Good Things Come… by James McClung - Short - High times on the lake hit a low point when two stoners learn a lesson about instant gratification. 10 pages - pdf format

Writer interested in feedback on this work

Hmm, I wanna be nice.  But --(SPOILERS) the whole unseen creature thing has always annoyed me.   I suppose that's no fault of your own.   Definitely a way to keep the budget down though.

My major gripe with this script is too much dialogue and a bit overwritten in parts.   Other than that, formatting is pretty spot on.

I liked how the creature is fishing.  Seems you might wanna make it a twenty instead of a one.

For some reason I was expecting a large "Merman" (Cabin in the Woods monster) to appear.

Hey James, was this a submission for Root of All Evil?  That dollar bill is pretty prominent throughout this short and it's the first thing I thought of.

That, and the force/presence reminded me of Evil Dead.

Not much else to say.  Silverback mentioned a few things I agree with -- too much dialogue, the creature "fishing."

I like that ending... sort of like that draft of Silver Bullet that Stephen King wrote... where the werewolf cracks open a beer and guzzles it down after killing the dude.

Otherwise, I wasn't really big on this one.

Thanks for reading, guys.

Indeed, this was a submission for The Root of All Evil. Big thanks to Michael for the incentive to write this and also thanks to Johnny (oJOHNNYoNUTSo) and Will (albinopenguin) for their help with the script/logline.

I knew the dialogue was going to be a point of contention. Initially, I wanted to keep the story at the lake but sort of went off in a different direction once I started thinking about the characters. I was really concerned that the amount of dialogue would take away from what's going on in the woods (and perhaps that's what's happening now) but the initial comments I received were more about the actual content of the dialogue and less about how much of it there was. Still, I tried to keep it to the point and I think there's a lot going on between the characters as far as arcs and the like are concerned so it's not completely frivolous.

I think the two scenes at Gideon's apartment could possibly be collapsed into one but other than that, I figured I'd just post the script and see what can be cut. I'm still at a point where I do most of my cutting and simplifying in rewrites as opposed to getting it right the first time.

Everything else I think chalks up to taste. I like the "unseen creature," cliche as it is. It's always worked for me, at least in the classics. I also opted not to show them for budgetary reasons. Anything more than the "finger" I expect would be cost prohibitive.

A merman would've been cool. I always liked it in Cabin in the Woods (the script and the movie). But that's for another script.

Hi James,

You've been a tremendous help to me in the past, so I hope I can pay some of that back in this post.

Like you, I am a fan of the "unseen horror" feature. I studied psych horrors at school last year and through that I developed an intense admiration for film makers who have nailed it in the past. Perhaps it seems cliche now, because it is so incredibly difficult to get right, but to me, when handled well it does the trick. Australian horror film "The Tunnel" is a fantastic display of the ambiguity that you use in this one.

I liked this. You've created some decent horrific images which would work in a film. You, in my opinion have handled the "unseen creature" quite well. You give us just enough detail to see our own monster, but not enough to ruin it. I'll admit, the "big yellow eyes" seemed a little childish. Maybe add another adjective to properly describe the terror that should be inflicted through that description. At the moment, I'm imagining a pissed off kitten... Not that scary. Other than that, the horror images created are effective and, in some places, creepy.

Where I think this short lacks is with motive and lack of detail with this unseen creature. At this point I would leave your descriptions as is, but give the creature a motive. To me, it's not clear why this creature attacks. Why it uses this specific hunting method? Clues that could give insight into these sort of details could help flesh out the screenplay, if that is what you are wanting to do. Random killing is fine and looks great on film. However, to me, it misses the mark. I usually find that when the creature has a motive it adds to the terror of the film. Maybe the creature you have described here is just territorial and doesn't want other people in it's territory? If that is the case, a reference to that would give this script a purpose, a theme and a motive for this creature killing. That's how I see it, at least. You're free to disagree.

In regards to all that conversation at the start, I'm not against it, but I do believe that it needs something else to it. The way the dialogue is written, in itself, is great. I think that the start is where you can make the most out of  potentially boring situation. If you agree with my motive suggestion, this could be where you drop the hints. That way you wouldn't drop the tension build-up in the second half of the script and you would give the audience something to think about. At the moment, I think the dialogue at the start doesn't really add much to the script at all. I wouldn't get rid of it, but I would try and drop subtle hints as far as motivation for the creature go. You would also have to somehow tie that in with the jogger at the start. Perhaps a news broadcast of her disappearance that gives quick information on her background?

This is only my opinion. If it were my scripts, I would be applying the suggestions I have given above to the rewrite. However, it's not my script, so do with it as you wish.

See you around. Good job.

Dan

Hey, James. Thought I'd check this one out.

Writing in the first page is a little start and stop if you catch my drift but it's certainly not bad. She does this, she does that, gets a little repetitive but nothing major.

"personal effects" Effects?

Not a fan of monster scripts, even though I'm co-writing one right now! But I can't say this was bad, not painfully average like most shorts in this genre and I did like the characters but the ending kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. The monster seems cool but it's just that if they're going to die in the end in classic horror fashion, the script shouldn't be so long.

There's 12 pages here, mostly of two guys rambling about this and that and I think if you really wanted to, you could cut 5 and still make the story work. The scenes with the baking and then around three scenes explaining Felix' situation when only one could suffice. It just drags on a little and when the ending doesn't correlate with the character's problem, it feels left sided. I get the money part but money doesn't seem to be Felix's problem, at least that's how it came across to me. It's more of a respect thing so when he does indeed get massacred, it just doesn't feel right.

I thought the dialogue here was good though, nicely balanced with the exposition/casualness ratio if that makes sense.

Good luck!

Hey, James,

I try not to read too much into shorts, because they are what they are... just that.  

