treated as documentaries, and taken to be true. We don't watch Fox News and shrug, "that's just their style", we're outraged of their obvious manipulation. I agree the powerbrokers need a counterweight, but does that mean any sorry slob will do? Does that mean lying is suddenly okay, because we agree with his bottomline? And though Moore always likes to picture himself as the average joe taking on the establishment, let's not forget that Miochael Moore is one of the most influential men in the U.S. today. He IS the establishment. I mean, either propaganda is pernicious or it isn't. I just don't buy the whole "the end justifies the means" argument...

The way I see it is that MM plays by the exact same rules as the guys on the other side of the aisle. They all embelish and bend the facts to get their point across. The other guys do it under the radar though and in a subtle way whereas MM shoves it down your throat in a mainstream manner.

And he's very good at that. As a filmmaker he's very effective.

Quoted from Death Monkey Can you hook me up with a sweet deal on insurance?

Sure thing, but you have to own a plane or a helicopter  

Quoted from sniper The way I see it is that MM plays by the exact same rules as the guys on the other side of the aisle. They all embelish and bend the facts to get their point across. The other guys do it under the radar though and in a subtle way whereas MM shoves it down your throat in a mainstream manner. And he's very good at that. As a filmmaker he's very effective.

You think Fox News does it under the radar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAP4T94ZVeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHuzOdY8QsA

Notice the newsblob: "HAVE DEMOCRATS FOGOTTEN THE LESSONS OF 9/11?"

Quoted Text Sure thing, but you have to own a plane or a helicopter

I'll get right on building one!