I like scare tactics...because if they are done right, will really scare the mess out of you.  But I prefer the psychological aspect, the stuff you can't see.   I mean, and in the end, why this worked for me..."the unknown" as soon as you can see what's stalking you, you can put a name to it, and it's no longer anywhere near as frightening.  JMHO.

The dialogue, to be honest, I didn't have a problem with it.  The only thing I might have done was get Gideon and Felix to the lake quicker.  But regardless, I would have trimmed about two pages off this, but... that's just me.

Good stuff,

Ghostie

"Contrary to popular belief, I think the line between being direct and being rude is not thin, and most people are fully aware of when they have crossed it."

There's a lot of "She does this. She does that. He does this. He does that." kinda stuff going on in the description. It gets a bit repetitive, but as this is only a short, it didn't affect the read too much. But here's an example.

Quoted Text A FEMALE JOGGER (20s) makes her way down the trail. She catches a glimpse of the bill. She stops and stuffs it in her pocket.

Quoted Text She sits up and moans. She reaches down and touches her leg. She brings back blood on her fingers.

Quoted Text INT. GIDEON’S APARTMENT, LIVING ROOM - NIGHT Felix lies underneath a blanket on a couch. Several boxes of personal effects sit on the floor around him. He hits a bowl of weed and sets it on a coffee table littered with empty Red Bull cans. He returns his attention to the laptop on top of his chest and types away. Gideon, very high, leans against a nearby doorframe in boxers and a t-shirt. He eats Chef Boyardee out of the can. Southern gangsta rap thumps in the background.

This is all fine, but if Southern gangsta rap is thumping in the background, we would probably hear this at the start of the scene.

I thought the dialogue was fine between Gideon and Felix from page 2-5. It sounded natural, but all that stood out there for me was the fortune cookie bit with Gideon swallowing his fortune. They talked about the same thing pretty much (Gideon thinks Felix is a good roommate, Felix is trying to get a chef job, thinks he's being a deadbeat roommate, etc), up until they mention the lake. You can probably fit that lake bit in much sooner, cut off a page or two and get to the story quicker (w/out compromising character establishment/establishing their friendship).

Quoted Text EXT. FOREST TRAIL - DAY A missing person’s poster of the female jogger hangs from a tree trunk. A twig slips underneath it and tears it O.S.

I get what you mean, but the way it's worded, it sounds like the twig actually tearing the poster is happening O.S. Probably better off just saying "A wind gust blows the poster off the tree, out of frame" or something like that. Difficult visual to visualize (twig slipping underneath the poster and somehow tearing it... when I read twig, I picture an itty bitty piece of wood from the tree).

Some nice visuals with the dollar bill and the severed foot... digging that.

Saw some slight overwriting at parts, but nothing that hindered the read:

Quoted Text EXT. LAKE - DAY Felix and Gideon sit with their hooks in the water and pass a blunt back and forth. Felix finishes off a beer and deposits the bottle in a garbage bag beside the box. He glances inside an adjacent plastic cooler. Two plump catfish sit on ice inside.

Just some unnecessary details, everything is very exact. But if you left out some things, we'd probably get a very similar visual anyway, but quicker.

"Felix and Gideon pass a blunt back and forth, their fish hooks in the water. Felix kills a beer and tosses the bottle into a garbage bag. In a nearby cooler, two plump catfish sit on ice." They're in a boat passing a blunt, it's safe to assume they're sitting, so no need to mention that, etc. I'd probably include BOAT in the slug, too.

The dialogue between Felix and Gideon is good, but can probably be cut down as you're merely touching on the Felix being the expert cook thing (with the mac and cheese)... however, if you cut down the earlier dialogue in the apartment between them, the boat dialogue works much better.

I did like the exchange about Gideon being a lucky guy... sensing this luck comes in handy later in the story?

Quoted Text Gideon extends the lure box toward Felix. Felix takes it. Out of nowhere, he yelps and drops it into the boat. Felix stares with stoned eyes at a spot of trees beyond the shore. Gideon follows his friend’s gaze.

The jump scare would work better if:

"Gideon hands Felix the lure box. Felix catches a brief glance of something moving in the trees beyond shore -- he gasps and drops the box to the floor."

Or something like that.

Nice... dig that you didn't use that "luck" thing with Gideon... cool kill scene with the fish hook. And I thought back to the "Shit happens" fortune cookie. Good stuff.

Dig the irony, how this creature studies these guys and then mimics (as later with the beer guzzling at the end). And I LOVED how you used the dollar. A lot of the tales I've received merely have a dollar appear for a split second. But you make it relevant to the story -- not only how this creature lures these kids in, but money is an issue with Felix (through dialogue)... so it fits well.

Would have liked one of them to live though. And, I dig never showing the creature completely, though, for the end, I'd have maybe his clawed foot visible as he sits against a tree (all we see is the tree though), legs out in front of him... maybe see him extend for a nearby beer and guzzle, burp, etc.

Nevertheless, this is one of my favorite submissions for the anthology I've read so far. Right now, I'm actively pursuing more submissions -- cutting them down to 13 tales by mid February, so I'll let you know. But excellent job, man. Enjoyed this one.

-- Michael

As I go...

Although "one-dollar bill" may be technically corect, it doesn't rad well or sound good as worded.  I'd relook at it, just because it's the very opening image and you don't want to turn your readers off out of the gate.

I think by naming your female jogger, you'd do away with a number of issues in the sentences that follow.  Without a name, you're stuck with "her", "she", etc, and it reads very repetively, especially with the sentence structure you chose to use.

Although the opening is a bit unclear or lacking visual detail, I actually like it and can see it, but I have to really try and imagine exactly how this plays out.

2nd scene - a bit repetitive with box(es) being used back to back as well as the SLug xontaining kitchen and then using kitchen table right after it.

No description for Gideon?

The opening dialogue exchange doesn't work for me at all, sorry to say...reads false, a bit on the nose, and just unnecessary...or amybe uninterreting.

The new scene on page 3 just doesn't sem to be worded, or presented correctly.  You say Felix lies underneath a blanket on the couch, then we find out there's a laptop on his chest he's typing on.  Gideon's very detailed description doesn't seem to have any place in this throwaway scene.  And then, we find out that "Southern gangsta rap" plays, which is something we'd be aware of immediately - WTF is SOuthern Gangsta Rap, anyway?  

Dialogue excahnge that follows again doesn't flow naturally for me at all.  Either some of the words are out of place or I'd say it needs to be rethought completely.

Also, IMO, the dialogue excahnges so far are overblown, overly long, and not at all interesting, and I can't quite put my finger on why that is, but that's how I feel.

Page 4 - new scene - as said earlier, I really think you need to name the missing jogger as it will help here too.  Also, I don't quite understand about the twig slipping underneath it and ripping it OS - if it's OS, how do we know what's happening?

"jeep" - "Jeep"

Page 5 - I like the severed foot visuals - nicely done!  Impending doom working well.

"A dollar bill..." - much better this way.  I'd rewrite the opening to read this way.

Page 6 - James, for some reason, the dialogue exahnges aren't working for me at all.  Just really dull conversation about stuff that doesn't have anything to do with anything and also doesn't give either Protag any real life.  They both seem very...uh...dull, I guess is the best word I can come up with.

Page 7 - Don't like the "PRESENCE P.O.V." - reads very awkwardly and just doesn't seem to stay in line with how this tale is being told.

Page 8 - typo - "...right a catch one..." - a should be I, I assume.

I think you cold work a much more effective scare with the yellow eyes thing and the dialogue that follows.  As written, not effective at all, IMO.

Page 10 - typo - "...lets a rip" - ????

"Said eyes..." - very, VERY awkwardly phrased - rewrite!

I was really hoping this wouldn't be another cliche creature fishing idea, but it appears to be.  I don't know about you, but I've read this story and seen this short film many times over the years.  The fact that you chose an actual hook and line is a little odd, IMO, as I just don't see that working.

His "septum ring"?  As in nose ring?  Did we know he wore one?  I don't think so, and obviously, it's a very important detail that was neglected early on.

Last line on Page 10 is also awkwardly written - almost as if his knees disappear.

Not a fan of the finale eitehr, sorry to say.

I love the premise, but I've seen this way too many times and the filler here isn't engaging, nor are the characters.  It also sems like maybe you wrote this quickly, as much of the sentence structure is very basic and dull.

I wish I cuold be more positive but maybe I just expect more out of you, James, as I know you're a great writer and storyteller.  This one's not for me, sorry to say.

Take care, bro.

I don't like this. I found myself bored reading it. The story lacks flow, which is unusual for you James. The characters chatting goes on for too long, the dollar bill is never fully explained as far as I can tell.

I know there was a comp' somewhere where a dollar bill had to be in the story and I'm guessing that this was hastily written for that. Not your best work, mate.

For me the problem was a lack of ups and downs in the character arc. I did like the steady crumbling of Felix's resolve, and I think it was well handled, but it was that, steady, rather than having any dynamism to it. For so small of a character arc to carry this page count is not inherently a problem to me, but it becomes a problem if the stakes don't really change that much. Once they were out, I guess, I would have liked to see something stronger pushing Felix back towards being responsible, and similarly, to see Gideon having a less stable relationship to that change. I guess what I'm saying is that I think there is more room to push the conflicts already in here, without losing the pleasant quietness of the short as a whole.

As well you are correct that the two scenes in Gideon's apartment should be one.

Overall I would enjoy watching this, but I wouldn't revisit unless there were a bit more to be gotten out of Felix's story.

One more thing to throw out, James...

For me, everything played out exactly as one would expect it to, with no survivors and no real reason for al the cooking and other friends banter, that we never saw.

It's just too linear, with no surprises, and no conflict, so to say.  Our 2 Protags, chat about one's recent loss of job, and getting out to enjoy teh nice weather.  then, they go fishing to a place that we know someone recently got killed, spend the day fishing and talking abotu making dinner for friends with their "catch", get back to land, and both get killed, rather quickly.  And that's basiclly it.

If nothing else, IMO, 1 of these 2 dudes needs to eitehr live or at least put up a fight, so we're unsure how it's going to end.

So as not to leave anyone hanging...

A lot of feedback here. Sorry not to have gotten back to everyone sooner. I've been working on this, the OWC, and preparing for a trip tomorrow among other things. I'd like to get back to everyone individually at some point but for now, I'll leave you with something more general.

The general consensus seems to be that the script is too long for what it is and that there's too much dialogue. I totally agree.

So... I'll be posting a rewrite soon. I've already knocked the script down two whole pages since I received the first few comments here. The majority of the cuts were dialogue, mainly from the first three scenes, which have since been condensed to two (I kept the kitchen scene for the fortune cookie bit alone; all the exposition comes in the living room). I've also made some cuts to the descriptions and fixed some of the minor nitpicks that've been brought up here (e.g. "A twig... tears it O.S."). There were a couple lines I cut that didn't affect the page count in anyway but will hopefully still quicken the pacing a little bit.

There've been no major changes to the story or characters as of yet, such as a motive for the creature or making Felix's situation more relevant to what happens in the end. I still need to mull these over some. I may post the new draft as a strictly condensed version of what's already here while I try to figure all that out. I use Dropbox now. I figure one of the benefits of that is you can post the quick tweaks right away while you work on the bigger things.

Also, I can see why this would seem like there's not much to it. My approach was less story-oriented and more of the classic setup/payoff that's used in a lot of shorts. I guess with both guys getting killed off at the end, the setup seems kind of irrelevant.

The idea was that basically the whole time, these guys are trying to do everything without having to work for it. Felix wants to wait until he's got a stable situation to go have fun and also uses a worm to fish instead of one of Felix's lures. Gideon's only interested in instant gratification and through the course of the story, he totally corrupts his friend.

In the end, they both get killed. The idea was they're being punished for their cutting corners. My favorite bit of irony here is that the tree creatures are basically waiting patiently on shore until these guys come back and inevitably take the bait laid out for them. The idea was to use a sort of Aesop's Fable/parable structure for the story. Perhaps there's a better way to end it all though.

Unfortunately, it probably wasn't the best idea to use waiting, an inherently un-cinematic concept, as a theme for the story here. Admittedly, I think most Aesop's Fables have a lot more going on than this one. I don't know.

Will get back to you guys in more detail when I can. In the mean time, I'm hoping a tighter script will make this go down at least a little better.

So obviously I read an earlier draft of this screenplay. Therefore, I mainly concentrated on the dialogue. It's much better this draft. However, there's a few bits here and there that could be tweaked. This time around, I realized that the first scene between Gideon and Felix is pretty much unnecessary (except for the chinese food). I think I liked the set up in the first draft better. Furthermore, I would change Felix's reaction to Gideon being a good luck charm. Instead of flat out calling him a good luck charm, why not have him show a tinge of resentment for being so lucky? I don't know, I might even changed the dynamics on the boat. Felix wants to leave the entire time because he needs to get back to the job hunt. Just think a bit more conflict might do you well (plus say something more at the end).

Regardless, I still dig the concept and like the ending. I don't want to get too in depth since you're writing another draft. Let me know once you post it.

Hey James;

Not a big gore fan... but I gave this a go based on the logline.

I read some of the other posts as well, including yours... going into depth about all the various elements of the story that do, and do not work, so I'm not going to inject any more complication, until you plow through all the other feedback.

I will say, however, you nearly lost me in the middle somewhere... but I kept going... heads up, the ending made me want to puke <-- read that as awesome.

You have a very graphic, clever use of adjectives that makes 'dying' at the hands of these... whatever they are, somewhere between cool, and disgusting... if that makes any sense what so ever.

Regardless, whatever you do to this script... keep the maul scenes intact... they're freakishly disturbing.

Take care...

New draft is up. The material's about the same but the script is two pages shorter. I also removed a few lines here and there that did not affect the page count but will contribute to a breezier read regardless. Hopefully this one is a little easier going down.

Been thinking about it and I agree that there needs to be a little more dynamics between the two characters. Indeed, Felix's arc is too steady and easy.

I've been trying to work on incorporating the monsters more into the story so it's not just two guys talking the whole time but that's proving sort of difficult at the moment. The idea is that the monsters are actually the trees so it's not like they can get up and run after these guys (at least not without making a huge racket). I'm toying with the idea of the guys maybe hooking some body parts in the water and freaking out but not to the point that they'd freak out and leave immediately, which seems to be the most logical thing to do, really.

Rewriting my OWC entry (which I didn't enter) at the moment but hoping to come back to this one at some point after with a better sense of direction.

Nice new draft.  Definitely breezier, Jimmy.

I like the exchanges between Felix/Gideon this time around.  Feels like there's a point to their dialogue.

I can tell you have tried incorporating the dread more.  It's noticeable.

You should definitely go with the idea of one of the guys reeling in a body part.  How nuts would that be?  


--Steve

Hey James,

I checked this out before the OWC, but held off posting for the new draft.

I might not have mentioned it at first, but something about your opening passage tripped my brain up both times. I think it happens here:

“She stops, stuffs it in her sweats’ pocket, and returns to her jog.”

At this point I wasn’t quite sure where she was in relation to the tree. Right next to it? A few paces off? But the line skipped over both of those questions and the bill just appeared in her hand. Other than that niggle, the writing was good though.

You did a good job condensing the opening dialogue, but there are two further suggestions I would make.

1) I think the fortune cookie bit should come at the end of the scene instead of the beginning. I’d be more impactful to have those fortunes be the very last note played before we switch to the forest.

2) I found it interesting that you said the whole story originally took place at the lake, because my initial thought is all of this set-up could be handled in the SUV on the way to the lake. You can have them eating Chinese and smoking weed in the SUV. I get the impression they are a little slobbish, you could transplant that mess to the backseat of the car. And finally you have him on the computer, which spurs dialogue about his job. In the SUV, he could be checking his email for responses to his applications by using his phone. This could prompt him to express similar doubts as to whether he should even be on this trip.

I thought the kills were well drawn, and the monster guzzling beer is funny twist, but to me their actions don’t seem bad enough to warrant their comeuppance (even in a ‘movie-morality’ type way).

Cause it sounds like Felix has applied to a bunch of places. It sounds like he has been pretty worried and doing something about it. And all he’s really done is spent one day going fishing while he waits to hear from the places he’s applied to. The guy can’t have one day of fishing until he gets a new job?

To be honest, with a dollar bill being used as bait, I would’ve pinned the likely theme as greed. Maybe you didn’t want to go the easy route, but I think that image is going to have a hard time being effective in a context outside of greed. So what might this look like if we succumb to that?

Maybe Felix and Gideon aren’t just out there to fish. Maybe they are waiting for some people (or a person) they are supposed to sell drugs to. Or maybe Felix has arranged this so he can make rent, but Gideon has no idea about it. Let’s say that Felix knows this buyer is staying in a cabin in the woods and after the day passes with no one showing up, Felix decides to drag himself and Gideon deeper into the woods to find him.

I think this would better earn Felix’s fate. I’d have a much clearer sense of how Felix’s impatience contributed to his death, and as for Gideon…well, shit happens.

Anyway, just spitballin’ here. I like the ‘unseen creature’ angle and I wouldn’t really need much more from that aspect of the story. Others might disagree.

Good luck with it,
Eric

Quoted from Guest Nice new draft.  Definitely breezier, Jimmy. I like the exchanges between Felix/Gideon this time around.  Feels like there's a point to their dialogue. I can tell you have tried incorporating the dread more.  It's noticeable. You should definitely go with the idea of one of the guys reeling in a body part.  How nuts would that be?   --Steve

Thanks, man.

I did make a few small embellishments but you'd be surprised how little was actually *added* to this draft. Honestly, I think condensing the writing, especially the dialogue, allowed the horror elements to breath and stand out more. Either way, I think I've struck the proper pace this time around or am at least getting close.

Indeed, I've come up with some ideas for incorporating (a few) more body parts in the next draft. They're subtle but I think they'll work quite nicely and don't require any major upsets that would throw the story off course. I think if I can pull them off, they'll ratchet up the tension even more and ultimately add some more flavor and fun to the story. My aim is to do so whilst still keeping the budget and page length around where it is now.

Thanks for the read, Eric.

Quoted from EWall433 I might not have mentioned it at first, but something about your opening passage tripped my brain up both times. I think it happens here: “She stops, stuffs it in her sweats’ pocket, and returns to her jog.” At this point I wasn’t quite sure where she was in relation to the tree. Right next to it? A few paces off? But the line skipped over both of those questions and the bill just appeared in her hand. Other than that niggle, the writing was good though.

"She stops by the tree, stuffs the bill in her pocket, and returns to her jog."

How's that sound?

Quoted from EWall433 1) I think the fortune cookie bit should come at the end of the scene instead of the beginning. I’d be more impactful to have those fortunes be the very last note played before we switch to the forest.

I don't know. Wouldn't that sort of come out of nowhere? I'll think it over, I suppose, but people seem to like having that information when the ending comes around. I also think the beer wraps things up in a nice succinct way.

Quoted from EWall433 2) I found it interesting that you said the whole story originally took place at the lake, because my initial thought is all of this set-up could be handled in the SUV on the way to the lake. You can have them eating Chinese and smoking weed in the SUV. I get the impression they are a little slobbish, you could transplant that mess to the backseat of the car. And finally you have him on the computer, which spurs dialogue about his job. In the SUV, he could be checking his email for responses to his applications by using his phone. This could prompt him to express similar doubts as to whether he should even be on this trip.

Will consider. I mean, obviously, they can't have the conversation they have now in the SUV. That is to say they can't argue the merits of going to the lake *whilst* going to the lake. But perhaps a few tweaks here and there could kick off the story a little faster and more to the point. Let me mull it over a little bit.

Quoted from EWall433 I thought the kills were well drawn, and the monster guzzling beer is funny twist, but to me their actions don’t seem bad enough to warrant their comeuppance (even in a ‘movie-morality’ type way). Cause it sounds like Felix has applied to a bunch of places. It sounds like he has been pretty worried and doing something about it. And all he’s really done is spent one day going fishing while he waits to hear from the places he’s applied to. The guy can’t have one day of fishing until he gets a new job?

The idea wasn't so much that Felix is punished for taking a day off. Rather that he's punished for adopting Gideon's way of thinking, which is always trying to get something for nothing. I agree, it's a stretch. But I think the tone's too light to really be damning Felix's character all that much in that regard. There are still the elements of "shit happens" and "wrong place at the wrong time" that play into Felix's fate as well.

Quoted from EWall433 To be honest, with a dollar bill being used as bait, I would’ve pinned the likely theme as greed. Maybe you didn’t want to go the easy route, but I think that image is going to have a hard time being effective in a context outside of greed. So what might this look like if we succumb to that?

Greed was definitely the main concept for Michael's anthology and the jumping off for this story. But like I said earlier, I sort of drifted away from it slightly through the development process. I think what the two characters display here is a type of greed, albeit not necessarily of money. Again though, it's a bit of a stretch.

It's a good point, man. As of your review, I'm bouncing around a few ideas to work the more blatant greed angle into the story so the dollar has a more resonant meaning. The tricky part is making it succinct but effective so as not to throw the rest of the story off course. I think I've got a good thing with the length and the pacing at this point. I'd like to stay on track with that as I try to incorporate new ideas.

Thanks again, man. Appreciate it. Sorry if I come off like a contrarian. Not my intention.

Hey James -

Gave this one a look (I didn't read anything from the Root of All Evil OWC.  It was an OWC, right?)

First the cons, THEN the pros. Then a few quick suggestions.

I felt the script (descriptives and dialogues) were still pretty rough.  They lacked a lyrical flow that I like to see in scripts, that really pull me into the story.  A bit of red lining, a tightening and a polish would certainly help with that.  It's stylistic stuff, which is a pretty easy fix. Questions and a thought: what the heck is a Skrillix haircut?  And while I know what a septum is, "nose-ring" would probably be a more user-friendly description IMO.  Also, the jogger's death could've gone on a bit longer.  I'd rather have seen that strung out a few lines more, and the boys' fishing dialogue reduced a touch in the balance.

The pros: I LOVE the visuals.  Nothing wrong with a bit of well placed, visually effective gore.  I particularly liked the matted hair on the dollar bill, the ripped jugular followed by the nose ring rip. Admittedly, that would have to be one hell of a strong fishing hook, but I'm purposely overlooking that.

My biggest suggestion?  That you somehow tie the ending more organically into the rest of the story.  For me, the ending fell flat because I expected to get some sort of moralistic tie-in with the dollar bill, or the fortune cookie.  And it really didn't.  If you can pull those together - AND keep the good visual stuff in there, then you'll really have something.  This has potential to do that.  It just needs that clincher to wrap it all up satisfactorily...!

Cheers,

--Me

Thanks for the read, Janet.

Quoted from wonkavite I didn't read anything from the Root of All Evil OWC.  It was an OWC, right?

It was not an OWC. It's a collaborative project Michael (Kospiah) is putting together and has been taking submissions for. Good Things Come... is one such submission.

Quoted from wonkavite I felt the script (descriptives and dialogues) were still pretty rough.  They lacked a lyrical flow that I like to see in scripts, that really pull me into the story.  A bit of red lining, a tightening and a polish would certainly help with that.  It's stylistic stuff, which is a pretty easy fix.

I think I see what you're getting at. Any particular suggestions? Also, not sure what you mean by "red lining."

Quoted from wonkavite Questions and a thought: what the heck is a Skrillix haircut?  And while I know what a septum is, "nose-ring" would probably be a more user-friendly description IMO.

A Skrillex haircut is long hair with one side (not completely half) shaved as popularized by dubstep artist Skrillex. There's not really a name for it other than "Skrillex hair." I considered whether or not the reference might be too obscure but both Skrillex and his haircut are increasingly popular nowadays and in any case, a quick Google search clears it up.

I thought it was a nice touch. Same with the septum ring. A simple nose ring wouldn't be quite the same. I like to have at least a little food for thought in my scripts.

Quoted from wonkavite Also, the jogger's death could've gone on a bit longer.  I'd rather have seen that strung out a few lines more, and the boys' fishing dialogue reduced a touch in the balance.

Duly noted.

Quoted from wonkavite My biggest suggestion?  That you somehow tie the ending more organically into the rest of the story.  For me, the ending fell flat because I expected to get some sort of moralistic tie-in with the dollar bill, or the fortune cookie.  And it really didn't.  If you can pull those together - AND keep the good visual stuff in there, then you'll really have something.  This has potential to do that.  It just needs that clincher to wrap it all up satisfactorily...!

I'm working on it. I'm definitely trying to make the dollar bill more significant metaphorically speaking. It's the element that ties all the other ROAE stories together so naturally, it deserves to stand out.

I'm thinking about the fortune cookies as well but I'm pleased with how some people have been applying the fortunes to the ending. I always like to have some elements open to interpretation. I also think the fortunes make good intros for the characters and people don't forget about them when the stories over so hopefully that means they have some sort of resonance.

Then again, that could just be a total copout. I'll mull it over for sure. I do think the ending needs a little extra something and one of the next steps for me is to give it that.

Thanks again! Currently about two thirds into Bittersweet. Will post a review within the next few days.

James,

I have to agree with a lot of what has been said.  I think the monster concept is intriguing, but there is a sluggishness to the story line that I blame on Felix and Gideon.

They're slackers, true. That alone doesn't mean they should die. It seems they are just too stupid to live. But wasn't that the complaint against annoying teens getting killed at summer camp, way back when?
I think these dudes are somewhat flat characters because you've already decided they are dead meat.

They don't feel fully formed, their character arcs undeveloped. Personally, I never abandoned Felix. I was rooting for him to make a come back.You tell us Felix is an out-of-work cook, that's fine. More importantly I learned from the early pages that he wants to work, he wants to take responsibility, but he's weak, easily manipulated, insecure, naive, a stoner and maybe girlfriend-less.
Great, those are character flaws.

Felix then has a chance to step up, take charge, offer resistance when the monster comes calling.  Give him a fishing pole, some balls and a purpose — he's hero material.  Rather than focusing on his unemployment, shift the focus to fishing. Maybe he's a slacker who too often escapes to the lake — where he's a darn good fisherman.
I can see the makings of an interesting confrontation. Human angler vs. Monster fishing for food.

Why not dangle the dollar bill on the lake? If the monsters can snatch victims from a forest trail, why can't they cast a lure out to the lake, for the fishermen?  

I'm a little curious about this monster(s).  The yellow eyes and trees don't seem to go together. Makes me think of a Disneyland attraction. Instead,  i kind of envision an entity like PREDATOR, who hang out in the trees. as I'm sure you remember.  But trees with eyes, not sure about that?
Someone mentioned the monster's motives.  I wondered that, too. What is their purpose?
Fishing solely for food?  Food and trophies?

in scene one, when the jogger is first snatched, was the dollar and a piece of her leg ripped from pocket? If so, then how could she get snapped up a second time since the hook/dollar had been removed?  

some offerings:

On page 3 you have a scene with a missing person's poster, and the SUV whizzing past.  Maybe you can use this opp to give us another sampling of a monster attack. Such as, the park ranger is hammering the poster to a tree, next to about 5 other missing persons fliers, when WHOOSH. He gets whipped out of the scene. And aool of his posters float to the ground like falling leaves.

Instead of Jerome and Gabby, the guys could be meeting 2 girls at the lake. And the girls could be appetizers for the monsters. Another monster opp.

Maybe the dollar bills are actually tree leaves that mimic money. This would give the monsters an infinite amount of bait and tell us that they are pretty advanced predators. Like carnivorous plants, they have evolved in a way that makes them self-sufficient.

Something here reminds me a bit of "Day of the Triffids," a story about plant spores that fall to earth and take root. At first they appear harmless, but as they grow in size and in appetite, they became mobile. Mobile manhunters. The kicker here is that the creatures have a way to blind their victims in the most innocuous, but spectacular way imaginable. But I digress.

If you want to justify why Gideon and Felix are worthless pieces of meat, all you have to do is throw in some careless roadkill en route to the lake. And them not giving a deer's antler about it.

Just my own morbid wishes, but I'd like to see a scene where body parts are raining from the tree branches, into the lake. Maybe the monsters are ridding themselves of the excess. Kind of a funny thought here: dumping human remains in a lake.

I guess that's enough to chew on. It seems you are married to a particular story, but I hope you give thought to your main characters.  Good luck.

Thanks for the read, Abe.

I hope you don't mind if I respond generally, as you've graciously thrown a lot of suggestions my way. It seems your bottom line is to work on the characters and that in a sense, they lead to a dead end, both story-wise, arc-wise, and of course, the fact that they're eaten by carnivorous trees.

I'm thinking of giving the story a major overhaul, making Felix a more dynamic character, and perhaps having him escape in the end. I wasn't too fond with that idea at first but the more I've thought about it, the more it seems not so bad a choice. I mean, he is indeed sort of flat at this point but I do like where he's coming from.

Gideon, I'd like to keep him the way he is. I do like that he's sort of a devilish aura of laziness, apathy, and corner cutting. I mean, at the beginning of the story, the characters are poised as opposites, which could make for some interesting dynamics. But perhaps the story doesn't live up to that.

The monsters, I'd like to keep the way they are. I mean, I love the idea of trees fishing for people. I don't know why. I just love it. And I think there's a way to make it work.

I mean, admittedly, it's an ass stupid concept. It really is. But that's the fun. Someone recently compared the story to Creepshow; that's an apt comparison, I would say. If you think too hard about it, of course, it's going to come apart.

Also, the bottom line is I wanted to write something that fit with the tone Michael had established for this anthology. I wrote my own thing, to an extent, but this is still his project, first and foremost, and I wanted to make mine a cohesive work.

The character dynamics and the plot still need some work though. No doubt. I'm working on coming up with a more direct, dynamic, and satisfying stream of events for the rewrite. And I appreciate the suggestions.

Thanks again.

Hey James,

You give a lot of reads to people; so, I was interested about your scripts. "The alchemist..." was a little bit long for me by now. Curious long for a short at all, but maybe I check in next time...

I'm distanced when it comes to loglines, concerning meanings and so on. Not much interested in it. So, I can say it in an unexcitedly way: best so far. Perfect for whatever it's worth.


Okay, the play:

It's very hard for me to give this feedback and I have a lot to think about how to deliver the best feedback I can here; because it's complicated. You'll see.

I love the Predator for several reasons: It has no visual shape and it represents the supernaturalism at best. Especially I like that the predator has no system of values; I even can't be angry with it for being the hunter it is. It's everything we have no imagination where it's coming from and for whom or what it acts.

Your introduction by showing him as a force was fine. I liked the shot when we see the boat from the POV. I would let the yellow eyes (only the eyes) appear from nothingness, like: when the Pred. focuses something the eyes become visible.
That would be a great image. Also, I would cut its physical appearance with the hook, I mean as it carries the beer after the killing and
maybe the hook at all is just important for finishing Gideon stylish; that shouldn't be.

The hook in the dollar isn't perfect. And Gideon should have seen the blood when the bill flattered around for such a long time.

A better option for killing in this way would be if Gideon has a fishhook which hangs out of his pants pocket and the "force" lifts it up into his nose ring.

Another tiny thing: Wasn't the corpse of the jogger at the place where they brought the boat to sea? If so, Gideon chooses an uncomfortable place to pee. He should have given a reaction to the smell. Hope I didn't read over.

The part between, the MONSTER sees the guys, and Felix finally sees the yellow eyes, is too long. You lose a bit of suspense here.

P2/3 is overwritten.

On p1 I disliked these lines:  

FELIX
Gideon, did you just eat your
fortune?

I wouldn't let him call Gideon by name + he shouldn't be surprised of his friend's behavior like that. They know each other. Think about how often a friend surprises you like that, in such a kind of unimportant way which will "lead you to comment that in a way Felix does here". Gideon isn't out of his role, who he is, not, so why is Felix surprised, replys what Gideon just has done.

If you feel you're right in the characterization and it should show up Felix as a guy who talks eloquent up to stuffy around (which is surely possible) it's the wrong time to START with that (so early).  A too complex context in opposite to the risk of getting misunderstood by readers .

Out of the fact that you don't need the fortune cookies, he should just say sth like:  "Tastes good, your fortune?" or better even nothing.

Okay, I hope that you can comprehend the long speech about the two lines, because that reflects the points where I see the script's problems.

I'm half and half about both young men. I guess you wanted to bring some color inside the script and present some extraordinary unique characters. It's right, but the approach isn't enough. I have doubts about both of them.

I like to watch them, but have still doubts. And from what I know about stories, doubts means that there's something wrong.


Felix: is pale, he wears glasses, has a Skrillex haircut, drives a SUV, goes fishing, smokes weed, drinks beer, he's cook.

Gideon: overweight, pierced through the nose and does the same stuff as Felix. He looks up/leans a bit on to Felix, because they mainly talk about things concerning Felix's life.

I got no prejudices against those people; I mean especially in case of their outer main characteristics SKRILLEX HAIRCUT and PIERCED SECTRUM.

I think to know that those guys go with trends. They separate themselves from the "normal one's" but at least it's just a trend, most times, which they live up.

There's nothing wrong about that. And maybe you write here out of some personal experiences with such people. So, they might be authentic.

I, for myself, already had my doubts since the fortune cookies thing. That Gideon eats the paper is self-ironic and bovine in case of humor. A guy who really wants to separate himself AND SHOWS UP that he reflects life, others and everything by piercing his nose... You know,... that's an Understatement, which is fine. Then he shouldn't eat paper like an (idiot).

The skrillex, glasses guy gives an outer impression as if he's introverted. But he's chatting all the time, does all the thing I mentioned, cooking, smoking...

Why is he pale when he goes out for fishing? Why does his friend has to eat bad food out of a tin when he's a chef cook?

I remembered their look when these guys were sitting in the boat and remembered precisely HOW THEY REALLY LOOK. Yeah, it was different, but I was between a nodding smile and shaking my head in disbelief.


It felt very hard to explain what I mean and I hope it's coming something through. I could write a lot more of those things. Hope this delivers my point enough.


I think you know what you are doing with both of them. These alternative characters are completely deliberated. Just...
The risk you go with their characterization has to be developed believable by 100%, not less, and as unassailable as an easy characterization of stereotypes would have to.
The bonus is only there when it's to the point.

Take your worth out of my impressions. If you think they're useful in any case, try to find the answer where my doubts are based on. I don't know it. It's too complicated. As I said it's still interesting and I LIKE it very much that they're different. I hope you recognize enough that I try to help you to bring out the great potential of your still unique characters on the Screen in the best way.


I guess,

Just a guess- it could be something in their physical description:

I could imagine Felix more with dreadlocks (mirrors his lust for life as he is, shows more stability, a different kind of stability).

And Gideon, perhaps as a pierced but fashion-conscious person(damn alternative, fresh and unique for my taste).

Maybe it's just the lead, Felix, which is wrong in that case...?

Or, for sure, on the other side, the problem could be in their behavior and not on the surface . In the little facets of interactions. I don't know...



The scene composition is good. The Predator theme with a lot of distraction about cooking... too. Tidy up some dialogues.

The courage of doing such a risky choice of characters brings up a lot of work. It pays out for the audience. Keep an eye on your anti-stereotypes and learn, master their development and you have a screaming trademark which jumps out of the page, in my eyes. A very attractive one. Nevertheless, hard work to do so.

It was interesting. The ambition is welcome. New things=always good, I guess

Thanks for the read, dude.

I get the bit about the fortune cookie. The line reads false in the sense that these guys know each other and have probably lost the ability to surprise each other, for the most part.

As for the rest... I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Are you saying the look of the characters contradicts their behavior? I think that's your point but I can't really tell the way you've phrased everything. You said yourself it's hard to explain but I could definitely use the clarification.

In any case, I think you're reading too much into some things. The characters aren't trying to separate themselves from "normal" tends, for one thing; that's just their style. Not sure I've written anything to infer they're deliberately counterculture or anything. And besides, I don't think most people who move within alternative culture circles even think about things that way; they just like what they like.

Also the little things like a pale Felix going fishing or Gideon eating Chef Boyarde when his friend is a chef... definitely a stretch. Even if these guys are homebodies, which I would say they are, that doesn't mean they can't go out every once in a while. And just because Felix is a chef doesn't mean he's going to cook for his friends all the time or that his friends would have a higher taste in cuisine or something.

I think the biggest misconception is that Felix is introverted. You're actually the second person to bring this up. Is he introverted because he wants to get a job? That's nonsense. The way I look at it, it's crunch time for him. There's plenty of weed smokers out there who still know when they have to put their business caps on. Felix even says something to the effect that if he's going to cut loose, he wants to have work out of the way.

In any case, I'm glad you notice these things. I do try to incorporate small touches like the Skrillex haircut to add some flavor to what I write. They're certainly not essential but a nice touch and offer up ideas that producers can take or leave if they want to. They're food for thought, if anything.

Anyway, not sure what is going to happen to this one except that it needs a significant overall. I'd like to shift the focus of the script from the characters more towards the horror elements, ideally striking a balance between the two. Working on a feature at the moment so we'll see what happens, I expect.

Thanks again, man.

Your quote: "I do try to incorporate small touches like the Skrillex haircut to add some flavor to what I write. They're certainly not essential ..."

For me they are. And those kind of completely wrong decisions in case of storytelling, too.

Sorry, we seem to have no base to talk here. I could quote everything you told, justified, defended whatever... in the last comment- but we're too far away, not worth to argue out of such different ranges.

why:
Here is a quote of mine: "It felt very hard to explain what I mean and I hope it's coming something through. I could write a lot more of those things. Hope this delivers my point enough."

I throw one of these things, which I even didn't mention, in here. It's also very contradictory, but the whole fine tuning seems to be not getting through to you:
A fisher isn't pale. I don't know much about fishing, but it goes for hours. And if you do it only 2-3 times in summer than you are tanned in the face till winter. Maybe he picks a hat on his Skrillex haircut. Why not. Must look funny.

There are enough points already mentioned which are same and at least more sensitive than this obviously point. Maybe I didn't told you tgis one because the points I used feel more important from a sensitive view on the characters- another misconception

I don't think only such superficial points are the only necessary one's to think about, IT'S A MIX OF ALL THE THINGS I MENTIONED... Don't try to find out... as you said, "it's crunch time for him"

Yes, you're right, it is a big misconception. Sorry for that, but as I said, there's no further base for me here... Let me know if I should delete my comment. I wasn't sure if I should answer anymore. It's a lose lose situation. I don't want to make you or anybody feel uncomfortable. I'll leave here and move on-

CU

Quoted from PrussianMosby Yes, you're right, it is a big misconception. Sorry for that, but as I said, there's no further base for me here... Let me know if I should delete my comment. I wasn't sure if I should answer anymore. It's a lose lose situation. I don't want to make you or anybody feel uncomfortable. I'll leave here and move on-

No need to delete the comment. Not a lose lose situation; I like to hear what people think, whatever it is. You certainly didn't make me feel uncomfortable in any way. Was just confused as to how your original post was worded is all. No worries.